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AnonSpore posted:CvS2 had hilarious voices in general. YOU CANNOT...ESCAPE...WRONG DEF. Geese Howard owns. But yeah, CvS 2 had some great announcer lines. Nothing like hearing him ramble on with TRUE LOVE MAKIN' playing in the background.
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Dec 3, 2013 01:33
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PunkBoy posted:YOU CANNOT...ESCAPE...WRONG DEF. Geese Howard owns. I heard it as "long death" for the longest time, so he wasn't gonna just kill ya, he was gonna make you suffer, too.
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Dec 3, 2013 01:40
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EDIT: duh, same discussion, wrong thread.
Dias fucked around with this message at 01:55 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 01:51
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Ghostpilot posted:Unless I'm mistaken, fighters using 3D models as opposed to sprites prevents the use of GGPO due to its implementation of rollback netcode. Based on that it seems that the fighters that GGPO would be applicable to these days would be in the minority. I wrote an effortpost a while ago that tried to explain what the main issues were that I'll try to track down. The tldr version was that its both easier, and harder than people think it is. Main issue is that the game engine needs to be built with it explicitly in mind. Emulated games get around this because you can easily "save state" just by dumping the full memory representation of the game with reasonable size / performance for most arcade games, and this is almost certainly not possible for any modern native game. e: found my previous post: http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3433271&userid=129998#post414730766 It doesn't answer your question directly, but there are some relevant points. In particular, the links at the end are good reads for anyone interested in some more details of rollback based netcode. animatorZed fucked around with this message at 04:16 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 04:12
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PunkBoy posted:YOU CANNOT...ESCAPE...WRONG DEF. Geese Howard owns. Started the round with a sneaky surprise attack! CvS2 is still my favorite fighting game, partly for this reason.
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Dec 3, 2013 04:29
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HoboWithAShotgun posted:Best Ryu UK. Okay, this is hilarious. I can feel the frustration just watching Rufus play. And the announcers are just completely incredulous.
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Dec 3, 2013 04:37
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KOF XIII: Steam Edition is 15 bucks right now http://store.steampowered.com/app/222940/
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Dec 3, 2013 04:46
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So for anyone who ordered the fight stick deal from namco on black friday, did anyone get a notice saying one or more of your items have been changed out. We are replacing it with an item of equal cost?
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Dec 3, 2013 04:51
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:So for anyone who ordered the fight stick deal from namco on black friday, did anyone get a notice saying one or more of your items have been changed out. We are replacing it with an item of equal cost? Nothing on SRK or anything. I don't know what else they could replace the stick with, it's the only stick they sell on their site. Unless they give you a SCV Madcatz stick.
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Dec 3, 2013 05:03
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PLANES CURE TOWERS posted:Nothing on SRK or anything. I don't know what else they could replace the stick with, it's the only stick they sell on their site. Unless they give you a SCV Madcatz stick. Which would suck because I already own that stick. I checked the package weight and it was 10lbs so I think I'm fine. They probably just swapped the game.
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Dec 3, 2013 05:08
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:Which would suck because I already own that stick. I checked the package weight and it was 10lbs so I think I'm fine. They probably just swapped the game. Yeah, I would think so. Swapping out the stick would be pretty loving dick of them.
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Dec 3, 2013 05:10
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ManSeriesBrofist posted:So for anyone who ordered the fight stick deal from namco on black friday, did anyone get a notice saying one or more of your items have been changed out. We are replacing it with an item of equal cost? I got the same email and googling the product number they give you, it brings up a thread in srk from 2012, guy says the same thing, with the same text I received in the email, and a few days later says he received the package, stick inside. So all is good, I guess? http://forums.shoryuken.com/discussion/161195/namco-te-s-club-namco-cookyness is the thread in question.
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Dec 3, 2013 05:13
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PLANES CURE TOWERS posted:Yeah, I would think so. Swapping out the stick would be pretty loving dick of them. Yeah, I'm pretty sure they won't let me return the games due to the sale either if the one they gave me I didn't like. Either that or get ready to learn the poo poo out of some Naruto fighting game.
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Dec 3, 2013 05:13
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They're replacing the stick with 150 bucks worth of Tekken Revolution credit
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Dec 3, 2013 06:04
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It would be really weird if they replaced the stick given the specific availability of 1000 individually numbered items. On that note I'm excited as hell to jump into the new Soul Calibur & TTT.
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Dec 3, 2013 06:08
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Gutcruncher posted:They're replacing the stick with 150 bucks worth of Tekken Revolution credit Yeah my PS3's internet crapped out for some reason I never figured out, so that would probably be the biggest gut punch ever.
