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Accordion Man posted:When it comes to the genetics thing wasn't it actually canon that Liquid is a moron and was just being lied to about all that? I'm still going with that regardless. I've heard this mentioned a couple of times so I wouldn't be surprised.
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Apr 7, 2014 19:46
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That's not even getting into the shenanigans with Ocelot and Liquid's Arm. First it actually had psychically taken him over, then he replaced it and had hypnotised himself to THINK it was taking him over, then it was a fake all along and he was just doing it to gently caress with people
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Apr 7, 2014 19:48
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Neruz posted:I've heard this mentioned a couple of times so I wouldn't be surprised. He was being lied to, but not in the smart way of "that's not how genetics work" but in the "he actually got all the dominant genes."
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Apr 7, 2014 19:52
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Kurieg posted:That's not even getting into the shenanigans with Ocelot and Liquid's Arm. First it actually had psychically taken him over, then he replaced it and had hypnotised himself to THINK it was taking him over, then it was a fake all along and he was just doing it to gently caress with people Totally in line with Ocelot himself though.
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Apr 7, 2014 19:54
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Kurieg posted:That's not even getting into the shenanigans with Ocelot and Liquid's Arm. First it actually had psychically taken him over, then he replaced it and had hypnotised himself to THINK it was taking him over, then it was a fake all along and he was just doing it to gently caress with people Yeah, Liquid was first actually possessing him in MGS2, Ocelot removed the arm, then thought that the whole possession thing was actually pretty cool and hypnotized himself to think it was still happening. This is apparently because Ocelot himself used to be a Patriot agent, so getting mind-hijacked by Liquid was a good way to justify to people why he had turned on them and was seeking to take them over. Like, in MGS1 (according to the full story laid out in 2 and 4) Ocelot was working for President Sears (Solidus) to incite Liquid to rebel and hijack Metal Gear Rex as an anti-Patriot plot. Solid Snake defeated Liquid, but the existence of Metal Gears were revealed and Solidus had to resign. Next, Solidus and Ocelot took over Metal Gear Ray and used it to help in their hijacking of Arsenal Gear, the Patriots' internet boat/giant submarine on the ocean floor thingy, but Ocelot was a Patriot double agent and planned it so that Raiden, the Patriots' golden boy, would get a chance to go in and become a Solid Snake-tier warrior and murder his "father," Solidus, personally. While the Patriots' scheme ended up happening and Raiden killed Solidus, Liquid hijacked Ocelot's body and turned him against both the Patriots and Solidus, and left with Ray in the hopes of eliminating the Patriots. Once Ocelot came to, he apparently realized that this had put him in the perfect position to strike out on his own and kept up the act that he was Liquid while plotting to take over the Patriot's tools for controlling the world for his own purposes. TL;DR MGS is actually the Ocelot story. The Snakes are just along for the ride.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:02
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Kurieg posted:That's not even getting into the shenanigans with Ocelot and Liquid's Arm. First it actually had psychically taken him over, then he replaced it and had hypnotised himself to THINK it was taking him over, then it was a fake all along and he was just doing it to gently caress with people Yeah, it was never, ever a fake all along. He was definitely being taken over in MGS2.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:26
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Ocelot is indeed the best character in Metal Gear. He is the true hero of the series.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:27
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The way I interpret it is that Ocelot was a loyal Philospher (American branch) agent. The Patriots assumed they'd inherit his loyalty, since major Zero thought he was upholding up The Boss's ideals. Once Ocelot noticed that the Patriots had become something that The Boss would not have approved of, he set up to destroy them utterly. Also, they hosed up Big Boss big time and Ocelot really, really looked up to him. After the decision, organizing the biggest con ever in history was simply an extension of the bastard's twisted personality. I might be giving him too much credit, though, the whole sheabang might just have been because he spotted a chance to take over the world and he took it. As for the Liquid's arm, the timeline was: Liquid possesses him during MGS2 on the tanker (and maybe during the end of the game); Ocelot kicks him out because he's the Sorrow's son and he takes lip from no ghost; he notices being Liquid Ocelot is a bloody amazing element for his con; MGS4 happens. I don't know if the Liquid takeover at the end of MGS2 was genuine or faked but MGS4 was all Ocelot. If your head is starting to hurt from the MGS chat, congratulations. That means you still have your sanity. What does it say about me if I can track all this BS without much problems?
