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Corek posted:If you look closely, the way the Neimoidians move their mouths changes between episode I and II. It matches their mouths better in Episode II. I will not mount a defense of Jar-Jar. The Gungans are a Jamaican-based race of schmucks. The rest of the associations become incoherent, near the end of the Leo article in particular. quote:A Neimoidian senator named Lott (Trent Lott?), representing the evil viceroy Nute Gunray (Newt Gingrich?) wears a version of a Catholic bishop's mitre and a Catholic priest's stole over a dark robe. This can't be an accident. It duplicates, almost exactly, the appearance of a real bishop. It's a small reference but an unmistakable one. So Catholics, along with Asians and Republicans, are at least vaguely associated with Neimoidian treachery. Is anyone here willing to elaborate on this argument that Nemoidian headdresses are anti-Catholic, or that the capitalist Nemoidian greed is an allusion to Republican stereotypes? I expect not, since this is a left or center-left forum, but there isn't much substance to the idea even if one was inclined to support it. Reading the Neimoidian entry on Wookieepedia, they fit Jewish stereotypes almost exactly (obsessed with wealth, greed, and status, the leaders of an enormous commercial space cabal), yet Watto is supposed to be the Jew here.  The strongest evidence for the Semitic caricature as Watto is a hundred-year-old cartoon found in an obscure European magazine. Nobody could, or should be expected to defend themselves from the plethora of obscure racism in the sum of the last two centuries.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:37
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redshirt posted:True. Well, like I said they have the Asian connection (though I never got specifically Japanese- their accent is more a general sibilance) but Pearl Harbor was a sudden violent strike, whereas the Trade Federation just park troops on the planet and say "'sup bitches, we're in charge." The carnage waits until the climax. So I guess it's more like their occupation of, I dunno, Manchuria? I'm not clear on the Pacific theater.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:40
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Maxwell Lord posted:Well, like I said they have the Asian connection (though I never got specifically Japanese- their accent is more a general sibilance) but Pearl Harbor was a sudden violent strike, whereas the Trade Federation just park troops on the planet and say "'sup bitches, we're in charge." The carnage waits until the climax. It would have been more destructive if the Naboo had even a semblance of an Army - which they don't. They certainly didn't expect the attack. Regardless, from the moment I first saw TPM, the Asian stereotype for them seemed pretty overwhelming. As for Watto, he's specifically a stereotypical NYC merchant - hairy, wearing a wife beater, loud, pushy, etc.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:43
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redshirt posted:But the Neimoidians are clearly space Japanese from WW2. They even launch a Pearl Harbor like attack. Again, there is an incoherence in these accusations. Towering headdress is one of the most prominent Nemoidian features, but the Japanese are not stereotyped for such. Their accent is exaggerated Chinese stereotype. WWII Japan was associated with fanaticism, brutality, and the refusal to surrender, not a simpering dependence and total lack of backbone.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:44
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redshirt posted:It would have been more destructive if the Naboo had even a semblance of an Army - which they don't. They certainly didn't expect the attack. I really would like to hear him redubbed as Carl from Aqua Teen Hunger Force.
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Dec 18, 2013 04:49
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Maxwell Lord posted:Well, like I said they have the Asian connection (though I never got specifically Japanese- their accent is more a general sibilance) but Pearl Harbor was a sudden violent strike, whereas the Trade Federation just park troops on the planet and say "'sup bitches, we're in charge." The carnage waits until the climax. Connections to either event are weak. The Japanese incursion into Manchuria was presented to the rest of the world as a response to Chinese military aggression a la the Gulf of Tonkin incident (with a higher degree of untruth). The reasoning behind Pearl Harbor is, for obvious reason, completely different than that of the Trade Federation. The United States was not an oppressed nation and there was no blockade of the island by a clearly superior Japanese navy. RoboticSpaceWizard fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 04:50
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RoboticSpaceWizard posted:Connections to either event are weak. The Japanese incursion into Manchuria was presented to the rest of the world as a response to Chinese military aggression a la the Gulf of Tonkin incident (with a higher degree of untruth). The reasoning behind Pearl Harbor is, for obvious reason, completely different than that of the Trade Federation. The United States was not an oppressed nation and there was no blockade of the island by a clearly superior Japanese navy. Do you believe there are no racial stereotypes in the Prequels? I think there is. However, I don't think there were any in the OT.
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Dec 18, 2013 05:04
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redshirt posted:Do you believe there are no racial stereotypes in the Prequels? What about "sand people"? I don't remember how they're actually portrayed though.
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Dec 18, 2013 05:05
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Lord Krangdar posted:What about "sand people"? Like mindless savages. They don't speak English so there's really no stereotype they could display.