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Dec 3, 2013 06:41
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJhyRhq7AAE Injustice good for one thing at least.
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Dec 3, 2013 13:43
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HoboWithAShotgun posted:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJhyRhq7AAE This is amazing... the expression Wonder Woman makes is so 
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Dec 3, 2013 17:51
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I picked up Divekick and I'm shocked how a parody game made me remember how good this genre was even though I haven't played in a decade. I tried SF4 with a 360 controller but I can't even do a fireball motion without jumping half the time. Are there any controllers with good D-pads? (For comparison, used to play A3/CvS2 on PS2) I don't suppose there is such a thing as a budget stick? I had a look through the stickied SRK thread and its not really aimed at someone who at a casual level.
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Dec 3, 2013 18:34
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Senethro posted:I picked up Divekick and I'm shocked how a parody game made me remember how good this genre was even though I haven't played in a decade. How budget is budget? The Soul Caliber V stick isn't too bad at $80. The WWF Brawl stick is usually hovering around $50 if you can find it.
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Dec 3, 2013 18:39
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Senethro posted:Are there any controllers with good D-pads? Could always try some manner of fightpad. Can't vouch for its quality myself though.
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Dec 3, 2013 18:40
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Senethro posted:I picked up Divekick and I'm shocked how a parody game made me remember how good this genre was even though I haven't played in a decade. Edit: I told myself that I wasn't gonna effort post this, but here we go. Mmm, these days it's pretty difficult to find a decent d-pad on a pad suited to fighters. Ironically the d-pad on fightpads are far worse than those on stock pads. So much so that I'm sure that no one having any knowledge of fighting games had any hand in designing them (the MvC Fightpad is particularly egregious in this regard). Basically, it's like playing on an NES Max. Anyway, here we have the fightpad D-Pad and below it, a traditional d-pad.    On a traditional d-pad, the bumper is at the ends of each of the directionals that depress the silicon pad underneath to connect the circuit and send the signal. The distance between pushing the direction and getting a command is called the throw (same term for the tightness / looseness of joysticks). With a short (or tight) throw it takes less movement to achieve a result than it does a long (or loose) throw. On a traditional pad, the throw is determined by the silicon pad underneath. Fortunately, these tend to be consistent, so you can go from a NES pad to a PS3 pad, etc and it'll be virtually identical. With the fightpad, the d-pad is split into two parts: the larger d-pad and the smaller, cross-shaped bumper with a shaft connecting the two. For optimal responsiveness, these two should be equal in size and with a short (preferably nonexistent) shaft. However, as you can see, the d-pad is larger than the bumper. This, along with the presence of the shaft, means that you have to depress the pad further before the bumper beneath depresses the silicon pad to complete the circuit; meaning that the throw is far greater thereby creating imprecise motions. Basically, for those playing on a stick, it's like switching out your balltop with a full-length broom handle with a dinner plate on top of it. The 360 pad with the revised D-Pad seems pretty good (I've held it in my hand, I've never used it in a game, but it feels right) and Playstation pads are consistently good. The button layout can be a pain on 6 button games, however. Alternatively you can use other pads, such as Saturn pads or old 3rd party N64 pads on adapters (which is what I use in PC play). On a console that'd be far more trouble than it's worth -- at that point you may as well invest in a stick. Anyway! Hope that helps! Ghostpilot fucked around with this message at 20:01 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 19:53
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AndyElusive posted:To be 100% honest I don't know what any of that truly means in regards to why GGPO doesn't get used more but it doesn't seem like a simple blanket matter of just using GGPO and having it instantly fix online issues in fighting games. Though I'm sure it would be a considerable better choice than what SNK, NR Studios or Double Helix are doing. GGPO is based on deceptively simple principles, so developers may easily feel they can do just as well. And as will be noted below there's still a burden of implementation when you use it as your engine has to offer some facilities for it to work. Many japanese companies will reject it out of ignorance or convenience: infrastructure in japan is much faster (small area) so they dont have nearly as much lag as the rest of the world, which makes simpler netcode viable. Even just testing for higher lag will necessitate reaching outside japan. Ghostpilot posted:Unless I'm mistaken, fighters using 3D models as opposed to sprites prevents the use of GGPO due to its implementation of rollback netcode. Based on that it seems that the fighters that GGPO would be applicable to these days would be in the minority. If a developer is telling you 3D or anything that has go to do with graphics is preventing something in netcode he either has no idea about how his own game's networking works, is lying through his teeth or had the engine implemented by people who should've learned better game