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BabyRyoga posted:The core of the argument is that in a game where the mid role has the most effect on the outcome of the early game in almost any situation, that role should have even more effectiveness when playing at a level lower than one's own skill. Even if we assume that mid always has the most effect on the outcome of the early game, what evidence do you have that the most efficient way for you to take advantage of this by calling mid (and playing one of the heroes that I've already pointed out all have significantly below 50% win rates) instead of taking heroes like Crystal Maiden and Venomancer and a smoke and always making at least one gank on the enemy mid every game? Or taking offlane Mirana and spending all your free time fishing for arrows on the enemy mid? Why is it that these Snowball heroes with a huge amount of impact (ex. Storm Spirit, Templar Assassin, Invoker) have significantly lower win rates than Crystal Maiden, Venomancer, and Mirana in every bracket of pub play?
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Mar 15, 2014 07:14
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Phantasmal posted:Even if we assume that mid always has the most effect on the outcome of the early game, what evidence do you have that the most efficient way for you to take advantage of this by calling mid (and playing one of the heroes that I've already pointed out all have significantly below 50% win rates) instead of taking heroes like Crystal Maiden and Venomancer and a smoke and always making at least one gank on the enemy mid every game? Or taking offlane Mirana and spending all your free time fishing for arrows on the enemy mid? Why is it that these Snowball heroes with a huge amount of impact (ex. Storm Spirit, Templar Assassin, Invoker) have significantly lower win rates than Crystal Maiden, Venomancer, and Mirana in every bracket of pub play? Well, we have to assume that mid competency is a given for this to work, of course. The win rates of other players on specific types of hero are independent of any type of game, they don't mean anything specific to this argument unless every single game of Dota 2 played is one where someone tried to take a snowball hero mid for the soul purpose of raising MMR and died to any combo of Veno/CM/Mirana. This is not a case for figuring out which heroes are the most effective at winning the game, because all 3 of those heroes are in the current meta game of generally higher value than a Puck, or Invoker, or OD, or TA, or QoP in a draft. It's a case for figuring out what the most effective play style is in an environment where out of 5 player controlled heroes, you could be thust in a situation where none of your actions, be them abilities you've used on your hero or things you have said on voice/typed in chat, have any influence on the other 4.
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Mar 15, 2014 07:31
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BabyRyoga posted:It's a case for figuring out what the most effective play style is in an environment where out of 5 player controlled heroes, you could be thust in a situation where none of your actions, be them abilities you've used on your hero or things you have said on voice/typed in chat, have any influence on the other 4. So a case that has no bearing on actual Dota, cool, thanks
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Mar 15, 2014 08:01
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Phantasmal posted:Why is it that these Snowball heroes with a huge amount of impact (ex. Storm Spirit, Templar Assassin, Invoker) have significantly lower win rates than Crystal Maiden, Venomancer, and Mirana in every bracket of pub play?
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Mar 15, 2014 08:03
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BabyRyoga posted:Well, we have to assume that mid competency is a given for this to work, of course. The problem is that competency is a relative thing. In the Juice experience he explicitly engineered a scenario where he had a huge competency advantage over his opponents. If you're not Juice you're either a middling player who's probably not the Storm Spirit savant that can easily overcome his miserable Normal/High win rate, or you're actually in a high enough bracket where you should be able to trust your teammates to execute basic CC kill combos. But most of the people who complain about needing to carry every game are people from the first group laboring under the delusion that they really belong in the second group, and the last thing the game needs is more stuff encouraging them to insta-lock Storm Spirit. And why do we even believe that mid has the earliest impact? A smart Venomancer pick can feasibly win two lanes before Storm Spirit even hits 6, and Storm Spirit isn't even an amazing, kill creating laner before he gets his ult, so if we're assuming competent play from someone < 4k against other < 4k people I'm way more confident in the Venomancer impacting the early game than the Storm Spirit. The chance Storm Spirit might have a not-easy mid matchup that he can't outskill is more likely than the chance that Venomancer won't have a vulnerable gank or attrition target in any of the three lanes. Elysiume posted:Probably because they are harder and/or worse heroes. I'm not arguing the support/mid/whatever thing, but CM and Veno are both really easy and really strong. SS/TA/Invoker are all decently difficult to play well. This is a large part of what's behind it, so why the hell would you treat some of the hardest, most inflexible heroes as the secret to maxing your MMR? I'm all in favor of people actually investing time in SS/TA/Invoker because pushing yourself to learn more difficult heroes makes you better at the game, but to present it as the short cut to MMR success is just absurd.
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Mar 15, 2014 08:11
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Just had a pretty good Huskar game, so good I got the enemy team to quit by 11 minutes into the game.
