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CoolZidane posted:Just once, I'd like to see a parody musical by someone who knows how to write a loving song. Most comedy musicians are trying to cover up the fact their comedy sucks by putting some musical notes behind it, and trying to cover up the fact their music sucks by adding jokes.
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Dec 14, 2013 03:55
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Ugly In The Morning posted:Most comedy musicians are trying to cover up the fact their comedy sucks by putting some musical notes behind it, and trying to cover up the fact their music sucks by adding jokes. There's actually quite a few good Australian musical-comedians like Tim Minchin, The Doug Anthony All Stars or Andrew Hanson from The Chasers.
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Dec 14, 2013 04:59
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Testekill posted:There's actually quite a few good Australian musical-comedians like Tim Minchin, The Doug Anthony All Stars or Andrew Hanson from The Chasers.
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Dec 14, 2013 05:10
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I don't think anyone was saying literally all musical comedians are bad so let's not go through a list of all the good ones alright?
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Dec 14, 2013 06:09
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Here, we can get that over with right now. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_musical_comedians TV Tropes Writer's Block > Do kids still like non-crapsack worlds? quote:Hey guys, I need a little encouragement. I recently started plotting / outlining a YA novel, hopefully the first in a series, inspired by three of my favorite books (and one of my favorite comics): Harry Potter, Haroun and the Sea of Stories, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, and Homestuck. My "goal" is to see if there's a market for Douglas Adams-style Comic Literature aimed at readers in their early to mid teens. quote:I believe there is still very much a market for content that does not thrive on the threat of sexual violence and a nihilist, Nietzsche world.  The topic of Lovecraftian love interests comes up (a la Twilight) and there is one decent joke about a real Lovecraft love interest being awkward, well-spoken, and terrified of minorities. TV Tropes Writer's Block > Post Your Concept quote:It basically breaks down to Call of Cthulhu + Kamen Rider quote:Here's a concept I have "in storage" right now, since I'm currently working on a different comic: Basically, it's a Magical Girl story where The Chosen Many have powers based on the Western Zodiac. It will have a mostly-fun-with-some-more-serious-stuff-in-there atmosphere, if that makes any sense. Think Sonic the Hedgehog. quote:
 quote:The ley lines between fiction and reality are fading. The world is becoming a darker place. A wise, eccentric spirit divines a way to help the world in the face of unworldly threats- Bestowed upon seven teens, is the ability to take on the form and abilities of seven iconic terrors of the silver screen: Frankenstein's Monster. Dracula. The Wolfman. The Creature from the Black Lagoon. The Metaluna Mutant. Freddy Krueger. Jason Voorhees. Together, they are tasked with keeping the world safe from the things that bump in the night. They are... the Thrillers.
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Dec 14, 2013 15:27
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Djeser posted:What is it with dorks and Lovecraft, seriously? I feel like it can't just be the combination of genre fiction and historical popularity. Sham bam bamina! fucked around with this message at 15:57 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 15:51
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Sham bam bamina! posted:It's not; it's that this historical genre fiction was (un)lucky enough to become a meme. I'd imagine that Metallica's Lovecraft references in their '80s albums played a large part in getting him into the collective nerd consciousness, and that his time period, middlebrow writing style, and semi-obscurity gave his stuff a kind of cachet in comparison to the pulpy sci-fi and doorstopper fantasy that nerds usually read. Oh, he's had traction for a while. I think part of it is his significant contribution to early sci-fi as well as horror. His work was somewhat more unique than that of some of his pulp brethren. He isn't the only one from his set to stick around, though - Howard was also very enduring and influential, though his popularity seems to have dropped off after he was tarred with Eighties campery. Also, his racism was less couched in metaphor and more fundamentally built into his work than Lovecraft's, which may not have helped. Yes, Lovecraft was explicitly racist as well, but his was less frequent and more ignorable than Howard's (which tells you a lot about Howard, really).
