|
Jedit posted:Constantine has never worked in America. I'm actually one of those people who loves the Azzarello run, but I love basically everything Azzarello touches. Damnation's Flame, though, Jesus. I don't remember having this reaction to it when I first read that story about 5 years ago, but this go around it was just excruciatingly embarrassing.
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2014 19:54
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 05:59 |
|
|
Jedit posted:Constantine has never worked in America. What about Swamp Thing?
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2014 20:03
|
|
|
That's weird. I liked Damnation's Flame and it's bad acid trip America. It's worth it for John F. Kennedy's dialogue alone. But I see why people didn't like it. It's kinda hamfisted portrayal of the darkside of America, and oblique in all of it's abstraction. Reminded me a lot of something Ellis would write on an off day. God Of Paradise fucked around with this message at 00:41 on Jan 16, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 00:39
|
|
|
God Of Paradise posted:That's weird. I liked Damnation's Flame and it's bad acid trip America. The Kennedy stuff's okay but the awful monologue about Lady Liberty getting gang-raped in Central Park followed by the flock of anthropomorphized dollar bills descending like bats shouting poo poo like "I FUNDED SADDAM HUSSEIN" made me want to kill myself. I'll see if I can post some scans later, it's truly abysmal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 00:52
|
|
|
God Of Paradise posted:That's weird. I liked Damnation's Flame and it's bad acid trip America. To be fair, it's not like previous issues of Hellblazer were subtle with their treatment of Thatcher's Britain. And this is Garth Ennis we're talking about.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 01:02
|
|
|
You'll have to do a lot worse than heavy-handed criticism of America and capitalism to come close to The Town That hosed Dogs.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 01:25
|
|
|
Lurdiak posted:You'll have to do a lot worse than heavy-handed criticism of America and capitalism to come close to The Town That hosed Dogs. The Town That hosed Dogs arc ruled though. Believe me, I'm not coming here to bury Ennis. I love Ennis, and I love most of his Hellblazer run. But that arc is loving dire.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 01:29
|
|
Uncle Boogeyman posted:The Town That hosed Dogs arc ruled though. It ruled the garbage bin kingdom of trash dimension, maybe.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 01:30
|
|
|
FMguru posted:I like it better than most (the Fabry covers really made an impression on me), but it really does read like it was written by a college freshman who had just read Zinn for the first time and can't wait to tell you about the real history of USA. I found Preacher a lot like this, except instead of Zinn it's someone who discovered Bill Hicks for the first time. I loved it when I was at university but I hated it when I re-read it a few years ago. I'm really not a fan of Ennis at all, a lot of his stuff just feels so juvenile. And not in a good way. It's why I never tried The Boys
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 03:10
|
|
|
TomWaitsForNoMan posted:I found Preacher a lot like this, except instead of Zinn it's someone who discovered Bill Hicks for the first time. I loved it when I was at university but I hated it when I re-read it a few years ago. I'm really not a fan of Ennis at all, a lot of his stuff just feels so juvenile. And not in a good way. It's why I never tried The Boys I liked his Hellblazer a lot, but the last time I felt that Preacher was him trying to be funny. However, most of it fell really really flat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 06:03
|
|
|
TomWaitsForNoMan posted:I found Preacher a lot like this, except instead of Zinn it's someone who discovered Bill Hicks for the first time. I loved it when I was at university but I hated it when I re-read it a few years ago. I'm really not a fan of Ennis at all, a lot of his stuff just feels so juvenile. And not in a good way. It's why I never tried The Boys The Boys works if you hate a lot of Superhero tropes and cliches. Otherwise it'll come across as trying too hard.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 06:21
|
|
|
I have never read The Boys but I have always always always loved this cover
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 06:42
|
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:The Boys works if you hate a lot of Superhero tropes and cliches. Otherwise it'll come across as trying too hard. Most of his stuff that I've read comes across as trying too hard
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 08:11
|
|
|
TomWaitsForNoMan posted:I found Preacher a lot like this, except instead of Zinn it's someone who discovered Bill Hicks for the first time. That's a coincidence - it was when Ennis discovered Bill Hicks for the first time.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 09:32
|
|
|
Considering that the premise of Preacher is that God is a sadistic narcissist who abandoned humanity, I'm honestly kind of surprised AMC wants to touch that poo poo with a 10-foot pole.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 09:45
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:The Boys works if you hate a lot of Superhero tropes and cliches. Otherwise it'll come across as trying too hard. I don't know, I'd imagine people who hate superhero comics aren't really interested in a comic that just takes superhero stuff and then has someone poop on it and call it gay. I'd wager they'd rather read something good that's devoid of superheroes.
