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GraPar posted:To be honest I'd be interested to know if they knew what was going to happen if they tied. If they thought they would just get their chips back then obviously you'd have to go for it, but if they were aware that it was going to become totally luck-driven then it's definitely a dumber play, especially when you're pretty drat confident of winning in the long run, as Jinho must have been Also, I'm pretty sure they knew the chips ride, I remember them saying that, probably in this episode but definitely in the previous Indian poker games.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:08
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GraPar posted:Oh man, amazing episode. That's got to be one of the best deathmatches ever, right? Cannot remember the last time I was that goddamn tense watching TV. Second tie was hilarious. Obviously devastated that Jinho is out and that the most annoying player is still in, but on the plus side it does open the game up massively. I think it was kind of dumb by Jinho to call Jiwon in the first place though - obviously he was in a seemingly good position, but it was also obvious that he must have a lovely card + that trying to rush the game was massively advantageous to Jiwon. Going to be so weird next week watching an episode of The Genius that doesn't have Jinho in it! Except the deathmatch was terrible. There's no way you fold when your opponent has the worst possible card. Especially since you can see a 2 on your opponent's head, making the chance you also have a 2 even lower. Then the elimination is a coin PAL-18 fucked around with this message at 22:13 on Jan 20, 2014 |
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Jan 20, 2014 22:09
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I do agree that tying the number of chips to the number of garnets is pretty dumb, especially when nobody has any garnets - they should probably have just given them a flat 20/30. Incidentally, I do wonder what would have happened if nobody had given Jinho any garnets. Fast Luck: yeah, that does make a lot of sense - whenever I play poker I'm always mad cautious and hence do terribly, so think that was just manifesting itself through proxy
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Jan 20, 2014 22:17
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Having garnets be important to individuals is very important though, in terms of facilitating cool group plays. If garnets never matter, there's no incentive to ever go for garnets individually (i.e. all you care about is that the group as a whole has a lot of garnets). If garnets don't matter, it's very difficult for them to be used to facilitate deals between players, securing loyalties etc. Because there are games where group play is necessary to enact cool strategies, garnets simply must be important at points.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:34
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Strategy- There is litterly 100% no way that Jinho can fold there. Its a total freeroll and he can't just give up 7% of chips to fold against a possible tie. It was also the proper move by Jiwon given his abilities vs Jinho's. It was the dumb let it ride rule that was hosed up and only that.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:38
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Zythrst posted:Strategy- There is litterly 100% no way that Jinho can fold there. Its a total freeroll and he can't just give up 7% of chips to fold against a possible tie. It was also the proper move by Jiwon given his abilities vs Jinho's. It was the dumb let it ride rule that was hosed up and only that. I agree. Both players made the right move there and just like the theme of the week, it all came down to luck. I really hope this doesn't mean there will be no more "Eureka!" moments on the show. It would be kind of sad if the rest of the main matches all had some clever trick designed into them, but no one figured it out each week and the producers are left shaking their heads in frustration.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:49
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So next season, it's obvious that they can't have Jinho back as a contestant again. So it's pretty obvious what they have to do... first episode of next season, they should reveal bandage-hyung to be Jinho, and have him be the host of the show from them on.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:52
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Shakugan posted:So next season, it's obvious that they can't have Jinho back as a contestant again. So it's pretty obvious what they have to do... first episode of next season, they should reveal bandage-hyung to be Jinho, and have him be the host of the show from them on. I'd rather see him as a dealer, visibly struggling not to reveal strategies to the new players.
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Jan 20, 2014 22:54
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qbert posted:I really hope this doesn't mean there will be no more "Eureka!" moments on the show. It would be kind of sad if the rest of the main matches all had some clever trick designed into them, but no one figured it out each week and the producers are left shaking their heads in frustration. Uh, Sangmin was the one who figured out the main match this week and has won 5 out of 7 main matches. Jinho's a genius but let's give some credit here.
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Jan 20, 2014 23:00
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Tonfa posted:Uh, Sangmin was the one who figured out the main match this week and has won 5 out of 7 main matches. Jinho's a genius but let's give some credit here. I'll give Sangmin credit for figuring out the main match this week, but I wasn't talking about winning main matches. You can win every match through enough alliances and social interactions. I'm talking about things like INFINITE GEMS and REVERSE STRAIGHT that make me think "Oh wow, that was a clever way of winning the game."
