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Strategic Tea posted:But the intergenerational reading doesn't fully work anyway. The game has us at least hoping that some generational conflicts like the krogan/salarian one can be resolved. The catalyst never argues that those issues will always come to ruin. Only conflict between beings with nerves and beings with fibre optics are apparently inevitable. But you don't have to take the Catalyst at it's word? You can just say "screw you, I believe in my AI buddies!". But you cannot convince the Catalyst that you are right, so you must either destroy the Reapers, which unfortunately destroys all AI's currently in existence as well. Or you control the Reapers, which is perhaps not ideal, since with-great-power-comes-etc. Or you can use synthesis, which somehow solves all these problems. From the perspective of the Catalyst it might even make sense, since there are not pure organics or AI's any more, so the central conflict cannot occur any more. But from a human perspective, it is really unsatisfying that destroying these crazy machines destroys all other machines as well.
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Mar 8, 2014 12:47
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Guys GUYS. It's fine, Roland Barthes says Bioware is dead, so it's all the correct reading.
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Mar 8, 2014 13:30
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You know, when that notion is first presented, people generally have a lot of trouble with it. "What do you mean, what the author thought he said has no relevance to what he actually said?" I find that a good analogy is a quarrel with a loved one. Once you said something, the word is out and has a life of its own - you can't go back and claim "I actually meant..." And then you have to qualify that any interpretation may be correct, as long as you back it up. Strategic Tea posted:But the intergenerational reading doesn't fully work anyway.
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Mar 8, 2014 13:37
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Strategic Tea posted:But the intergenerational reading doesn't fully work anyway. The game has us at least hoping that some generational conflicts like the krogan/salarian one can be resolved. The catalyst never argues that those issues will always come to ruin. Only conflict between beings with nerves and beings with fibre optics are apparently inevitable. At least for me, the intergenerational reading does not exclude other interpretations of the story. It's one theme of the game, and a central one to my experience, but it doesn't mean the narrative is always explicit or consistent about it. I don't even know if the writers were conscious or even care about it. I'd like to see a writer acknowledge it in an interview, but I don't even have that much going. On the issue of the Salarians and the Krogans, the resolution to that conflict is entirely dependent on Shepard, who I think might ironically have the least amount of intergenerational conflict. Shepard is a hero from the Campbell school. That I will say is almost certainly Bioware's intention. She breaks old rules and remakes new ones. Without her, the Krogan problem was going to be resolved with a second genophage. With her, a new outcome is possible. The diversity reading is absolutely present in the story as well. It's clear that some speceis and individuals are more intolerant than others of differences, and these differences becomes a precursor to conflict throughout the games. I like the intergenerational reading because it contextualizes the source of some these differences in specific. Sometimes it is just happenstance, two independent civilizations or two independent people meeting in space and not getting along. But with the intergenerational conflicts, one party creates the other often with intentions and plans that go awry, or they fail their responsibilities to nurture the creation well. It's a bit like diversity-plus. It is indeed a conflict about differences, but also one where the relationship is more complicated than that of two strangers. Xander77 posted:And then you have to qualify that any interpretation may be correct, as long as you back it up. My take on the ending borrows a lot from Shepard's exceptional heroism to understand the options. The warscore is an indicator of how often Shepard has successfully done something heroic to change the outcome of the future. A higher warscore means a more heroic Shepard (though not necessarily one who's done more to alter negative intergenerational relationships), and therefore a Shepard who can more radically change the conflict at the end of the game. At this point, an intergenerational reading is going to be very similar to a diversity reading: the conflict can be resolved either with one side destroying the other completely or controlling the other completely or the mysterious third way which only a hero can show to the world that it is possible.
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Mar 8, 2014 15:42
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I kind of look at the Reapers and relays and the cycle and stuff not as "your parents" but as "society". That is, they're the big overarching framework in which all this intergenerational conflict is taking place, and it doesn't make sense to us but evidently someone in the past decided that this framework was necessary. As we grow up, we begin to really perceive this framework and rebel against it instead of/as well as our parents. Eventually our generation becomes adults and society is ours, and we can either burn it all down in favour of whatever, or keep it going in our own image and try to do it better. Or, of course, we can synthesis(some other ideal thing which right now sounds as alien and stupid as the Reaper cycle, maybe because the way we think is coloured by the framework which raised us)Torrannor posted:I honestly saw the destruction of all AI more an unfortunate side-effect of the Catalyst/Citadel destroying the Reapers. It is not necessary to destroy all mechanical intelligences, but the anti-Reaper beam does it nonetheless. If you want to destroy the Reapers, all other AI's get destroyed as well, because the beam cannot differentiate between Reaper and non-Reaper AI.