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Dec 18, 2013 05:08
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redshirt posted:They don't speak English so there's really no stereotype they could display. Huh? Isn't desert people as savages a stereotype?
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Dec 18, 2013 05:09
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Lord Krangdar posted:Huh? Completely mindless, more like animals? Seems like a big stretch. They're introduced as animals, Obi-Wan treats them like animals. This mitigates the slaughter in AOTC by the way, because everyone on Tatooine sees them as animals.
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Dec 18, 2013 05:13
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redshirt posted:Do you believe there are no racial stereotypes in the Prequels? Jar-Jar is an uncomfortable Jamaican caricature. Lando's copilot in ROTJ is some kind of pan-Latino/Chinese bobblehead. Thinking about it, I have to admit that whatever creative process synthesized Yoda and Admiral Ackbar succeeded in creating aliens devoid of almost any racial attachments. Almost any, because a determined polemic could make a case for Yoda rising from an amalgam of pygmy bushmen, Wise African, and Magic Negro stereotypes, while Ackbar...well, I don't even know, but it is 100% possible depending on how far you want to push it. With sufficient argumentation, any alien race is ipso facto proof of deliberate or institutional racism  edit: Lord Krangdar posted:Huh? This is the sort of quandary I'm talking about. The idea of savage desert aliens seems perfectly devoid of racism, but then you start breaking it down, and you discover an unsettling colonial attitude with respect to the British perception of Zulus, for instance. Possible solution: make the aliens non-humanoid. But that won't stop your critics, since appearances can be superficial skins for the depth of metaphor presented by the symbolic nature of a Savage Tribe of Desert People, after all. Institutional racism runs deep in our society. Oh yeah, and the Jawas are Gypsys. RoboticSpaceWizard fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 05:14
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RoboticSpaceWizard posted:With sufficient argumentation, any alien race is ipso facto proof of deliberate or institutional racism As opposed to the PT, where the choice of vocal style and inflection makes all the difference. If the Neimoidians talked in some alien language that got subtitled I doubt there'd be much of an accusation of Asian stereotyping. But since they do speak English, it sounds like a cartoonish Asian stereotype.
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Dec 18, 2013 05:22
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redshirt posted:You have a point. However, I think the choices of vocals and inflections makes a difference. That guy in ROTJ never says a word of English, and thus seems quite alien. You could try and buttonhole the Wookies or Ewoks as some type of ethnicity if you tried, but they never speak English either, and so there's much less of any real impression. I would agree as far as the idea that too many 1:1 allusions to a real race indicate racism on the part of the creators, but disagree in that I believe language is only one possible allusion, and not significantly more powerful than the others. The only completely uncontroversial accent is American TV English because it is the preferred WASP sound - but how odd would it be if every negatively portrayed alien race spoke like Anderson Cooper? quote:As opposed to the PT, where the choice of vocal style and inflection makes all the difference. If the Neimoidians talked in some alien language that got subtitled I doubt there'd be much of an accusation of Asian stereotyping. But since they do speak English, it sounds like a cartoonish Asian stereotype. Actually, you can't dodge the bullet like that. Most foreign films from China, Japan, and Korea are subtitled, which is common knowledge for anyone who grew up a fan of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan, or Jet Li, just as George Lucas grew up on...Flash Gordon cartoons and Fu Manchu. The copilot alien sounds suspiciously like Chinese jibberish, also, despite what shreds of rudimentary syntax displayed in his "language" being in no way based on Chinese.