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Jan 20, 2014 23:08
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s2 e7: Never forget the back of the cards having a different pattern depending on orientation play. That was his best moment and it was awesome. The most genius thing I've seen on the show. Doubly awesome because he had been excluded from alliances that game and won solely with the solo play. Ah Jinho, I already miss you. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 00:08 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 00:05
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I will be organizing the Jiwon hate group and Junghyun support group at my house every monday
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Jan 21, 2014 00:18
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Xachariah posted:s2 e7: Never forget the back of the cards having a different pattern depending on orientation play. That was his best moment and it was awesome. The most genius thing I've seen on the show.
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Jan 21, 2014 00:21
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It was probably on purpose. I'm guessing that card manufacturers know full well by now that card backs should either be rotationally symmetric or obviously asymmetric. When I was a kid, I had a deck of marked cards and that was precisely the trick used to tell cards apart.
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Jan 21, 2014 01:11
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Fast Luck posted:I actually kind of think the backs of the cards thing wasn't put in intentionally either. The trick the producers were trying to offer to the contestants was the different colored backs, not the different designs. Jinho just out-clevered the game. It was funny even with the Jinho snubbers knowing the back of card trick none of their scores came close to his and a lot of them threw up total duds. Kyungran was the only one remotely close. The colour of the cards seems like an obvious red herring to make you spend garnets. The producers seem to like putting in hidden strategies that don't require you to spend any garnets. Like the dice in the last game, everyone was buying them to get good ones instead of swapping and reconfiguring them. EDIT: Remember, Sangmin only managed to make his loaded dice by using one of another players initial dice. I think in all the games where you can buy something for an "advantage" there seems to be something subtle that renders that advantage moot. Xachariah fucked around with this message at 02:33 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 02:29
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Xachariah posted:The colour of the cards seems like an obvious red herring to make you spend garnets. The producers seem to like putting in hidden strategies that don't require you to spend any garnets. Like the dice in the last game, everyone was buying them to get good ones instead of swapping and reconfiguring them. EDIT: Remember, Sangmin only managed to make his loaded dice by using one of another players initial dice. Sangmin made his loaded dice by using 2 special dice + his even die + Junghyun's odd die. He had already bought 3 special dices. He had to buy at least 2 special dice, and find even/odd dice that matches those special dice (which means asking a couple of people for their odd/even die). The "right" strategy only required 1 special die, the matching odd/even die and a normal die, but still.
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Jan 21, 2014 04:39
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Does anyone know what the blue card at the start of the episode says? Right after the 'Fifteen!' intro thing.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:28
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How can you guys say that Jinho had to go all-in. Jinho should have realized what was up immediately and folded rather than throwing the match to luck. The only possible card on his head that would make Jiwon go all-in on the very first bet was also a 2 (barring the possibility that Jiwon is even more of an idiot than we assume). Jinho is at a massive advantage over the course of the match and letting the first pitch go past so he can get a better feeling for the rhythm and nature of Jiwon's game is a much better option. My guess is that he was thinking of a similar push against Jiwon's 2 and when the time came to bet he was in that mode of thought. Regarding the main match, I knew Sangmin was up to something immediately. And the second Junghyun was handed a die and said he had four different numbers on it, I knew what had happened. Running With Spoons posted:Sangmin made his loaded dice by using 2 special dice + his even die + Junghyun's odd die. He had already bought 3 special dices. He still could have borrowed or manipulated more the free dice for a win. He just used the special dice because he already had them.
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Jan 21, 2014 05:49
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I guess I'm out. I could be certainly be wrong but I'm way too suspicious of Sangmin having producer support to enjoy the show now that everybody I liked, and the possibility of Jinho overcoming that fuckery (imagined or not), are gone. And yeah, CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yeah, so this thread probably deserves a title change now.
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Jan 21, 2014 06:09
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I loving lost it in the death match haha holy poo poo. the loving double tie?! Are you loving serious?! Amazing music choice as well. I love this show.
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Jan 21, 2014 07:38
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The Radix posted:I guess I'm out. I could be certainly be wrong but I'm way too suspicious of Sangmin having producer support to enjoy the show now that everybody I liked, and the possibility of Jinho overcoming that fuckery (imagined or not), are gone.  if you think Jinho going out was the desired outcome. PRODUCERS! 