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Mar 8, 2014 15:54
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Yes, exactly. It's not Pilgrim's Progress, where every thing is a thinly-veiled allegory for another, more meaningful thing, and said allegory excludes all other readings. It's not a puzzlebox.
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Mar 8, 2014 16:08
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Xander77 posted:You know, when that notion is first presented, people generally have a lot of trouble with it. "What do you mean, what the author thought he said has no relevance to what he actually said?" 
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Mar 8, 2014 16:31
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Lt. Danger posted:Yes, exactly. It's not Pilgrim's Progress, where every thing is a thinly-veiled allegory for another, more meaningful thing, and said allegory excludes all other readings. It's not a puzzlebox. I mean, even then, you have the fact that the game's entire universe is set up as this big thing where the whole twist of the first game is that none of the races in the galaxy actually control their own destiny, because they don't actually understand how the tools they were given work. Like, the entire setting supports that view.
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Mar 8, 2014 17:37
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Dan Didio posted:People have been doing this in this thread, and many, many others before it. It's cyclical, which is funny, but man, you've kind of arrived late to the world's saddest party. Lt. Danger posted:Yes, exactly. It's not Pilgrim's Progress, where every thing is a thinly-veiled allegory for another, more meaningful thing, and said allegory excludes all other readings. It's not a puzzlebox.
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Mar 8, 2014 18:30
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The Salarians are the Krogans' parents.
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Mar 8, 2014 21:36
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Bongo Bill posted:The Salarians are the Krogans' parents. Prove it. 
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Mar 9, 2014 04:56
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Shrimp or Shrimps posted:Prove it. cute
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Mar 9, 2014 05:02
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Bongo Bill posted:The Salarians are the Krogans' parents. They're the kind of rich 1950s parents who lobotomise their rebellious teenage daughters.
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Mar 9, 2014 12:40
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Just 'caught up' with this thread after finishing the series for the first time (well, I read every hundredth page or so and the last eight. Jesus this thread is huge).2house2fly posted:The geth and EDI are Reaper AI. Ending chat! Is it possible to cure the genophage and make peace between the geth/quarians on a renegade playthrough, or are they mutually exclusive? If they weren't, I'd have like it if the synthesis ending was only unlocked if you'd actively brought peace and conciliation to the galaxy and demonstrated to the starchild that cooperation was possible between organics and synthetics. Making the explicit connection between Shepard's personal collection of war assets (and thus interspecies cooperation) and synthesis actually working would also have been nice. (I realise this isn't very renegade-y, but the option is presumably open to them regardless now anyway). gently caress the destroy ending for (apparently) killing off EDI and the geth without any acknowledgement though. The geth were taking an active role in rehabilitating the quarians for life on Rannoch and none of the EDI dialogue foreshadows her death. Nothing in the EC destroy ending suggests anyone is sorry about them being gone, even Joker. One possible tweak could have been to say that any AI sufficiently close to organic life in pattern (i.e. the geth after the upload, or EDI after receiving the Power Of Love from Joker/Shepard  ) could survive the blast. I guess that would have made for too good an ending for all involved?No little blue Asari babies. 
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Mar 9, 2014 17:17
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Kegluneq posted:but the Quarians, also part synthetic, are not harmed. I'm pretty sure while they're heavily reliant on their suits to survive what with their immune system and stuff, the Quarians aren't partially synthetic themselves. Unless I'm forgetting some huge thing that was established at some point throughout the trilogy. Shepard is partially synthetic post-Lazarus Project but I'm pretty sure the games are deliberately vague about whether some tech of that is (based on) Reaper tech or just, well, uhh, regular tech.
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Mar 9, 2014 17:33
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I think Bioware were too nervous about upsetting their terrifying fans again to make the EC have any real teeth. This was probably a mis-step (people loved Mordin and Legion dying so I think they would have also loved some more bittersweet feels in the epilogue) but they can hardly be blamed for playing it safe.
