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Mymla posted:IE games are pretty lovely to be honest. I recently played through BG2 for the first time, and while I agree it's a pretty good game, I will also say that it's one of the most overrated games I've ever played, and for every good thing it has there's a massive issue overshadowing it. People holding it up as the gold standard of gaming are only doing so because they were 13 and impressionable when they first played it. A game like BG2 with all the annoying crap cut out and the good bits improved, however, would be a really really good game. See the fact that you only just recently played it for the first time means that you didn't play it during it's original context of other games. If it came out as a game today, sure it would be pretty lovely by comparison to today's games. It doesn't matter if you were 13 or 30 at the time it came out, it was incredibly good compared to the other PC games of its day. flowinprose fucked around with this message at 17:39 on Feb 3, 2014 |
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Feb 3, 2014 17:35
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flowinprose posted:See the fact that you only just recently played it for the first time means that you didn't play it during it's original context of other games. If it came out as a game today, sure it would be pretty lovely by comparison to today's games. It doesn't matter if you were 13 or 30 at the time it came out, it was incredibly good compared to the other PC games of its day. Obsidian are releasing Project Eternity now, though, not the late 90s/early 00s. Everyone needs to update their expectations.
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Feb 3, 2014 17:48
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flowinprose posted:See the fact that you only just recently played it for the first time means that you didn't play it during it's original context of other games. If it came out as a game today, sure it would be pretty lovely by comparison to today's games. It doesn't matter if you were 13 or 30 at the time it came out, it was incredibly good compared to the other PC games of its day. He's not arguing that it wasn't good back then, COMPARATIVELY. He's saying that the people arguing it's godhead and wanting a modern game to stay true to it these days are being led astray by nostalgia. It's kinda funny you're responding to him by restating a summary of his post.
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Feb 3, 2014 17:48
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"People only liked BG2 because they were 13 and impressionable" (Mymla) and "people only liked BG2 in comparison to other games of its time" (flowinprose) are completely different arguments, actually.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:14
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NihilCredo posted:"People only liked BG2 because they were 13 and impressionable" (Mymla) and "people only liked BG2 in comparison to other games of its time" (flowinprose) are completely different arguments, actually. Thematically they're pretty similar. But I concede my original glib response. It was inappropriate and I apologize, flowinprose.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:16
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Drifter posted:Thematically they're pretty similar. Yeah, they're both wrong.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:26
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I still think the IE games hold up pretty well, despite not having modern conveniences. I wouldn't call anyone who likes them someone wearing the nostalgia goggles or anything like that, but some stuff will stick out and if you're used to following quest markers everywhere you'd probably be lost. THAC0 and Kits were kind of weird at first too. Plus there was the whole thing of Wizards become unstoppable gods at late levels. But all that was just AD&D stuff.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:27
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Baldur's Gate 2 isn't perfect by any means but saying it's "pretty lovely" by modern standards and that you had to be a teenager a decade ago to consider it amazing are really rather silly things to say. I only finished it a couple of years back and it trumps the vast majority of modern RPGs with ease in my opinion. Whether something is "overrated" or not is subjective obviously, but objectively speaking BG2 has aged far better than the vast majority of video games from that era. One obviously shouldn't copy the game as it is for the sake of "staying true to the original" but as far as games go I'd much rather have a lot of Baldur's Gate 2 in it than a lot of Dragon Age 2 or Kingdoms of Amalur or what have you. It shouldn't be like that but despite many improvements in visuals and user comfort, RPG quality hasn't exactly skyrocketed over the years because it's a difficult genre to make both deep and accessible. Kanfy fucked around with this message at 18:34 on Feb 3, 2014 |
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Feb 3, 2014 18:30
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Even as a diehard BG2 fan I'd say it's a good game in SPITE of AD&D not because of it. AD&D is garbage.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:34
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I hope there will be a companion in Eternity who fits the Jan Jansen/HK-47 profile of having absolutely no respect for their fellow party members and reminding them of it at every opportunity.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:35
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Captain Oblivious posted:Even as a diehard BG2 fan I'd say it's a good game in SPITE of AD&D not because of it. AD&D is garbage. Now this is true, especially the edition used in the BG games.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:38
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Drifter posted:Thematically they're pretty similar. But I concede my original glib response. It was inappropriate and I apologize, flowinprose. No offense taken. I may have taken Mymla's post the wrong way. It sounded to me like a statement about BG2 being overrated even in the context of its time (particularly the "13 and impressionable" part). It annoys me when I see statements about games being "overrated" when those statements are made by someone who didn't play the game in the landscape of other games at the time. Context is important. PoE should be treated in the same way, its context is now. I think Obsidian is well aware of this. Sure they want to make a game that invokes nostalgia of IE games for those that played them, but they are well aware of the flaws & limitations of the IE games and are doing a great many things to improve PoE in those respects.
