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nvining posted:Half the office is sick, so here is David's feverish ramblings about sound effects: That sound blog was interesting. One idea, have you considered making sounds become more jarring and unpleasant as your colony goes crazy? Maybe have random whispers as well.
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Jan 8, 2014 21:28
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Adventure Pigeon posted:That sound blog was interesting. One idea, have you considered making sounds become more jarring and unpleasant as your colony goes crazy? Maybe have random whispers as well. The more insane your clerks and stocktakers are, the more absurd your resource counts should seem. WE HAVE INFINITE WOOD!
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Jan 9, 2014 08:36
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Spaceking posted:The more insane your clerks and stocktakers are, the more absurd your resource counts should seem. WE HAVE INFINITE WOOD! Viagra's a hell of a drug.
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Jan 9, 2014 09:25
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If you experience lumbering jobs lasting longer than four hours, consult your bureaucrat.
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Jan 9, 2014 21:26
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nvining posted:Oh, right now it crashes the game. :3 If you decide to pick the player at "random", you should consider making it consider which players got the decision earlier. It's entirely possible that a completely random system chooses the same player for every decision during the course of the game, and this might make players irritated at the game for no benefit. Because people do get upset when they feel a completely random system is discriminating against them, even when it's proven the system is completely random.
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Jan 10, 2014 04:12
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SteamDevDays is today and is a great excuse to talk about Stickiness and Networking.
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Jan 15, 2014 20:22
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Good article, can I just say please include the option anarchic free for all play, as well as the more organised modes. Obviously wouldn't be something you'd want to play with strangers much, but for a group of friends I can see considerable potential for hilarity and interesting situations.
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Jan 15, 2014 22:49
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How many customers of yours don't want to use steam? I'm surprised that it's not an easily-ignorably-small number.
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Jan 16, 2014 01:58
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Volmarias posted:How many customers of yours don't want to use steam? I'm surprised that it's not an easily-ignorably-small number. Seriously, I thought all the grumpy old dads who thought this way had quit gaming already.
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Jan 16, 2014 02:09
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No, there's still a very vocal minority that thinks Steam is evil DRM that will lock up all your filez if you fart wrong near gaben.
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Jan 16, 2014 02:52
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Volmarias posted:How many customers of yours don't want to use steam? I'm surprised that it's not an easily-ignorably-small number. Paradox's Crusader Kings 2 used to have a Steam-free version. It's not supported anymore because only 3-4% of CK2 owners used it. I think Gaslamp should be warned that coding for Steam-haters might be a waste of effort in the long run. Dareon posted:No, there's still a very vocal minority that thinks Steam is evil DRM that will lock up all your filez if you fart wrong near gaben. They may be loud but they're also a tiny fraction of gamers.
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Jan 16, 2014 03:43
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Dareon posted:No, there's still a very vocal minority that thinks Steam is evil DRM that will lock up all your filez if you fart wrong near gaben. It's not a totally terrible argument, in that Valve basically dictates entirely whether you can play the games that you purchased, and that mistakes, account hijacking, fraud, etc can basically rob you of your rather large gaming library. On the other hand,  I'd love to hear some numbers from our intrepid developers as to what they'd expect regarding numbers, especially if they WILL be able to sell via Steam.
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Jan 16, 2014 04:57
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Steam's cool, they got DRM down well¹ ubisoft on the other hand²... Will CE feature life simulation? Like raising an imperial family or something? I'd like a family simulator where one can find opportunity to say something like "Don't look at me! We both know who's side of the family she gets her bimetallism from!" ¹ effective while (mostly) non-intrusive ² who the gently caress takes down an authentication server without a redundant server? Only in France could you not get fired for pulling poo poo like that
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Jan 16, 2014 05:30
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Volmarias posted:I'd love to hear some numbers from our intrepid developers as to what they'd expect regarding numbers, especially if they WILL be able to sell via Steam. I'm at a loss to explain how you think it's even remotely possible that the designers of Dungeons of Dredmor wouldn't be able to sell their next game on Steam.
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Jan 16, 2014 10:06
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Volmarias posted:It's not a totally terrible argument, in that Valve basically dictates entirely whether you can play the games that you purchased, and that mistakes, account hijacking, fraud, etc can basically rob you of your rather large gaming library. To be more precise, Steam DRM allows Valve to basically dictate that stuff. The aforementioned Crusader Kings 2 is only available for purchase on Steam. It features full integration with Steam achievements, trading cards, Cloud saving, etc. It doesn't have Steam DRM. You can run in just fine with or without Steam actually running. Steam functionality without Steam DRM is basically the nirvana of gaming.
