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Task Manager posted:If those El-drat Melachim kill our kids or Naomi, guess I know what my life long goal for Enkidel will then be. Query: We are Enkidel. We have repeatedly, and to our own detriment, experimented by pushing at the boundaries of the world, and the only reason we (barely) stopped was because we were repeatedly told (and it was repeatedly demonstrated) that it would be bad for us personally. Once we get old enough that we won't be at real personal risk when mucking about with magic, I don't imagine this inquisitive side is going to die down any time soon. So look at it from the perspective of the Melachim. We're already something of a loose cannon. Any kids we make (and in turn, any kids THEY make) will be an entire 'nother set of loose cannons ready to plunge through the decks of the ship, potentially capable of cracking the world open or at least doing extremely serious damage, perhaps even without intending to. What options, exactly, do the Melachim have? If they don't act, they'll be dealing with an immensely powerful, unpredictable, destabilizing force in the world. What would you consider a reasonable way of dealing with an entire family of people as crazy as Enkidel and as powerful as Labaras? Do you really think we - and all our progeny from now until the last of our line - are going to prove perfectly amenable to sweet reason? I'm serious, what options do the Melachim have here? List 'em out, let's see how many of them are feasible and would make sense to attempt for every single person of our Blood through the centuries.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:14
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I vote I.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:15
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Angela Christine posted:Don't worry guys, we're a cosmic bad rear end. It doesn't matter if we cut off our balls. In a few years, when our blood matures, we'll be able to pull kids fully formed out of our forehead and poo poo. Honestly, that is one of my thoughts. We made Snarls what he is. We may, one day, be able to do something similar to a human. That way, it's far more controllable than, say, having ten kids per generation, each of whom...
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Feb 13, 2014 01:17
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Labaras was a powerful worldbreaker, and this same threat of evil worldbreaking children would have been exactly as valid then for him as it is for us. You can look through the ages of man and see that while there were certainly evil blooded men, it was on the whole a good thing - they pushed back the wilderness and the demons, and man actually has a place in the world now. Here is the second coming of man. We should follow in Labaras's footsteps.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:20
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Voting I 
White Noise Marine fucked around with this message at 01:24 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 01:20
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Voting I.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:21
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Tomn posted:Query: We are Enkidel. We have repeatedly, and to our own detriment, experimented by pushing at the boundaries of the world, and the only reason we (barely) stopped was because we were repeatedly told (and it was repeatedly demonstrated) that it would be bad for us personally. Once we get old enough that we won't be at real personal risk when mucking about with magic, I don't imagine this inquisitive side is going to die down any time soon. Except we don't know anything about "them". Ishmael won't tell us anything about the people who don't want us to have kids. He won't tell us if they're reasonable or even what they are. We know basically nothing, except that he's afraid. I don't think we should base our decisions off of someone telling us what to do and providing us with no information about it.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:23
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El dammit, Naomi is imaginary and Diog has enough "not being a drat creep" to spare us the details, you don't need to be afraid of this. Not having kids scores a point for the bad guys. Changing my vote to I
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Feb 13, 2014 01:29
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Tomn posted:I'm serious, what options do the Melachim have here? List 'em out, let's see how many of them are feasible and would make sense to attempt for every single person of our Blood through the centuries. 1) Kill Enkidel. Stops the problem now, with no exponential growth of super Enkidels. If for some reason we are unkillable (very likely in my opinion, since they surely would have by now with how much mucking we have done)... 2) Level with us. The old tales speak of Smattas' directly telling that one city to cut poo poo out. Ishamal says we will be told one day if we get too far out of line by "them". If this is truly so dire, speak with us! Come down from on high and say "Don't have any kids you headcase!". Done. No kids. I would change my vote for that, even if I didn't want to, because they directly warned us to stop. 3) Do nothing. Results in, eventually, the end of the world. (I agree, unchecked, Enkidel's grandkids, or great grand kid, or great great grandkid, is going to blow up the world. Definitely see the Melachim's point about that, they can't do nothing.) 4) Cryptically tell us nothing directly but half truths and maybes, and then one day swoop in and kill our loved ones. Is that really the best they can come up with? Like I said in my other post, I get that the Melachim have to do something if we choose to procreate. If they think the best solution is to murder our whole family because of what WE did, and still tell us little of who/what/when/where/why, I do not want to listen to a group such as that. Task Manager fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 01:30
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WhiteOutMouse posted:Ask: Didn't see a response to my question. I know you have been busy, no biggie.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:30
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will blow your mind.