|
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 15:54
|
|
|
That describes me pretty much exactly. I read The Boys for a few volumes and got sick of the relentless gratuitous gore and deviant sex poo poo. And I'm pretty hard to gross out or shock. But I'm all set when some weirdo's inexplicably squirting blood and semen under Huey's door and then the X-kid send-ups are watching porn and jerking each other off in dedicated jerk-off chairs (complete with built-in tissue and lotion dispensers). Enough's enough.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2014 16:37
|
|
|
Martello posted:That describes me pretty much exactly. Strange thing is, of all the stuff that is gratuitous, those examples ARE explained in-story. If you care: the blood-semen guy was paid to do so to basically mess with Huey, and the jerk-men are all long-term victims of extreme sexual abuse let loose with unlimited funds/gifts from the benefactor.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 08:16
|
|
|
Pope Guilty posted:Considering that the premise of Preacher is that God is a sadistic narcissist who abandoned humanity, I'm honestly kind of surprised AMC wants to touch that poo poo with a 10-foot pole. Comics are $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ right now.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 08:26
|
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:The Boys works if you hate a lot of Superhero tropes and cliches. Otherwise it'll come across as trying too hard. Honestly, I hate a lot of Superhero tropes and cliches, and The Boys still seems like it's trying too hard. I enjoy a conspiracy of superheroes, and I also enjoy the idea of normals defeating superheroes (although the Boys left "normals" behind a long time ago), ala Stormwatch: Team Achilles. But I just get tired of The Boys always turning things up to 11 (what if Superman wasn't just evil, but also Raped Dogs!).
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 15:26
|
|
|
Mister Roboto posted:Strange thing is, of all the stuff that is gratuitous, those examples ARE explained in-story. If you care: the blood-semen guy was paid to do so to basically mess with Huey, and the jerk-men are all long-term victims of extreme sexual abuse let loose with unlimited funds/gifts from the benefactor. I know, but that doesn't make it necessary. I love a lot of Ennis' stuff but when he decides to go the deviant sex route it gets ridiculous. The excessive gore doesn't really bother me, Punisher MAX is one of my all-time favorite series.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 16:20
|
|
|
Martello posted:I know, but that doesn't make it necessary. I love a lot of Ennis' stuff but when he decides to go the deviant sex route it gets ridiculous. The excessive gore doesn't really bother me, Punisher MAX is one of my all-time favorite series. I think the thing (that I just figured out) is that The Boys is actually a horror story--or, at least, is more likely to work for you if you like horror novels/movies. You have to have some appreciation for shock humor to find it at all funny, and the most effective actual story developments are horrific: like the Black Noir criminal insanity/evil doppelganger idea, most twists and reveals are also acts of extreme violence, etc. Also, like a lot of horror fiction, there's a bunch of sex in it, because lots of people have sex and violence and fear all tangled up in weird ways. Anyway, I mention because I thought The Boys was stupid 70% of the time, but still bought/read the whole series (on sale, at least), and therefore must have enjoyed it more than I disliked it. And the things I actually enjoyed seemed like the same things that occasionally get me to read pulp horror books even though they're 70% stupid, too.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 16:54
|
|
|
Every time I hear about Boys it sounds dumb as poo poo, but the only section I've read was a short about a guy saving the world by loving an asteroid to pieces, and that piece had me laughing for days.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 17:01
|
|
|
ulmont posted:Honestly, I hate a lot of Superhero tropes and cliches, and The Boys still seems like it's trying too hard. I enjoy a conspiracy of superheroes, and I also enjoy the idea of normals defeating superheroes (although the Boys left "normals" behind a long time ago), ala Stormwatch: Team Achilles. But I just get tired of The Boys always turning things up to 11 (what if Superman wasn't just evil, but also Raped Dogs!). That's not even really what the book's about though. The book's about one scared hosed up Scotsman dealing with the girl he loves being killed by a careless rear end in a top hat and getting caught up in a horrible mess of poo poo and violence and coming out clean on the other side. Ennis's frustration with superhero comics is like third in line in terms of what that book's going for (second is his usual schtick about the definition of a hero).