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Jan 16, 2014 18:12
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Quantum Milkman posted:To be more precise, Steam DRM allows Valve to basically dictate that stuff. The aforementioned Crusader Kings 2 is only available for purchase on Steam. It features full integration with Steam achievements, trading cards, Cloud saving, etc. It doesn't have Steam DRM. You can run in just fine with or without Steam actually running. Steam functionality without Steam DRM is basically the nirvana of gaming. A few other games do that as well. But do the Steam API stuff for networking work without steam running or with a steam account logged in without the game registered? Also I've heard that only big devs have the option of forgoing steam drm and for those without weight to throw around valve makes them use it. Steam is indeed wonderful and troubling at the same time. On topic I lost track of CE for a while and am delighted to see it coming along well. The dev blogs are great, both to get a look into how the sausage is made and for how they are written. Will any Alpha Centauri references make it into the game? I'd love to see the militia try to fend off a demon boil of mindworms. Also any chance of an asymmetric multiplayer mode? Something like up to 3 players work for the glory of the empire but the forth is secretly a subversive and trying to get something terrible to happen. Not simply destroy the colony but get the colony to thrive and be strong enough to 'accidentally' unleash a horror while also not being strong enough to stop said horror. It could really add paranoia about other players. Are they pillaging the fishpeople settlement to stop their raids or to provoke a massive uprising? Or just to open the way to looting their temple to send treasure back to the empire? Or is the treasure actually the key to the prison of a cosmic horror they secretly worship? Or is the whole fight a distraction so they can slip communist agitators into my colony unnoticed?
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Jan 16, 2014 19:57
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LtSmash posted:Also I've heard that only big devs have the option of forgoing steam drm and for those without weight to throw around valve makes them use it. Steam is indeed wonderful and troubling at the same time. I really doubt that this is true because some dudes called Gaslamp had their first game ever released on Steam without any DRM.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:32
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Senethro posted:Seriously, I thought all the grumpy old dads who thought this way had quit gaming already. When in doubt, developers should provide an alternative. Especially for an indie dev that needs every single sale they can get.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:45
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Korak posted:I dislike steam and rarely use it, only when I absolutely am forced to. There's still a lot of people that early steam pissed them off, even if the service seems to have improved a bit. The thing is, most people in the "Steam is the devil!" camp are, well, exactly that. Insane on an incomprehensible level. Steam will eat your babies, rape your family and then also ban you from the internet! Alternatives are always good though.
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Jan 16, 2014 21:49
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Orv posted:The thing is, most people in the "Steam is the devil!" camp are, well, exactly that. Insane on an incomprehensible level. Steam will eat your babies, rape your family and then also ban you from the internet! 
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Jan 16, 2014 21:52
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Korak posted:There's still a lot of people that early steam pissed them off, even if the service seems to have improved a bit. That was like a decade ago 
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Jan 16, 2014 22:50
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And its improved a fair sight more than "a bit".
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Jan 17, 2014 00:33
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Korak posted:There's a significant of people like that, regardless of how well steam seems to have done. They do exist and they will buy your game if you give that alternative. I'm pretty sure that the ratio of people who hate steam vs people who don't is not significant.
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Jan 17, 2014 00:40
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Lprsti99 posted:I'm pretty sure that the ratio of people who hate steam vs people who don't is not significant. According to Garry Newman who attended Valve's Steam Devs Day event this week, Valve released that Steam has over 75 Million active accounts. I can't see there being a significant amount of people living under a rock and holding onto an irrational grudge to still hate a service that was in its infancy for over a decade.
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Jan 17, 2014 01:04
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Enzer posted:According to Garry Newman who attended Valve's Steam Devs Day event this week, Valve released that Steam has over 75 Million active accounts. That has got to be a lot of people living under a rock and holding onto an irrational grudge to still hate a service that was in its infancy for over a decade. I think you're overestimating potential market versus the market it has actually captured. People who still think it's unusable are crazy, amongst the other crazies, but it's a very small, very loud minority.
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Jan 17, 2014 01:06
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Has there been word yet on the specific DRM-implementation of Clockwork Empires? For all we know, it could turn out just like Dredmor, and you can run it without Steam up just fine.
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Jan 17, 2014 01:07
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Orv posted:I think you're overestimating potential market versus the market it has actually captured. And I think you overestimate the massive benefits working with Steam as opposed to capturing a few potential nut jobs with irrational hatred and inability to drop a grudge. Especially when working with Steam does not mean there is always DRM.  VVV Its cool, I was distracted when I was first writing it and then realized it didn't make sense after the fact. 