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Feb 3, 2014 18:40
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I'm just glad games have mostly moved on from the ginormous UI panels that were common in the 90s.
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Feb 3, 2014 19:04
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I'll just be happy if there aren't twelve different versions of "dispel magic".
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Feb 3, 2014 19:07
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Captain Oblivious posted:Even as a diehard BG2 fan I'd say it's a good game in SPITE of AD&D not because of it. AD&D is garbage. In regards to the AD&D rules i kinda agree, in regards to the world i completely disagree.
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Feb 3, 2014 20:15
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Octo1 posted:Wait... if magic implements can be used pretty much like weapons, and anyone can use them, does that mean I can sneak attack with a wand?
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Feb 3, 2014 21:52
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Captain Oblivious posted:Even as a diehard BG2 fan I'd say it's a good game in SPITE of AD&D not because of it. AD&D is garbage. Bioware have always been terrible at mechanics though. If they didn't have AD&D to copy/paste in there's no chance the games would have been as playable and deep as they were.
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Feb 3, 2014 22:13
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My biggest beef with PS:T and BG is that when choosing a spell to cast in battle, you don't get a tooltip saying what exactly the spell does, so you'd have consult the spell book. I also wish Baldur's Gate had separated the lore from the mechanics in the verbose spell description. I think the most irritating aspects of the IE games are pinned down in these old articles: http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=227 http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=743 I have much higher hopes for PoE as its rule system is original and created especially for a videogame, like Fallout's SPECIAL, as opposed to being an adaptation of a tabletop game.
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Feb 3, 2014 22:42
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Octo1 posted:Wait... if magic implements can be used pretty much like weapons, and anyone can use them, does that mean I can sneak attack with a wand? Quaff fire resist potion from stealth. Backstab with a Wand. ***Your Wand of Fireballs Shatters***  
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Feb 3, 2014 22:52
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Mordaedil posted:The only class is "Adventurer" and your abilities are based on how you distribute your ability scores. Rename all the classes to "SWORD GUY"
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Feb 3, 2014 22:52
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Prokhor Zakharov posted:Rename all the classes to "SWORD GUY" No, just make them all wizards. Fight Wizard, Punch Wizard, Sneak Wizard...
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Feb 3, 2014 23:05
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The Crotch posted:I'll just be happy if there aren't twelve different versions of "dispel magic". I think the complexity of protections and counter-magic was pretty awesome. It made it much more interesting and tactical. It would be incredibly dull if Dispel Magic was a single, generic counter-magic and it does a roll each time. netcat posted:No, just make them all wizards. Fight Wizard, Punch Wizard, Sneak Wizard... This is actually my ideal RPG and really want someone to make it.
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Feb 3, 2014 23:08
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Inspector Gesicht posted:My biggest beef with PS:T and BG is that when choosing a spell to cast in battle, you don't get a tooltip saying what exactly the spell does,
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Feb 3, 2014 23:16
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Wingless posted:I think the complexity of protections and counter-magic was pretty awesome. It made it much more interesting and tactical. It would be incredibly dull if Dispel Magic was a single, generic counter-magic and it does a roll each time. 
