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It's been a long time since I posted on this forum. It seems like a lot of the same stuff is going down. I have a question that's going to sound really stupid. has anyone ever seen a novel or book or short story do fights that are over the top anime style, but work in the correct manner? I'm not setting out to do this and I've pretty much written the idea that it could work off as being silly. I come across so many new science fiction and fantasy writers who seem to make this their goal and there just doesn't seem to be any examples to point to or any way to say that it would not work.
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Feb 22, 2014 07:53
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Snowcrash has some pretty anime action scenes.
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Feb 22, 2014 11:25
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:It's been a long time since I posted on this forum. It seems like a lot of the same stuff is going down. Mistborn is a trilogy with combat mechanics that are meticulously explained and documented in appendices. People get superpowers by drinking metals (Pewter makes you super-strong and fast, iron and steel make you Magneto, etc). The fights can get quite intricate. Actually if you want to read something like anime, there's a whole imprint of books for you. MM9 is straight-up a kaiju novel, Battle Royale is Battle Royale, Yukikaze is fighter planes vs aliens, All You Need Is Kill is coming out as a movie this year.
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Feb 22, 2014 13:59
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If you're gonna have "over the top anime" fights in a piece of writing, remember this one thing: Don't. (or if you must, remember that you are forced to walk the line between over-exposition, making poo poo dull, or under-exposition, which leaves the reader just at a loss. To be even remotely worthwhile, it would have to follow some internal hard and fast rules which can be developed as short-hand within the piece (I guess like whatever those metals things are in prev. post.))
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Feb 22, 2014 14:44
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You can have over the top fight scenes in books. You can't have over the top anime fight scenes in books, because books aren't anime. You know how people complain about how movies are different from the book version? You know how novelizations of movies are rarely ever as good as the movie? That's because both are trying to say something similar in completely different media. If someone does pull off a cross-media translation like that, it's because they were creative and skillful in representing the themes of the original in an entirely different medium. An over the top fight scene in a book is going to be entirely different from one in an anime. Plus, what does that even mean in that context? Like Pokemon battles?
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Feb 22, 2014 15:42
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There have been some literal anime action novels (The Vampire Hunter D series is decent pulp fantasy) but take away the cartoon visuals and it's just an action book. Unless you use a lot of anime cliches to make your inspiration clear, what's the point?
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Feb 22, 2014 16:12
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Bringing up Sanderson again, he wrote an essay on how a lot of writers try to imitate movies with prose, writing fights blow-by-blow. That doesn't work because a novel isn't a visual medium. What he suggests instead is to get inside the head of the POV character and focus on the stakes of the fight. Also, keep a handle on blocking.
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Feb 22, 2014 17:11
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Schneider Heim posted:Mistborn is a trilogy with combat mechanics that are meticulously explained and documented in appendices. People get superpowers by drinking metals (Pewter makes you super-strong and fast, iron and steel make you Magneto, etc). The fights can get quite intricate. Thanks. I actually read the first two Mistborn novels and they're the only thing that comes to mind as coming close and working. And even then there is a lot of build up before we really ever see what is happening and get to the good fights near the end of the book and the second book. But they are over the top and ridiculous, but they seem plausiable in that world because of how things are explained and the limits that are clearly defined. Jeza posted:If you're gonna have "over the top anime" fights in a piece of writing, remember this one thing: I'm not really interested in most anime or over the top fights of that type. The thing is that these other guys are trying to drill me about why I am cautioning them against trying to write like anime. It seems like people here are saying the same kind of things I have been saying to them. But yeah, it just seems like--don't is the best advice. Djeser posted:You can have over the top fight scenes in books. You can't have over the top anime fight scenes in books, because books aren't anime. You know how people complain about how movies are different from the book version? You know how novelizations of movies are rarely ever as good as the movie? That's because both are trying to say something similar in completely different media. If someone does pull off a cross-media translation like that, it's because they were creative and skillful in representing the themes of the original in an entirely different medium. An over the top fight scene in a book is going to be entirely different from one in an anime. That's something I have been trying to point out. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't saying that and people weren't going to pop in with a whole batch of stories written DBZ style that somehow worked. And Pokemon battles aren't really what I'm thinking of. More like Naruto or Dragon Ball Z or large scale super destructive battles. I think there are some anime that you could easily write fights for. Evangelion or Attack on Titan, because those battles seem to be more grounded than a lot of other things. And if the anime is just realistic I'm not really counting it. I just don't know how else to describe the kind of battle I'm talking about. Soulcleaver posted:There have been some literal anime action novels (The Vampire Hunter D series is decent pulp fantasy) but take away the cartoon visuals and it's just an action book. Unless you use a lot of anime cliches to make your inspiration clear, what's the point? Never read Vampire Hunter D, but I think what a lot of young writers are going on is that they don't have to really have to read novels or short stories. They don't want to have any kind of background in traditional literature or any of that. They want to write like what they grew up reading--anime. They can't draw, so making actual comics seems out of reach. So they run out and write boring contrived stories with chapters and chapters of continuous fighting that don't work. Trying to convince them to do otherwise doesn't work either. Schneider Heim posted:Bringing up Sanderson again, he wrote an essay on how a lot of writers try to imitate movies with prose, writing fights blow-by-blow. That doesn't work because a novel isn't a visual medium. What he suggests instead is to get inside the head of the POV character and focus on the stakes of the fight. Also, keep a handle on blocking. That's something that sounds promising. I should look that one up. I actually have pretty grounded fights in my own stuff, even if the characters have powers no one is getting thrown through mountains.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:15
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When I was slogging through the Malazan series I had to put the books down from time to time due to over the top DBZ action sequences. It wasn't so much one-on-one fights but pointlessly large-scale battles, badass gods everywhere, giant Sephiroth swords, the works. Malazan is weirdly a pretty successful fantasy series though so I don't know what my point is here.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:20
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Sitting Here posted:Malazan is weirdly a pretty successful fantasy series though so I don't know what my point is here. Action heavy narratives, when done well, have a sizable, but not universal, audience? I think Jim Butcher is also good at presenting high action sequences, that manage to also serve as reflections of the characters involved, not just in the Dresden Files but also in the Codex Alera, with the former being more personal and the latter being more tactical.
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Feb 22, 2014 19:44
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R.A. Salvatore writes great action scenes. Unfortunately, his characters are zero-dimensional and the dialogue is always terrible and he's obviously sick of writing Drizzt books, but what are you gonna do? He's the least worst of the D&D brand novelists, at least.
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Feb 22, 2014 21:10
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Larry Correia does some great fight scenes in the Grimnoir Chronicles series. He's a big military freak so his stuff gets a little heavy on the technical side, but there's scenes in Spellbound and Hard Magic with japanese swords that are great.
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Feb 22, 2014 22:39
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David Gemmell is the be-all end-all of fantasy fight scenes. Go read Legend, it'll teach you everything you need to know
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Feb 23, 2014 00:19
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I was amused/impressed when Terry Pratchett reduced a three-against-one back-alley brawl to the phrase "a complicated moment."
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Feb 23, 2014 01:51
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I'm going to make a list of the books being suggested here and check them out. While I don't have huge scale fighting in my stuff I would like to be able to put some decent fights when my characters learn to fight. Action sequences seem to be some of the hardest things for me to write and I could always use examples.
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Feb 23, 2014 03:29
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magnificent7 posted:I haven't found another book about writing that covered that side of it; the thrill of creating a story, the joy of being an artist, the self-loathing of sucking at it. I mean, you've been doing this for years. I don't know what's so different about someone criticizing a song versus criticizing your writing. And also, in either scenario I think you try to keep in mind that when people say "I didn't like that," they are almost always right, and when they say, "because..." they are almost always wrong.
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Feb 23, 2014 08:32
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Silly question. I'm writing in this week's Thunderdome, but I don't want to poo poo up that thread with READ MY STORY PLX posts. Would someone be willing to give my story a once-over and let me know if it's complete and utter tripe before I grit my teeth and submit it?Oxxidation posted:I was amused/impressed when Terry Pratchett reduced a three-against-one back-alley brawl to the phrase "a complicated moment." That is a pretty fantastic way to write action scenes without getting complicated about it.
