|
Jay O posted:I don't have any reason to change the script addressing this, but boooooy is it not gonna win me any fans, because apparently it's a bigger bandwagon criticism than even I gauged. gently caress the "fans". You're right, and you know you're right.
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 07:15
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 07:21 |
|
|
Mokinokaro posted:And Nicolas Cage month ends with Ghost Rider 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 07:17
|
|
|
Attack on Titan has honestly handled characterization better than any anime I can remember. Granted, I haven't watched that much anime, but whatever. In most shows, I struggle to pick out a handful of characters I like out of I cast that I resent. In Attack on Titan, it's hard for me to think of a character I don't love (or at least love to hate). Krista, maybe? In the anime, all she's been is waifu bait thus far. Eren being an overly emotional and borderline psychopathic gently caress-up is what makes his character work. That, and the fact that he gets a Murder Boner like no other.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 07:42
|
|
|
Never realized the same guy who handled the Death Note anime is behind Attack on Titan as well. I can definitely see why the narrative dramatic flair attracted him to the project. I wasn't aware there was any sizable section of folks who were overly critical of the show. The few of my friends who pestered me into watching it did so on the heavy praise of the show spitting in the face of so many anime cliches. Namely the fact that every time a character is full of fighting spirit and rushes off to be a hero, Attack on Titan usually murders his rear end. And also like you said, JO, about them not going out of their way to hide secrets from the audience. Such as the incredibly obvious reveal of Annie being the female Titan. Everyone saw it coming almost instantly, but instead of the characters being dumb and blind to the twist, they saw through it quickly too. Meaning we could get to the implications of it faster, and boy was that more satisfying. I mean, to that end, I look forward to part 2 just to see what the heck people are being critical about. I'm not really in the whole Tumblr scene so that's all lost on me.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 07:53
|
|
|
mind the walrus posted:It's almost disappointing how no one managed to cobble together a reel of all the skimpy gimmick outfit Charmed commercials because they did those like every week for five straight years. The commercials are perhaps even more infuriating than the show. They blatantly made up stupid story lines that don't even happen when they had pre-existing stupid story lines they could already use. But yes, it was mostly to talk about how hot the girls were that week.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 10:10
|
|
|
The thing I never understood with the Charmed commercials was that wasn't the audience mostly female? Like by a lopsided margin? Maybe I'm just remembering it all wrong, but it always struck me as the gender flipped equivalent of playing up Face's "romance" of the week and Hannibal's awesome new outfit in A-Team promos.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 14:11
|
|
|
Jay O posted:Not really looking forward to fan reaction to the second half. Or more accurately, non-fan reaction, as that show is divisive because it's popular, and for once it's not the zealous fans I'm worried about, it's the zealous dissenters. Which never happens. But man, the stuff from the thumbs-down gallery on this show... The problem is that a ton of nerds can not handle characters with actual flaws because they put themselves in the leads. It's why Sherlock has flaws but the flaws tend to be "Well golly, he's just too darn smart/awesome for those normal people!". Someone brought up Evangelion and it's a really good point. EVA's not a masterpiece (in my opinion) but the sheer amount of people unwilling to even entertain the idea that Shinji might be, ya know, a kid with massive emotional issues crammed into a job that has the fate of the entire human race in has hands, instead of a whiny baby is baffling to me. These people want the most boring, disposable entertainment possible, that's not a bad thing, I love the Avengers, but they want absolutely everything else to conform to those standards as well.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 14:34
|
|
|
OldTennisCourt posted:The problem is that a ton of nerds can not handle characters with actual flaws because they put themselves in the leads. It's why Sherlock has flaws but the flaws tend to be "Well golly, he's just too darn smart/awesome for those normal people!". You mean they're a Brilliant But Lazy Deadpan Snarker in a Badass Longcoat who doles out Reason You Suck Speeches to the Jerk Jock villains left and right? 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 16:16
|
|
|
