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MegaGatts posted:I'm honestly not thrilled by removing strength from melee damage calculations. If you're coming into the game blind and you're building a face smasher class, even if a tool tip pops up, a lot of people will still pump strength. It's just super counter intuitive to divorce the two for some weapon types. I was trying to think up something like this earlier. I really like the idea of splitting and weighting Int and Str for damage, since both can easily be utilized to maximize damage in a real sense. Fight smarter or fight harder, so to speak. A knowledgeable fighter, like the "Bronn" archetype rope kid spoke of, vs. the barbarian head smasher. Thanks for articulating what I couldn't!
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Dec 19, 2013 03:40
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nic olas posted:I don't think I've ever played a game with an enjoyable crafting system and item degradation has always been completely pointless. If the degradation has an effect on the gameplay, I don't mind it. Fallout 3 and New Vegas have weapons break down, doing less damage and/or jamming and getting stuck. That can add a twist to a fight where your reload doesn't work right and you have to clear a jam or the weapon breaks in your hand and you have to use a backup. For a game like that, especially where part of the theme is stuff is old and broken in general, having durability makes sense. I can take or leave it in a game like this, though.
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Dec 19, 2013 03:47
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nic olas posted:I don't think I've ever played a game with an enjoyable crafting system and item degradation has always been completely pointless.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:17
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FRINGE posted:Degradation in System Shock 2 added a lot to the game. A lot of swearing.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:23
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For stats and damage bonii (come on bonii is fun to say out loud): It would be nice from the "RP" perspective if you could somehow choose which stat was a given PCs dominant combat stat during creation. So one character chooses Strength - then what they get from then on is some bonus damage that can be reduced easily by "dodge", and a bonus to penetrate physical armor. Another character chooses Intelligence - they get a bonus overcoming special resistances (they know how to minimize the issue), a penalty overcoming physical armor, and a bonus to hit when the target is engaged with another character. Last character chooses Agility/Dex/whatever - they get a bonus to initiative, a bonus to overcome "dodge", and a bonus to damage with non-large weapons and missile weapons (superior placement).
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Dec 19, 2013 04:24
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FRINGE posted:Degradation in System Shock 2 added a lot to the game. The wrench never degraded. 
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Dec 19, 2013 04:25
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Drifter posted:The wrench never degraded.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:27
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I seriously just can't wrap my head around a stat called intelligence having anything to do with how hard a character can hit a baddie in the face. It makes no intuitive sense. Likewise I can't see strength having anything to do with how hard you can soulpunch a baddie in the face. Souls aren't muscles, etc., and not every character should have to end up a genius to be combat effective.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:38
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FRINGE posted:For stats and damage bonii (come on bonii is fun to say out loud): Because you're doing it wrong. The Latin pluralization of "bonus" would be "boni", pronounced "bone-eye." What you wrote would be pronounced "boney-eye" and would be the plural of bonius. That is not a word. Everything you know is wrong.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:42
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Drifter posted:The wrench never degraded. Neither did the Crystal Shard. 
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Dec 19, 2013 04:44
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VanSandman posted:I seriously just can't wrap my head around a stat called intelligence having anything to do with how hard a character can hit a baddie in the face. It makes no intuitive sense. Likewise I can't see strength having anything to do with how hard you can soulpunch a baddie in the face. Souls aren't muscles, etc., and not every character should have to end up a genius to be combat effective. I can see how having a high intelligence could determine how well someone performs in combat due to understanding anatomy/tactics/which end of the sword is the pointy one, but yeah, having that translate into raw damage dealt seems weird. I personally think having intelligence increase a characters chance of a critical hit makes more sense. Smarter person understands how to make someone really hurt via an understanding of "weak points", pressure points on the body, and generally knowing how to handle a weapon really well. Strength seems like a more logical choice for straight up increasing how hard a character hits all the time.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:46
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MartianAgitator posted:Because you're doing it wrong. The Latin pluralization of "bonus" would be "boni", pronounced "bone-eye." What you wrote would be pronounced "boney-eye" and would be the plural of bonius. That is not a word. Everything you know is wrong. VanSandman posted:I seriously just can't wrap my head around a stat called intelligence having anything to do with how hard a character can hit a baddie in the face. It makes no intuitive sense. Likewise I can't see strength having anything to do with how hard you can soulpunch a baddie in the face. Souls aren't muscles, etc., and not every character should have to end up a genius to be combat effective. http://www.thearma.org/manuals.htm Classes in DnD that became "Weaponmaster" etc .. could easily be intelligence-fighters. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TzdtyMC7ek
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Dec 19, 2013 04:50
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Upmarket Mango posted:I can see how having a high intelligence could determine how well someone performs in combat due to understanding anatomy/tactics/which end of the sword is the pointy one, but yeah, having that translate into raw damage dealt seems weird. I personally think having intelligence increase a characters chance of a critical hit makes more sense. Smarter person understands how to make someone really hurt via an understanding of "weak points", pressure points on the body, and generally knowing how to handle a weapon really well. Strength seems like a more logical choice for straight up increasing how hard a character hits all the time. Okay, so separate Intelligence (capital I) from experience in this analogy.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:50
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Yeah, Intelligence makes a great deal more sense as a source of specific bonuses, such as criticals or other combat actions, like throwing an opponent off balance and knocking them prone (based on knowldege of center of balance, etc.). I think the systems that FRINGE and MegaGatts suggested can be explained into existence better than Int as a general combat stat.