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Dec 14, 2013 15:58
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Inspector Zenigata fucked around with this message at 22:51 on Apr 2, 2014 |
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Dec 14, 2013 18:42
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The people Lovecraft influenced also ripped him off a whole of a lot less. Derleth introduced a strong Christian influenced moralism and fantasy elements into mythos, King introduced Americana, modern cynicism and a strong dose of heavy pop culture (a big deal since Lovecraft was notoriously pop culture free due to him being a sheltered weirdo). When you take other heavily influential authors (White, Tolkien, Burroughs are really the big three) the rip-offing was pretty heavy. One of the reasons the Warlord of Mars movie failed was that every concept in those books has been so thoroughly stolen and used that most things about them seems trite and boring. When that book was new stuff like "he has superpowers because that world is different" (see: Superman, Avatar etc) was a new idea, noble savage aliens with lovely tech fighting a war against the advanced tech alien oppressors was new (Dune) and hell even the idea of flying airships was new (they were a fairly new invention at the time). I think a lot of it also has to do with Lovecrafts writing style. He has a way thats very dry and scientific which sells the reader on how normal things are (which sets up for the unknowable horrors and beasts). He also, even more so than people like Lieber and Tolkien created a sort of world that felt huge and detailed even if the information wasn't really there. Also he sort of whole cloth created a genre of fiction with Dream Quest.
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Dec 14, 2013 18:43
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Darth Walrus posted:Oh, he's had traction for a while. I think part of it is his significant contribution to early sci-fi as well as horror. His work was somewhat more unique than that of some of his pulp brethren. He isn't the only one from his set to stick around, though - Howard was also very enduring and influential, though his popularity seems to have dropped off after he was tarred with Eighties campery. Also, his racism was less couched in metaphor and more fundamentally built into his work than Lovecraft's, which may not have helped. Yes, Lovecraft was explicitly racist as well, but his was less frequent and more ignorable than Howard's (which tells you a lot about Howard, really).  I think you got those two mixed up there. Lovecraft's racism was incredibly overt in many of the stories he wrote, to the point where he describes black people in the same manner he describes nightmarish horrors from the primordial ocean. Howard was about as publicly racist as average for a Texan living in the early 20th century, which seems pretty racist by modern standards. He and Lovecraft exchanged letters, being contemporary writers of pulp stories, but Lovecraft's correspondence with Howard went a ways toward making Howard less of a racist because of how shockingly bigoted Lovecraft was. Lovecraft was super duper hardcore racist and unafraid to show it.
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Dec 14, 2013 18:46
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Fuego Fish posted:
Can I get a selection of Lovecraft's more blatant forms of racism? I'd especially love to see where "On the Creation of Niggers" was introduced and fits into the mythos.
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Dec 14, 2013 19:03
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MizPiz posted:Can I get a selection of Lovecraft's more blatant forms of racism? I'd especially love to see where "On the Creation of Niggers" was introduced and fits into the mythos. Here's a paragraph from Herbert West: Reanimator. quote:The match had been between Kid O’Brien -- a lubberly and now quaking youth with a most un-Hibernian hooked nose -- and Buck Robinson, "The Harlem Smoke." The negro had been knocked out, and a moment’s examination shewed us that he would permanently remain so. He was a loathsome, gorilla-like thing, with abnormally long arms which I could not help calling fore legs, and a face that conjured up thoughts of unspeakable Congo secrets and tom-tom poundings under an eerie moon. The body must have looked even worse in life -- but the world holds many ugly things. Fear was upon the whole pitiful crowd, for they did not know what the law would exact of them if the affair were not hushed up; and they were grateful when West, in spite of my involuntary shudders, offered to get rid of the thing quietly -- for a purpose I knew too well. And here's a couple of brief quotes from outside of his fiction work. quote:The negro is fundamentally the biological inferior of all White and even Mongolian races, and the Northern people must occasionally be reminded of the danger which they incur in admitting him too freely to the privileges of society and government. quote:Of the complete biological inferiority of the negro there can be no question—he has anatomical features consistently varying from those of other stocks, & always in the direction of the lower primates . . . Equally inferior—& perhaps even more so—is the Australian black stock, which differs widely from the real negro . . . Anyone who says Lovecraft was less racist that Robert E. Howard, whose major oddity was that he had a disdain for civilization and constantly daydreamed about a semi-mythical time when men were all mighty-thewed barbarians carving their way through the untamed wilderness, knows poo poo-all about both men.