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Feb 23, 2014 13:45
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Mr. Belding posted:I mean, you've been doing this for years. I don't know what's so different about someone criticizing a song versus criticizing your writing. And also, in either scenario I think you try to keep in mind that when people say "I didn't like that," they are almost always right, and when they say, "because..." they are almost always wrong. "This is good" or "This is bad" are both equally useless without knowing why it works or doesn't. Having somebody else help you with that is fast, simple and effective.
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Feb 23, 2014 14:04
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Ursine Asylum posted:Silly question. I'm writing in this week's Thunderdome, but I don't want to poo poo up that thread with READ MY STORY PLX posts. Would someone be willing to give my story a once-over and let me know if it's complete and utter tripe before I grit my teeth and submit it? Get on irc and show me. Mr. Belding posted:I think you try to keep in mind that when people say "I didn't like that," they are almost always right, and when they say, "because..." they are almost always wrong. I think this is terrible advice. You know I'm right, so I won't bother giving a reason because by doing so, I'm immediately wrong, following your logic.
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Feb 23, 2014 14:09
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I think Mr Belding has misremembered the advice, which usually goes: When people say, "I didn't like that part," they are almost always right; when they tell you how to fix it, they are almost always wrong. The point is that lots of readers have a good idea of when something isn't working, and if they can tell you exactly why (i.e. "because..."), that's really useful. However, they're still readers, and not writers, so you shouldn't just copy and paste their corrections into your document and think that you've solved your problem - you should see why they didn't like it, and work out how to solve it yourself.
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Feb 23, 2014 15:01
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Testro posted:I think Mr Belding has misremembered the advice, which usually goes: Yeah, I think he was thinking of that Neil Gaiman quote (which is basically what you posted) and just got his words mixed up.
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Feb 23, 2014 17:06
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I believe both Testro and Gandhi are correct:Neil Gaiman posted:“Remember: when people tell you something’s wrong or doesn’t work for them, they are almost always right. When they tell you exactly what they think is wrong and how to fix it, they are almost always wrong.” Which is actually a good way of approaching crits. Listen to them, think through what they are saying, but ultimately have some faith in your judgment and fight for what you hate to lose. As to considering people wrong when they start saying "because" and list their reasoning, I sincerely hope Mr. Belding didn't follow that line of talking because, good luck ever improving in your writing.
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Feb 23, 2014 17:14
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Dune did a great job with powered action scenes. Usually having the main character just destroy someone in a sentence. There was this series I read as a youngster that I thought back then had a good handle on it, think it was the called The Runelords, had a bunch of fun sequences to read about.
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Feb 23, 2014 22:40
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I've kind of always wanted to read Dune, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. I posted the opening of a novella that grew out of something that I thought up the last time I was posting on here. Would anyone mind taking a look at it?
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Feb 23, 2014 23:11
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Please read Heroes Die, Tube Knight. Matt Stover does really good action, and within that book is both normal-dude action and crazy "living god fighting a sentient river" kind of stuff.
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Feb 23, 2014 23:19
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:Please read Heroes Die, Tube Knight. Matt Stover does really good action, and within that book is both normal-dude action and crazy "living god fighting a sentient river" kind of stuff. I'm making note of all these. Going to have to check it out.
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Feb 23, 2014 23:24
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:I've kind of always wanted to read Dune, And so you should. Dune is a great example of action, though it's mostly one-to-one. But what it does really well is mix the actual choreography a fight with other stuff that makes what's going on feel important - whether that's the scene, what the characters are thinking, what someone says... It's also very good a shifting perspectives. You'll hear about sociopolitical clusterfuck in one paragraph, and a ripping tendon the next.