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Dec 19, 2013 04:56
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If deriving weapon damage from intellect is the greatest crime against intuition PE commits, then it's leagues ahead of any competition. It is a game mechanic. You have all dealt with far less intuitive ones before just fine, especially if you've played D&D. What's more, the system rope kid's presented has obviously been designed to separate concerns in a simple and clear manner. Changing where bonus damage comes from depending on what weapon a character is holding is an idiot idea because it throws that all out the window. It would lead to your stats implicitly tying you to a certain class of weapon for the entire game.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:01
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coffeetable posted:If deriving weapon damage from intellect is the greatest crime against intuition PE commits, then it's leagues ahead of any competition. It is a game mechanic. You have all dealt with far less intuitive ones before just fine, especially if you've played D&D. All true. I agree that giving a character a bonus to melee damage based on the Int stat doesn't have a terribly 1st/2nd Ed. D&D feel, but gently caress it. It's better this way. If you were running a D&D campaign and one of your players wanted to make an Int-based fighter, you'd let him, if you were cool. Obsidian is cool dudes. Smoke a bowl and enjoy the revolution.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:05
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coffeetable posted:If deriving weapon damage from intellect is the greatest crime against intuition PE commits, then it's leagues ahead of any competition. It is a game mechanic. You have all dealt with far less intuitive ones before just fine, especially if you've played D&D. Yes, and I disagree that this is a bad thing. I feel that being able to switch between weapon types seamlessly removes important decisions during leveling up and character creation in order for you to have more choices in regards to equipment. You're effectively moving options from one area of the game to another while making the governing attributes counter intuitive.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:06
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Seems like one of those things you see on the tooltip that's weird for about 10 seconds, and then you get use to it and never think about it again. If that's the price to pay for more flexible game mechanics and bizarre builds then sure, sign me up.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:12
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To be honest the more I think about it the more I think the stats are fine. Ultimately, the question you want the game to answer is the following: "Can I make a character of a particular type and have it be effective while functioning in a thematically cool way." A huge amount of this can come down to trait selection instead of pure stats: you can easily imagine a strongman who is passed a bastard sword and simply is utterly ineffective, while also imagining a massive barbarian who is terrifying with that weapon - same strength score, different selection of traits. If you imagine your standard hulking but slow brute force fighter, if you can put together a decently damaging build even with low int build through intelligent selection of traits and equipment then it doesn't really matter, in an abstract sense, that intelligence is what would give him more damage - he can get enough from other sources, while having it be dealt in a thematic way. And even better - if he suddenly quaffs a potion of GENIUS, all that insight will suddenly allow him to use all this raw power in new and interesting ways, before he returns to his former dunce like state. And so on. The stats will always be relatively arbitrary. I think rope kid's desire for the core stats to be unmuddied and clearly demarcated is a sensible one, because it allows clear interaction with the more complicated character construction elements which will sit on top of them. I will be interested to see how this plays out! For reference: one of my favourite systems for this is burning wheel. The way stats fit together with traits allows you to create some really cool archetypal characters, and while most weapons deal damage based on your "power" statistic you could take traits which would allow you to substitute your agility score for power with a specific weapon to represent finesse, and so on. If you had a character whose speed, perception and agility stats were all high that combined average gives you more actions per round, letting you take unopposed actions in combat and so forth. Obviously, it's a lot less complex than PoE so it cannot be directly lifted, but I am increasingly of the mind that character concept is all: if I can start with a concept and just make a character with that in mind without considering the system the system should give me a character that works how I imagined out the other end.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:12
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MegaGatts posted:You're effectively moving options from one area of the game to another while making the governing attributes counter intuitive. How about during character creation at the part where you pick attributes right next to intelligence in big glowing red letters is "THIS IS THE STAT WHAT INCREASES THE DAMAGE YOU DO", there its no longer counter intuitive and puts more focus on moment to moment tactics rather than character building (and even as someone who likes character building, the balance between those two things is way off in most rpgs).