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Dec 18, 2013 05:38
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RoboticSpaceWizard posted:The copilot alien sounds suspiciously like Chinese jibberish, also, despite what shreds of rudimentary syntax displayed in his "language" being in no way based on Chinese. Dude, I know consulting wookiepedia is frowned upon, but it takes five seconds to check and find out that lando's Co-pilot is speaking an actual language. (Haya, if you were curious)
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Dec 18, 2013 06:00
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Portraying an alien means portraying the Other. To do that with care and nuance would involve leavening the subject with sufficient psychological and philosophical weight that comes with different patterns of thought; or, the on the other side of the spectrum, to deploy the sublime terror of confronting the incomprehensible, neither of which tends to be suitable for a fantasy action-adventure. These films, like the serials that served as inspiration and are baked into their DNA, are steeped in the culture of Western imperialism and thus deploy foreign/colonial stereotypes as convenient shorthand that speaks to the cultural background that creators and audiences share. It's less that these characters are Space Japanese/Jews/Bedouins, and more that those bundles of stereotyped characteristics communicate to the audience, "Oh, these characters are Other, and the CharlieFoxtrot fucked around with this message at 06:13 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 06:10
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Portraying an alien means portraying the Other. To do that with care and nuance would involve leavening the subject with sufficient psychological and philosophical weight that comes with different patterns of thought; or, the on the other side of the spectrum, to deploy the sublime terror of confronting the incomprehensible, neither of which tends to be suitable for a fantasy action-adventure. I don't understand why you would attempt a reading of either trilogy through the imperial/colonial dichotomy. If we take all aliens as, collectively, the Other, we have to admit that the avatars of the Galactic Republic are Yoda, the Senate, and Palpatine. Humans are overrepresented, yes, in the main cast, but there are plenty of aliens with lines and agency. The Jedi Council is majority alien. Yoda is neither a figurehead or a passive actor in either the symbolism or the plot action of either trilogy. Ackbar is the commander of the entire rebel fleet, and he is the one who literally calls the shots. Curiously, the Empire is an explicitly anti-alien organization, so your imperial rhetoric would work well compared to the, uh, Imperials, but not so much the films as a whole. CharlieFoxtrot posted:Portraying an alien means portraying the Other. To do that with care and nuance would involve leavening the subject with sufficient psychological and philosophical weight that comes with different patterns of thought; or, the on the other side of the spectrum, to deploy the sublime terror of confronting the incomprehensible, neither of which tends to be suitable for a fantasy action-adventure. To a galaxy-spanning civilization so far past integration, there should be little left to the unknown and the incomprehensible. The tech stasis reflects this (everything being about the same over 30 years). In fact, the truly incomprehensible would be unjustifiable in SW. To the other point, the films do sketch each race a little roughly on account of having only one or two examples of each race, at the most. Since they are space operas and not anthropological documentaries, this is appropriate. EU works such as KOTOR, having the time to expand the universe, have deepened the portrayal of many species to the level of the human characters. RoboticSpaceWizard fucked around with this message at 06:36 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 06:31
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redshirt posted:Completely mindless, more like animals? Seems like a big stretch. Are you suggesting that we're not supposed to see Anakin's slaughter as reprehensible in the context of the film?
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Dec 18, 2013 10:57
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redshirt posted:Completely mindless, more like animals? Seems like a big stretch. That colonists consider natives to be "animals" is not very surprising, but it certainly doesn't mean that the colonists are correct. They only appear "uncivilized" because they don't speak Basic (English), but it's safe to assume that's a conscious refusal on their part. RoboticSpaceWizard posted:With sufficient argumentation, any alien race is ipso facto proof of deliberate or institutional racism No one is arguing any of this. Star Wars isn't racist, it's criticizing racism. The humans in the Alliance are better than the Empire, in a large part because they treat aliens/droids better. The rebels aren't presented as perfect though; Chewie doesn't get a medal, everyone ignores 3P0 despite him always knowing what's going on, it's not until Jedi that we see an alien in command. But it's real progress compared to the violent exploitation of the Empire, and the condescending tolerance of the Old Republic. edit: sassassin posted:Are you suggesting that we're not supposed to see Anakin's slaughter as reprehensible in the context of the film? Well, that's a tough one, because that tribe did kill his mother, so out of all the reasons to consider revenge justifiable, that's pretty sympathetic. But he also takes it too far; killing their children and pets and everyone, not just the raiders. I agree it's definitely supposed to feel wrong, and it does, but an important part of that wrongness is how we identify with Anakin's pain and anger. Blood Boils fucked around with this message at 11:52 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 11:43
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sassassin posted:Are you suggesting that we're not supposed to see Anakin's slaughter as reprehensible in the context of the film? I said mitigates. It would certainly be different if Anakin slaughtered a bunch of people instead. Even Padme seems to take it OK - and she's our representative in this galaxy of "Civilization".
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Dec 18, 2013 13:59
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redshirt posted:I said mitigates. It would certainly be different if Anakin slaughtered a bunch of people instead. The way he justifies it makes his actions more horrifying, not less.
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Dec 18, 2013 15:19
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sassassin posted:The way he justifies it makes his actions more horrifying, not less. The way the moment is written in the AOTC novel, it goes into detail about the slaughter. It's pretty bad.
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Dec 18, 2013 15:47
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sassassin posted:'Died of a broken heart' has literally never meant anything but suicide. This is one of my biggest issues with ROTS, the whole broken heart thing. You just gave birth to 2 kids, and you're too weak to go on? Medically she's perfectly healthy? Ugh. I wish it was more either just a difficult pregnancy and she just didn't make it through, or Anakin survived immolation because he was tapping into her life force or whatever, so he directly but inadvertently causes her death.