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Mar 15, 2014 08:13
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Nfcknblvbl posted:Just had a pretty good Huskar game, so good I got the enemy team to quit by 11 minutes into the game. Congrats, you won a game of dota
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Mar 15, 2014 08:32
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Whats the point of having a high mmr? I remember at a certain point (before ranked) I didn't even like playing because everybody was obsessed with getting better/playing better players. I queued up against some pretty good people too, like Aliastar, Fear, I think Aui was on my team twice. Like I can see if you want to play against or with pros, that makes sense. But other than that its not worth the grief and poo poo you get from everyone else. Four* examples I could dig up http://dotabuff.com/matches/159432818 http://dotabuff.com/matches/257246077 http://dotabuff.com/matches/208515287 http://dotabuff.com/matches/254190124 Also all the pro players were ridiculously good and typically stomped the other team. All you get when you go up in MMR is more heartache. Its fun to play at whatever level you're at and not looking at it as a cut-throat competition to skill-shame the opposing players. Dr. Snuggles fucked around with this message at 09:24 on Mar 15, 2014 |
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Mar 15, 2014 09:16
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Well, when you play with better players you get to play with better players and it helps you learn how to play better. The goal of most people is to have fun at a video game. Some people just like to stomp (smurfs/Bot players). Some people just like competition and want to get better and play harder competition. These last are the people who want a higher MMR. But ummm, congrats on posting dotabuffs from a year ago where you played with pros, you're super good at Dota.
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Mar 15, 2014 09:38
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Dr. Fetus posted:http://dotabuff.com/matches/562680350 You allowed Sniper to get very fat.
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Mar 15, 2014 09:41
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Just saying that getting better =! more fun. It's just more of a chance to gently caress up and have everyone yell at you. Reaching MMR benchmarks just means you get to do less fun stuff. More stress, more expectations, more enjoyment? Not for me anyways.
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Mar 15, 2014 09:53
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I don't play ranked because I like having all of the good game modes in the rotation and there is little appeal in watching a number go up/down for me.
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Mar 15, 2014 10:00
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I enjoy competitive play and the fight to raise my party and solo MMR by 400 points has been personally rewarding as I have made tangible improvements to my micro, game awareness/map awareness, and general combat positioning. I'm continuing to trend slowly upward and it's fun to see a number that represents that progress. Some people like competitive play and want to get better at games and play them at their limit. Some people want to just goof around and try to be wacky. Both are fine, but one isn't intrinsically better than the other. And then there are scrubs who want to play wacky but be told they're competitive, and they all think they're in ELO hell as a result. These people should be mocked.
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Mar 15, 2014 10:10
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Aferisan posted:Just saying that getting better =! more fun. It's just more of a chance to gently caress up and have everyone yell at you. Reaching MMR benchmarks just means you get to do less fun stuff. There is a reason like 90% of BW games were 6v1 compstomp BGH. There are some people though who actually like a challenge when playing games.
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Mar 15, 2014 10:26
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Dota does get a lot less fun the higher up you are in the MMR brackets, where you have to contend with 5 players of a similar, or significantly higher skill level, while being basically forbidden from experimenting with different heroes and builds. That said, there are... certain ways around this. Queuing with lower level goons for instance.  (or any goons for that matter)
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Mar 15, 2014 10:37
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Firebatgyro posted:There is a reason like 90% of BW games were 6v1 compstomp BGH. There are some people though who actually like a challenge when playing games. I never played StarCraft I don't get your analogy
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Mar 15, 2014 10:50
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Aferisan posted:I never played StarCraft I don't get your analogy Most nerds would rather be able to mess around and still win 100% of the time then actually be challenged by anything.
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Mar 15, 2014 10:56
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Bonfiesta posted:Dota does get a lot less fun the higher up you are in the MMR brackets, where you have to contend with 5 players of a similar, or significantly higher skill level, while being basically forbidden from experimenting with different heroes and builds. That said, there are... certain ways around this. Queuing with lower level goons for instance. This is silly. You're totally free to do and play whatever you want as long as you're fine with your MMR changing. If I decided that I was going to master Meepo or Chen or some other hero I'm currently really uncomfortable with then I'm probably going to lose more often for a while. That's a shame, but if I really belonged at my previous MMR I should be able to get back there.
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Mar 15, 2014 11:00
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I started my mmr at 3750 or something and decided one day I was going to teach myself Queen of Pain for 80 games or so. Well losing 700 mmr points in a week is pretty hard to get back turns out and I'm just now back to 3600 range after maybe 2 months or so. It sucked seeing the score go down so far but I got a lot better at the hero and now I'm back to where I started. Queen of Pain is a hard hero to win with though in my opinion unless you're really, really good with mechanics and even then I started playing her right after she got nerfed which was probably not the smartest thing to do if I was really concerned with my mmr.
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Mar 15, 2014 11:38
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sesh posted:I spent a lot of time asking around and looking for 5k+ mmr mainly-support players and all I came up with were: I'm 5k and I play mostly supports/random heroes http://dotabuff.com/players/47234894. I've been playing a lot of chen, visage and shadow shaman lately.
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Mar 15, 2014 13:08
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FlyinPingu posted:I don't play ranked because I like having all of the good game modes in the rotation and there is little appeal in watching a number go up/down for me. This is pretty much me. I still haven't even finished my calibration matches. Every time I think I want to play ranked I inevitably end up playing a game of AR, SD, RD, or RAD. Just so much funner.