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:Except we don't know anything about "them". Ishmael won't tell us anything about the people who don't want us to have kids. He won't tell us if they're reasonable or even what they are. We know basically nothing, except that he's afraid. I don't think we should base our decisions off of someone telling us what to do and providing us with no information about it. Ishamal being afraid of something is a big deal. Dude is the biggest badass we know.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:31
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Numeron posted:Labaras was a powerful worldbreaker, and this same threat of evil worldbreaking children would have been exactly as valid then for him as it is for us. The Blood of Labaras grows thin. I believe it was implied by Ishamal that our descendents would match us in power. Not an exact comparison.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:34
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Mr. Wednesday posted:Ishamal being afraid of something is a big deal. Dude is the biggest badass we know. Based on what he has and hasn't told us, Ish is afraid because he was in our situation (or one similar) and failed, and has had centuries if not millennia to stew in his guilt. We wouldn't be much of a hero if we weren't capable of eventually surpassing our teacher and succeeding where he couldn't.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:34
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the_steve posted:Based on what he has and hasn't told us, Ish is afraid because he was in our situation (or one similar) and failed, and has had centuries if not millennia to stew in his guilt. 'succeed' in what, not having kids that go off track? How do you plan on monitoring all our children, grandchildren, great-grandchilren etc etc to make sure everyone stays on the straight and narrow? Sounds like a fun game
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Feb 13, 2014 01:36
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Numeron posted:Labaras was a powerful worldbreaker, and this same threat of evil worldbreaking children would have been exactly as valid then for him as it is for us. Just to be clear, the only indication we have that Labaras and his descendants were a net good for the world or a net good for humanity are stories told by those descendants and the people they rule over. We grew up in a small town with no mighty men. We fed one or two people to ashera per year, apparently, mostly the ill, elderly, or badly injured. Ashera provided ample fishing, far in excess of what we saw in an unclaimed area. Ashera protected the village from all monsters, including eyescreams. It was not that bad, really. The horse nomads apparently get along without the gifts of Labaras too. Maybe we should visit them one day to see how they manage.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:37
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Task Manager posted:-snip- I agree, but I don't really see how this leads to having kids? It won't fix any of this, just make it worse.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:39
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Mr. Wednesday posted:'succeed' in what, not having kids that go off track? How do you plan on monitoring all our children, grandchildren, great-grandchilren etc etc to make sure everyone stays on the straight and narrow? Sounds like a fun game Honestly, I think whatever storm that comes will take care of that before it becomes an issue. Unless we are the storm that comes. In which case, whelp.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:44
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Task Manager posted:Level with us. The old tales speak of Smattas' directly telling that one city to cut poo poo out. Ishamal says we will be told one day if we get too far out of line by "them". If this is truly so dire, speak with us! Come down from on high and say "Don't have any kids you headcase!". Done. No kids. I would change my vote for that, even if I didn't want to, because they directly warned us to stop. This is an excellent point. It's also extremely suspicious how Ishamal didn't warn us off dalliances before now, despite us having ample opportunity. I like Ishamal, and if he's telling the truth then having children would be doing the equivalent of handing out briefcase nukes on the street, but this smells. Hell, Jorah Mask has also had ample opportunity to tell us to remain celibate, and failed to do so. Something's up here.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:44
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I think we might be able to make a bargain with the Melachim eventually. I think we're basically the same thing Labaras was. We are being told that our children would be exactly as powerful as us, but that wasn't the case with him. I'm assuming the Grigori are responsible for the thinning bloodline of Labaras. If we can track one of them down, we can make a bargain and allow them to do the same with our bloodline: we're going to have kids, and raise them to be just, but they can pare it down over the eons so that each successive generation (that consequently has less access to our direct tutelage) is a little less dangerous.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:45