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Jan 21, 2014 07:52
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The show is still fun as hell, I just hope the subber stays on even if the other Starcraft celeb goes out as well. Also, anyone recognize the guitar tune that plays when the other elimination candidate is chosen ? It sounds a lot like Rodrigo & Gabriela but I don't recognize the song.
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Jan 21, 2014 07:53
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The idiots in this thread thinking Jinho should have rationally folded must be exceedingly awful poker players.
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Jan 21, 2014 08:02
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Tonfa posted:
Of course not. I'm not saying that it's scripted or that they control the entire game; just that I can't ignore the feeling that one particular player has been getting help. Providing one person with a single hint about a game's decisive secret, or providing them with favourable starting conditions (or a particular immunity clue reward), is enough to give them a ridiculous advantage that can be dressed up as "intuition" in editing.
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Jan 21, 2014 08:05
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Some games give the ones having a lot of garnets a huge advantage like last season's Expression Auction where you could buy a bid higher then anyone could have and now this one. And now Sangmin, the one man Garnet Chaebol even got the special dice he bought refunded after he won with those same dice. From what I saw it was not possible to make a 100% winning set without buying two special dice so anyone not having 10 garnets is screwed and most will probably lose the 5 they spent on one. Not that Sangmin is a not loving champ, he was the one to figure out first the dice could be taken apart and earns massive credit by choosing grandpa Junghuyn for immunity. It's just that the garnet imbalance makes it ever more unlikely for Sangmin to be taken to an elimination match, the normal threat to people with tons of garnets. He'll go into round 8 with 35 garnets, more then 3 times the rest combined and the immortality token.
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Jan 21, 2014 08:35
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Junghyun is being painted as so clueless that I'm hoping he makes the finals, then we get treated to flashbacks to every previous round that show he actually Keyser Sozed everyone.
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Jan 21, 2014 08:48
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CeeJee posted:Some games give the ones having a lot of garnets a huge advantage like last season's Expression Auction where you could buy a bid higher then anyone could have and now this one. You only need 5 garnets to have a secure win without anyone helping you. You can combine the special die and you odd/even die to show all 5s or 6s (depending on what die you have) and then turn you starting die so it only shows 3 and 4 which means you can win because you have 2 markers. As to the deathmatch, Jiwon played it to the best of his means. He knew he could not beat Jinho in a long drawn out fight so he went in for the kill. He originally only wanted to play with 5 garnets, which would have made his strategy even stronger.
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Jan 21, 2014 09:42
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Hate Jiwon all you want but he was really smart in the death match. Jinho would have probably destroyed him just like he destroyed Gura (and I think Songgyu if I'm not mistaken) last season. The all in yolo strat was too good but goddamn having a double tie was insane. Seriously like the odds on the first one were pretty crazy but for the second one? Even Jinho mentioned that odds of getting the same number were so ridiculously low. I loved the editing they made to that scene, I was seriously at the edge of my seat and went crazy when they finally revealed it (with the kill bill music!). God so good. These people know how to make a good tv show.
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Jan 21, 2014 10:26
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yeah, so this thread probably deserves a title change now. But Sangmin is The Genius though 
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Jan 21, 2014 14:48
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The odds they simultaneously make the worst hand on the first deal is 4/38 * 3/37 ~= 0.85% which is less than 1%. However, the odds get potentially much higher as the deck is dealt. Plus, this possibility exists on almost every deal. The odds of this happening over the 10 deals in a 40 card deck must be significant. The best strategy of both players when they know the other has the worst hand but they don't know their own card would be to continuously raise. Combine this with the rule that the pot continues in the event of a tie, and you make an already somewhat random game much more random. They really should pot split for ties or just increase the antes every x minutes if time is considered an issue. The extremely short stacks kind of sucks. It would be a lot better to give both players 50-100 chips each and scale the number of chips dependent upon the percent difference in garnet count. 15 chips is almost just coin flipping unless someone is just atrociously bad. comedyblissoption fucked around with this message at 15:01 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 14:56
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I don't think Jinho would agree that calling that all-in was the smart strategy 
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Jan 21, 2014 18:28
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Argue posted:Junghyun is being painted as so clueless that I'm hoping he makes the finals, then we get treated to flashbacks to every previous round that show he actually Keyser Sozed everyone. This is my hope personally 
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Jan 21, 2014 18:33
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I think he was just tired of the game. He frequently moaned the last few weeks about how tired he is and how he didn't like the atmosphere anymore. I think he just left it up to chance as his way of giving up.