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 17:36
|
|
|
onefish posted:I think the thing (that I just figured out) is that The Boys is actually a horror story--or, at least, is more likely to work for you if you like horror novels/movies. You have to have some appreciation for shock humor to find it at all funny, and the most effective actual story developments are horrific: like the Black Noir criminal insanity/evil doppelganger idea, most twists and reveals are also acts of extreme violence, etc. Also, like a lot of horror fiction, there's a bunch of sex in it, because lots of people have sex and violence and fear all tangled up in weird ways. Horror is my favourite genre of anything ever, and I can't stand 90% of Ennis' work, The Boys included, so I don't know that this is true. Like, compare his work to something like Berserk, which is definitely a horror comic that is overall more sexually deviant, dire, violent and gross than anything Ennis could come up with, and it never comes off as half as cynical or lazy as anything he does. You know what, I'm kind of sick of giving him a pass. gently caress Ennis. Even the good comics he's done aren't necessarily worth defending in light of the rest of his absolutely fecal catalogue. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 18:03 on Jan 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 17:55
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:You know what, I'm kind of sick of giving him a pass. gently caress Ennis. Even the good comics he's done aren't necessarily worth defending in light of the rest of his absolutely fecal catalogue. Ennis is hit or miss but when he's on (Punisher MAX, Fury MAX, many of his war comics) he's one of the all-time greats for crime/military comics. Also "Until the End of the World" from Preacher is one of the great horror comics stories. Uncle Boogeyman fucked around with this message at 18:08 on Jan 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:06
|
|
|
Don't get me wrong, I like Punisher Max, but I still think it's too uneven to be lauded as one of the all-time greats. Preacher can go gently caress itself. Why people are making GBS threads all over someone like Kirkman for being too pointlessly dark and cynical while evangelizing that piece of poo poo, I'll never understand. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:09
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:Don't get me wrong, I like Punisher Max, but I still think it's too uneven to be lauded as one of the all-time greats. Yeah I have to agree with this. Well, the last part at least since I haven't read Punisher MAX. Preacher is just so incredibly lazy and sophomoric that I don't think it deserves anywhere near the praise it gets. I think it's a lot like the Boondock Saints in that it came along at a time when a certain generation of young men (including myself) were at the age when stuff like that really appeals despite how awful it actually is, so it gets a pass.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:15
|
|
|
Preacher has its ups and downs but "Until The End Of The World" is a masterpiece of Southern Gothic horror on par with anything by Joe R. Lansdale. It's one of the best single stories 90s Vertigo ever produced.Hakkesshu posted:Why people are making GBS threads all over someone like Kirkman for being too pointlessly dark and cynical while evangelizing that piece of poo poo, I'll never understand. For one, Ennis is one of the best dialogue writers in comics, whereas Kirkman could never write dialogue to save his life. Also Ennis has at least a rudimentary grasp of the idea that stories have a beginning, a middle, and an end.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:22
|
|
|
Somebody needs to inform Ennis that Americans don't say "bloody" or "arse".
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:27
|
|
|
Oh, I'm not saying Kirkman is a super awesome writer, but whenever anyone brings up Invincible here, everyone goes on about how brutal and dark it is, which I think is like the least of that book's problems. Compare that to something like The Boys, which I just find to be utterly revolting in every way.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:27
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:Oh, I'm not saying Kirkman is a super awesome writer, but whenever anyone brings up Invincible here, everyone goes on about how brutal and dark it is, which I think is like the least of that book's problems. Compare that to something like The Boys, which I just find to be utterly revolting in every way. I think the reason that comes up with Invincible so often is because at that book's outset, it was a fairly teen-friendly, fun, bright superhero book, not too far afield from Ultimate Spider-Man. Something you could feel good about giving to a young adult just starting to get into comics. So for it to make this steep descent into insanely violent goreporn both (a) feels wildly incongruous with the tone that made the book work in the first place, (b) feels just generally icky for taking place in a teen superhero book, and (c) feels like an extra blatant cash-in attempt from Kirkman realizing "Hey, gore sells!" with The Walking Dead (this part became extra clear with his hilarious announcement at Image Con earlier this week).