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Mar 9, 2014 17:38
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2house2fly posted:I think Bioware were too nervous about upsetting their terrifying fans again to make the EC have any real teeth. This was probably a mis-step (people loved Mordin and Legion dying so I think they would have also loved some more bittersweet feels in the epilogue) but they can hardly be blamed for playing it safe. 
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Mar 9, 2014 18:05
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Burning Mustache posted:I'm pretty sure while they're heavily reliant on their suits to survive what with their immune system and stuff, the Quarians aren't partially synthetic themselves. ) but that's it.
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Mar 9, 2014 18:14
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Kegluneq posted:
"A future paid for by the sacrifices of those who fought and died beside us. A future many will never see." "And we will honor those who died to give us that future." Not to mention that EDI and Legion appear on the Normandy Memorial Wall alongside the faceless crew of the first Normandy, anyone in the ME2 squad who died, Anderson, IMO, loss of synthetics is counted among the many who died in the overall war to destroy the Reapers, just not explicitly said, and will be remembered and honored by the galaxy. SgtSteel91 fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 18:46
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Kegluneq posted:gently caress the destroy ending for (apparently) killing off EDI and the geth without any acknowledgement though. The geth were taking an active role in rehabilitating the quarians for life on Rannoch and none of the EDI dialogue foreshadows her death. Nothing in the EC destroy ending suggests anyone is sorry about them being gone, even Joker. One possible tweak could have been to say that any AI sufficiently close to organic life in pattern (i.e. the geth after the upload, or EDI after receiving the Power Of Love from Joker/Shepard  SgtSteel91 posted:IMO, loss of synthetics is counted among the many who died in the overall war to destroy the Reapers, just not explicitly said, and will be remembered and honored by the galaxy. Of course I'm biased here since I think people who chose the Destroy ending because they gave no fucks about synthetic life deserve the bad that might come with it. That is, the galaxy regressing to the synthetic-hating status quo as they whitewash any lessons that might have been learned from the whole ordeal.
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Mar 9, 2014 19:56
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Shepard being alive at the end of the EC is weird. She's alive in a massively wrecked Citadel. I'm going to assume she's therefore intended to be living in general, otherwise it's just...Shepard seeming to die, Shepard actually surviving, and then her dying anyway. Except they show a fully repaired Citadel in the ending, so if she survived, she would have been found. And they left in the emotional scene where the crew hangs up her placard on the memorial wall. I liked enough of the ending that I'm just ignoring some other parts to pretend that it was more cohesive.
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Mar 9, 2014 20:03
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Both Shep living, and the random "oh we're rebuilding the Mass Relays" thing are incredibly dumb (though I think the Shep breathing scene was in the base game already, and not the EC)
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Mar 9, 2014 20:13
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Yeah, it was. Some people didn't see it because it required multiplayer back then, but it was there.
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Mar 9, 2014 20:16
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Burning Mustache posted:I'm pretty sure while they're heavily reliant on their suits to survive what with their immune system and stuff, the Quarians aren't partially synthetic themselves. Zedd posted:That's correct as far as I know yes, they really need their suits (4-generation-immune-system degradation  They are also described as having immuno-boosting implants however, and these were definitely geth-ified to some degree following the peaceful resolution to the war.Edit: A quote from Harbinger ("Quarian; considered due to cybernetic augmentation, weakened immune system too debilitating") seems to confirm that they have some synthetic elements although they may not be essential to life. Anyone remember what the ingame description of 'Quarian Machinist' says? SgtSteel91 posted:"A future paid for by the sacrifices of those who fought and died beside us. A future many will never see." Inverness posted:The idea that synthetics are better off becoming more like organics is one that needs to be violently killed. Organics definitely benefit from the synthetic additions, and civilisation in the galaxy in general is at its most prosperous in that ending. Elysiume posted:Shepard being alive at the end of the EC is weird. She's alive in a massively wrecked Citadel. I'm going to assume she's therefore intended to be living in general, otherwise it's just...Shepard seeming to die, Shepard actually surviving, and then her dying anyway. Except they show a fully repaired Citadel in the ending, so if she survived, she would have been found. And they left in the emotional scene where the crew hangs up her placard on the memorial wall. Kegluneq fucked around with this message at 21:28 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 20:44
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Fag Boy Jim posted:Both Shep living, and the random "oh we're rebuilding the Mass Relays" thing are incredibly dumb (though I think the Shep breathing scene was in the base game already, and not the EC) I can see Shep living as something that works, because in the Destroy ending nothing metaphysically changes - Shepard fulfils Titanomachy, killing the old gods/upstart children and cementing the current species' place as the new rulers of the galaxy. Yeah, I guess Shepard can survive, because hey! it worked for Zeus. e: but rebuilding the mass relays is and always will be a terrible act of creative cowardice
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Mar 9, 2014 21:10
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Lt. Danger posted:I can see Shep living as something that works, because in the Destroy ending nothing metaphysically changes - Shepard fulfils Titanomachy, killing the old gods/upstart children and cementing the current species' place as the new rulers of the galaxy. Yeah, I guess Shepard can survive, because hey! it worked for Zeus.
