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Habibi posted:And so again, why would there be an obligation to protect those who can protect themselves whom he hates, so long as their actions are right, but not those whom he likes, as long as their actions are right? Is there going to be a further oath obligating him towards people he's ambivalent towards? What about ones he just hasn't made up his mind about? If it's right, why isn't it just right? Why is it right for some, up to you for others? Like I said, it seems that interpreting it this way generates a lot more loose ends than if it were a case of reinforcing for Kaladin just what the oath he had previously taken meant. You're being a pedant, now. The base state for a Windrunner is "protect". The oaths aren't "I will do only these things", they are more like personal acceptance of how they should act. The first ideal covers anyone who can protect themselves whose actions are right, under “Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.” Life before death says keep people alive. Strength before weakness could easily be "Right before wrong". Journey before destination says you're never finished. All three of those concepts cover what you want spelled out in legalese. None of them specifically cover the next two ideals, which is why they're there. They require the speaker to more fully understand what being a Windrunner means.
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Apr 6, 2014 08:56
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I took journey before destination to mean that the end does not justify the means. Kal can't assassinate Elhokar, even to save lives, because that would be a dishonorable action.
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Apr 6, 2014 10:31
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Dude. You guys. Seriously.
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Apr 6, 2014 12:19
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Kruller posted:You're being a pedant, now. The base state for a Windrunner is "protect". The oaths aren't "I will do only these things", they are more like personal acceptance of how they should act. The first ideal covers anyone who can protect themselves whose actions are right, under “Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination.” Life before death says keep people alive. Strength before weakness could easily be "Right before wrong". Journey before destination says you're never finished. All three of those concepts cover what you want spelled out in legalese. None of them specifically cover the next two ideals, which is why they're there. They require the speaker to more fully understand what being a Windrunner means. Boy I sure am glad you've got this figured out without jumping to any huge but tenuous assumptions, all of which could be easily interpreted in a variety of ways (eg: journey before destination is clearly about means vs ends).  BananaNutkins posted:I took journey before destination to mean that the end does not justify the means. Yeah, pretty much. Go figure.
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Apr 6, 2014 15:53
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It's also entirely possible that Sanderson was just logically inconsistent when coming up with Kaladin's new oath. He is human after all...
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Apr 6, 2014 16:18
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Shakugan posted:It's also entirely possible that Sanderson was just logically inconsistent when coming up with Kaladin's new oath. He is human after all... Which, to be fair, I allowed for in my previous post. And, as I said. if that ends up being the case - oh well. Habibi fucked around with this message at 16:28 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 16:23
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Compare them to Asimov's Laws of Robotics. One is about how his actions need to be. The other is about how he can't avoid that oath through inaction.
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Apr 6, 2014 16:24
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Infinite Karma posted:Compare them to Asimov's Laws of Robotics. One is about how his actions need to be. The other is about how he can't avoid that oath through inaction. Aside from any objections I might voice regarding the validity of that comparison, I'll point out that those two tenets - action and preventing inaction - were, under Asimov's system, part of the same rule. 
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Apr 6, 2014 16:39
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Habibi posted:Aside from any objections I might voice regarding the validity of that comparison, I'll point out that those two tenets - action and preventing inaction - were, under Asimov's system, part of the same rule. That's kinda splitting hairs? If they were logically equivalent, there wouldn't be two parts to the first law. And apparently Syl hasn't read I, Robot. I'm still going to say the the second oath is essentially My actions will be good. and the third is My inactions won't be evil.
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Apr 6, 2014 16:56
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Infinite Karma posted:That's kinda splitting hairs? If they were logically equivalent, there wouldn't be two parts to the first law. quote:I'm still going to say the the second oath is essentially My actions will be good. and the third is My inactions won't be evil.
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Apr 6, 2014 17:16
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Why is this even a thing to argue over for multiple days? So Sanderson apparently didn't take the time to get a lawyer/Spock/autist to double check the magical vows people made to gain the loyalty of magical sentient ideas, why the gently caress do you guys care so much if it's iron-clad logical or not? There's magic and fantastical elements involved. Fuckin' spren probably just need the right state of mind.
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Apr 6, 2014 17:25
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I imagine if a WindRunner starts bitching about their oaths being illogical, that Windrunner then gets reassigned to a Cryptic division.