The thing I don't like about Attack on Titan is that it likes to meander a lot and the pacing is extremely uneven. I haven't watched the anime but the manga likes to have characters have these long, drawn out conversations that go on forever and by the end of them nothing is really resolved or if it is you can say "well, why couldn't they have said that in a couple pages?" It reminded me of Metal Gear Solid dialogue in the later games where they tend to repeat poo poo ad nauseam so people understand what's going on. You'll have some fierce action for half an issue then the next two would be absolutely glacial in its progression. I'm half and half with Erin myself. He really doesn't contribute much to conversations. He has some nice self-reflective moments but when it comes to understanding of all the events, he might as well be a block of wood in the background as the secondary characters move that plot forward more. I really like the manga, don't get me wrong, but it's pretty flawed and I find the author's "who are the real monsters" message pretty sophomoric at best.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 16:32
|
|
|
OldTennisCourt posted:The problem is that a ton of nerds can not handle characters with actual flaws because they put themselves in the leads. It's why Sherlock has flaws but the flaws tend to be "Well golly, he's just too darn smart/awesome for those normal people!". Someone brought up Evangelion and it's a really good point. EVA's not a masterpiece (in my opinion) but the sheer amount of people unwilling to even entertain the idea that Shinji might be, ya know, a kid with massive emotional issues crammed into a job that has the fate of the entire human race in has hands, instead of a whiny baby is baffling to me. These people want the most boring, disposable entertainment possible, that's not a bad thing, I love the Avengers, but they want absolutely everything else to conform to those standards as well. And then there's terrible fanfics like that Shinji and Warhammer 40K thing that turn him into the wish fulfillment character nerds wish he was.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 16:41
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:The thing I don't like about Attack on Titan is that it likes to meander a lot and the pacing is extremely uneven. I haven't watched the anime but the manga likes to have characters have these long, drawn out conversations that go on forever and by the end of them nothing is really resolved or if it is you can say "well, why couldn't they have said that in a couple pages?" It reminded me of Metal Gear Solid dialogue in the later games where they tend to repeat poo poo ad nauseam so people understand what's going on. You'll have some fierce action for half an issue then the next two would be absolutely glacial in its progression. Bless you for contributing negative criticism that is perfectly valid and doesn't make me lose faith in humanity. Although myself I like that Eren is dumb as a rock and seemingly doesn't listen to people around him or change very easily. Greatest strength and greatest weakness. He's impossible to corrupt or deceive, but he does a bang-up job deceiving himself and at this point in the story is rapidly losing sight of his own priorities. I hinted at in the review, but I feel like Eren's stubborn-wood-block character wouldn't work without the other two to balance him. But WITH those two around him, it makes him a stronger character, because all three of them have such grossly different reactions to every situation. Good example being when they realized Annie was the Female Titan. Armin is the first to realize it and gestates the longest on what to do about it, but his ultimate goal is understanding. She needs to be captured and plumbed for information. Armin is the least morally passionate of the three of them, he wants to understand all situations, even if they're terrible, from every angle before acting. Mikasa immediately wants to lop Annie's head off without trial for all the people she killed and hurt, most importantly Eren, for obvious reasons. She (not incorrectly) sees Annie as an enormous volatile threat, and if they'd followed her instincts, we'd have a lot less death on our hands, even if it's less than just and we wouldn't learn anything about the enemy. Eren is the most morally driven of the three, and can't bring himself to turn on a fellow comrade. His "us vs. them" binary understanding of being a soldier and good humans fighting the bad enemy titans breaks down. But ultimately, when his emotional dam about the whole thing caves in, it makes him the most violent and vindictive. And that's ultimately what gets the job done, with elements from his two friends' perspectives mixed in. (Mikasa's "the world is cruel and doesn't make sense" and Armin's "become a monster to understand/destroy a monster.") Pure, undiluted human outrage over being betrayed and hurt does Annie in, which, because she's like Armin and is all brains, is what she predicted would happen. Every episode is like that in Attack on Titan, simple characters with conflicts of interest smashing their values up against each other. I like that. Reminds me of Lord of the Rings. (And supposedly Game of Thrones is like that too, but I've yet to read/watch it.) Jay O fucked around with this message at 16:58 on Feb 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 16:41
|
|
|
In a way, the reaction to Eren doesn't really surprise me, in a way, since my first impression of him was "This guy is a lot like Shinji, if Shinji just loving snapped." I wouldn't say that's completely accurate (I'd probably say he's more like a combination of Shinji and Edward Elric's worst traits), but first impressions mean a lot, and so many nerds have the most irrational hatred of Shinji.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 17:33