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Mar 9, 2014 21:17
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If it was better set up, it wouldn't be, since we know from the first game that the Citadel and the Relays are a giant Reaper honeypot, so discarding them at the end of the series would make some amount of sense.
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Mar 9, 2014 21:21
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As it is, it's still almost certainly the best part of the original ending, along with the cutscene where the Normandy crashes.
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Mar 9, 2014 21:23
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The Unnamed One posted:If it was better set up, it wouldn't be, since we know from the first game that the Citadel and the Relays are a giant Reaper honeypot, so discarding them at the end of the series would make some amount of sense. Fag Boy Jim posted:As it is, it's still almost certainly the best part of the original ending, along with the cutscene where the Normandy crashes.
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Mar 9, 2014 21:31
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Kegluneq posted:But the Reapers are no longer a threat in any of the three endings? Destroying the Relays would give Bioware much more freedom to develop the world further for the series. It would also be nice to see the galaxy develop new technologies (like better FTL-travel) that were not needed in the time of the Mass Relays, to show that the "children" left the predetermined path their "parents" set for them. And honestly, I can live with the Normandy never returning home since I never expected to see any of them again, except for Liara and EDI maybe. You would also have a big number of aliens stranded in the vicinity of Earth, how that developed would have been nice to see as well. So pretty much what others said, not destroying the relays was the single most craven thing Bioware did for the entire Mass Effect series.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:18
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The Unnamed One posted:If it was better set up, it wouldn't be, since we know from the first game that the Citadel and the Relays are a giant Reaper honeypot, so discarding them at the end of the series would make some amount of sense. Torrannor posted:Destroying the Relays would give Bioware much more freedom to develop the world further for the series. It would also be nice to see the galaxy develop new technologies (like better FTL-travel) that were not needed in the time of the Mass Relays, to show that the "children" left the predetermined path their "parents" set for them. Kegluneq posted:It worked for the geth after they received the Reaper code - I'm fairly certain that they were actually the least affected by the synthesis wave, after the quarians. They were already cooperating by the endgame. Sure, if synthetics or organics want to enhance themselves with aspects of the other form of life, that's fine. What's wrong is suggesting they're not of as much worth unless they do so.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:34
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Kegluneq posted:
If you don't have the EMS score to get the Shepard breath scene, they do in fact put the name up on the wall. And, to me at least, it's not like they know for sure Shepard is alive, it's that they strongly feel that he's not dead, and with the Shepard breath scene, there is hope that Shepard and their LI/crew will reunite.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:46
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I think the problem is that people want the game to have artistic merit. But that doesn't often happen when you have a game written by committee, in the age of focus groups. For every good aspect someone manages to work in, you have three guys aiming for the CoD audience, another two trying to get Jersey Shore fans to jump on in the third game, then some other people trying to make the ending 'epic' despite having almost zero plans for a finale, or having those plans butchered by the other 30 cooks working on the storyline. I mean once you accept that it's a sci-fi video game with no real artistic merit, you stop caring about the ending, or it's implications or what people think of it. Because you realize, it wasn't made to be interesting, or to be a piece of art or anything like that. It wasn't meant to be thought about too hard. It's there to make money. That's it. Arguing about whether the ending made sense, or was thematically appropriate, or how the story-line swung wildly back and forth with what it was trying to say is pointless, because it wasn't written for any of that. It was written for the money. The piles and piles of money.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:52