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Ralith posted:This is an excellent point. It's also extremely suspicious how Ishamal didn't warn us off dalliances before now, despite us having ample opportunity. I like Ishamal, and if he's telling the truth then having children would be doing the equivalent of handing out briefcase nukes on the street, but this smells. It's also weird he encouraged our marriage earlier; and gave us the gift of a badass blessed weapon that implied he wanted to help us grow to full Might—since let's face it, we'd have to be crazy Mighty to use that thing. To go from that to 'I should probably kill you, you should probably stem your might, you should DEFINITELY not have kids' is a major jump. I think his orders might have changed, or something might have scared him. Man I wish the dude would just be straight with us for once.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:47
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We also can pull out the first few while when we have sex, or not have vaginal sex, and tell Naomi that we're not quite ready for kids. We don't have to have kids right away, we're not Catholics from the 1800s.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:48
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Absum posted:I agree, but I don't really see how this leads to having kids? It won't fix any of this, just make it worse. I guess in general I kind of argued more that the Melachim have other better options in dealing with our decision to procreate, and I want nothing to do with a group that their first option is to murder our loved ones. More specifically to what else can the Melachim do if our kids start covering the land and they are as powerful as Ish warns? ...nothing. If they allow our kids to procreate past, oh, say past our grandchildren, and they are as Ur-shattering as prophesied, the world will change. There will be a new status quo. I'm just arguing they have much better options right now to prove how bad this could be, than up and murdering our family one morning.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:50
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Numeron posted:Labaras was a powerful worldbreaker, and this same threat of evil worldbreaking children would have been exactly as valid then for him as it is for us. Two points: Firstly, Labaras entered a world that didn't have a lot particularly worth preserving (for humanity, anyways). Even if he hosed up, how much would have been lost? Secondly, perhaps the experience of Labaras is precisely why the Melachim are so cagey now? There's definitely hints of dissension among Labaras's grandsons How much do we really know, now, about what happened when the world was young? How much was lost, and how much was at risk before the Melachim undertook drastic measures - drastic measures which they may well prove willing to repeat? Mexican Deathgasm posted:Except we don't know anything about "them". Ishmael won't tell us anything about the people who don't want us to have kids. He won't tell us if they're reasonable or even what they are. We know basically nothing, except that he's afraid. I don't think we should base our decisions off of someone telling us what to do and providing us with no information about it. Hypothetical scenario: Suppose that Ishamal is guarding a bunker that holds the command room for a series of fully armed and operational ICBM silos all across Ur. Ishamal happens to know exactly what ICBMs are, how to control them, and what they can do and even how they do it. We roll up, ignorant of all this. Let's say in this scenario Ishamal has no power to actually stop us going into that command room and fiddling as we desire - all he can do is talk to us. What exactly should he say? Sure, he might tell us the precise nature of what we're about to enter - but that carries the not insignificant risk that we'll decide to experiment anyways, but with greater knowledge of how to achieve results instead of just flipping a few switches for no real effect, or even worse: that we might actively decide to make use of it. ("A great and powerful weapon, you say? Hey, let's try it out on those jerks in Ibleam!") There ARE situations where vague warnings can make sense if the actual knowledge itself is dangerous. You might say that we are trustworthy, that we would use the knowledge wisely, but let's be honest: Would YOU trust us with the Big Red Button? Task Manager posted:2) Level with us. The old tales speak of Smattas' directly telling that one city to cut poo poo out. Ishamal says we will be told one day if we get too far out of line by "them". If this is truly so dire, speak with us! Come down from