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Dec 14, 2013 19:28
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MizPiz posted:Can I get a selection of Lovecraft's more blatant forms of racism? I'd especially love to see where "On the Creation of Niggers" was introduced and fits into the mythos. Rats in the Wall has a cat named friend of the family Man, named after his own cat. There's also the repeated theme of white people breeding with monsters, such as in The Dunwich Horror of Shadow Over Innsmouth, that is basically just a slightly more fantastical version of "miscegenation." This seems like a pretty solid essay on some of the awful poo poo in Lovecraft. I also imagine that part of the reason nerds and tropers love Lovecraft so much, other than his influence on metal or video games, is that the great old ones are pretty easy to emulate. Say your monster is indecipherable and indescribable, give it a vaguely named cult, maybe throw in some fish parts, boom you have a new great old one. It's like vampires or werewolves or whatever, it's something you can very easily treat as a series of boxes to tick instead of something integral to the character. 'Course that approach fails to understand the appeal of those kind of monsters. Azathoth isn't scary because it's got a bunch of ugly eyes, it's scary because it's a black hole or a cloud of cosmic radiation or one of a bunch of other very real cosmic phenomenon that could eradicate us at any moment. Look at their page on cosmic horror stories. They mention powerlessness basically once, and that's not in their checklist. edit: Hell, that they think madness is an integral aspect of a Lovecraftian poo poo is indicative that they just like a superficial checklist. You can very easily have a cosmic horror story without madness - Lovecraft himself wrote quite a few of those. It's like suggesting a romance story has to have a marriage. TGLT fucked around with this message at 23:08 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 19:52
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Ctrl+F "Racism".
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Dec 14, 2013 19:59
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Fuego Fish posted:
No, I'm aware of how incredibly racist Lovecraft was (On the Creation of Niggers was ample evidence of that) - my point is that Howard was worse. The difference between the two was that Lovecraft's racism and other bigotries were not automatically built into everything he wrote - his best work, The Colour Out Of Space, for instance, has basically zero objectionable content unless you count the phonetic accents of the (resourceful, good-natured) local farmers. By contrast, everything Howard wrote was built around his deeply weird and unpleasant proto-fascist racial theories regarding the cycle of savagery, barbarism, and civilisation. These two articles provide a decent (though very lengthy) overview, if you want the exhaustive details. In other words, the key difference was that whilst they were both incredibly racist, Lovecraft could turn his racism off sometimes and write about other stuff. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 21:27 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 20:54
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Howard hated fascism, actually.
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Dec 14, 2013 21:30
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Fuego Fish posted:Howard hated fascism, actually. Which seems to have been more a result of his 'pick a side like you're watching a football match' approach to international relations than of any significant ideological difference. The Hyborian Age, his essay on the setting of the Conan books, makes his opinions on history explicit, and they're pretty much identical to early fascism, with 'barbarism', the best of the three states of society (the other two being civilisation, which is effete and decadent, and savagery, which is bestial and inhuman), being the myth-ideal of a fascist society.