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Apr 6, 2014 18:14
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I think this whole topic is silly. It pretty clearly meant that he would have to protect the weak and the innocent with the second oath and protect people he hates or disagrees with even if they aren't innocent and/or can protect themselves with the third. Anything else is pretty much dumb rule lawyering which we have seen doesn't work with honor spren. Vire fucked around with this message at 05:31 on Apr 7, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 22:16
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It's pretty obvious, to me, that within the context, his Oaths are increasing each time. 1. Basic Oath all KR take. 2. Go out of your way to protect the weak. 3. Go out of your way to protect ANYONE even if you disagree with them, when it is right. They're additive, as a person who would be chosen by the Honor spren (described by Sanderson as fairly discriminating in their selection) would, in the first place, be the kind of person who protects others. The second is increasing their commitment to all people who can't protect themselves. Example: Kaladin protecting just the Bridgemen (first oath) to Kaladin protecting innocents who are not a part of his 'circle.' The third Oath includes protecting anyone when it is right, including those he hates. Examples: Kaladin protects Elhokar, because it's right even though Elhokar is neither defenseless nor is he part of Kaladin's circle. vs. Kaladin protecting a random peasant woman. 1st Oath: drive to protect. 2nd Oath: drive to defense of the innocent. 3rd Oath: drive to protect ANYONE when it is right. Sure you can play quibbly word games the way some posters in this thread want to, but Honor spren are in-universe designed to not select pedantic rules lawyers as Wind Runners as described by the author. It's a silly argument. If you don't understand it just chalk it up to you not being the sort of person whose life experiences would allow the same viewpoint and understand that This fantasy book character is internally consistent even though he's different than you. Edit: Spoilers! Sorry about that, I forgot not everyone bought it on day one and powered through it. vv Exactly. Some people arguing seem to thing Kaladin is living his life the way they'd want to min/max a Paladin who stuck, literally, to his Oaths, but still found a way to get that +14 Sword of Slaying despite their vow of poverty or whatever vv Yngwie Mangosteen fucked around with this message at 23:05 on Apr 6, 2014 |
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Apr 6, 2014 22:40
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And yeah that means he doesn't have a oath that requires him to protect his best bros, since he'll do that without needing one.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:48
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nucleicmaxid posted:Stuff Regarding the whole oath argument: As someone else stated, Brandon did not mean for Kaladin's second and third oath to be the universal oath for every windrunner. Rather, it was his interpretation of doing the honorable thing. Kaladin was brought up in a rural town with excellent medical training but not in other studies. Thank god his father was not a lawyer.
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Apr 6, 2014 22:53
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I've been looking at the hourglass shaped image that shows the various orders of the Knights Radiant and how their powers connect. We've been told that spren tend to originate from Honor, Cultivation or both. I think this graphic is laid out with orders that bond spren from Honor at the top, and the orders with Cultivation spren at the bottom. The top has Windrunners (the obvious one, they have honorspren), Bondsmiths, and Stonewards; all of which have given some indication of being more ideologically honor driven than the other orders. The bottom however has lightweavers, truth watchers (seeing the future is a cultivation power, not of honor) and edgedancers (Lift's spren talks about his mistress who is inferred to be cultivation). This would leave the remaining 4 orders as a mixture of honor and cultivation
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Apr 7, 2014 05:25
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keiran_helcyan posted:I've been looking at the hourglass shaped image that shows the various orders of the Knights Radiant and how their powers connect. We've been told that spren tend to originate from Honor, Cultivation or both. I think this graphic is laid out with orders that bond spren from Honor at the top, and the orders with Cultivation spren at the bottom. The top has Windrunners (the obvious one, they have honorspren), Bondsmiths, and Stonewards; all of which have given some indication of being more ideologically honor driven than the other orders. The bottom however has lightweavers, truth watchers (seeing the future is a cultivation power, not of honor) and edgedancers (Lift's spren talks about his mistress who is inferred to be cultivation). This would leave the remaining 4 orders as a mixture of honor and cultivation huh, that... actually makes sense, I hadn't even thought of it like that before. Sanderson always seems to have a plan for everything, even if it seems like a small detail at the time. Re-reading the books you pick up so many small things that seemed incongruous at the time but in hindsight you can see where they go. Also, seriously, why are people sperging about the vows?! Sanderson has said that Kaladin said the 3rd vow in several QAs, that's it, there is no discussion to even be had, if you think different you are at best being completely ignorant. You would be better placed at guessing what the 4th and 5th oaths will be, at least that might be amusing.
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Apr 7, 2014 08:59
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I'm guessing they're leadership based, since his divine attributes are Protecting/Leading, and with one generic oath, and two protecting oaths, having two leading oaths kinda makes a good balance.