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Apr 7, 2014 20:28
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Also, Ocelot had ghost powers through his daddy The Sorrow, which made possession easier. This means that Kojima had an idea about the ghost arm and Ocelot's lineage from the beginning. EDIT: Ocelot is such a great double agent, he even managed to fool himself.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:32
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MGS chat is so goddamn bizarre that even the characters themselves get it wrong sometimes. Don't feel bad if you can't keep up, just roll with it.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:32
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Going back, wasn't Stalin the Russian leader back in Civ 1? I'm kinda glad that got changed.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:37
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Cosmic Afro posted:Going back, wasn't Stalin the Russian leader back in Civ 1? I'm kinda glad that got changed. He was a leader in Civ 4 as well. They've sort of been tagging back and forth between Catherine and him, with one incarnation of Peter in Civ 4 and one name-only incarnation of Lenin in Civ 2 being the exceptions.
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Apr 7, 2014 20:45
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They've also had Mao in all of them except 5.
Accordion Man fucked around with this message at 21:20 on Apr 7, 2014 |
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Apr 7, 2014 21:17
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Accordion Man posted:When it comes to the genetics thing wasn't it actually canon that Liquid is a moron and was just being lied to about all that? I'm still going with that regardless. Well, it would have to go through the rest of FOXHOUND to agree to the plan. Ocelot is probably on the conspiracy for whatever reason, but I don't see something as stupid as dominant and recessive genes going through Mantis or Wolf, those both seemed fairly intelligent.
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Apr 7, 2014 21:19
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You mean people defeated by lying down and hiding behind a tree and firing Nikita missiles nonstop, respectively?
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Apr 7, 2014 22:35
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SpookyLizard posted:You mean people defeated by using the second gamepad and hiding behind a tree and firing Nikita missiles nonstop, respectively? I'm pretty sure that's how that one actually went down.
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Apr 7, 2014 22:44
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ViggyNash posted:I'm gonna guess that the best way to play her is to obliterate anyone the moment you meet them. Let them expand a bit, then take a ton of their cities and leave them with one lovely city. Nullify the unhappiness penalty with Illusion Realms, and keep them alive for the yield bonus. For bonus points, use Civ 4 Diplomacy Features so you can force them to capitulate! ViggyNash posted:I have found the most interesting and innovative mod in Civ 5 history: Because "muh historical realism" in a game which can have America, the Roman Empire, Japan, and Polynesia on the same continent in 4000 BC. Cosmic Afro posted:Going back, wasn't Stalin the Russian leader back in Civ 1? I'm kinda glad that got changed. Stalin appeared in multiple past Civ games, but they opted not to use him in 5 since it only allows for one leader per Civilization and they'd rather use their Russian mainstay Catherine. Of course, I always play with JFD's Soviet Russia featuring Stalin to correct this. He also has an alternate Soviet Union led by Lenin.
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Apr 7, 2014 22:48
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Omobono posted:
It means that Kojima has successfully infected you with his muheeeeeeeems?
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Apr 7, 2014 23:30
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Either that or it's time to move to the next level: making a comprehensive mental record of the Metal Gear Ac!d games. (Which is about the only way to have a handy contextual reference of the games, because like three MGA1 LPs have died on this forum alone)
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Apr 7, 2014 23:46
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I missed the XCOM chat, but that cross-promotion goes both ways. (minor Enemy Within Spoilers) When hunting down EXALT, you gain clues about which country or region they're in. One of the clues is "The EXALT Base is/is not in a country you can play in Civilisation 5." It is the goofiest thing.
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Apr 8, 2014 00:14
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Yeah when I first saw that I thought I was playing Carmen Sandiego for a moment. It's like "This is how you want me to narrow this down?"
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Apr 8, 2014 00:24
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Kurieg posted:Yeah when I first saw that I thought I was playing Carmen Sandiego for a moment. It's like "This is how you want me to narrow this down?" EDIT: Gonna spoiler it a bit, because ehn. To be fair to the game, it does show you which countries it means when you get a new clue. Still really goofy. This is important as perhaps in years, there's gonna be other civilization games and people ain't gonna know what the gently caress. Speaking of that, has there been talks of expansions for Civ5 again so far?
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Apr 8, 2014 02:52
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Cosmic Afro posted:EDIT: Gonna spoiler it a bit, because ehn. To be fair to the game, it does show you which countries it means when you get a new clue. Still really goofy. This is important as perhaps in years, there's gonna be other civilization games and people ain't gonna know what the gently caress. Speaking of that, has there been talks of expansions for Civ5 again so far? I believe it's been stated that Civ 5 is finished as is. Whatever comes next will almost assuredly be Civ 6.
