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Pringles_School posted:I have a bit of a problem seeing the difference. The observer. AXE COP posted:I would have thought a bunch of rpg nerds would be down for making int the damage stat. Finally I can prove to those dumb jocks t high school that *i* am the real man!! Nah, most of us have had to realize by this point that we're not all that smart either so we gotta invent some abstract quality (which we believe we possess) from which we derive our True Power (though this magical attribute does not, curiously enough, help us in anyway in our meandering and pointless lives).
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Dec 19, 2013 14:57
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Megazver posted:Unfortunately, this is a game specifically designed to make AD&D neckbeards feel young and in love again. Everyone deserves to be in love, Megazver. Even fat, autist, neckbeards who love stats like me. Your wizard might not value strength, but it might be worth it if it helps Tome Slams and Jams, so maybe Intelligence on a fighter doesn't let them do more damage because they're stronger, but because they know what to aim for (anatomy), or it lets them bypass defenses (pointy end goes here under the armpit). Maybe they have a mechanic where magical weapons require a willpower stat to wield and a fighter with high will or determination or whatever can use it, getting the benefit of an armor bypassing mechanic or just setting some dude on fire. The real goal is just to have a combat system that uses all 6 stats, then tweak who wants what later on.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:05
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Is there an NMA analogue to IE games (besides this thread)?
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Dec 19, 2013 15:18
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Jesus all this outcry over Intelligence determining damage. 4E long since broke me of associating with Strength as damage because in 4E, what stat provides bonus damage to your abilities is one hundred percent determined by your class and what abilities within those classes you are using. Some Paladins use Charisma for bonus damage! On their most basic attack no less.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:19
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How has this discussion gone on for more than one post where someone said "Eh, maybe a little weird but who cares?"
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Dec 19, 2013 15:20
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I mean poo poo this isn't even hard to justify. Fight smarter, not harder. Same way the old grizzled fighter who is still a badass despite his body failing him works. This isn't complicated.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:27
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Male Man posted:How has this discussion gone on for more than one post where someone said "Eh, maybe a little weird but who cares?" I've said this before but it's a consequence of information dribbling through so gradually, leading to every minor detail gaining a lot more attention. This isn't the only Kickstarter that has had the same effect and as far as these topics go this one's not that terrible. Also everyone's an armchair game designer. Or more specifically, that famous "ideas guy".
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Dec 19, 2013 15:32
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Another thing to remember is that a "low" strength score is only low compared to other adventurers. A fighter with a strength of 13 is pretty low for a fighter but in comparison to the general population where a normal person is 8-10 he's buff as hell. Plenty strong enough to swing a sword at the very least.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:33
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You know it's not good design when so many people are trying to hard to excuse/justify it, it's almost as if they're trying to convince themselves sheesh.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:37
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It's because it is not even a design issue, it is just a god drat name. If they switch Resolve and Int effects and make everyone happy, the design is still the loving same.
Hand Row fucked around with this message at 15:44 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 15:41
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I dunno, I think I'll never not be weirded out by there being two different "takes damage" stats. I mean, yeah, they go into separate pools, but still. But I think I'm literally the only person who thinks that, so... eh. Anyway, intellect should govern inventory spaces because only a true level 30 space wizard can effectively play inventory tetris. 
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Dec 19, 2013 15:44
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Alasyre posted:Is there an NMA analogue to IE games (besides this thread)? RPG Codex is basically this but it really covers all PC RPGs (including the Fallout series).
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Dec 19, 2013 15:44
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AXE COP posted:I would have thought a bunch of rpg nerds would be down for making int the damage stat. Finally I can prove to those dumb jocks t high school that *i* am the real man!! I want to play as a woman, so screw you nerd!  Hey Ropekid if you could ask Avellone to include a plot-important old blind woman who can see the future or knows way too many secrets somewhere in the game (if he hasn't already) I will be very happy. If he refuses, please tell him someone on the internet said 'pretty please?' This is my personal measurement of whether or not the game will be good. Having the future-telling person be a kid was very immersion-breaking in New Vegas.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:48
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Hand Row posted:It's because it is not even a design issue, it is just a god drat name. If they switch Resolve and Int effects and make everyone happy, the design is still the loving same. If we're talking *~my immersion~*, then I'd say resolve makes an even poorer damage stat. With Intelligence, your fighter is using his knowledge of anatomy or outright predicting where his opponent will be in the enxt split second. Resolve? "I will hit him even harder! Burning manly spirit YEARGH!" I don't know; it just sounds so anime.