dev principles (which happens more often than one would think). Sorry, it's gonna get a bit technical. The short version is you're only exchanging inputs. ---- Actually, 3D doesn't matter. At all. The principle of GGPO (and even non-rollback networking) is it only sends the inputs. It is, literally, a cable hooked from your stick to the opponent's machine and vice-versa. Then netcode is all about dealing with the inputs arriving too late or getting lost. Input delay deals with it by running the game late so inputs have more time to arrive, rollback deals with it by rewinding/fastforwarding the game to the right frames when late input is received. GGPO can and will do both. It may seem crazy at first but it's an age-old trick and still the basis of all game networking (in client-server the main difference is all inputs are hooked to the server, which acts as an authority over everything. What the server sends back is more complex, but in P2P models like fighting games it's really just built on exchanging inputs). This is built on the premise both sides are running the same game and have the same state (including the same random generator) at the start of the match, so the same inputs applied at the same frames will produce the same fight because your game is deterministic. That's also how you do replays, by the way. The advantage is it doesn't need very much bandwidth at all, and it is constant. For a fighting game, 2D, 3D, with single characters or teams, doesn't matter, all you ever need is enough to send your stick's state (two bytes for standard 6-button gameplay, maybe ten bytes if you want an analog stick) everytime something gets pressed or released. The disadvantage is it is vulnerable to desync if something goes wrong (say, lost packets, or your game engine not actually being deterministic because your gameplay programmers didn't get the memo). It's worth noting, however, that because a rollback model goes on with the match even if it's missing inputs, the game will indeed constantly be out of sync, but only for the length of the rollback window, not to the extent of what we see in the KI video. GGPO is considered fairly tolerant in this regard with a 20 frames rollback window, so basically up to the last third of a second before "now" may be out of sync as you're playing. For that duration a desync is not "wrong", you're merely playing a good approximation of your match. Rollcaster for example is much less tolerant and will only allow a handful of frames. As a fighting game player you usually won't notice a rollback smaller than the faster move startups. The model, by its nature, still ensures the match will end the same for both players since they will have ultimately processe the same inputs (Oh, by the way, giving the remote character to an AI is fair game in that model, as any frame within the rollback window "doesn't count". Most implementations, like GGPO, will simply assume the remote player isn't moving his fingers but that doesn't change anything since the rollback will retcon any decision you make on the other side's behalf) Now, while such a netcode is completely generic it does place some restrictions on the game engine: -the gameplay should be deterministic, ie the same inputs produce the same results. It requires some coding discipline and there are some traps everyone falls for (like floating point precision, ie different CPUs will produce different results for the same calculation unless you explicitly tell them not to. One reason crossplay isn't that easy). -the gameplay engine should be fast enough to restore/produce full save states once per frame and to fast-forward, ie run X gameplay loops in less than a frame (where X is your rollback window). This shouldn't be a problem because two-player fighting games don't require any heavy calculations unless you somehow need a full physics engine for your gameplay (if it's for fluff, ie clothes, hair or whatever, you fake it and don't save or fast forward the physics) -checksums (ie occasionally asking the other side "hey, once you got all the inputs up to there was your frame X like that too?") can't hurt. As soon as they don't match you can stop pretending you're in sync EDIT: a slightly more technical but possibly better description by Mauve, who built the various *caster clients: http://mauve.mizuumi.net/2012/07/05/understanding-fighting-game-networking/ ---- All of the above is basically the canonical rollback spec. You haven't got all that, you're missing stuff you shouldn't. Because that KI video is going out of sync for huge amount of time it either has a crazy huge rollback window (which is missing the point since the illusion rests on always only being barely out of sync) or isn't using a correct rollback implementation at all. And/or has bugs. And it certainly isn't doing checksums because otherwise the game would have stopped as soon as things got out of hand. I've seen some people question the upper part of the footage since it displays inputs, which they say is the mark of replay mode? No idea since I don't have KI (can someone here ocnfirm you can show inputs in an online match?) but if that were true the upper part would be a replay, which for example opens the possibility netcode is fine and reply is bugged (and apparently replay *is* bugged, which makes the theory popular). Chev fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Dec 3, 2013 |
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Dec 3, 2013 21:06
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That was a really cool and informative post, thank you Chev!
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Dec 3, 2013 21:17
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Chev posted:Awesome post on net working.
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Dec 3, 2013 23:53
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Found it!  This is possibly the douchiest thing I've ever seen from the FGC.