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Jan 17, 2014 01:08
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Enzer posted:And I think you overestimate the massive benefits working with Steam as opposed to capturing a few potential nut jobs with irrational hatred and inability to drop a grudge. Especially when working with Steam does not mean there is always DRM. I missed the sarcasm in your last post before you edited it.
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Jan 17, 2014 01:16
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Seventh Arrow posted:That was like a decade ago Seriously. I used to be in the Steam-hater camp, because I'd heard how terrible it was that same decade ago and found that it would just hang literally all day trying to log in (My problem: I was using dialup). Upgraded my internet service last year, was persuaded to give Steam a chance (Actually it was more like I was berated for having a decade-old opinion of it), and I've never looked back.
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Jan 17, 2014 01:50
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I'm reading the recent posts as an in game discussion of the merits of steam vs some other power source. I'll admit that early adopters of steam were often scalded to death but it has improved a lot.Korak posted:I dislike steam and rarely use it, only when I absolutely am forced to. There's still a lot of people that early steam pissed them off, even if the service seems to have improved a bit. Orv posted:Alternatives are always good though. Alternatives are always nice but making the alternative takes developer time and especially for indie devs working on a shoestring dedicating a programmer to a non-trivial task for a non-trivial amount of time actively takes away from bug fixes and features.
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Jan 17, 2014 05:56
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LtSmash posted:Alternatives are always nice but making the alternative takes developer time and especially for indie devs working on a shoestring dedicating a programmer to a non-trivial task for a non-trivial amount of time actively takes away from bug fixes and features. This, I think, is the main issue. Not only does it take time, but it takes time away from more important things like "having a working game" and "implementing all of the planned features." I don't care what platform you use, but if you are purposefully keeping yourself off of what is pretty much the objective winner of PC distribution right now, then you shouldn't really cry about support and what not. That said, I love steam to death and will not buy things that aren't on it.
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Jan 17, 2014 06:08
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One thing about steam is that it is really really dirty, usually. Coal dust gets loving everywhere.
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Jan 17, 2014 06:40
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poo poo guys, indie games do incredibly well on Steam. DayZ isn't even out of a lovely alpha stage where all you can do is get sick, shoot people and ignore the ever living poo poo out of zombies and it's been the top seller for weeks!
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Jan 17, 2014 06:59
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Korak posted:When in doubt, developers should provide an alternative. Especially for an indie dev that needs every single sale they can get. It depends whether the alternatives are worth the effort. If it doubles your maintenance costs having to maintain and distribute two versions of the game, that could be an issue, and not worth the small percentage of sales. People are odd about games. Like on the X forums when they were gearing up to release rebirth, people were complaining that having it on steam would mean they might not be able to play it in ten years if valve stops being around. Because, obviously, that £40 you spent ten years ago on that game which no longer functions on modern hardware is absolutely integral to your enjoyment of your life today. People seem to have a very strange notion of return on investment as regards to videogames. Namely that it has to be infinite return for minimal investment. And they wonder why developers want to cut costs by publishing digitally. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 07:09 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 07:03
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We just got back from Steam Dev Days - ironies of ironies! - so we have a certain amount of thinking to do. Some very cool stuff. On the subject of DRM: I cannot currently imagine having a DRM policy that is any different than what we currently have for Dredmor - i.e. "if you run it outside of Steam, everything just works.) This is because DRM does not work. Period. Not at a "does it work on a social level" level, a "does it prevent piracy level", but at a "does it work, as a technology, level"? No. Not unless you want everything to go through a master server that we control. I am, in fact, not totally sure how you turn DRM *on* for a Steam title, and would actually have to go look it up. Disclaimer: the following opinions are mine and not necessarily all of Gaslamp; however, I am personally a big fan of adding value-added services to support people who don't pirate your game, be that the convenience of rapid updates, online achievements, Steam Trading Cards, or whatever. I think if you make having a big, ominous master server something that is a service people love, rather than something that they have to call home to every 15 minutes or so, then everybody wins. nvining fucked around with this message at 10:37 on Jan 17, 2014 |
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Jan 17, 2014 10:32