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Dec 19, 2013 15:49
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Hand Row posted:It's because it is not even a design issue, it is just a god drat name. If they switch Resolve and Int effects and make everyone happy, the design is still the loving same. No and this is also an excuse. Going beyond the realism part (i.e. physical attributes have 0 impact on combat damage but a simple mental attribute affects it), it's clear that without the damage part intellect becomes a dump stat for fighter types. With current P:E int fighters are pretty much forced to not ignore int while casters seem to get away fairly easily with ignoring strength. Other than maybe resolve i don't see a single stat fighters can give up on without sacrificing from their effectiveness, or becoming specialized if you will. I think trying to make all stats be equally important in all situations, combat or otherwise is counter-intuitive to begin with and it's where the whole int affecting damage problem stems from. And i think int can be implemented as a combat-affecting stat better too. uaciaut fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 15:58
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uaciaut posted:No and this is also an excuse. This does not logically follow. It is a baseless assumption that, short of damage, there is nothing of value that can be tied to Intelligence because Intelligence is somehow special or unique. Here let me invent a really quick and easy one: It's tied to the growth of one of the multiple defensive stats in this game. Just like in 4E, for example! Well that was hard I'm gonna go take a load off after all that work.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:01
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Captain Oblivious posted:Here let me invent a really quick and easy one: It's tied to the growth of one of the multiple defensive stats in this game. Just like in 4E, for example! Well that was hard I'm gonna go take a load off after all that work. Not sure if you're agreeing with me here or not based on your example. Did you pump up your fighter's int to make sure he's better defensively equipped for combat in NWN2?
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Dec 19, 2013 16:04
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VanSandman posted:Hey Ropekid if you could ask Avellone to include a plot-important old blind woman who can see the future or knows way too many secrets somewhere in the game (if he hasn't already) I will be very happy. If he refuses, please tell him someone on the internet said 'pretty please?'
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Dec 19, 2013 16:09
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Fighters don't really need to deal damage with the way classes are set up in PoE, so they could completely ignore Intellect and still be useful. And I'm sure brute-type characters will be viable through talents or weapons with Strength requirements.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:10
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Intelligence as a damage stat is cool and I approve of it, being able to build a skilled precision fighter instead of just a guy who hits extremely hard with a hammer is significantly slick but also simultaneously neat.CommissarMega posted:If we're talking *~my immersion~*, then I'd say resolve makes an even poorer damage stat. With Intelligence, your fighter is using his knowledge of anatomy or outright predicting where his opponent will be in the enxt split second. Resolve? "I will hit him even harder! Burning manly spirit YEARGH!" I don't know; it just sounds so anime. When I mod Goku into the game I will make sure to use resolve as his damage modifier stat in order to accurately reflect Dragon Ball Z canon so as not to ruin anyone's immersion. You have my word, CommissarMega.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:12
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Male Man posted:How has this discussion gone on for more than one post where someone said "Eh, maybe a little weird but who cares?" What exactly is your ideal for discussion in this thread? None at all? You're right, this is not a big issue. I don't think it's going to be a deal-breaker for even the most grognardiest grognard who ever grognarded on this earth, but it's something we can have a conversation about and hopefully end up with a slightly improved game for everyone. If the attributes end up like this in the final game, Eternity will be an RPG with a slightly silly stat system (woah, first of its kind, surely!) but, you know, eh? Not a big deal. If there's something else you'd like to talk about, please feel free to do so! If we're discussing things that we're really worried about, my two biggest fears are a.) that this game will have a clunky interface and b.) poor character animation that leads to unresponsive gameplay. A.) because it's probably really loving hard to design a slick, well-working interface for an RPG with a billion different spells, special abilities, quick items and whatnots and b.) because the trailer looked really clunky (I know alpha footage and all), this probably isn't a huge priority (I, not knowing about the realities of game development on a limited budget and such, think it should be a priority but hey) and honestly Obsidian doesn't have a great track record on either of these issues. Fish Fry Andy posted:Intelligence as a damage stat is cool and I approve of it, being able to build a skilled precision fighter instead of just a guy who hits extremely hard with a hammer is significantly slick but also simultaneously neat. I think this is a really boring way to make a "smart" fighter type viable -- if my character concept is a guy who fights by using his wits and skill instead of brute force, I really don't want him to play exactly the same as the guy who fights with brute force. I'm not saying this is what happens in PoE, but that's something I hate about D&D games where certain feats give INT bonus to damage or whatever. Yeah, cool, my smart fighter is essentially the same as the strong fighter, woop-de-doo. verybad fucked around with this message at 16:21 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 16:13