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Dec 4, 2013 03:56
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Broken Loose posted:Found it! I feel angry and confused
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Dec 4, 2013 05:20
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Broken Loose posted:Found it! I hate that man.
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Dec 4, 2013 05:25
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I have never been so angry in my life. Anyways, so I got my TE-S today from Namco Bandai and it's pretty slick. Can't wait to put some custom art on it.
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Dec 4, 2013 05:31
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mountainmanjed posted:Even if you take out the physics fluff like clothing physics. There is more fluff you can take out that is fluff you can just pay attention to the animation skeleton if it's a 3d game which 99.9% of the time has the hurt and attack boxes attached to it and ignore the model and texture completely. Even in the older games you can cut out fluff out of the 512 bytes in the memory for a single player in Alpha series or Darkstalkers series you probably need about 128 bytes maybe even less of it to be good enough state to roll back on. Chev fucked around with this message at 06:41 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 06:39
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Chev posted:Yup. And the thing that's usually done for boxes is that though the skeleton is originally used to generate the hurt and attack boxes, after that they'e not coupled anymore, they're then stored as a separate series of frames. That way you never need to access the skeleton animation data to get the boxes and everything goes faster and safer, plus you can then touch up the boxes in ways unrelated to the skeleton for balance purposes. Not really, unless you want to do 3d in a 2d plane with a fighter like Xrd and SF4. As for 3d fighters, usually it's as x,y,z away from a some points in the skeleton then the radius of sphere.
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Dec 4, 2013 07:59
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Broken Loose posted:Found it! S-Kill is rolling in his grave right now. Is there any video of this guy playing with this silly layout? edit: seriously why is this guys panel artwork upside down?? none of this makes any sense. AndyElusive fucked around with this message at 08:44 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 08:41
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Ghostpilot posted:Edit: I told myself that I wasn't gonna effort post this, but here we go. Thanks for this, I really appreciate it. Taking a close look at my 360 pad the Dpad looks pretty poor. If I move the thing through a 360 I can hear bumpers making contact with the throw being wildly inconsistent for different directions (and my claw hands have even knocked it off centre through crushing it in Dark Souls). It would make sense to try a PS3 pad as they're most similar to what I used to use. All PS3 accessories are USB compatible, right?
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Dec 4, 2013 11:56
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Chev posted:Yup. And the thing that's usually done for boxes is that though the skeleton is originally used to generate the hurt and attack boxes, after that they'e not coupled anymore, they're then stored as a separate series of frames. But not in SF4 because the dev team are idiots and this is why things like unblockables and tons of poo poo whiffing when it shouldn't happens 
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Dec 4, 2013 12:07
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Is there a Soul Calibur thread? I picked up SCV again for the Thanksgiving holiday, during which a buddy came over and we played a ton of it. Forgot how much fun that game is. e: Also glad to discover that it's not just me who hates fightpads.
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Dec 4, 2013 12:51
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mountainmanjed posted:Not really, unless you want to do 3d in a 2d plane with a fighter like Xrd and SF4. Yup, but that doesn't actually change the principle: you can just as well bake your 3D bounding volume positions relative to the character position so they're independent from the skeleton and can be fetched fast just like you'd do with your 2D bounding boxes. It will be more efficient *and* more secure. Chev fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Dec 4, 2013 |
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Dec 4, 2013 18:01
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Playing BlazBlue CSE for the first time. Only experience with an Arc System Works game is P4A so excuse the ignorance. What kind of timing do Rachel's DDs need? I was able to get her Astral Heat and normal special moves out just fine, but both Distortion Drives refuse to come out. I've got the gauges set to infinite and display's on. I'm doing the input correctly, the move just won't trigger. I dunno if I need to do it slower or faster, but I've tried both ways. Hell, I even thought 'maybe B/C need to be pressed during the final button input instead of just after' but nope. Heck, I tried with the dpad and the stick and neither seems to matter. Ditto for triggering them midair.
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Dec 4, 2013 19:23
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You need a lightning rod out for Baden Baden Lilly, don't you?
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Dec 4, 2013 19:25
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Endorph posted:You need a lightning rod out for Baden Baden Lilly, don't you? No, you can just activate it whenever. Lightning rods just help spread it out a bit.
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Dec 4, 2013 19:27
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That's weird that they won't come out at all. I play Rachel and sometimes her DD's don't come out, but I know it's because I didn't hit every single input exactly. From my stints in training mode, it seems like if I even miss out on one direction, it won't trigger. I just make sure I over exaggerate the motion a bit.
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Dec 4, 2013 19:29
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