|
|
|
Maremidon posted:And then there's terrible fanfics like that Shinji and Warhammer 40K thing that turn him into the wish fulfillment character nerds wish he was. I'd love for a show to have the most super badass nerd wish fulfillment character ever who has all the ladies after him but in the final episode it's revealed that he's in reality a massive tool who everyone hates and he made the whole thing up in his head.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
DStecks posted:In a way, the reaction to Eren doesn't really surprise me, in a way, since my first impression of him was "This guy is a lot like Shinji, if Shinji just loving snapped." I wouldn't say that's completely accurate (I'd probably say he's more like a combination of Shinji and Edward Elric's worst traits), but first impressions mean a lot, and so many nerds have the most irrational hatred of Shinji. The whole "Eren is a 50/50 combination of Shinji and Edward Elric" thing gets thrown around constantly. Which would be annoying. If it wasn't the most incredibly accurate way to sum up that character ever. Edward without the intelligence, Shinji without the inactivity.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 18:26
|
|
|
Jimbot posted:The thing I don't like about Attack on Titan is that it likes to meander a lot and the pacing is extremely uneven. I haven't watched the anime but the manga likes to have characters have these long, drawn out conversations that go on forever and by the end of them nothing is really resolved or if it is you can say "well, why couldn't they have said that in a couple pages?" It reminded me of Metal Gear Solid dialogue in the later games where they tend to repeat poo poo ad nauseam so people understand what's going on. You'll have some fierce action for half an issue then the next two would be absolutely glacial in its progression. Only seen the show (and am pretty sure the subtitles are a bit crap) but this is exactly my problem with the series. When I brought this up in an high-level academic seminar with my D&D group down the pub the answer I got was "Well, that's just culture shock. Japanese writing just tends to be like that." with MGS & Final Fantasy being used as examples. 1, I don't believe that two further examples of poo poo writing can accurately support that argument, and 2, All 7 year olds tend to write like crap - but I won't submit my niece's school projects for the Forward Prize and waive off criticism of it with "Well all 7-year olds write that way; you've just got culture shock." There are so many scenes that drag out for ages over explaining events (usually taking place in the characters own heads) that could be summed up with a couple of lines and a flashback. (That episode where the three of them are trapped under a giant skeleton and Armin stressing over him being worthless being one of them.) The pacing is so drawn out that a bunch of people planning an expedition that should take half an episode at most is dragged out over three, and when the troop returns from said expedition I did a double take when it was pointed out that they've only been gone one afternoon. I was like "Seriously? Coz I've been marathoning this stuff, and to me it feels like they've been out for frickin' months."
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 19:49
|
|
|
Yeah your D&D group down the pub is being reductive to the point of stupidity. Serial Japanese comics and anime does tend to use decompression more than US counterparts but nowhere near enough to qualify as so different that it's shocking. They probably confused your criticism with the way Japanese pop art tends to incorporate a lot more moments of reflection, quiet, and downtime as emphasis relative to US work. Uneven pacing is uneven pacing, regardless of culture.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 19:58
|
|
|
quote:The pacing is so drawn out that a bunch of people planning an expedition that should take half an episode at most is dragged out over three, and when the troop returns from said expedition I did a double take when it was pointed out that they've only been gone one afternoon. I was like "Seriously? Coz I've been marathoning this stuff, and to me it feels like they've been out for frickin' months." I get this. They take a while explaining the particulars of who's doing what, what formation they're using, who's in which unit, etc., and there are so many characters it can get kinda exhausting, especially if they're characters we don't care about yet. (Re-watching the initial training episodes is more rewarding than watching them the first time, because we care about the characters on a re-watch, but we don't know them at all the first time through.) Most of AoT's pacing problems could be solved with "don't introduce so many characters all at once in the new plot arc." As of the TV show material we've "known" Krista and Ymir for many episodes so far but still don't really have a reason to care about them. If you read the comics, they have *terrific* characters, some of the most complex in the story, but we don't know that yet, so time spent with them early on seems like time