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Feb 3, 2014 23:26
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Inspector Gesicht posted:I think the most irritating aspects of the IE games are pinned down in these old articles: The most irritating aspects of the IE games are the somewhat obscure nomenclature and that you don't get level-ups often enough? Those really sound like pet peeves to me. As an aside, what makes you appreciate the Fallout games' mechanics more than those of the IE games? They're well-made RPGs in the sense that there's good writing, interesting locales, compelling characters and fun scenarios in them, but the combat mechanics are dreadfully dull, the system is poorly balanced and has a lot of seemingly complex subsystems that only serve to obfuscate how stuff works in the game. For example, there's three different armor stats (+ different damage types, of course) that all basically have the same function: reducing the amount of damage you take, but in a slightly different manner. This could be relevant, I suppose, except that the different armors are so clearly tiered into the Worst->Bad->Good->Best progression that none of those stats matter, one type of armor is always better than another. And what about level-ups? Whee, I spent 15 skillpoints on Science and went from 30 to 45% -- ok, cool, what does that mean? gently caress if I know. (Perks were cool, though.) I mean, I guess the SPECIAL system is "better", if by "better" you mean there's no PnP nomenclature and the basic mechanic roll is a percentage roll instead of a d20, but that's a really shallow understanding of both systems.
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Feb 4, 2014 00:20
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verybad posted:For example, there's three different armor stats (+ different damage types, of course) that all basically have the same function: reducing the amount of damage you take, but in a slightly different manner. This could be relevant, I suppose, except that the different armors are so clearly tiered into the Worst->Bad->Good->Best progression that none of those stats matter, one type of armor is always better than another. Two of the different defensive stats (DR and DT) serve to make the even the relatively clear progression of armors have a very different slope against different broad weapon types that have similar nominal DPSs.
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Feb 4, 2014 00:43
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The Crotch posted:I think the redundancy and obfuscation was incredibly dull and I'd have been much happier with a couple dispel spells and converting the rest into something actually unique. I want a high-level spell that detonates any protective magic an enemy has.
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Feb 4, 2014 00:48
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The MSJ posted:I want a high-level spell that detonates any protective magic an enemy has. Do this and put it on a class that is melee focused.
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Feb 4, 2014 00:57
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Pwnstar posted:I hope there will be a companion in Eternity who fits the Jan Jansen/HK-47 profile of having absolutely no respect for their fellow party members and reminding them of it at every opportunity. Yes. I think that one conversation in BG2 when Viconia asks why you are adventuring with Jan and you reply with a rambling, blatantly false story of your own was a major high point. Some of the trolling dialogue in the IE games was so great I had to take it even when I was doing a paladin run. Definitely hoping for some party members with a sense of humor.
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Feb 4, 2014 01:07
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verybad posted:And what about level-ups? Whee, I spent 15 skillpoints on Science and went from 30 to 45% -- ok, cool, what does that mean? gently caress if I know. This got me thinking: The skill point system in most of the Fallout Games turns either into a direct percent chance to land a hit, a percentage roll to pass a check, or a flat number you have to beat to unlock something. The percent roll stuff is mostly just random chance that you can save-scum, which is not really good design, and the flat numbers to beat don't need percent points to work. In the modern games, accuracy is handled by the player, with the skill level mostly coming into play at a breakpoint that says whether or not you get a penalty to your accuracy. Those breakpoints are standardized, so locks, weapons, etc all require 0, 25, 50, 75 or 100 skill to use. This could be simplified into just buying ranks from 1 to 5, perhaps with a system similar to Mass Effect 2 or 3, where each rank costs more points, and your rate of points (to keep that SPECIAL "flavor") is based on Intelligence, but you're not dealing with situations like trying to distribute 1 out of 19 points between 13 skills for as little as a 1% increase in effectiveness, if any at all. It's still buying improved skills with points, but each purchase can translate into a much more clearly defined step, like you are a master of unlocking because you have rank 4 Lockpick, but a novice Speaker because you have rank 1 speech. marshmallow creep fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Feb 4, 2014 |
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Feb 4, 2014 04:06
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I have advocated coarser skill advancement, especially in games with a lot of characters, for several games. I think it usually works better and the investment feels more meaningful in a lot of CRPG environments.