on high and say "Don't have any kids you headcase!". Done. No kids. I would change my vote for that, even if I didn't want to, because they directly warned us to stop. Two points: First, the old tales also speak of that city directly ignoring each and every proclamation to cut that poo poo out right up to the point where they were smote. If that is an actual scenario in the history of the Melachim, it is unlikely to make them confident about the virtues of persuasion. Second, apparently these Melachim work in council, and right at this moment there is likely a debate storming amongst their number about whether they should just send a killsquad right the gently caress now or whether they should try to exercise some form of mercy - and it is likely that any attempt to act independently and contact us directly right now would be seen as a form of forbidden interference, which could upset who-knows-what political situation they have up there, perhaps going so far as to trigger all-out war in the heavens. It's entirely possible that there are in fact Melachim busily arguing that they should do exactly what you suggest, while more terrified or pragmatic Melachim argue that they should simply kill us now and be done with it. Given time, perhaps the voices of mercy would win out and they would send a messenger - but there is NO TIME. We get married TOMORROW. The superbabies begin IMMEDIATELY. The Melachim have barely just realized that a world-breaking threat even exists, let alone what to do about it, and then suddenly we start having more potentially world-destroying babies. That's going to ramp up the rhetoric, badly, in favor of those arguing for a decisive, immediate, and violent solution. I'll also add that from what Ishamal has said, I doubt the Melachim are at all involved in what Ishamal is talking about. It seems like something he's done entirely on his own initiative to make us more palatable to the Melachim, and overall less likely to warrant killsquads or other harsh measures. Edit: Put it another way - suppose that we goons, in this CYOA, are told that Billy has the power to potentially destroy the world, and that this power passes through his blood one-for-one, with his children as strong as he is. Six hours into our debate, before we've finished voting, Diog posts that while we were arguing, Billy went ahead and impregnated a woman - and that time will continue passing in Ur in a form of "real-time" from now on, albeit much speeded up. The longer we argue, the more Billy will do, either to break the world or to make babies that can break the world. What would goons vote for? What would the Madgod vote for? Tomn fucked around with this message at 01:57 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 01:51
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Azzazel and Ishamal are often cryptic, but they're the best sources of information we've ever had. Ishamal is saintly, and Azzazel just wants to have fun. Azz is totally a bro. Ishamal has saved our life, warded our mind, helped us woo our bride, given us good counsel time and again, and is willing to risk catastrophe because of his love for us. So when he says it will save us and the world incredible anguish, devastation, and death, let's listen to him. Especially when Azzazel confirms his info.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:52
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I have to wonder why Tudiya and Dream Jorah don't want us getting stronger. From the sounds of it, we and our children would have unlimited potential, unlike Tudiya whose power level has likely peaked. Yeah, Ish says we would crack the world, but how? Is it some anti-spiral poo poo where we'd just get so powerful that reality would implode on itself trying to sustain us? Or is it because the actual bad guys/end boss of the world are content to not make a move so long as we cap our own potential, and if it does come down to a fight, mankind wouldn't survive the collateral damage, regardless of whether we win or lose? Ishamal may have the best intentions at heart, but he's admittedly been wrong before. We have to at least try instead of just giving up.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:54
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FoxTerrier posted:It's also weird he encouraged our marriage earlier; and gave us the gift of a badass blessed weapon that implied he wanted to help us grow to full Might—since let's face it, we'd have to be crazy Mighty to use that thing. I believe the key difference now is that we have been noticed by powers which previously did not know we existed. Previously, we were an unknown unknown to many of the great powers. We are now a known unknown.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:55
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Vavrek posted:I believe the key difference now is that we have been noticed by powers which previously did not know we existed. Previously, we were an unknown unknown to many of the great powers. We are now a known unknown.