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Apr 8, 2014 02:59
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Cosmic Afro posted:EDIT: Gonna spoiler it a bit, because ehn. To be fair to the game, it does show you which countries it means when you get a new clue. Still really goofy. This is important as perhaps in years, there's gonna be other civilization games and people ain't gonna know what the gently caress. google.com -> "Countries in Civ 5". Problem resolved.
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Apr 8, 2014 10:53
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Omobono posted:The way I interpret it is that Ocelot was a loyal Philospher (American branch) agent. The Patriots assumed they'd inherit his loyalty, since major Zero thought he was upholding up The Boss's ideals. Once Ocelot noticed that the Patriots had become something that The Boss would not have approved of, he set up to destroy them utterly. Also, they hosed up Big Boss big time and Ocelot really, really looked up to him. After the decision, organizing the biggest con ever in history was simply an extension of the bastard's twisted personality. I might be giving him too much credit, though, the whole sheabang might just have been because he spotted a chance to take over the world and he took it. I'll ask since we're on the subject and this was the thing sticking in my craw. In the post MGS4 wrap up, BB comes back to visit Solid. Where has he been this whole time? Locked up in suspended animation, alive but essentially in a coma for the past 15(?) years. (Whenever Solid beat him in the original NES games). He was put there by the Patriots/Zero and could only be released if the Patriots were taken offline. OK, it's soap opera, but hardly the strangest thing introduced in this crazy series. I'll even let slide the fact that even though he's been in suspension for essentially the entire MGS series he knows what's been going on in the outside world in great detail and even better than the people who lived through it. That's fine, he's just (temporarily) living narration. But his escape was engineered by Ocelot (and Eva). You know, the guy who you've been combating the whole time. So, is Ocelot (who may or may not be faking demonic possession by this point) setting up the dominoes specifically so Solid can come in, bring it all crashing down, and free BB from suspension? Or does Ocelot really want all that power for himself, to control the Patriots and essentially rule the world? Or is it even option three where, regardless of the outcome, he wins? If BB is freed, Ocelot wins because his idol gets out of suspension. If Solid fails in his infiltration attempts, then "Liquid" gets to rule the world, and wins that way.
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Apr 8, 2014 15:05
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CzarChasm posted:I'll ask since we're on the subject and this was the thing sticking in my craw. In the post MGS4 wrap up, BB comes back to visit Solid. Where has he been this whole time? Locked up in suspended animation, alive but essentially in a coma for the past 15(?) years. (Whenever Solid beat him in the original NES games). He was put there by the Patriots/Zero and could only be released if the Patriots were taken offline. Didn't Ocelot try to kill Big Boss that EVA had, but turned out was Solidus, or was that just another dumb plot point that I didn't notice? Honestly, I think Ocelot was just loving with everyone in the end.
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Apr 8, 2014 15:17
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My understanding of it was that Ocelot's plan from the start was to get BB out of cryo, and whether he did it himself as "Liquid" taking over the System or Snake did it by shutting the whole thing down didn't matter. Either way, the Patriots go down and BB gets out.
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Apr 8, 2014 15:40
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Derek Barona posted:Either way, the Patriots go down and BB gets out. Saw this sentence first and forgot what thread I was in. I was halfway to ESPN.com in a blind panic before I realized my mistake.  (e: also if Bill Belichick chose to go by the name "Big Boss" I'd go along with it. It fits.) Vicevirtuoso posted:Stalin appeared in multiple past Civ games, but they opted not to use him in 5 since it only allows for one leader per Civilization and they'd rather use their Russian mainstay Catherine. Of course, I always play with JFD's Soviet Russia featuring Stalin to correct this. He also has an alternate Soviet Union led by Lenin. Honestly choosing not to include mass-murderer tyrants as playable characters in their game but only if they're from the 20th century is a pretty decent compromise in my opinion. Like, Bismarck was probably as bad as Stalin by some metric which I won't bother to look up, but you're unlikely to find anyone still sore over things that happened in the 19th century, whereas you could still find plenty of people alive today whose immediate family members were killed by Stalin.
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Apr 8, 2014 16:04
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The thing with Stalin is that he is mostly remembered for the bad he did; he is more notorious than famous. Stalin is mostly remembered for the negative things he did rather than the positive, whether one outweighs the other is something for philosophers to discuss.