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Feb 4, 2014 04:28
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Plenty of games have used systems like that. Arcanum, for instance, where having a persuasion of 5 was pretty hefty. I remember a fairly impassioned essay on this topic from one of the developers of Ultima 9, of all things. The downside of doing it this way is that it hurts the sense of gradually increasing power players have, since the acquisition necessarily needs to be a bit chunkier. On the flip side, it prevents a lot of gaming-the-system tricks - nobody raises computer skill by 3 points, because we know the vast majority of developers are going to make the skill thresholds multiples of 5 and probably multiples of 10. But you would raise a gun skill by 3 points, because the game gives you obvious feedback telling you that you're getting better at shooting the gun, in the form of increased hit percentages on enemies, etc. Really, it feels like there are some skills where adding a tiny fraction feels useful and helpful (combat skills), and some where it feels confusing and worthless (everything else). Maybe the right way is to divorce those more.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:02
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The MSJ posted:I want a high-level spell that detonates any protective magic an enemy has.
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Feb 4, 2014 06:22
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Uranium Phoenix posted:Underneath that it should say "IF YOU WANT A RANGER THAT FIGHTS IN MELEE WITH TWO SWORDS AND DOESN'T HAVE A PET, YOU ACTUALLY WANT A ROGUE" That's fine and dandy as long as there's no flavour/lore tied to the class name. What if I want a dual wielder who is also a loner woodsman? Do I pick 'rogue' for the mechanics? And if I do, am I then forced down distinctive class based subplots that are at odds with my character concept, like you are with the stronghold quests in BG2?
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Feb 4, 2014 06:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:Even as a diehard BG2 fan I'd say it's a good game in SPITE of AD&D not because of it. AD&D is garbage. 
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Feb 4, 2014 07:23
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bathroom sounds posted:That's fine and dandy as long as there's no flavour/lore tied to the class name. As a GM I've had to deal with players wanting to have a heavy full plate wearer specialize in sneaking and acrobatic tricks. And backstab with fireballs. And some point you have to think about the logical coherence of what the character claims to be and what they try to do and how they try to do it. Not all character concepts are equally viable or even logically coherent. What practical reason would a Woodsman ever have for dual wielding for instance? I know its  to grognardy point to make but sometimes for the sake of gameplay sacrifices must be made.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:45
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Wingless posted:I think the complexity of protections and counter-magic was pretty awesome. It made it much more interesting and tactical. It would be incredibly dull if Dispel Magic was a single, generic counter-magic and it does a roll each time. Except sometimes it wasn't very clear what school of magic a spell was, and you had to refer to the manual to figure it out, and that's a pain in the rear end. The games were lacking in the tooltip department and I'm really glad PoE fixes that (and also keeps it in Expert Mode for people who liked that).
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Feb 4, 2014 07:47
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Berk Berkly posted:As a GM I've had to deal with players wanting to have a heavy full plate wearer specialize in sneaking and acrobatic tricks. And backstab with fireballs. And some point you have to think about the logical coherence of what the character claims to be and what they try to do and how they try to do it. Not all character concepts are equally viable or even logically coherent. What practical reason would a Woodsman ever have for dual wielding for instance? I know its If you are running a narrative game (as opposed to a video-game on paper) there needs to be some kind of story-sense or there is no story.
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Feb 4, 2014 07:58
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idonotlikepeas posted:Plenty of games have used systems like that. Arcanum, for instance, where having a persuasion of 5 was pretty hefty. I remember a fairly impassioned essay on this topic from one of the developers of Ultima 9, of all things. Vampire Bloodlines went the minimalist way by capping derived skills at 10 and other skill/stats at 5. It worked really well, items all felt like an upgrade when you got them and every point spent below the cap did something. But there weren't that many different armours(5 total?), weapons, trinkets and no drugs at all. The more loot, buffs, potions, etc. that you have the bigger the minimum would need to be. Berk Berkly posted:What practical reason would a Woodsman ever have for dual wielding for instance? I know its
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Feb 4, 2014 08:15
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Woden posted:If I was I woodsman I'd have a machete and a knife to clean kills I'd guess, might as well put both to use if I had to go melee.  )
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Feb 4, 2014 09:04
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