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In FY:SYD:JSPDRPGE, will you use Cadwallon's dispositions-as-stats rather than everything else's attributes-as-stats? My $100 is riding on this. Also, I vote you change Intellect to Acumen or Sapience or something even more obtuse but specific just to shut the butt-pained up. This has become the lamest of trad games conversations.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:14
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uaciaut posted:Not sure if you're agreeing with me here or not based on your example. Did you pump up your fighter's int to make sure he's better defensively equipped for combat in NWN2? A Fighter in Pillars of Eternity is a defensive/tank-like role so either tying Intelligence to damage to make his disengaging attacks more potent or tying it to a defensive stat to make him more likely to survive his role are equally valid approaches. This isn't NWN2, after all.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:16
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01011001 posted:I actually was thinking about AoD throughout a lot of this discussion, having played the poo poo out of the demo recently on several characters - it tries some things regarding ability scores, weapon skills, and such that are actually really interesting and commendable attempts, aside from the part where you have to really throw a bunch of characters into the meat grinder until you smell what the dev's cooking to understand it in practice as opposed to on paper. My thoughts on Age of Decadence are pretty similar overall. It seems like the character system they're using is another step in the evolution of classless RPG character systems in the mold of the first two Fallouts and Arcanum. The systems and the world were the best parts of Arcanum for me (I loved the setting despite having a rather visceral dislike of steampunk - it was just so charming). And there are a bunch of things from Arcanum's system that remain rare or never caught on at all elsewhere but which I loved - raising primary statistics being more of a focus than pumping skills (and requiring certain levels of primary stats to pump skills to given levels), the symmetry of the available primary stats, a clean separation between skill level and training level, fate points that were powerful but pretty rare and gave you a good deal of roleplaying flexibility, the magic/tech dichotomy that gave Rill Gude bonuses for specializing but still preserved the viability of a jack-of-all-trades build, putting in the 500 gold knowledge challenges in taverns to speed the early game along on your second through hundredth playthrough, etc. Oh, and low or moderate-INT casters were the norm e: and the cycles and epicycle of pagan idols to sacrifice to with their bonuses was kickass too There were plenty of rough edges of course, especially on the tech side (too many dump/roadblock schematics and spells, uneven gating of ascension kit gear for magic vs. tech characters, combat being a kind of compromise design that ended up poorly balanced for both RT and turn based modes, prowling was rarely useful and a PIA to use in the cases where it was useful, etc). It's a shame that that will never get ironed out in a second iteration since Activision Blizzard owns the rights. This has been my regularly scheduled melancholy/nostalgia post for a thirteen year old game, thanks for listening and please enjoy gently caress You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience. Blotto Skorzany fucked around with this message at 16:40 on Dec 19, 2013 |
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Dec 19, 2013 16:25
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Rope kid please just rip off Dungeons of Dredmor's stats verbatim, tia.quote:Stubborness is the primary attribute of the Monk and enhances self-righteousness and the ability to ignore mean things other people say about you. It affects magical resistance and block chance.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:25
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Someday too I will write a wall of text about why all shop inventory setups in every rpg forever suck and how the introduction of a request system to all/most of them (sort of like Nimble from Call of Pripyat) would go a fair way toward fixing it.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:31