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Apr 8, 2014 16:27
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Wasn't the whole Big Boss at the end of MGS4 thing a last-minute addition anyway, as the scene was originally supposed to end with Snake blowing his own brains out?
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Apr 8, 2014 16:40
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The original ending that Kojima wanted was Otacon and Snake being executed for war crimes but the dev team would have none of that.
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Apr 8, 2014 16:56
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Accordion Man posted:The original ending that Kojima wanted was Otacon and Snake being executed for war crimes but the dev team would have none of that. They outright mutinied. Telling Kojima that he was full of it, and Snake deserved his rest. Honestly I don't have as many issues with the BB reveal that most people have. Its cheesy, it's goofy, and it's strange. Just like the entire loving game, minus the microwave hallway and return to Shadow Moses. Only issue I have is that if BB Knew that snake would kill him via foxdie, why not send someone else? Ocelot and EVA gave so much for him to live once again. Why piss it all away like that? All he had to do is hire someone to bring a laptop or something to the grave, and then video chat with him. Telling him that he was sorry, etc. etc.
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Apr 8, 2014 17:01
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Man, I usually think Kojima is a lovely writer who gets away with a lot of bad writing, and the one time he's genuinely on ball with something that would've strengthened the story like that, the dev team shoots him down.
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Apr 8, 2014 17:02
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Night10194 posted:Man, I usually think Kojima is a lovely writer who gets away with a lot of bad writing, and the one time he's genuinely on ball with something that would've strengthened the story like that, the dev team shoots him down. How exactly would killing the two main characters strengthen the story, instead of just being a punch in the balls and a 'gently caress you for all you've done with these two characters'?
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Apr 8, 2014 17:06
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E-Tank posted:How exactly would killing the two main characters strengthen the story, instead of just being a punch in the balls and a 'gently caress you for all you've done with these two characters'? Remember that Kojima didn't want to write MGS2; MGS2 is deliberately obtuse and stupid and insane because Kojima was trying to troll the fans into hating the series so he could go do something else instead. e; And he has been basically doing the same ever since. The reason MGS plots are so insane is because Kojima is deliberately trying to gently caress with his fans. Neruz fucked around with this message at 18:20 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 17:11
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpSVCL4vxOY They left this song in the ending credits of MGS4, presumably for that story. In case you hadn't heard it before, that's not an original song, it's over 40 years old. It's an ode to Sacco and Vanzetti, two Italian-American anarchists who were executed for a crime that they (probably) didn't commit. Note that the singer keeps saying "Here's to you, Nicola and Bart/Rest forever here in our hearts/the last and final moment is yours/that agony is your triumph." It's a reference to the brutal pain of the electric chair. The song only makes sense in the credit if our two heroic non-state actors end up scapegoated for the USA government dropping the ball and letting Ocelot get as far as he did. Kojima apparently really likes this song because he used it again in Ground Zeroes, where it's more appropriate except on one count: unlike Sacco and Vanzetti, Big Boss and Kaz are most certainly not innocent.
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Apr 8, 2014 17:11
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Yeah, in retrospect that ending would have fit the themes of the series better, that governments can be corrupt and incompetent, totally willing to throw the innocent public into the slaughter for their own personal gain or to scapegoat their own incompetence.
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Apr 8, 2014 17:35
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Accordion Man posted:Yeah, in retrospect that ending would have fit the themes of the series better, that governments can be corrupt and incompetent, totally willing to throw the innocent public into the slaughter for their own personal gain or to scapegoat their own incompetence. Oh you mean the exact same ending of Metal Gear Solid 3?
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Apr 8, 2014 19:54
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E-Tank posted:Oh you mean the exact same ending of Metal Gear Solid 3? Which was pretty much what set the entire rest of the series into motion as a bonus?
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Apr 8, 2014 19:57
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Derek Barona posted:Which was pretty much what set the entire rest of the series into motion as a bonus? And basically implies that nothing ever changes, why bother even trying. Edit: Though you might be one of those people who like bad endings and grimdark to the max so I dunno. Either way I feel that the 'Oh its all so pointless' is too loving depressing. We have enough of that in real life, should we really have it pervading our stories meant to distract ourselves from our lovely, lovely lives? E-Tank fucked around with this message at 20:18 on Apr 8, 2014 |
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Apr 8, 2014 20:01
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