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Apr 7, 2014 15:54
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Wowzer, that was a good read. Kind of annoyed Jasnah came back (also, where did she get a Shard??) not because I didn't like her, but because it cheapens death in the series. Hopefully this doesn't set a lovely Robert Jordan esque precedent. Need to go reread Warbreaker now, which kind of sucks because I thought it to be the weakest of Sandersons writing that I've read so far, then I need to check out Elantris and Emperor's Soul. Were there any characters in SA that were from the Elantris/Emperor's Soul shard, since apparently Nightblood and Vasher are kicking it in Roshar, which is awesome as poo poo might I add. I really hope this series towards the end turns into a literary version of Heroes of the Storm as Vin and Kaladin team up to gently caress up Odium.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:12
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Krypsis posted:(also, where did she get a Shard??) She's a Radiant. It's her spren.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:32
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Dravs posted:huh, that... actually makes sense, I hadn't even thought of it like that before. Sanderson always seems to have a plan for everything, even if it seems like a small detail at the time. Re-reading the books you pick up so many small things that seemed incongruous at the time but in hindsight you can see where they go. It's a cool idea. It makes me wonder, more fundamentally, why Honor and Cultivation (and presumably Odium) have spren at all? At first I thought Honor's shattering created them, but that's clearly not the whole story. So why don't the shards on other worlds create spren, or what do all the shards on Roshar have in common that causes them?
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Apr 7, 2014 20:35
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Dravs posted:huh, that... actually makes sense, I hadn't even thought of it like that before. Sanderson always seems to have a plan for everything, even if it seems like a small detail at the time. Re-reading the books you pick up so many small things that seemed incongruous at the time but in hindsight you can see where they go. Do we know there are additional Windrunner oaths? I'm assuming Sanderson hinted or outright stated it if people are throwing out those numbers. Also pretty sure Kaladin is going to put his oaths to another test in the next book when he meets up back in Hearthstone with Roshone. I fully expect Kaladin to want to kill him, but be unable to due to honor, then Roshone is gonna screw himself over by trying to kill Kaladin at which point Syl says "okay, he had his chance, cut his loving head off"
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Apr 7, 2014 20:46
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Krypsis posted:Wowzer, that was a good read. Kind of annoyed Jasnah came back Yeah there was a certain element of removing the emotional impact of her death and it throws every death afterwards into doubt. However up till she appeared at the end we didn't know she was a teleporter unless you studied the magic system. So it was a sweet reveal and Shallan got her personal growth and Jasnah has cool personal development and learned important things in/about Shadesmar. As long as Sanderson doesn't make a habit of it I don't mind.
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Apr 7, 2014 21:34
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I think I would have been ok with either (end of book spoilers for WoR) Jasnah or Szeth's revival... but not both, and not practically in back-to-back chapters! It's definitely kind of a trope that's very easily over-used, and I feel like having both of them at nearly at the same time crossed that line.
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Apr 7, 2014 21:58
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soru posted:It's a cool idea. It makes me wonder, more fundamentally, why Honor and Cultivation (and presumably Odium) have spren at all? At first I thought Honor's shattering created them, but that's clearly not the whole story. So why don't the shards on other worlds create spren, or what do all the shards on Roshar have in common that causes them? Dominion and Devotion create spren too. They not called Spren on Sel (Elantris/Emperor's Soul world), instead known as "Seons" and "Skaze". They bond to people just like spren (although without granting superpowers), and they act as smartphones-- storing knowledge like a computer and communicating with other Seons much like a cell phone. Otherwise, they talk and act exactly like spren, and even DESCRIBE themselves the same way as spren. Heck, they talked about Shadesmar! They definitely existed before splintering occurred, as it was stated that many of them lost their minds when Aona and Skai were killed / Devotion and Dominion were splintered, so they existed before that. Iunnrais fucked around with this message at 22:28 on Apr 7, 2014 |
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Apr 7, 2014 22:23
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There were adonalsium spren hanging around before any of the shards showed up.
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Apr 7, 2014 22:35
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Krypsis posted:Were there any characters in SA that were from the Elantris/Emperor's Soul shard. Worldhopping spoilers.Hoid, of course, is a beggar/smuggler in Elantris according to the Coppermind wiki, and he's the Imperial Fool who double-crosses Shai. And Galladon is in the Way of Kings, obliquely in the Purelake interlude along with Demoux from Mistborn and a character from the as yet unreleased White Sands. Speaking of, there are white sands in the Ghostbloods hideout prompting speculation that Mraize or others are worldhoppers.
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Apr 7, 2014 22:45
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Xachariah posted:Yeah there was a certain element of removing the emotional impact of her death and it throws every death afterwards into doubt. However up till she appeared at the end we didn't know she was a teleporter unless you studied the magic system. So it was a sweet reveal and Shallan got her personal growth and Jasnah has cool personal development and learned important things in/about Shadesmar. There's a very simple rule for these kinds of books, if a character dies right after hinting at an unrevealed power they will be back before the end of the next book or sooner. It's just how these things work.
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Apr 8, 2014 13:33
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Augster posted:She's a Radiant. It's her spren. Holy poo poo I feel stupid, duh!
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Apr 8, 2014 15:20
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Tunicate posted:There were adonalsium spren hanging around before any of the shards showed up. In what work? Where? Source?