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Feb 23, 2014 23:26
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Symptomless Coma posted:And so you should. Dune is a great example of action, though it's mostly one-to-one. But what it does really well is mix the actual choreography a fight with other stuff that makes what's going on feel important - whether that's the scene, what the characters are thinking, what someone says... Well I wasn't really asking about the sweeping, huge actions scenes for me. Most of the stuff I do write will be one on one or small scale. Writing in first person makes it a little more difficult to concentrate on the battle at large if the viewpoint character is engaged. But from what I have heard about Dune and how it handles internal monologue it sounds interesting.
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Feb 24, 2014 00:39
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I'll second (third?) Mistborn. I read the first one and it was before my writing days, but even then I remember being impressed at how good the blocking was
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Feb 24, 2014 02:00
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Heroes Die is a good recommendation for action/fighting scenes. The author's a big martial artist and it shows in his writing.
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Feb 24, 2014 07:25
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:Writing in first person makes it a little more difficult to concentrate on the battle at large if the viewpoint character is engaged. This is very true (Dune's universal cheat code is its shifting perspective). Maybe look into how first-person narratives distort time? The whole point of first person is to show that reality is subjective, after all. Time slowing down, life flashing before one's eyes, etc...
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Feb 24, 2014 10:18
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CB_Tube_Knight posted:It's been a long time since I posted on this forum. It seems like a lot of the same stuff is going down. I have anime style fight scenes in my satirical novella A Dark Hand. It's pretty silly, and if you go full-on anime I can't imagine being able to do it straight. I think it might be something to with how the "anime" fights are presented tonally in contrast to the rest of a piece. Something like Lord of the Rings doesn't have anime fights, it has sweeping battles that feel in place with the rest of fairly believable world. Almost all anime fights are pretty over the top, so unless you're writing a whole piece that is anime and over the top, I think it can just simply feel out of place. Here are a couple of the most anime bits from my novella: quote:The werewolf was almost upon her when it suddenly yelped, and fell back, a part of its arm missing from the elbow. Blood spurted everywhere, covering Frederica’s shirt and staining the tree behind her. What had just happened? quote:A small bat burst out of the smoke and into the air, following behind the katana. Just as the katana hit its peak there was a flash of the red smoke again and Alex reappeared. He grabbed the katana, and angled it so that the blade was facing down. Alex said something from too far away for Frederica to hear, but she managed to lip read it fairly accurately: “chisio busutaa”. She gasped audibly. Could this be Alex's secret ultimate finishing move? Alex began to topple from the air towards the ghost lady at incredible speed, a blood red trail of smoke behind him.
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Feb 24, 2014 13:46
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Mike Works posted:Heroes Die is a good recommendation for action/fighting scenes. The author's a big martial artist and it shows in his writing. Everyone is suggesting fantasy stuff for fight scenes, but I suggest that if you want to read a good fight scene you should stop reading nerdy stuff for nerds. Try some detective fiction or noir: John D. MacDonald's Travis McGee books. All of these are awesome and you should read them all anyway. There's usually at least one great fight/action scene. Charlie Huston's Henry Thompson trilogy is about a guy who wins a lot of fights by being ruthless and lucky as opposed to good. It's also awesome. Robert B. Parker was a boxer, his main character is a boxer, he knows how to write a punch up. Any of the first 8 or so Spenser books are good. They start to get worse around the 8th book or so--definitely don't read A Catskill Eagle or anything after it. God Save The Child has a 6 page fistfight in it which is excellent. However, it also contains a some theories about homosexuality that were very current in 1974 (did you know if your dad is a wuss, it can make you gay? It's not true!)
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Feb 24, 2014 15:24
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Yeah, Seldom speaks truth. The best action you're gonna read is old time pulp stuff, noir, maybe some L'amour or something. Tersely described, but effective as all hell. With bad enough characters that its really credible when they just outright destroy someone. Fantasy can be a self-limiting genre. You know what's the best written action scene I read recently? A non-fiction article in a magazine (Men's Health maybe? I'll try to post it).