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Dec 14, 2013 21:44
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Darth Walrus posted:Which seems to have been more a result of his 'pick a side like you're watching a football match' approach to international relations than of any significant ideological difference. The Hyborian Age, his essay on the setting of the Conan books, makes his opinions on history explicit, and they're pretty much identical to early fascism, with 'barbarism', the best of the three states of society (the other two being civilisation, which is effete and decadent, and savagery, which is bestial and inhuman), being the myth-ideal of a fascist society. Oh, sure, I'm not denying he had some weird ideas about human nature, but when it comes to the racism stakes, Lovecraft is ahead by miles. Lovecraft didn't just hate the "lower races", he was actively terrified by them. A number of his stories cover his exotic and horror-drenched interpretation of the terrors of race mixing, equating the idea of mixed-race partnerships with unnatural fish-bestiality. However because he was also terrified of the ocean, death, the colour yellow - to name but a few of the things that spooked him - he wrote about those too. Which doesn't mean that all his lovely writing about how terrifying and disgusting black people are magically disappears and doesn't count. He just had a lot of phobias that he felt needed to be explained to the public at large. Was Howard a racist? Yes. Of course he was. He was from Texas, he was white, he lived and died in the era between emancipation and civil rights... just by that alone he was going to be a overt racist his whole life. But Hell, the only difference between him and a lot of people around now is that these days it's all veiled underneath terms like "urban" and "welfare queen". And somehow we manage to tolerate the continued existence of Fox News. But thinking that Lovecraft was somehow more "in control" of his racism because he didn't make every horror story the words "BLACK PEOPLE EXIST" in big letters and expect people to jump in fright, that's just wishful thinking. He was imaginative when it came to horror, he wrote some pretty spooky stories (and some pretty loving terrible ones too), but that doesn't change the fact that he was super racist. That's like saying that Orson Scott Card isn't hideously homophobic because not every moment of Ender's Game is talking about how icky gay people are. Enjoy Lovecraft's work, but don't pretend that he's somehow more noble than Howard (or anyone at all) in any way.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:05
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Fuego Fish posted:Oh, sure, I'm not denying he had some weird ideas about human nature, but when it comes to the racism stakes, Lovecraft is ahead by miles. Lovecraft didn't just hate the "lower races", he was actively terrified by them. A number of his stories cover his exotic and horror-drenched interpretation of the terrors of race mixing, equating the idea of mixed-race partnerships with unnatural fish-bestiality. I'm not arguing Lovecraft's more noble, though. I'm arguing he's more marketable, because his racism is more usually couched in metaphor and allegory rather than fascist exultation in the literal slaughter of subhuman black people, and because it isn't automatically central to the most popular themes of his work (we are tiny insects in a vast, uncaring universe holy gently caress). Remember, this whole thing was about why he endured where other pulp writers didn't. Darth Walrus fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 22:12
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From what I recall, the Cthulhu-loving tropers generally haven't actually read Lovecraft, sort of like how a lot of them are obsessed with Warhammer 40K but don't play it. They hear other people talking about how dark and hopeless it is, and assume it must be the best because it is the Darkest And Edgiest.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:24
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Darth Walrus posted:I'm not arguing Lovecraft's more noble, though. I'm arguing he's more marketable, because his racism is more usually couched in metaphor and allegory rather than fascist exultation in the literal slaughter of subhuman black people, and because it isn't automatically central to the most popular themes of his work (we are tiny insects in a vast, uncaring universe holy gently caress). Remember, this whole thing was about why he endured where other pulp writers didn't. Lovecraft is more marketable because his universe, his "ideas" about elder gods and whatnot, went public domain before he died. Other writers took his concepts and wrote about them. Howard himself wrote one of the better pieces of Lovecraftian horror, The God in the Bowl. It's the public domain that keeps things alive. Anyone can make movies or books or comics about Dracula, so everyone knows Dracula. Likewise characters like Sherlock Holmes, Frankenstein and his monster, and stories like The War of the Worlds. People looked at the Lovecraftian mythos and saw interesting ideas that they could expand upon. Some were more successful than others, but being part of this shared universe was appealing to many writers. Either because you had some interesting material to work with, or because you were guaranteed an audience. Mind you, while "lovecraftian" is now essentially a dictionary term, don't count out Howard. He basically single-handedly invented the sword-and-sorcery genre, which has influenced countless stories for years after his death, and was one of the primary inspirations for Dungeons & Dragons, which started its own movement in turn. Howard isn't "less marketable" than Lovecraft, he's just less visible.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:28
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Yeah, they probably know the thing from derivative works like the unspeakable vault (of doom), and writers like Neil Gaiman and Terry Pratchett, who like to reference and parody Lovecraft's writing style.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:31
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Extremely off topic, but does anyone know of a book called something like the The King in Yellow? It's about an academic in the not-too-distant-future of the 1920s who has a book that makes people into lunatics the more they read it, but magic or something prevents people from actually dropping the book and never reading it again. It's not by Lovecraft, but it's a similar kind of horror story. Stealth edit: Also the book in question pretty much describes anything I've read that's come from TVTropes, so there. Actual edit: If I actually searched for it, I would have found it  http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_King_in_Yellow MizPiz fucked around with this message at 22:37 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 22:32
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Yeah, the Venn diagram of "nerds obsessed with Lovecraft/the Cthulhu mythos" and "people who have actually read Lovecraft/the Cthulhu mythos" has much less overlap than a charitable observer might assume. I'll almost guarantee that most of the tropers talking about doing "Cthulhu" or "Lovecraftian" stuff have no exposure to the material besides what's trickled down into the broader nerd culture at this point. They just know it's big scary monsters and insanity and that cool squid guy, and how awesome is that?