wasted. However... KayTee posted:There are so many scenes that drag out for ages over explaining events (usually taking place in the characters own heads) that could be summed up with a couple of lines and a flashback. (That episode where the three of them are trapped under a giant skeleton and Armin stressing over him being worthless being one of them.) I disagree here, and in every case in AoT where tension is being drawn out for character exploration, I think it's worth the time spent. I thought taking time carefully on the whole Armin has to convince a trigger-happy army not to blow Eren up while he's already dealing with huge personal guilt issues thing was really important. You've just had this huge plot bombshell dropped on everybody and it's important to fully explore everyone's reaction to it and just how hard it would be for two extremely emotional sides to come to a cease fire, particularly when even the person defending Eren is conflicted about it, and conflicted about himself. Good way to get character dev in there without ever stopping the main action story. Happens again later when Eren shuts down in Titan form and Mikasa and Armin both take their turns (and different approaches) in bringing his consciousness back. Lasts a whole episode. Worth it, though. (sorry to clutter the thread with AoT chatter. it's just really nice to discuss the pros and cons of this material with people who...aren't TGWTG commenters. or grouchy tumblr-ites. or trope-obsessed anime fans.) VVV Yeah, that whole "IMPERIALIZM" thing is one of the grouchy tumblr-ites topics. That and "Mikasa is a sexist character because she feels romantic love toward a man." Ugggggh... Jay O fucked around with this message at 20:20 on Feb 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:07
|
|
|
Jay O posted:(sorry to clutter the thread with AoT chatter. it's just really nice to discuss the pros and cons of this material with people who...aren't TGWTG commenters. or grouchy tumblr-ites. or trope-obsessed anime fans.) That's alright. As long as you don't derail the thread into stupid arguments like "Attack On Titan is protesting against the Japanese Government because of these few scenes." then it's fine. Think of this as a reviewer's commentary! 
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:15
|
|
|
I think the anime has the benefit of music and animation over the manga. The manga at times feels like I'm reading a novel of people sitting around and talking. It's a monthly or bi-monthly publication so when you wait a month only for the sitting down and talking poo poo to still be happening it gets a bit frustrating. Even if you marathon it, the pacing issues still stand out. Luckily meaningful development actually happens in these things more often then not but when nothing happens it's just a waste of time. Sometimes I think the writer loves his writing a bit too much. Brevity is something that would help out those situations immensely. I rather see events tie into a character's problem rather than a character babble on about them then having someone else point them out immediately after - at that point I just don't care because it's being shoved in my face. The latest issue has this problem and it's over something that wasn't really all well established either, so it was a double negative on top of that the issue before was friggan amazing. So yeah, the last issue, to me at least, was a whole lot of disappointing nothing with sprinkles of "oh, that was a nice character moment" on top. There's a manga of Kill la Kill out and people in that thread looked at it and said it wasn't that good because the strengths of the show (the kinetic animation, music and rapid pace of things) are lost in translation and you're just looking at still images of what was a ridiculous scene in the anime. It makes me realize that if there was a manga for the Ghost in the Shell series (Stand Alone Complex) I'd probably dislike it because there's a lot of spelunking and dialogue in that shot but because of everything else to support that it's actually a good watch. Jimbot fucked around with this message at 21:10 on Feb 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 20:21
|
|
|
Gyges posted:The thing I never understood with the Charmed commercials was that wasn't the audience mostly female? Like by a lopsided margin? Maybe I'm just remembering it all wrong, but it always struck me as the gender flipped equivalent of playing up Face's "romance" of the week and Hannibal's awesome new outfit in A-Team promos. I think it's because it was about hot girls, fashion, and relationships. I know Charmed did have a sizeable male fanbase, but those are things that are advertised toward women. It might also be part of the show thinking it was about women empowerment, like look at how cool these chicks are. When I said the promos invented storylines, I mean like they'd fabricate relationships just to make it seem like it was a romance story that week. Because y'know, what guy are they with?? Cole's big return when he never had a single scene with Phoebe? Edited to look like they're back together. The worst example was when this necromancer was summoning people they failed to save to haunt them, and the trailer changed the *title* to "I Dated a Zombie!?" and made it seem like it was about Phoebe having a zombie boyfriend.