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Torrannor posted:Destroying the Relays would give Bioware much more freedom to develop the world further for the series. It would also be nice to see the galaxy develop new technologies (like better FTL-travel) that were not needed in the time of the Mass Relays, to show that the "children" left the predetermined path their "parents" set for them. FTL was still hugely important within the galaxy, for navigating within and between systems. It might take many more thousands of years to get to the point where people could pass immediately to other systems but they'd probably get there eventually. (A cycle of 50,000 years to the Asari is peanuts, this cycle is still young.) I don't see why bootstrapping their way to success is a necessary step though. quote:And honestly, I can live with the Normandy never returning home since I never expected to see any of them again, except for Liara and EDI maybe. You would also have a big number of aliens stranded in the vicinity of Earth, how that developed would have been nice to see as well. quote:So pretty much what others said, not destroying the relays was the single most craven thing Bioware did for the entire Mass Effect series.  Inverness posted:I'm talking about how ME3 stated that the Geth or EDI weren't truly alive until they became more like organics. It's incredibly racist.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:56
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Kegluneq posted:Hey, remember that rich multicultural galaxy you spent three games exploring? gently caress you, no-one else gets to do that again and everyone dies alone In other words, destroying the relays is bad because it means there can't be any more Mass Effect games. Which is dumb, because a) It doesn't necessarily mean that, and b) Mass Effect was originally written as a trilogy, and franchising/extended universe poo poo is just the death of good writing, because it means that the status quo can never be seriously changed.
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Mar 9, 2014 22:58
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Relays are presented as a form of stagnation, Reaper influence or not. The asari wouldn't try to build another form of transportation from things they learned from the past, and even laugh at Liara's "father" for suggesting that (altough who the gently caress knows if that's true, since apparently she's watching Liara on the Matriarch's orders, but they did withhold information from the Conduit on Thessia). I'm not saying the ending - or even the ME3 main plot - works with the Relays being destroyed, but the entire series should be focused on how to stop being so reliant on the Relay Network and the Citadel, since they're obviously holding everyone back to some extent or another. ... I guess I want Mass Effect to be a series about alternative energy? Also a game where a bunch of several different species are stuck on the same planet, and some can't even eat its food has potential, and was one of the few things that made me go "Well, if they want to do something after this, I guess it's a good starting point".
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Mar 9, 2014 23:02
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Kegluneq posted:But the Reapers are no longer a threat in any of the three endings? Inverness posted:Except it doesn't since the Reapers are dead. The Citadel and Mass Relays are tools. Discarding them is pointless. No, look, it's not- it's not real, okay? None of it is. Think about it like an author. You're writing a metaphor, not an encyclopaedia. What does it mean, that the new generation casts all the tools of the older generation as part of their victory? Do not use the future tense in your answer.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:02
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Kegluneq posted:My impression was that the significant other who usually puts Shepard's name up doesn't in the good Destroy ending. I don't know if they do if Shepard doesn't survive. Either way, at that point they're marooned on an alien world and may not know if she's been found or not. The monologue doesn't really help though. SgtSteel91 posted:If you don't have the EMS score to get the Shepard breath scene, they do in fact put the name up on the wall. And, to me at least, it's not like they know for sure Shepard is alive, it's that they strongly feel that he's not dead, and with the Shepard breath scene, there is hope that Shepard and their LI/crew will reunite. Not my video, but here's a video of the good ending: 9:20 for the plaque, then they fly away and you see Shepard breathe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sukngb6r-W8&t=560s Elysiume fucked around with this message at 23:11 on Mar 9, 2014 |
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Mar 9, 2014 23:08
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What's with this bullshit story, anyway? A Samaritan would never help a heretic Jew. It would make more sense for one of the other two to come back with help. Just silly. 0/5 stars
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Mar 9, 2014 23:08
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PootieTang posted:I think the problem is that people want the game to have artistic merit. But that doesn't often happen when you have a game written by committee, in the age of focus groups. For every good aspect someone manages to work in, you have three guys aiming for the CoD audience, another two trying to get Jersey Shore fans to jump on in the third game, then some other people trying to make the ending 'epic' despite having almost zero plans for a finale, or having those plans butchered by the other 30 cooks working on the storyline. Actually, the problem with the ending was that it WASN'T written by committee. All the other writers were basically locked out of the room while two guys decided what Mass Effect was REALLY about the whole time, all by themselves. And those two guys decided it was really about Starchild.
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Mar 9, 2014 23:16
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