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Feb 13, 2014 01:56
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Man, you tell goons not to do something to save the world. I GUESS WE'D BETTER DO IT. 
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Feb 13, 2014 01:58
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Task Manager posted:Not trying to be cool, honestly. Just, if they actually have the nerve to carry out something like that, they're the bad guys. Period. Tudiya could mentally enslave all of Zepath full-on Land Between Rivers style if he put his mind to it, according to Ishamal. Enkidel and those of his bloodline will far surpass that level of magic ability. One of his future sons or grandsons could rule Ur like a god or destroy reality itself. Eventually, far down the line, our blood will spawn such a Mesopotamian Hitler. From a Melachim's perspective, the death of a single innocent person is much more ethical than risking to unleash a tyrant onto Ur. Reading the Old Tales, it seems the Melachim are loathe to smite humans and will only use it as a last resort. Smattas only leveled a city when its citizens continued to worship him after repeated warnings. We've already received a warning from Ishamal that having children that are biologically ours is foolish, and a second warning from Azzazel that running away from or fighting against a Melachim will only result in our death. We're incredibly well-informed about the situation. Imagine that we had chosen to start out as a Melachim at the dawn of time, and that we were listening in on the conversations that this half-demon child is having. The child learns it is inevitable that some of his biological children will turn wicked, that his every action is being monitored, and that the people doing the monitoring know everything and can't be beaten in combat. Yet he still decides he wants to have children that are biologically his. Would you honestly expend energy on trying to convince the kid that what he's doing is foolish? I wouldn't.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:01
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Vavrek posted:I believe the key difference now is that we have been noticed by powers which previously did not know we existed. Previously, we were an unknown unknown to many of the great powers. We are now a known unknown. Yeah, but he had to have known we were going to be noticed one day. It was inevitable. So it's still a big switch to go from: I'll help arrange your marriage! Here, use this heroic mega-club! All the way to: Curb your growth! Don't have kids! Should really kill ya, to be honest! Super-Babies and mega-power were always going to be an issue, ya know? Why get spooked now? Did the council not react to us the way he expected, I wonder?
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Feb 13, 2014 02:03
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Tomn posted:
He could speak about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he could tell us about WWII, he could take about explosives and rocketry and mutually assured destruction, he could talk about tons and tons of poo poo, not just "HEY! I'm not to tell you anything about about what the command room does, or modern weaponry, or history, or anything at all, BUT DON'T YOU TOUCH THAT BUTTON!" Oh, and then he tells us to put our index fingers into a garbage disposal to make sure we can't ever touch that button. Mexican Deathgasm fucked around with this message at 02:07 on Feb 13, 2014 |
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Feb 13, 2014 02:03
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FoxTerrier posted:It's also weird he encouraged our marriage earlier; and gave us the gift of a badass blessed weapon that implied he wanted to help us grow to full Might—since let's face it, we'd have to be crazy Mighty to use that thing. We were an unknown factor to a great extent, then we pulled that poo poo with the demon. I bet that was the worst of all possibilities as far as the potential destruction we could cause eventually.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:05
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Grognan posted:Man, you tell goons not to do something to save the world. I GUESS WE'D BETTER DO IT. 