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:03
|
|
|
I can't get how people could see Erin being pants on head retarded about things and not love it. I mean, he watches the Titans run train on his home without being hampered at all by their supposed protectors and his reaction is "I'M GOING TO LITERALLY KILL EVERY TITAN EVER". How do you not love that kind of realistic stupid teenager writing?
|
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 21:57
|
|
|
^^ I love the hell out of it, but I've always found revenge to the point of insanity more entertaining than standard heroism or morality. Jay O posted:That and "Mikasa is a sexist character because she feels romantic love toward a man." Ugggggh... Okay this? This makes me mad. I could honestly type a million words about how wrong that is, but I'll just sum it up with "you suck, tumblr" and leave it at that. t 
Silly Voodoo fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Feb 5, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 5, 2014 22:52
|
|
|
Tatum Girlparts posted:I can't get how people could see Erin being pants on head retarded about things and not love it. I mean, he watches the Titans run train on his home without being hampered at all by their supposed protectors and his reaction is "I'M GOING TO LITERALLY KILL EVERY TITAN EVER". How do you not love that kind of realistic stupid teenager writing? There's a reason people in ADTRW call his titan form the Rage Titan. He is a delightfully straightforward protagonist, fueled by genocidal fury and a thirst for vengeance. Also the Mikasa stuff is silly. What, does a "good" female character have to be asexual to not be sexist?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 00:41
|
|
|
Maybe this is a manga thing but watching the anime I've never had a sense that Misaka had romantic feelings toward Eren. I know she's extremely protective of him and all but unless I'm missing something, that alone doesn't equate to romantic love.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 00:51
|
|
|
Stall_19 posted:Maybe this is a manga thing but watching the anime I've never had a sense that Misaka had romantic feelings toward Eren. I know she's extremely protective of him and all but unless I'm missing something, that alone doesn't equate to romantic love. I'm pretty sure I've missed the last few manga chapters, but it's not in the manga either. I mean if you want to ship there's more for your dream Mikasa/Eren essays than most shipper pairings, but it's always been pretty obviously her own issues cemented onto a pretty normal caring about your sibling thing. Besides Jean already called whatever romance is left over after Ymir and Historia are done using up all the love.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 01:03
|
|
|
Also, hasn't the show reached the end of the manga at this point? Like isn't it gonna take a poo poo load of time for them to get enough stuff for a new season without resorting to a ton of filler?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 01:17
|
|
|
I have no shipping preference in that show. I don't know why people would ship characters in a show like AoT. Besides I like relationships like Eren/Misaka or Okabe/Mayuri from Steins;Gate, where a character is willing to go through hell for the sake of another character of the opposite sex without any romantic attachment. I was just confused as to why people would call Misaka sexist for having romantic feeling for Eren when I never got the sense that she loved Eren in that way.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 01:21
|
|
|
OldTennisCourt posted:Also, hasn't the show reached the end of the manga at this point? Like isn't it gonna take a poo poo load of time for them to get enough stuff for a new season without resorting to a ton of filler? The end of the anime is ~halfway through the manga at this point. A couple more months and there should be enough material for another season.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 01:22
|
|
|
Mr. Fowl posted:There's a reason people in ADTRW call his titan form the Rage Titan. He is a delightfully straightforward protagonist, fueled by genocidal fury and a thirst for vengeance. I kinda find Eren's staunch morality a bigger part of his character than people give credit to. I mean, yes, he's merciless and genocidal to a ridiculous extent when it comes to titans, he has to be because the story's biggest twist is that he IS one, and that's good conflict but his loyalty to and compassion toward other human beings is *intense*. He simultaneously rescues and inspires Armin and Mikasa on at least two separate occasions through extremely ballsy means that should have absolutely gotten him killed. And he holds an olive branch of understanding out to Jean and Annie when they're nasty to him, comrades in name only. The reason he starts so many fights with people is because of his passion for righteousness, not because he's a violent meanie-head. He doesn't like seeing people being less than what they're capable of. Stall_19 posted:Maybe this is a manga thing but watching the anime I've never had a sense that Misaka had romantic feelings toward Eren. I know she's extremely protective of him and all but unless I'm missing something, that alone doesn't equate to romantic love. Huh? I thought it was inescapable. I'm not a shipper, at all, but Mikasa is pretty obsessed with Eren. I mean, yes, he's her last living family member, and that's a biggie. But she's also in love with him. There's the revealing "You and I are...we're...we're family!" scene. There's the stalker-y anger she exhibits when she suspects he has feelings for Annie, there's just...boo-koos of evidence that she's not just protective of him because his family rescued her. In the manga, she has a borderline confession scene prompted by their potential imminent death. She doesn't say "I love you," but she does say "Hey, this is why I still have this ratty-rear end scarf" with a very specific look in her eyes. I could be proven wrong as the story goes on. But it seemed to me that she had a very romantically possessive attachment to Eren.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 02:09