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Mar 15, 2014 14:33
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5-man ranked is great for playing Captains Mode and such, good replacement for team matches as few people play every 5-man with the same lineup. I never play solo ranked though, and very seldom 2-3 man ranked. I will say though that random pub players you get in ranked tend to be a lot easier to work with on average than the ones you get in unranked.
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Mar 15, 2014 14:39
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KnoxZone posted:This is pretty much me. I still haven't even finished my calibration matches. Every time I think I want to play ranked I inevitably end up playing a game of AR, SD, RD, or RAD. Just so much funner. Me too. I've never touched ranked because I'd rather see what I get in Single Draft and how to cope with picking the only support amongst four carries, or how not to play support Alch. Sometimes I want to play a specific hero, though, and then I realise having every other game mode queued is not conductive to that, but people in All Pick are impossible. I'll have to do this thing called "playing with Goons" at some point.
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Mar 15, 2014 15:03
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KnoxZone posted:This is pretty much me. I still haven't even finished my calibration matches. Every time I think I want to play ranked I inevitably end up playing a game of AR, SD, RD, or RAD. Just so much funner. I played ranked enough to get calibration and my number's not too low so I don't really care that much.
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Mar 15, 2014 15:06
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Merlini HATES this woman! Stay at home mom figures out 1 simple trick to Raise Your MMR.
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Mar 15, 2014 15:59
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You know, I wouldn't expect anything less from Dota, when one of the absolute worst pub heroes, Wisp, has a 94% win rate with the highest ranked pub player who plays it nearly exclusively
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Mar 15, 2014 16:07
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MMR is important because once you hit 5000 your name gets automatically added to a database of future pros and then you get picked up by Navi and win TI4.
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Mar 15, 2014 16:16
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The MMR system is bullshit because I was given a lower rating based on my performance than someone else who apparently did better than I did in the same exact system that follows the same exact metrics for everyone
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Mar 15, 2014 16:20
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:Merlini HATES this woman! Stay at home mom figures out 1 simple trick to Raise Your MMR. Is this a joke about Merlini living with his mother?
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Mar 15, 2014 16:23
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Firebatgyro posted:So a case that has no bearing on actual Dota, cool, thanks Even if you disagree with the point, you have to agree that sometimes pub Dota is not actual Dota.
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Mar 15, 2014 16:25
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Aferisan posted:I never played StarCraft I don't get your analogy Basically the equivalent of playing 5v1 dota, where the 1 is a bot. A lot of people do not enjoy games where failure is expected. Personally I think between DOTA2 and Dark Souls 2 I just like games that are hard and make you mad?
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Mar 15, 2014 16:25
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El Pollo Blanco posted:Is this a joke about Merlini living with his mother? Have you never seen those Ads? 'DENTISTS HATE THIS WOMEN. STAY AT HOME MOM HAS ONE SIMPLE TRICK TO WHITEN TEETH!' 
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Mar 15, 2014 16:45
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Spunky Psycho Ho posted:You know, I wouldn't expect anything less from Dota, when one of the absolute worst pub heroes, Wisp, has a 94% win rate with the highest ranked pub player who plays it nearly exclusively What's the deal with that guy? His build is basically the same everygame and its superweird. He doesn't even get boots. I'm guessing he most exclusively play with another guy that wisp combos with for the build to make sense? El Pollo Blanco posted:Is this a joke about Merlini living with his mother? Its a joke about all those terrible ads with tricks discovered by bored single mothers. Anyone save that image someone made about Puck's weight loss?
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Mar 15, 2014 16:47
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Internet Kraken posted:What's the deal with that guy? His build is basically the same everygame and its superweird. He doesn't even get boots. I'm guessing he most exclusively play with another guy that wisp combos with for the build to make sense? He plays with Ursas and Alchemists and groups with other semi-talented doters who intentionally tank their mmr to stay in low brackets.
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Mar 15, 2014 16:53
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Internet Kraken posted:What's the deal with that guy? His build is basically the same everygame and its superweird. He doesn't even get boots. I'm guessing he most exclusively play with another guy that wisp combos with for the build to make sense? I don't know all the replays are expired. He doesn't seem to play with any single person that much and it just looks like a random hard carry every game. So weird. Its must be some troll by a chinese super genius
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Mar 15, 2014 16:53
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Is Radiance a "core" item for Naga Siren? What's a good build for fair to middlin' farm, if I'm not getting crazy farm in lane?
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Mar 15, 2014 17:11
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You have to have some kind of super autism to play that hero every game. Also hate having fun. The wisp savant that is.
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Mar 15, 2014 17:11
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hubris.height posted:Is Radiance a "core" item for Naga Siren? What's a good build for fair to middlin' farm, if I'm not getting crazy farm in lane? Diffusal is the alternate item if you can't make a Radiance. You can often do pretty well just getting Diffusal then going straight to Manta or Heart. But you really do need a Diffusal OR a Radiance. If you don't have one of the two, then why are you playing Naga?
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Mar 15, 2014 17:15
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Lets! Get! Weird! posted:You have to have some kind of super autism to play that hero every game.
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Mar 15, 2014 17:21
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Wisp would actually be a really nuanced, interesting, complicated hero to master. There's nothing easy about playing Wisp.
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Mar 15, 2014 17:35
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