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rope kid posted:That's genuinely cool, but we didn't Kickstart a game called gently caress You: Suck My Dick: Josh Sawyer's Personal Dream RPG Experience where I do whatever I personally think is sound and neat and good. In all seriousness, if this came to Kickstarter I would throw money at it. It's always fun to see what people come up with when they're given absolutely free reign, within time/budget constraints, obviously. On that note, what was the game? Did it ever come out? MartianAgitator posted:Also, I vote you change Intellect to Acumen or Sapience or something even more obtuse but specific just to shut the butt-pained up. I'm plumping for cogency. But only if all the other stats get ludicrous renames too. I want to pump cogency at the expense of fettle.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:32
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Captain Oblivious posted:A Fighter in Pillars of Eternity is a defensive/tank-like role so either tying Intelligence to damage to make his disengaging attacks more potent or tying it to a defensive stat to make him more likely to survive his role are equally valid approaches. You're very inconsistent about arguing and seem confused friend. To reiterate -i said that it's really apparent that int affects damage for it not to be a dump-stat because otherwise it would not affect combat at all (for non-healers at least), which is absolutely true (notice that if you remove the damage part of int this becomes pretty apparent). Note that i did not say there's NO WAY POSSIBLE for int to affect combat by design, there's plenty of ways that Int can be made a good combat stat and i used a fallout2 example in my previous post to illustrate that (where i said int should have a slight affect on all combat stats similarly to how luck affected all skills in fallout). Your example to how int doesn't have to be a dump stat was REALLY bad because in 4e you never actively put points in your fighter's Int to increase their will save or w/e, you go around that with items and whatnot. And even then at the end of the day your fighter still won't have the best will saves because he'll have the highest fort saves which are his strong points. And there are other ways to go around his weaknesses - like chaotic commands and other mind-resisting buffs, hell that's why the buffing system is there in the first place imo. It is true that you can create an-int based fighter in NWN2 with combat insight (an epic feat) but this takes a lot of planning ahead and it's an atypical build, one where most likely str will have become a dump-stat for you. Now re: fighter's role in P:E - i've also said the same thing in a previous post, the way the current stats are distributed is to force to limit the fighters in one way or another, since ALL the stats (bar maybe resolve?) seem to have some level of importance to some aspect of his combat potential and he can't (most likely) focus on all. Thus he's by nature limited to being more offensive or more aggressive. That's fine, i've nothing against specialization in general, but i said that if you look at mages for examples Str has CLEARLY no benefit as a stat for them, it's completely a dump stat for them from the get go, so it DOES affect class balance in a poor way and maybe there is a better way to implement int (and str) to balance things out, because currently int seems to have damage attributed to it just so fighters HAVE to sacrifice something to become specialized while mages are free to stay in their "wimpy no-str but powerful int/resolve" image of old D&D without being taxed for it, which is really bad design imo.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:36
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uaciaut posted:You're very inconsistent about arguing and seem confused friend. A) Having a decent Intelligence or Dexterity to avoid having a lovely Reflex save as a Defender in 4E is absolutely something you should do, and not something that magic items can wholly ameliorate. 2 or 3 points makes a big difference. B) To the bolded point, my entire point is this is a useless tautology. You are in effect saying "If you take away the thing that makes it useful it's useless". No poo poo.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:41
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I was writing a post about how it doesn't matter how "smart" one fights if your opponent is in full plate armour and you can't generate the force to pierce or puncture it, but it made me think of an idea: have characters with high strength be able to ignore a fraction of DT.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:43
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SoggyBobcat posted:I was writing a post about how it doesn't matter how "smart" one fights if your opponent is in full plate armour and you can't generate the force to pierce or puncture it, but it made me think of an idea: have characters with high strength be able to ignore a fraction of DT.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:46
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How about int raising minimum damage while strength raises maximum damage? If a weapon hits for 10-20 damage then hitting harder with it (+5 modifier str) hits for 10-25 while hitting smarter with it (+5 modifier int) hits for 15-20. Both have equal dps but are very different play styles, strength based on harder top end blows while intelligence based on hitting the right places so you have less low end blows.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:46
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Mechanics aside do we know what the ~exclusive~ in-game pet will be yet?