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Dec 14, 2013 22:32
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MizPiz posted:Extremely off topic, but does anyone know of a book called something like the The King in Yellow? It's about an academic in the not-too-distant-future of the 1920s who has a book that makes people into lunatics the more they read it, but magic or something prevents people from actually dropping the book and never reading it again. It's not by Lovecraft, but it's a similar kind of horror story.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:33
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MizPiz posted:Extremely off topic, but does anyone know of a book called something like the The King in Yellow? It's about an academic in the not-too-distant-future of the 1920s who has a book that makes people into lunatics the more they read it, but magic or something prevents people from actually dropping the book and never reading it again. It's not by Lovecraft, but it's a similar kind of horror story. The King in Yellow is a pretty solid story collection. The first half the book is holy gently caress this guy had a vision, but it kind of peters out by the second half. Some great stories, though.
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Dec 14, 2013 22:52
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Djeser posted:
There was an early 1990s Saturday morning cartoon called Gravedale High that had the mummy, The Wolfman, and Dracula as high schoolers (though not the Phantom of the Opera. I think he was replaced with The Invisible Man). It's a faded memory for a lot of people (and a non-memory for those who were born after it first came on, as it didn't rerun in syndication), but if you're a Saturday morning cartoon-loving geek who loves the obscure stuff that was "too good" for network TV, then you will remember this. Of course, these days with people trying to get future generations to see their favorite shows by posting intros and episodes on YouTube and other video sites, it doesn't matter if you remember the show when it first came on or not. Here's a clip of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGhZegXEj3U Penny Paper fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Dec 14, 2013 |
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Dec 14, 2013 23:03
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Antivehicular posted:Yeah, the Venn diagram of "nerds obsessed with Lovecraft/the Cthulhu mythos" and "people who have actually read Lovecraft/the Cthulhu mythos" has much less overlap than a charitable observer might assume. I'll almost guarantee that most of the tropers talking about doing "Cthulhu" or "Lovecraftian" stuff have no exposure to the material besides what's trickled down into the broader nerd culture at this point. They just know it's big scary monsters and insanity and that cool squid guy, and how awesome is that?
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Dec 15, 2013 03:54
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I find this kinda hard to believe. Lovecraft wrote almost exclusively short stories, and most of them are available for free online since the copyrights have expired. It takes less than an hour to dig out and read The Call of Cthulhu. You have to work very hard to put in that little effort for something you apparently love.