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Dec 18, 2013 15:54
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Black Bones posted:Right, but it could also be a fez, or whatever type of headwear desert folks wear. You don't know what hats look like. Both hats you're talking about have no brim. Hit hat has a pronounced brim all the way around. It's closer to a pork pie hat, or a WWI British soldier helmet. There's plenty of things about Watto you could say might be racist. His hat in Episode II is not one of them.
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Dec 18, 2013 16:01
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Vintimus Prime posted:This is one of my biggest issues with ROTS, the whole broken heart thing. You just gave birth to 2 kids, and you're too weak to go on? Medically she's perfectly healthy? Ugh. Your biggest issue is that suicide doesn't always make sense?
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Dec 18, 2013 16:12
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thrawn527 posted:You don't know what hats look like. Both hats you're talking about have no brim. Hit hat has a pronounced brim all the way around. It's closer to a pork pie hat, or a WWI British soldier helmet. That hat denied a nice young alien couple a mortgage just because their gills were the wrong color.
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Dec 18, 2013 16:15
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redshirt posted:It would certainly be different if Anakin slaughtered a bunch of people instead. I'm tempted to give you this as a big red title because it's pretty alarming tbh
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Dec 18, 2013 16:44
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redshirt posted:Even Padme seems to take it OK - and she's our representative in this galaxy of "Civilization". Love often blinds people to the monstrous actions of others. Remember when Obi-Wan saw Anakin... on a security hologram... killing younglings?
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Dec 18, 2013 16:49
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Female Sand People (Tusken Raiders) in Episode II wear what are basically brown burkas. I don't remember if you can see this clearly in the movie but the were clear pictures taken during production. Even as a kid looking at the Visual Dictionary I realized "Oh those are supposed to be Muslim women."
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Dec 18, 2013 16:52
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Even in Dune the sand-people are basically space Arabs.
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Dec 18, 2013 18:05
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euphronius posted:Even in Dune the sand-people are basically space Arabs. That's cause Dune is basically Lawrence of Arabia in space. The Atreides are the Brits, Paul is Lawrence, the Fremen are the Bedouins, the Harkkonens are the Turks, the Imperial forces are the Germans who are supporting the Turks, and the Spice Melange is sweet, pure, crude oil. Granted, the mysticism elements are new as are the sandworms and much of the surface details. But the basic story? That's Lawrence of Arabia. So of course the Fremen are space Arabs. That's literally what they represent.
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Dec 18, 2013 18:12
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Yeah Herbert even went on the record saying the imagery was supposed to be that blatant. CHOAM or whatever it is was supposed to be OPEC as well. Later in the books it gets a bit crazier, but the first book is exactly how jng described it. Edit: Ah, we were saying the same thing Canopus250 fucked around with this message at 18:46 on Dec 18, 2013 |
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Dec 18, 2013 18:39
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Yeah that was my point. It is just as obvious as Star Wars.
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Dec 18, 2013 18:42
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sassassin posted:Your biggest issue is that suicide doesn't always make sense? There are many cases of death via the simple act of desiring suicide documented in the medical literature. it is known.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:30
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The issue is that the idea of a new mother losing the will to live (because her husband turns out to be an rear end in a top hat) immediately after giving birth and seeing her newborn children goes against the laws of common sense so much that it weighs towards parody.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:40
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RoboticSpaceWizard posted:There are many cases of death via the simple act of desiring suicide documented in the medical literature. it is known.
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Dec 18, 2013 19:50
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Darko posted:The issue is that the idea of a new mother losing the will to live (because her husband turns out to be an rear end in a top hat) immediately after giving birth and seeing her newborn children goes against the laws of common sense so much that it weighs towards parody. The laws of common sense don't recognize post-partum depression I guess, a clinical diagnosis that affects like 20% of new mothers.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:00
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Ave Azaria posted:Was this mechanic established in the story told by the film? Well, the other option is that she had no agency in her death (e.g. something killed her). That's unsubstantiated. edit: truly, the dark influence of the prequels is clouding this thread's faculties
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Dec 18, 2013 20:05
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Danger posted:The laws of common sense don't recognize post-partum depression I guess, a clinical diagnosis that affects like 20% of new mothers. Post partum depression doesn't occur immediately after birth, it sets in a few days or weeks later. Mothers typically don't crank out new healthy babies, look at them, go "NOPE!", and then die.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:14
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Jerk McJerkface posted:Post partum depression doesn't occur immediately after birth, it sets in a few days or weeks later. Mothers typically don't crank out new healthy babies, look at them, go "NOPE!", and then die. Good point. Postpartum depression doesn't involve spontaneous death-by-thought, either.
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Dec 18, 2013 20:25
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