|
|
|
Jay O posted:Huh? I thought it was inescapable. I'm not a shipper, at all, but Mikasa is pretty obsessed with Eren. I mean, yes, he's her last living family member, and that's a biggie. But she's also in love with him. There's the revealing "You and I are...we're...we're family!" scene. There's the stalker-y anger she exhibits when she suspects he has feelings for Annie, there's just...boo-koos of evidence that she's not just protective of him because his family rescued her. In the manga, she has a borderline confession scene prompted by their potential imminent death. She doesn't say "I love you," but she does say "Hey, this is why I still have this ratty-rear end scarf" with a very specific look in her eyes. I'm not an animeologist like many people here and I've only seen the cartoon on Netflix, but Mikasa rubs me the wrong way because she feels way too much like a wish-fulfillment waifu character. I mean, the last remaining Japanese woman who is 100% devoted to the main character and is also a tremendous badass who can kill groups of titans by herself? Come on.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 04:23
|
|
|
When I was watching it, I got the feeling that we're supposed to see that devotion as really unhealthy if not kinda hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 04:36
|
|
|
Jay O posted:Huh? I thought it was inescapable. I'm not a shipper, at all, but Mikasa is pretty obsessed with Eren. I mean, yes, he's her last living family member, and that's a biggie. But she's also in love with him. There's the revealing "You and I are...we're...we're family!" scene. There's the stalker-y anger she exhibits when she suspects he has feelings for Annie, there's just...boo-koos of evidence that she's not just protective of him because his family rescued her. In the manga, she has a borderline confession scene prompted by their potential imminent death. She doesn't say "I love you," but she does say "Hey, this is why I still have this ratty-rear end scarf" with a very specific look in her eyes. It's not that Eren's family saved her, it's that Eren himself saved her. He also used his psycho inspiration ability to awaken her inner killer. One of the things I like about Mikasa is that, at least the way I've read it, all those things are a combination of her love for her brother and her baggage of watching everyone else she's ever loved die gruesomely in front of her. Eren isn't just her brother, he's the last bit of "home", to use a completely inadequate phrasing. Eren, and by extension the scarf he gave her, is the one thing keeping her psyche afloat. Before him she'd given into her conclusion that life was just hunters and prey with her prey. and she's built him up not only as the one who saved her from that but also as a talisman against it. Armin seems to be working his way into being another crutch for her, but Eren is the cornerstone on which she's built her sanity. It all just reads to me like a super co-dependent sibling love. Annie wasn't just someone Eren might have had romantic interest in, she was about the only person encouraging Eren to keep at the soldier thing. In an incredibly hosed up way that only Eren would take as encouragement, but still support for the whole join the fight against the Titans effort. No one else in the class at that point was really even remotely pro Eren. Unless I'm misremembering.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 04:43
|
|
|
Scorched Spitz posted:When I was watching it, I got the feeling that we're supposed to see that devotion as really unhealthy if not kinda hosed up.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 04:49
|
|
|
Calaveron posted:I'm not an animeologist like many people here and I've only seen the cartoon on Netflix, but Mikasa rubs me the wrong way because she feels way too much like a wish-fulfillment waifu character. I mean, the last remaining Japanese woman who is 100% devoted to the main character and is also a tremendous badass who can kill groups of titans by herself? Come on. I actually agree completely which is why I was surprised at how little Mikasa bothered me. I wish I could say why though, because I'm drawing a blank.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 04:50
|
|
|