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Dec 15, 2013 03:56
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I find this kinda hard to believe. Lovecraft wrote almost exclusively short stories, and most of them are available for free online since the copyrights have expired. It takes less than an hour to dig out and read The Call of Cthulhu. You have to work very hard to put in that little effort for something you apparently love. Well you see, even putting in minimal effort still requires them to put in effort. EDIT: I took a look at the wrestling page and it's a very mixed bag. I'm going to ignore the elephant in the room with the whole "Face-Heel turn" (which isn't even a wrestling term) and just focus on the Wrestlers of note page. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ProfessionalWrestling quote:
I could go on. A page listing notable names in professional wrestling should be about the guys that are at the top of the card, the guys who are Indie standouts or guys that are legendary. Here's a randomly selected group of wrestlers quote:
Here's the thing, you get people like The Yeti rubbing shoulders with guys like Dusty Rhodes and Harley Race. I know the whole "no such thing as notability) bullshit but every wrestler that they remember doesn't deserve a page. Testekill fucked around with this message at 04:44 on Dec 15, 2013 |
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Dec 15, 2013 03:59
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SurreptitiousMuffin posted:I find this kinda hard to believe. Lovecraft wrote almost exclusively short stories, and most of them are available for free online since the copyrights have expired. It takes less than an hour to dig out and read The Call of Cthulhu. You have to work very hard to put in that little effort for something you apparently love. You'd be amazed how many guys out there who claim to love storytelling and want to be writers don't read. Even public-domain short stories are a lot to ask from some of these people.
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Dec 15, 2013 04:07
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Admittedly, his writing can be considered (by modern sensibilities) needlessly overcomplicated/purple prose-y at points, but not so much that you can't get the general gist of what he's conveying most of the time. And aside from the blatant racism that was posted earlier, I consider Herbert West to be one of his better works. Charles Dexter Ward can go straight to hell for being one of the dullest stories I've read, however.
Regalingualius fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Dec 15, 2013 |
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Dec 15, 2013 04:13
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Antivehicular posted:You'd be amazed how many guys out there who claim to love storytelling and want to be writers don't read. Even public-domain short stories are a lot to ask from some of these people. They don't have time to read, man, they have all these amazing worlds to create! Who cares about technical skill and the ability to create a functioning narrative that isn't just a retread of their favourite anime's plot? Amazing worlds!
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Dec 15, 2013 04:17
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This sort of thing frustrates me. These Tropers would spout so much about Lovecraft and Starcraft and TV soaps yet somehow they are too lazy to actually experience these things. And yet they can get nearly every fact wrong, fail to understand the most basic of themes and yet still proclaim themselves as wise. I thought that spergs research the poo poo out of their pointless things. Tropers are even too lazy to get part down.
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Dec 15, 2013 04:17
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Annointed posted:I thought that spergs research the poo poo out of their pointless things. Tropers are even too lazy to get part down. Sometimes they do, it's just that Lovecraft isn't pointless enough for them, so they sperg about Shinji And Warhammer 40k instead.
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Dec 15, 2013 04:19
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I used to be one of those loser nerds who "loved" Lovecraft without even glancing at any of his stories. Then in college I picked up a few Lovecraft anthologies and realized there's more to his works than tentacle monsters and people going crazy. I think for Tropers, like it was for me, it's cool and trendy to like Lovecraft. Mentioning Lovecraft or Cthulhu is easy nerd-cred.
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Dec 15, 2013 04:24
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How does TvTropes feel about Legend of Galactic Heroes?
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Dec 15, 2013 04:25
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I just don't get why everyone rips off Lovecraft and not Poe or Dunsany
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Dec 15, 2013 05:52
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crowfeathers posted:I just don't get why everyone rips off Lovecraft and not Poe or Dunsany Probably just because people are somewhat more familiar with Lovecraft on account of all the exposure the Cthulu Mythos has gotten lately. Either that, or tropers just had English teachers who taught Lovecraft rather than Poe or Dunsany.
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Dec 15, 2013 06:47
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crowfeathers posted:I just don't get why everyone rips off Lovecraft and not Poe or Dunsany Well, to a troper, they probably have never heard of Dunsany and they probably studied Poe in school by their (to use their "language") Sadist Teacher (who probably wasn't a sadist at all; tropers just like to exaggerate and think teachers are beneath them). If not, then they wrongly think Poe is for emos and Goths.
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