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Jan 21, 2014 18:40
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Sheesh, what an episode. I'm so mad that Jiwon won there. I agree that having the bets rollover is a bs rule, and I lost it at the double tie. If Jinho had a pair at the end, the entire sequence would have been redeemed, but Jinho is absolutely one of my favorites and seeing him taken out by my #1 most hated player really stung. At least it took cosmic intervention to have Jinho lose, as he played the deathmatch game as well as he could have. I'll keep watching, of course, but going forward I'm rooting for Hongchul, Junghyun, and anyone who is against Jiwon. I like Sangmin's antics too, and he's the best player of the remaining field, but I do agree with the feeling that he's had a lot of advantages handed to him. I won't be rooting for him, but I won't be upset if he wins either, and he's always made it clear that he wants the prize money more than anyone.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:23
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The Radix posted:Of course not. I'm not saying that it's scripted or that they control the entire game; just that I can't ignore the feeling that one particular player has been getting help. Providing one person with a single hint about a game's decisive secret, or providing them with favourable starting conditions (or a particular immunity clue reward), is enough to give them a ridiculous advantage that can be dressed up as "intuition" in editing. You're being paranoid. (Spoilers for those who haven't started or completely caught up with the first season): In the animal chain game, other players selected their animals randomly before Sangmin; any of them could have easily chosen the snake. Sangmin lost the straight game. He wouldn't have found the token of immunity without Yohwan being completely stupid. In this latest episode, he discovered the die trick quickly on accident. The only thing I can think of as "super-lucky" for him was his starting condition for the 7 commandments game, which would have been surmountable if, again, Yohwan weren't so idiotic. And if Sangmin wins a lot, just keep in mind he's actually pretty intelligent...remember when he measured the stacks of the Sun, Star, and Moon chips to give Jiwon some help in a previous death match(although Jinho was a step ahead)? It's kind of like Sunggyu from last season...despite seeming less "game intelligent" at first, Sunggyu actually had an excellent grasp of the games themselves, and that led him to consistently win 1st place. Sangmin is definitely lucky sometimes, but I don't think much more so than anyone else. Plus, he's also just really good at the games. EDIT: Granted, all of that is sort of at the "word" of the show's editors/producers, and they would never air definitive proof of Sangmin getting extra help...but I still feel everything is easily explained without resorting to conspiracy theories. And it would just be a stupid risk for the producers to take...imagine the fallout if someone ever leaked that (and they DO leak stuff). Jay-V fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Jan 21, 2014 |
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Jan 21, 2014 19:45
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Yeah, personally I don't begrudge or cast doubt on Sangmin doing as well as he has. But seeing that dogfaced piece of poo poo Jiwon take out Jinho was just the breaking point, and every week that idiotic scumbag remains on the show just makes a mockery out of the show's title and premise.
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Jan 21, 2014 19:53
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yeah, personally I don't begrudge or cast doubt on Sangmin doing as well as he has. But seeing that dogfaced piece of poo poo Jiwon take out Jinho was just the breaking point, and every week that idiotic scumbag remains on the show just makes a mockery out of the show's title and premise. Well hey just consider this. There is probably a decent shot that Jiwon will have to face Doohee again, but with Doohee having power. So that's a reason to keep watching if nothing else.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:40
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comedyblissoption posted:
Well using a percent difference would have led to Jinho starting with...0 chips. Really the best bet he had was to try and negotiate the chip count up as much as he could, remember Jiwon originally wanted Jinho to borrow just one garnet so they would start with 5 chips.
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Jan 21, 2014 20:53
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Jay-V posted:EDIT: Granted, all of that is sort of at the "word" of the show's editors/producers, and they would never air definitive proof of Sangmin getting extra help... Right. I mean, yeah, I probably am being paranoid but all you've done is list the official version of events and said you agree with them, on a show which flaunts the power of editing with every episode.
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Jan 21, 2014 21:26
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CharlieFoxtrot posted:Yeah, personally I don't begrudge or cast doubt on Sangmin doing as well as he has. But seeing that dogfaced piece of poo poo Jiwon take out Jinho was just the breaking point, and every week that idiotic scumbag remains on the show just makes a mockery out of the show's title and premise. Jiwon totally deserved to win that death match. His play was spot on.
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Jan 21, 2014 21:30
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