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Apr 8, 2014 15:37
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Krypsis posted:Holy poo poo I feel stupid, duh! Yep, she's shown as starting the bonding process in the prologue. I feel like that would be interesting to see from her perspective. Most of the spren bonds have been fairly unique and interesting, though I'm pretty sure Ym and Lift have the same kind. I'm really interested in Rysn's one though.
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Apr 8, 2014 15:44
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Iunnrais posted:In what work? Where? Source? Brandon confirmed it at a signing. I will try and find the quote. api call girl posted:Yep, she's shown as starting the bonding process in the prologue. I feel like that would be interesting to see from her perspective. Most of the spren bonds have been fairly unique and interesting, though I'm pretty sure Ym and Lift have the same kind. I'm really interested in Rysn's one though. Rysn does not have a Spren I think? She is just learning to be a merchant. The animal that attaches itself to her on the Reshi greatshell will likely be significant in some way, as later on you see one being used to suck the Stormlight out of Lift. Apparently they were almost wiped out when Aimia was destroyed (which will also likely become significant later in the books) Dravs fucked around with this message at 16:12 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 16:08
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Sometimes, I wish Brandon would learn to just say RAFO. I mean, it's nice to get some fodder for speculation and discussion tossed to the fans from time to time, but I think Brandon goes a little far with the amount he drops. Things like the deleted chapter where the fool that betrayed Shai is confirmed to be Hoid? That's good tidbits to let out, since there'd be no other way to really communicate it. Things that might actually appear in future works? I think I'd rather be surprised in most cases.
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Apr 8, 2014 16:25
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Macdeo Lurjtux posted:There's a very simple rule for these kinds of books, if a character dies right after hinting at an unrevealed power they will be back before the end of the next book or sooner. It's just how these things work. The rule is: if a character is clearly Gandalf, they're coming back.
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Apr 8, 2014 16:42
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Iunnrais posted:Sometimes, I wish Brandon would learn to just say RAFO. I mean, it's nice to get some fodder for speculation and discussion tossed to the fans from time to time, but I think Brandon goes a little far with the amount he drops. Things like the deleted chapter where the fool that betrayed Shai is confirmed to be Hoid? That's good tidbits to let out, since there'd be no other way to really communicate it. Things that might actually appear in future works? I think I'd rather be surprised in most cases. Personally, I tend to draw a line between plot details and setting details. If it's not going to be a huge reveal that adonalsium spren were hanging around Roshar before anyone else got there, I don't mind knowing it before Jasnah learns that tidbit from an ancient robotform parshendi or before some epigraph mentions 'by the way Hoid can you swing by Roshar and pick up fifty gallons of unaligned spren viscera' or whatever. Honestly, I think the biggest plot detail Brandon has let slip is that Marsh survived the end of Mistborn, and that was something changed due to reader feedback (someone noticed that Marsh had atium left, and was part of the whole 'how did the lord ruler become immortal' conversation in book one). Tunicate fucked around with this message at 17:37 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 17:33
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That's the thing though, the way Sanderson writes, little setting details like that often turn into big plot points. Granted, there's no way to know until they happen.
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Apr 8, 2014 17:59
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Iunnrais posted:That's the thing though, the way Sanderson writes, little setting details like that often turn into big plot points. Granted, there's no way to know until they happen. It lets you see a lot of the hidden stuff spinning behind the scenes in his books though, which is cool - in the end, we won't expect many of the twists until they hit us in the face even though we may have had some information that would have helped us deduce them. A lot of the spoiled stuff is the kinda thing that won't be really explained in-book for like 10+ years, even at the rate he writes books, and even then it would just be people understanding the motivations/goals/backstory of Hoid & Friends and going back and rereading all the books and going 'ohhhh'. Instead, we get a sort of mystery or puzzle and have something to chew over and theorize about. Wolpertinger fucked around with this message at 18:09 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 18:07
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I get a little frustrated by that as well. I've read all the books, so it's frustrating when partaking in a discussion and being told "no you're wrong, the author confirmed that at a signing/convention/card game/blog post a few years back". I feel like Sanderson is taking a cue from Robert Jordan on this. I seem to remember that he loved dropping little tidbits at conventions and whatnot back when he was still writing WoT. I was reluctant to join in on any discussions, even though I'd read all the books, because there was a huge catalog of tidbits he'd released at conventions and signings that were very difficult to keep track of!
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Apr 8, 2014 19:46
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syphon posted:I get a little frustrated by that as well. I've read all the books, so it's frustrating when partaking in a discussion and being told "no you're wrong, the author confirmed that at a signing/convention/card game/blog post a few years back". Yeah, I can understand that being irritating. I'm probably one of the worst offenders for that, mostly because my brain is a steel trap solely when it comes to pointless bits of trivia. Theoryland is generally a decent place to find consolidated miscellaneous tidbits, but stuff can slip between their fingers.
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Apr 8, 2014 19:58
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