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Feb 13, 2014 02:06
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Mexican Deathgasm posted:He could speak about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, he could tell us about WWII, he could take about explosives and rocketry and mutually assured destruction, he could talk about tons and tons of poo poo, not just "HEY! I'm not to tell you anything about about what the command room does, or modern weaponry, or history, or anything at all, BUT DON'T YOU TOUCH THAT BUTTON!" Again, the danger is that if he DOES tell us about all that stuff, we walk away with exactly the wrong conclusions. Like, say, "Mutually assured destruction, eh? But you say that only works if the other guy has these n-ooks, too? So...I could basically hold the world hostage to my whims?" Or possibly "Rockets and explosives, eh? That gives me a TON of interesting ideas! Lemme go test them out!" Or perhaps "I don't really believe you. I'm going to go in there to follow the instructions you have me to launch one of these things, maybe I'll believe you then." Or even worse, "Hey, wait, wait, wait, go back to that bit about racial purity and nationalism again, that sounds interesting." Sure, we probably think we will be able to handle all that easily. But even assuming we were correct, how would Ishamal know that? He might hope that if we remain ignorant, then even if we do turn to malice we'd only be flailing around randomly with a relatively low chance of unlocking the activation codes before the Melachim hitsquads arrive.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:10
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Vavrek posted:Man, almost makes me feel like I was there. Hey, as I recall, holding the gate worked out pretty well. The only downside was bringing into existence an egocentric douchebag godbaby. And even then, we all either got superpowers of some sort, eternity in a paradise of our choosing, the freedom to keep the party eternal and wander to our schizophrenic clown heart's content, a successful life as a fish, or eternally falling. Ok, so eternally falling would be the one outlier here, still not a bad spread.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:14
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Tomn posted:Again, the danger is that if he DOES tell us about all that stuff, we walk away with exactly the wrong conclusions. If he thinks so incredibly little of us after the years we have spent in the city trying to be good people, then why in the hell should we trust him? At the very, very least we've shown ourselves not to be sociopathic (except when it comes to owning other people). If he honestly thinks that as soon as we were given the very bare minimum of details that we would go about trying to destroy the world, he is seriously hosed in the head.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:14
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Vavrek posted:The Blood of Labaras grows thin. I believe it was implied by Ishamal that our descendents would match us in power. Not an exact comparison. Implied? When? Why would our blood not get weaker through generations? Thats what happens as families spread out, they incorporate more and more genetic material from many other families. As common blood mixes in with our progeny, it will dilute our blood just like Labaras's. Angela Christine posted:Just to be clear, the only indication we have that Labaras and his descendants were a net good for the world or a net good for humanity are stories told by those descendants and the people they rule over. No, not just that - we can also look at the state of the world as it is now. The world survived without an apocalypse occuring as a result of Labaras's kids - and his descendants now control a not-insubstantial amount of otherwise monster filled wilderness - and thats a net gain is it not?
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Feb 13, 2014 02:18
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Enkidel: "Help! HELP! My children are going to be WMDs" Goons1-4: "Well, let's not have kids then" Enkidel: "I'm thinking I should have kids... should I have kids?" Goon5: "NO! We could totally destroy the world!" Goons6-8: "Let's get sterilized" Goon9: "It won't even make us weaker" Enkidel: "I can see your point, but someone told us something to do and I don't want to do that, should I have kids?" Goon10: "No! If you have kids, the Melachim are going to murder us. We aren't coming back from the dead like that other COYA" Enkidel: "I'm going to talk to the batshit Melachim about my problems" Goons11-18: "No! We really shouldn't have kids" Enkidel: "Guys, let me tell you about my theory that El is trapped by the Melachim" Goon19: "I was a demigod trapped in a dilemma once. It took me two years, but I managed to grow up and survive in world that hated me for a good ending. I'm dropping down some advice, a vote, and some sanity." Goon20: "I've engineered a retard proof plan that won't gently caress us over"" Enkidel: "Thanks for your help, guys. I'm gonna have kids and it'll turn out great." **Goons1-20 piss on Enkidel** Goon21: "Guys, seriously... stop peeing on Enkidel.""
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Feb 13, 2014 02:21
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The winner seems pretty clear. I said voting would close at 9:00 pm US East time, which is 40 minutes, but I'd like to do the update to give us a little more time tonight. Not being snipped is the clear winner. Still, if anyone who is anti-snipping wants, we will wait the full 38 minutes till the buzzer. Fair is fair, anyone who voted against snipping who wants to delay the update another 38 minutes, speak up now.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:22
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I vote "J". Edit: BAH.
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Feb 13, 2014 02:23
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