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Dec 19, 2013 05:12
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MegaGatts posted:Yes, and I disagree that this is a bad thing. I feel that being able to switch between weapon types seamlessly removes important decisions during leveling up and character creation in order for you to have more choices in regards to equipment. You're effectively moving options from one area of the game to another while making the governing attributes counter intuitive. SOmetimes I wanna use a mace but a longsword has better stats early on. By the time a good mace comes around I don't want to be punished for having had used a sword all this time. Also, lol, counterintuitive. Read the manual/in-game tutorials, ffs. edit: I want to put a  here for some of you guys, too. Just for good measure.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:12
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MegaGatts posted:Yes, and I disagree that this is a bad thing. I feel that being able to switch between weapon types seamlessly removes important decisions during leveling up and character creation in order for you to have more choices in regards to equipment. You're effectively moving options from one area of the game to another while making the governing attributes counter intuitive. The core tenant of character design in PE is that you should be able to pick whatever stats you want and have fun with the resulting character. Suppose then that STR boosted damage for melee weapons and INT boosted it for everything else, and suppose you then made an INT-heavy fighter. Welp. Guess you should have googled up a character creation guide first, eh n00b?
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Dec 19, 2013 05:14
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Do people ever hotswap weapons in the middle of games like that and still remain viable? I'm not saying it's the worst idea in the world, but it makes less sense to me than saying that multiple stats can affect combat perfomance. I've always stuck with a certain weapon type with my chracters, and the IE games usually did a good job of anticipating this by making sure that there were always powerful versions of all (most?) weapon types down the road. Basically, being stuck with a certain type of weapon because you built you character like that makes sense. I'm sure Obsidian will pull off a sweet system, though, so I'm not really concerned about it being a game-killer.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:14
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Well if you've got a room full of skeletons and you're holding a longsword, under certain systems it makes a lot of sense to sheath that bad boy and pull out your mace...
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Dec 19, 2013 05:16
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Alasyre posted:Do people ever hotswap weapons in the middle of games like that and still remain viable? I'm not saying it's the worst idea in the world, but it makes less sense to me than saying that multiple stats can affect combat perfomance. I've always stuck with a certain weapon type with my chracters, and the IE games usually did a good job of anticipating this by making sure that there were always powerful versions of all (most?) weapon types down the road. Well, certainly swapping between ranged and melee options. And sometimes you might find a weapon which is so extraordinary or has such domain-specific power (like crom faeyr) that there are certain circumstances where it beats out your specced weapon. It's not super common but I imagine for some people it is not that strange.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:17
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Alasyre posted:Do people ever hotswap weapons in the middle of games like that and still remain viable? I'm not saying it's the worst idea in the world, but it makes less sense to me than saying that multiple stats can affect combat perfomance. I've always stuck with a certain weapon type with my chracters, and the IE games usually did a good job of anticipating this by making sure that there were always powerful versions of all (most?) weapon types down the road.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:17
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Malcolm posted:Well if you've got a room full of skeletons and you're holding a longsword, under certain systems it makes a lot of sense to switch over to your mace... Which I've done in games, and performed well enough to survie the fight, but not fight spectacularly. But what I mean is actually switching over to the mace mid-game and being really proficient with it. Granted, high intelligence would make that process a bit easier, but you should face some sort of penalty. I understand that this is not rope kid's vision, however. coffeetable posted:What? The array of options available in each weapons spec in IE was spectacularly unbalanced. You were practically drowning in magic swords by the end. I did say "most." Anyone expecting equal amounts of spears and halberds should get their head checked. But I never had a problem equipping any of my characters in any of those games. Alasyre fucked around with this message at 05:21 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 05:18
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Alasyre posted:Which I've done in games, and performed well enough to survie the fight, but not fight spectacularly. But what I mean is actually switching over to the mace mid-game and being really proficient with it. Granted, high intelligence would make that process a bit easier, but you should face some sort of penalty. I understand that this is not rope kid's vision, however. I remember reading that instead of there being Sword Proficiency or Mace Proficiency or what ever, it's One handed Proficiency and Two handed Proficiency. Because it's honestly kinda dumb that the skills you learned from wielding a warhammer don't transfer over to when you have a mace.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:20
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As someone that played through a couple D&D 3.5E campaigns, I ultimately find fighting with a specific weapon type to be boring. Taking an exotic weapon feat to wield a katana can feel pretty awesome, but ultimately your character becomes pigeonholed into always using that weapon forever. I find something like Fallout 2 to be more enjoyable, where you pick the weapon style instead. It's a lot more fun being able to switch out your sledgehammer for a combat knife and an SMG for a shotgun, rather than endlessly searching for (or crafting) Katana +3. In a computer game it has to be balanced so you can buy or create your ideal item. In tabletop the DM either does the same or just groans and makes katanas frequently pop out of chests. On the other side of the spectrum, it's a bit hard to believe that the skilled katana user will be unable to transfer her skill to the longsword, shortsword, or even mace/staff. What does that character-defining feat really get you in the end?