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And now, shotgun answers:Adventure Pigeon posted:That sound blog was interesting. One idea, have you considered making sounds become more jarring and unpleasant as your colony goes crazy? Maybe have random whispers as well. We do this. Dareon posted:If you experience lumbering jobs lasting longer than four hours, consult your bureaucrat. In fact, we do currently experience lumbering jobs that last forever, and I need to fix this. Next! Rudi Starnberg posted:Good article, can I just say please include the option anarchic free for all play, as well as the more organised modes. Obviously wouldn't be something you'd want to play with strangers much, but for a group of friends I can see considerable potential for hilarity and interesting situations. Honestly, anarchic is probably what we'll start with, and - well, we'll just see what happens. There's a bunch of stuff where we really have no idea what to do, and we won't know until we see what happens with more testers. So this will be Fun. LtSmash posted:But do the Steam API stuff for networking work without steam running or with a steam account logged in without the game registered? You would have to run the game in Steam for it to connect to their servers. Basically, by having both your machine and your friends' machine connected to Steam, Steam can navigate your two firewalls so that everybody can talk to each other and nobody gets left out. This is probably the easiest thing to do; I want to avoid the experience that I'm sure a few of us have had with low-budget networking, where you have to string two machines together by setting up your own VPN with Hamachi or what have you. So that's a big priority for me. Steam internally used to wrap libjingle, which is Google's API for bypassing firewalls, so we could probably either a) roll our own NAT puncher (I've seen code for this before, including in the Torque Networking Library; it looks... painful, but not horrible to write) or b) use libjingle ourselves, which is what Spyparty does. quote:Also any chance of an asymmetric multiplayer mode? Something like up to 3 players work for the glory of the empire but the forth is secretly a subversive and trying to get something terrible to happen. Not simply destroy the colony but get the colony to thrive and be strong enough to 'accidentally' unleash a horror while also not being strong enough to stop said horror. It could really add paranoia about other players. Are they pillaging the fishpeople settlement to stop their raids or to provoke a massive uprising? Or just to open the way to looting their temple to send treasure back to the empire? Or is the treasure actually the key to the prison of a cosmic horror they secretly worship? Or is the whole fight a distraction so they can slip communist agitators into my colony unnoticed? I, personally, like the idea of secret goals, but I have no idea if it would be fun or not.
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Jan 17, 2014 11:15
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nvining posted:Disclaimer: the following opinions are mine and not necessarily all of Gaslamp; however, I am personally a big fan of adding value-added services to support people who don't pirate your game, be that the convenience of rapid updates, online achievements, Steam Trading Cards, or whatever. I think if you make having a big, ominous master server something that is a service people love, rather than something that they have to call home to every 15 minutes or so, then everybody wins. Maybe I can convince my wife to buy a copy. She enjoys city builders but I think the Darkness Rising aspect put her off a bit.
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Jan 17, 2014 11:27
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Secret goals can be fun but I'm having difficulty thinking how to make it work in this context. I think the main thing is you have to obfuscate the player actions enough so that it's not blatant which player is doing what action but still give enough information so that players can eventually work out over time who the subverter is. I'm basing these thoughts purely on having played the battlestar galactica board game* though so maybe there are other ways you could do this. * To explain the game takes place on a ship and each player picks a character to play, each of whom gets to pick up only certain coloured cards out of 5 colours. As well as having actions detailed on these cards, they are used (discarded into a pile) in checks called crises (iirc). To pass a crises a certain number of cards of a particular set of colours needs to be given up by the players, which they do in turn order and are then revealed once they've all gone. Players also get a loyalty card at 2 stages during the game, one at the beginning and one about halfway through. The loyalty card determines if you're human (and thus want to progress past these checks in order to win) or cylon (where you then want to impede the humans as much as possible to achieve your own victory conditions). Now going back to the crises, players don't know what others are contributing to the crises and you can't say what you're putting in either. The reason for this is because you can put in cards that don't match the pass criteria of the crises but instead negatively affect the check. Obviously cylons want to do this but they have to be careful because other players know what colours they can potentially have. So if you have the only character that picks up blue cards, and the crises needs anything other than blue to resolve and the pile turns out to have a lot of blue you're gonna be quickly targeted. I really like this mechanic, I don't know about how to implement something that feels similar though.
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Jan 17, 2014 11:37
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I really like the idea of the traitor because it promotes an incredibly interesting form of treachery. If you're just spamming frogmen you've got three other invisible hands spamming militiamen and you'll get outnumbered and crushed and the damage will be mopped up in minutes. The real skill is going to be in building an incredibly complex doomsday rube-goldberg machine that drives the entire colony into a death spiral without it being remotely clear what the cause is. Knock over the wrong pipe or factory and you could spill molten lava all over everything or crash the economy. It'd be like bomb defusal, untangling a twisted knot of buildings, people and feed-in structures to work out which wire to cut to save the city.
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Jan 17, 2014 12:15
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nvining posted:I, personally, like the idea of secret goals, but I have no idea if it would be fun or not. This is the entire point of Paranoia, wherein all players have a shared objective, but each player has their own secret objective, many of which will conflict. I have heard that it is an absolute blast to play with the right people.
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Jan 17, 2014 13:27
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