There seems to be a 50/50 split on that, which is what tumblr is obsessed with.  Thanks to having the context of other female characters in the story, (Annie, Krista, and Ymir are all well-written women,) as well as the overall themes that seems to be driving it, I think it's definitely meant to be seen as an obsessive crutch. It's supposed to be a little uncomfortable. It doesn't mean it's entirely unhealthy. Her love for/obsession with Eren is an important part of her character just like Eren's thirst for vengeance, and like Eren's obsession, it's both positive and negative. But it's *definitely* not shallow waifu wish-fulfillment. She's too much of her own person. Also, Armin has the exact same inferiority complex/obsessive attachment to Eren and Mikasa, and nobody cries "wish fulfillment sexism!" for him because, you know, he has a penis. The three of them have a strong codependence on one another, and that's what a lot of the story revolves around. They're like Body, Mind, and Soul, three parts of a full picture of humanity's strengths. It's been observed before, but the biggest key to understanding Mikasa's relationship to Eren is her reaction to him being dead. At first, she tries to carry on and fight the good fight and not react emotionally to the sudden loss, but it's not long before she just sort of shuts down and lies in an alleyway waiting to get killed. But, and this is a biggie: she can't. People who decry her as "omg sexist!" stop the dialogue at "she decides to let herself die because Eren's dead." *But she doesn't.* She finds herself fighting to survive even when she feels like she can't go on anymore, because that's who she really is. She even has an inner monologue saying "I'm sorry. I could never die for your memory, Eren." She doesn't *want* to live anymore, but she *does.* She decides to carry on with just his memory long before she finds out he's still alive. If he was never found alive at all, she still would have kept fighting, would have recovered. Armin on the other hand tries (twice!) to just let himself get killed in action, and agonizes over the fact that Eren died and he survived. The first time, he just shuts down, and the second time, he tries to disguise suicide as self-sacrifice and strategizing, and Mikasa sees through it and takes his blade away. Unlike Mikasa, he really does give up on life and probably would have died at some point in the near future if they'd never found out Eren was alive. Once again. If he had a vag. Everyone would be crying sexism. I wouldn't care about this so hard if it wasn't sort of like the whole Frozen bitchfest to me. Frozen (and Attack on Titan) have very well-written female characters for animation. So when you have a little victory like that and people cry sexism over it, it's frustrating, because it discourages writing complex female characters with strengths *and flaws.* Jay O fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Feb 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 05:05
|
|
|
Jay O posted:Also, Armin has the exact same inferiority complex/obsessive attachment to Eren and Mikasa, and nobody cries "wish fulfillment sexism!" for him because, you know, he has a penis. I'd say it's more because characters like Armin-- weaker-willed male sidekick types with massive co-dependency issues who inevitably come through in service of the protagonist's goals-- are much more commonly seen and well-done than hypercompetent racial unicorns whose actions are almost invariably motivated by helping the primary protagonist out of obsessive love. That's not to say Mikasa doesn't elevate herself above such a reductive description. She totally does. But I can see where the criticism comes from-- on paper Mikasa totally shouldn't work. mind the walrus fucked around with this message at 11:30 on Feb 6, 2014 |
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 05:14
|
|
|
....why the gently caress is anyone comparing an anime about children fighting 50-foot-tall cannibalistic giants to a modern British detective drama?OldTennisCourt posted:The problem is that a ton of nerds can not handle characters with actual flaws because they put themselves in the leads. It's why Sherlock has flaws but the flaws tend to be "Well golly, he's just too darn smart/awesome for those normal people!". I don't know how you could watch three seasons of Sherlock and come to that conclusion, but hey, as Jay O has also demonstrated, one must always respond to an attack on one fandom with another fandom ("Wahhh, you don't like Attack on Titan, you just like dumb nerdbait like Sherlock!") Sorry, I'm not sure when the memo went out that Sherlock was no longer this underground intelligent and highly awarded drama was now wanky and lame. I'll update my hipster list accordingly.
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 06:22
|
|
|
Rebochan posted:I don't know how you could watch three seasons of Sherlock and come to that conclusion, but hey, as Jay O has also demonstrated, one must always respond to an attack on one fandom with another fandom ("Wahhh, you don't like Attack on Titan, you just like dumb nerdbait like Sherlock!") You realize there's a movie series called Sherlock Holmes starring Robert Downey Jr. that they're talking about, right?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 06:45
|
|
|
Rebochan posted:Sorry, I'm not sure when the memo went out that Sherlock was no longer this underground intelligent and highly awarded drama was now wanky and lame. I'll update my hipster list accordingly. When was Sherlock underground? Sorry, I wasn't aware Coupling, League of Gentlemen and The Office were kept secret on threat of hipster wrath. If you're curious about British TV shows (and to stay vaguely on topic), here's Mike J talking about Garth Marenghi: http://blip.tv/mikejtv/garth-marenghi-s-darkplace-a-retrospective-6511051
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 07:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? Apr 27, 2024 07:21 |
|
|
 What in the world is going on in this thread?
|
|
#
?
Feb 6, 2014 07:59
|
|