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Feb 24, 2014 18:00
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Elmore Leonard, as well. You can't go wrong with Leonard as an example for good writing in any area, but his scenes of violence are short and powerful and often unwieldy. The way real violence tends to be. Keep in mind that when it comes to action scenes, the action is the least important part. If you have swordfights or fistfights or anything like that, you want to make sure you've earned them--the fight should be a physical manifestation of emotional states. A pleasant side-effect of that philosophy is that you fight ends up layered with meanings (eg the catharsis in the moment your protagonist punches your antagonist in the jaw because the antagonist couldn't keep his loving mouth shut). David Gemmell, who was mentioned earlier, is a good example of this, when he brings his A game. He does some play-by-play brawls (especially with Jaim Grymauch in Ravenheart) that are absolutely fantastic, but every now and again he has his characters scythe through badguys like they're targets in video games. But when he's on, he's great. tl;dr - Action scenes without emotion--without a reason for your reader to get invested in--come out dead on the page. You know you've laid good groundwork if you don't need the action scene at all.
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Feb 24, 2014 18:35
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People were recommending fantasy because the question was asked for "over the top" action scenes. If you want something more realistic, sure, go for westerns. But if you want people hurling fireballs and running up castle walls, well, Louis L'amour wasn't so good at that. e: L'amour was really good at having people see glinting sunlight high up the wall of an arroyo and norrowly dodging a rifle bullet 
Blade_of_tyshalle fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Feb 24, 2014 |
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Feb 24, 2014 19:16
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This is all so relevant right now for me personally, it's great. My action scenes are pretty lousy - definitely a weak point - so I'll check out those recommendations
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Feb 24, 2014 19:18
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Blade_of_tyshalle posted:People were recommending fantasy because the question was asked for "over the top" action scenes. If you want something more realistic, sure, go for westerns. But if you want people hurling fireballs and running up castle walls, well, Louis L'amour wasn't so good at that. That's true. But when it comes to over-the-top fantasy fights, the action tends towards the same vaguely homoerotic mechanics. He blocked the blow. Delivered a backhanded riposte. Penetrated his enemy to the hilt. Always makes me think of the Schwartz fight in Spaceballs. If you want to write good, interesting fantasy, you'll need something different. Looking at other genres is a good place to start. If the objective is to write good fantasy--and the objective should always be to write something good, no matter what the genre is, even if it's something that's been played out since the first Tolkien-influenced high fantasy that came out in the 60's and 70's--then it's a good idea to look at the tropes of the genre and fix what sucks. And, frankly, most of those kinds of action sequences suck real bad. They're part of the reason fantasy was (is) pigeonholed to what academic snobs call "genre fiction" and why it has so little credibility outside of its base. And not to send this horse off to the glue factory, but those snobs might have a point. The state of fantasy fiction kind of pisses me off a little. Writing fantasy is pure imagination. That's the beauty of it. You make up your own rules and your own worlds and your own history. You can literally do any goddamned thing you please, poo poo that no one's ever thought of before in the history of storytelling, you can bend your world to shape your story and your theme, so why the gently caress has most fantasy been nothing but elves and dwarves and orcs furiously thrusting and parrying? Um. Anyway. My point, for what it's worth, is that those kinds of fights have their place, but they're not something you want to whip out just because you can. If they have meaning, if they serve the story, sure, but why not try something different and see if you can improve the reputation of a beleaguered genre in the process? Asbury fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Feb 24, 2014 |
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Feb 24, 2014 19:48
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3Romeo posted:That's true. But when it comes to over-the-top fantasy fights, the action tends towards the same vaguely homoerotic mechanics. He blocked the blow. Delivered a backhanded riposte. Penetrated his enemy to the hilt. Always makes me think of the Schwartz fight in Spaceballs. If you want to write good, interesting fantasy, you'll need something different. Looking at other genres is a good place to start. That's the impressive thing about Mistborn. Other than being really good in the fight department, there are no elves, orcs, or any of that. All the creatures are made up. The magic system is fresh, but it's clearly fantasy.
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Feb 24, 2014 20:32
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Brandon Sanderson is many things, but a boundary-pushing explorer of the fantastic is not one of them. He's a conservative fantasy writer in several senses.
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Feb 24, 2014 21:07
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