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Dec 19, 2013 16:50
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Flagrant Abuse posted:A smarter person will be able to suss out the weak points in the armour more easily, though. It depends on the equipped weapon. If I have a warhammer, I'm not trying to suss out weak points, I'm trying to hit the guy really hard and concuss him. Still you have a point: perhaps tie armour-piercing using light weapons to perception and heavy weapons to strength.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:51
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SoggyBobcat posted:It depends on the equipped weapon. If I have a warhammer, I'm not trying to suss out weak points, I'm trying to hit the guy really hard and concuss him. Still you have a point: perhaps tie armour-piercing using light weapons to perception and heavy weapons to strength. It's almost like these stats are gamist abstractions and that the justifications for them vary in how much they make any sense at all based on the situation, and that Strength=Damage is the same way.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:55
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Masonity posted:How about int raising minimum damage while strength raises maximum damage? I can get behind this.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:58
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Captain Oblivious posted:A) Having a decent Intelligence or Dexterity to avoid having a lovely Reflex save as a Defender in 4E is absolutely something you should do, and not something that magic items can wholly ameliorate. 2 or 3 points makes a big difference. A) No, 2 or 3 points make a small difference, you get a +1 modifier for every 2 points anyway so a 3rd point would make no difference at all actually. And beyond what int i gave my figher char at start of NWN2 i never spend a drat point in it afterwards and i really doubt you'll see a single person who really understand the game that chooses a point of Int at the expense of a point of Str just for better will saves, it doesn't make any loving sense. This in particular since we're talking about a party based game where members make up for each others' weaknesses, see the buffing part i mentioned before. B) Well yes, you're artificially inflating a stat to have big role in combat at the expense of another stat and i think this is bad by design. What i tried to say was that it was pretty obvious that they took the damage component of Str and put it to Int to suddenly make Int a good stat for fighter types and it has negative consequences. To reiterate my main point again in a simpler form in case you missed it: - fighters don't get damage for str, they get it for int. - they either try to focus pretty much all stats (jack of all trades master of none) now or sacrifice some at the expense of others becoming "specialized" - str is devalued now even more and it's still a completely worthless stat for caster-types, probably worthless for rogue-types as well; this especially since it's a party based game and weight is split (note that i am aware that weight becomes a more important stat now because different weapon types counter different armor types, i doubt you'll be forced to have high-str casters or rogues just to be able to carry more poo poo, it would be loving horrible) - thus caster types (and possible rogue types) get a free dump stat while fighters don't really get one.
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Dec 19, 2013 16:59
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Captain Oblivious posted:Jesus all this outcry over Intelligence determining damage. 4E long since broke me of associating with Strength as damage because in 4E, what stat provides bonus damage to your abilities is one hundred percent determined by your class and what abilities within those classes you are using. Again, this is completely not the end of the world, and I actually have no problems with Strength having no real direct impact on damage dealt or really anything else about the attributes as they are right now. It's just a weird mental quibble.
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Dec 19, 2013 17:01
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uaciaut posted:A) No, 2 or 3 points make a small difference, you get a +1 modifier for every 2 points anyway so a 3rd point would make no difference at all actually. And beyond what int i gave my figher char at start of NWN2 i never spend a drat point in it afterwards and i really doubt you'll see a single person who really understand the game that chooses a point of Int at the expense of a point of Str just for better will saves, it doesn't make any loving sense. A) Specifically it makes a 10 to 15% difference, which is statistically significant. This is not up for debate. Due to how the point buy system works, forgoing 1 point of to hit and damage (or a 5% improved hit chance) can afford you significant gains in other areas. For a Defender, this is a very rational choice. I am unclear on why you keep bringing up NWN2. B) What does "artificially" even mean? Why is one arbitrary gamist abstraction more valid than another?
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Dec 19, 2013 17:01
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I actually have a question about strength and the pack mechanics. The pack is inaccessible in combat, and characters can freely exchange items between their packs outside of combat, so what's to stop a wimpy wizard from having Edér or someone carry all his heavy grimoires for him so he doesn't have to invest in strenght himself? Or are the companions going to tell you to gently caress off when you ask them to carry your books for you.
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Dec 19, 2013 17:02
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