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Dec 19, 2013 05:23
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NM. Edit: Yeah, intelligence definitely makes sense when considering how one weapon might behave like another. Alasyre fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 05:24
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Roobanguy posted:I remember reading that instead of there being Sword Proficiency or Mace Proficiency or what ever, it's One handed Proficiency and Two handed Proficiency. Because it's honestly kinda dumb that the skills you learned from wielding a warhammer don't transfer over to when you have a mace. Age of Decadence's system handles this in a neat way (proficiency in one weapon type increases proficiency in other weapon types by a scaling factor determined by how similar the weapon types are). The game has plenty of flaws, but that part is kinda nifty.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:25
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Roobanguy posted:I remember reading that instead of there being Sword Proficiency or Mace Proficiency or what ever, it's One handed Proficiency and Two handed Proficiency. Because it's honestly kinda dumb that the skills you learned from wielding a warhammer don't transfer over to when you have a mace. This is why I like the idea of perks you acquire from getting kills, or doing damage with specific weapon types. You have broad specialisation from one-handed/two-handed talents, and then you gain bonuses from using a particular weapon type a lot. That way, you're not hamstrung completely when you decide to change to another kind of weapon, but you might drop a few perks when you are not using your most familiar weapon.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:25
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El Pollo Blanco posted:This is why I like the idea of perks you acquire from getting kills, or doing damage with specific weapon types. You have broad specialisation from one-handed/two-handed talents, and then you gain bonuses from using a particular weapon type a lot. That way, you're not hamstrung completely when you decide to change to another kind of weapon, but you might drop a few perks when you are not using your most familiar weapon. Growth related directly to experiences is one of those really awesome things that never seems to quite make it into computer RPGs in a cool fashion. I would love to see something like that though.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:27
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SurrealityCheck posted:Growth related directly to experiences is one of those really awesome things that never seems to quite make it into computer RPGs in a cool fashion. I would love to see something like that though. Well, I'm mostly basing this idea on the perks you gain from actions in Alpha Protocol, so clearly Obsidian likes this concept as well.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:28
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Scorchy posted:Seems like one of those things you see on the tooltip that's weird for about 10 seconds, and then you get use to it and never think about it again. If that's the price to pay for more flexible game mechanics and bizarre builds then sure, sign me up.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:34
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Well, I'm mostly basing this idea on the perks you gain from actions in Alpha Protocol, so clearly Obsidian likes this concept as well. Good point, I had totally forgotten.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:38
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The stated goal of project eternity is to have all builds fun to play. Not all builds do the same things. I feel stats influencing equipment choices creates meaningful pros and cons as opposed to being proficient with all regardless of the attributes. In fact weighting strength and intelligence differently for different classes of weapons creates more possibilities for builds. The trick would be to keep the a broad variety of each class of weapon available and not to be too specific with what falls into what category. Three or maybe four classes of weapons would be all you need. I might be in the minority, but I like having some restrictions. I'm sure Obsidian will do a good job with what ever they do, but they listen to the ideas of their fans and that's my opinion. I'm sure it won't be incorporated, but as long as they're engaged in their community of fans I think differing points of view are valuable. poo poo, this is literally the first piece of news I'm at all skeptical about except for the item durability that was removed before I even noticed it was a thing.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:41
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Honestly, I'd just have damage coming from a solid thunk to the head get a bonus from strength, and damage coming from soul-magic get a bonus from another stat. Example: Let's say a sword does 1-8 physical damage per hit, and you've got strength to give it a bonus of 5 points because you are ripped as poo poo. Also the sword channels your soul to do fire damage on top of that, but your soul is mediocre so you do 1-4 (example) fire damage plus 1 point for your meh-level soul.
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Dec 19, 2013 05:49
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Damage being tied to intelligence makes sense within PoE's class scheme. Fighters are meant to be reliable and versatile, it's the rogues who deal out grand punishments. Barbarians are AoE combatants as well. Brute strength might count in a fist fight but when you've got weapons being fast and smart are ultimately better assets. The heavy / edged metal generally does the lifting for you. Actually, tying armor penetration to strength could really work, if there is such a mechanic. Basic Chunnel fucked around with this message at 06:05 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 06:02
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Basic Chunnel posted:Damage being tied to intelligence makes sense within PoE's class scheme. Fighters are meant to be reliable and versatile, it's the rogues who deal out grand punishments. Barbarians are AoE combatants as well. There are dudes who literally fight with their fists in the game. Fist-fighting is a thing that will happen. Also, you have to be strong to be fast, that's a pretty basic fact of physiology. Thirdly you're so wrong on the strength not mattering in a physical fight that I don't even know where to begin. It's a loving stupid statement no matter how you slice it.
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Dec 19, 2013 06:14
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