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:33
|
|
|
I disagree that it started out that way (it got brutal pretty early on), but I never read the single issues, so it might have actually taken a long time, I don't know. The Walking Dead is what it is, though. That complaint I don't understand.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 18:35
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:Preacher can go gently caress itself. Why people are making GBS threads all over someone like Kirkman for being too pointlessly dark and cynical while evangelizing that piece of poo poo, I'll never understand. Because the meat and bones of Preacher is the people talking about the idea of America, the meat and bones of Kirkman books is mindless violence and shock factor. Hakkesshu posted:The Walking Dead is what it is, though. That complaint I don't understand. Because Walking Dead is the epitome of shock for the sake of shock. It's been ten years, nobody is surprised when a character is SHOCKINGLY DISEMBOWELED WITH A ROTOTILLER or whatever the gently caress, because that's all the book is: Horrible things happening endlessly, with no point to it other than to move units because Kirkman can't loving write. I blame Walking Dead for the non-Ennis parts of Crossed. Also while the violence in Invincible was a step up from most teenage superhero books, it was like bruises and bloody noses and broken bones, the effects of actual fights between regular people. Big gap between that and headbutting a dude's face concave.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:09
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:I disagree that it started out that way (it got brutal pretty early on), but I never read the single issues, so it might have actually taken a long time, I don't know. It took exactly seven issues.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:09
|
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Because Walking Dead is the epitome of shock for the sake of shock. It's been ten years, nobody is surprised when a character is SHOCKINGLY DISEMBOWELED WITH A ROTOTILLER or whatever the gently caress, because that's all the book is: Horrible things happening endlessly, with no point to it other than to move units because Kirkman can't loving write. I blame Walking Dead for the non-Ennis parts of Crossed. This is exactly what Preacher and The Boys is, though. loving constant despair and horrible people being horrible. Shock value is Ennis' entire loving schtick in the vast majority of his work. Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jan 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:19
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:This is exactly what Preacher and The Boys is, though. loving constant despair and horrible people being horrible. Shock value is Ennis' entire loving schtick. Preacher and even the Boys have a lot of moments of hope and humor interspersed to lighten things up, though. Also that whole "story with a beginning, a middle, and an end" thing I mentioned earlier. To say shock value is the only thing he has going for him makes it seem less like you read his comics and more like you skimmed them. The Walking Dead is just an endless, repetitive death march that's as poorly drawn (with the exception of Tony Moore's all-too-brief tenure, not that I'm not glad he got to escape to better books) as it is poorly written.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:21
|
|
|
Ennis' attempts at humour are possibly the single worst parts of his stories, though. Like the entirety of The Pro.
Hakkesshu fucked around with this message at 19:25 on Jan 17, 2014 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:23
|
|
|
Hakkesshu posted:This is exactly what Preacher and The Boys is, though. loving constant despair and horrible people being horrible. Shock value is Ennis' entire loving schtick in the vast majority of his work. Dude that is not remotely what The Boys is about. The Boys is about a dude who's all hosed up after his girlfriend is killed struggling to maintain his sanity in a world of poo poo and his salvation comes in the form of a new love on the opposite side of the war. The entire point of the book is that Hughie doesn't lose himself in the violence and the filth like The Boys and most of the superheroes, that he comes out on the other side of it all pretty much unchanged, but healed. Also Ennis's major schtick is a constant musing on the definition of a hero. Preacher's about the myth of the cowboy, Hitman and Punisher are aruging different sides of "can a killer be a good guy", and The Boys is about shades of grey and despair and at what point do you stop being a hero.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:25
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 14, 2024 05:59 |
|
|
Literally The Worst posted:Dude that is not remotely what The Boys is about. The Boys is about a dude who's all hosed up after his girlfriend is killed struggling to maintain his sanity in a world of poo poo and his salvation comes in the form of a new love on the opposite side of the war. The entire point of the book is that Hughie doesn't lose himself in the violence and the filth like The Boys and most of the superheroes, that he comes out on the other side of it all pretty much unchanged, but healed. I'm not talking about thematic poo poo, I'm talking about the stuff that's on the page and happening in the story. Which is grody as gently caress.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2014 19:26
|
|