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JerryLee posted:Do you think this has the same etiology as FFG not paying their employees a living wage for reasonable hours though? I mean, they (or Wizards, or GW, or) are the ones selling the $30-50 and up rulebooks, and there isn't the sort of expectation that there is with tiny indie stuff that it be given away for free or PWYWed--plenty of people will bitch endlessly about the rising price of Magic or 40K ( Well, the two go hand in hand. The people in charge of those companies are part of the whole thing, deliberately underpaying their talent on the basis that it's easy to get excited RPG writers to work for them. One company (Mongoose publishing) produced a whole book about it which has advice like asking artists to work for publicity to minimize overhead. Don't buy that book unless you feel like getting angry at Mongoose. The RPG industry isn't alone in this, but it's a noticable trend in it in particular thanks to being an entirely creative industry. The company heads are in a lot of ways mirroring their consumers. When they're not buying massive 500 page tomes in full color for 60-80 dollars, they want their stuff cheap or free, and a lot of people think supplements are selling in the hundreds to justify their piracy/low costs/pwyw when the reality is closer to dozens. I am absolutely in favor of the increased transparency going on lately in these things. I await the time when glassfloor is flooded with GW refugees!
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Apr 20, 2014 03:51
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) but they generally don't literally feel entitled to have it given to them for free, or if they do, they're the far lunatic fringe.
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Wargames and miniatures games are mainly dominated by basement dwelling titty model buying nerds who like complex rules. If there was a much broader range of those type of games, similar to boardgames, then there could possibly be a new reachable audience. Games that are simpler, cheaper, and less nerd power-fantasy. However, aren't many boardgames essentially simpler, cheaper, and broader miniatures games? I just can't see the sell to a normal when it comes to that level of nerd depth. Don't get me wrong, it's lovely that the toxic community pushes away non toxic people who have an interest in the hobby in spite of said community. Kai Tave posted:If for some reason GW decided that they wanted to actively court their older, groggy fanbase I have no doubt in my mind that the number of female characters displaying conspicuous amounts of cleavage would start to sharply rise if the guys in Marketing thought it would earn them a bigger payday. This is a very good point. 40k is more interested in extremely dumb juvenile skulls and death stuff. It's still a very niche market and you can't really convince GW to diverge from it. If you feel uncomfortable about the shameful models in your game, you may not be the target audience of the game. Someone come up with that perfect game with complex rules and better models, you won't make any money but you'll feel good.
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Apr 20, 2014 03:53
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Bull. loving. poo poo. The vast preponderance of titty models and handwaving it away with claims that it's okay because whatever fabricated loving reason of the second is is exactly what drives away women from the hobby. Women who are-- or were-- interested until they find that these games' baseline treatment of women is horrible, that the sex models are so pervasive it's not even possible to play the game with your own friends and be comfortable.
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Apr 20, 2014 03:59
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stoutfish posted:Wargames and miniatures games are mainly dominated by basement dwelling titty model buying nerds who like complex rules. If there was a much broader range of those type of games, similar to boardgames, then there could possibly be a new reachable audience. Games that are simpler, cheaper, and less nerd power-fantasy. maybe the industry should stop catering to shitlords because wider audiences == more money
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Apr 20, 2014 03:59
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stoutfish posted:However, aren't many boardgames essentially simpler, cheaper, and broader miniatures games? I just can't see the sell to a normal when it comes to that level of nerd depth. Don't get me wrong, it's lovely that the toxic community pushes away non toxic people who have an interest in the hobby in spite of said community. Are you actually using that un-ironically? Because while the terrible models are definitely more offensive in general, the kind of attitude that leads to statements like that is probably as much or more a problem. Treating people who haven't gamed before like some kind of other, or taking on some persecution complex over it, definitely drives people away from the community.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:03
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Captain Foo posted:maybe the industry should stop catering to shitlords because wider audiences == more money It's funny because GW doesn't actively cater to breast-obsessed nerds the way these Kickstarter projects do and while they as a company have gotten some hard knocks lately it's hard to deny that GW hasn't been remarkably successful with a game that doesn't plaster lovingly-sculpted anime tits all over their products. I'm not trying to say that GW is super-awesome about getting women invested in the tabletop gaming hobby because GW's approach largely seems to be ignoring that women actually exist (unless they're space elfs maybe), but nonetheless I think the idea that your wargame needs to have loads of tits to sell well and that's just the way of the world is kind of specious.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:08
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It's less, I think, that your wargame must have loads of tits so much as that your women in your wargame must have loads of tits or their rear end sticking out or whatever.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:10
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Kai Tave posted:It's funny because GW doesn't actively cater to breast-obsessed nerds the way these Kickstarter projects do and while they as a company have gotten some hard knocks lately it's hard to deny that GW hasn't been remarkably successful with a game that doesn't plaster lovingly-sculpted anime tits all over their products. Anecdotally, I've talked to at least one WMH-playing woman who straight up said that she played that game because the 40K community was groggy, misogynistic and toxic whereas the WMH one was laid back and not creepy. There isn't necessarily a 1-to-1 relationship between titty art and a regressive culture surrounding a game (not that you said in so many words that there was).
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Apr 20, 2014 04:12
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Oh I absolutely believe that. 40K has been wrapped up in a "boy's club" mentality for god knows how long and a lot of the older, entrenched fans are the same stripe of terrible nerd you'll find in every part of this hobby, so I'm completely unsurprised to hear something like that. I'm not trying to say that GW is some bastion of progressive gaming or anything, just that GW makes mad bank while at the same time not really caring to lean on oversexualized female minis. The point is that cheesecake-pose figures aren't some sad truth of tabletop gaming that you just have to live with if you want a successful game, the Kickstarters doing stuff like this are doing it because they know they can part these people from their money by doing that easier than they could through other means available to them.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:17
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Kai Tave posted:The point is that cheesecake-pose figures aren't some sad truth of tabletop gaming that you just have to live with if you want a successful game, the Kickstarters doing stuff like this are doing it because they know they can part these people from their money by doing that easier than they could through other means available to them. It turns out there's a market for that. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 04:24 on Apr 20, 2014 |
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Apr 20, 2014 04:20
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Captain Foo posted:maybe the industry should stop catering to shitlords because wider audiences == more money can you prove that a miniatures game can appeal to a wider audience?
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Apr 20, 2014 04:21
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And you can always find the little signs of how ingrained this stuff is, like the Creature Caster kickstarter's "early Beard" special. It's honestly a maddening kickstarter to watch. Their business plan is "Tits and GW knockoffs", and there's no doubt it's working, but there's so many other things the sculptors could be doing with the kind of talent they put on display. And I'd personally argue that it's more the GW knockoff bit that's a success: note how the Copper level (for the Spider Goddess, not counting early birds) has fifty backers, while Silver (for the other demons) has twice that and rising - and that's while being more expensive than the Copper, which probably sees backing just for being the cheapest reward level. And most of the money comes from the bundles right at the top. Is sex actually selling the product here? I'd say it's arguably not, and at the very least not directly. The comments aren't exactly awash in mentions of her compared to the other models. For this kickstarter, and many others I've seen, the idea of sex selling it is blown out of proportion. stoutfish posted:can you prove that a miniatures game can appeal to a wider audience? I frequent a store which hosts "intro nights" and has made special effort to be open to all customers and getting people in through giveaways, and for the first time ever I've seen girls get into Warhammer. I've also fought and lost against the local Warmahordes ladies a bunch, and the Warmahordes club has actually crept towards equalizing in its gender distribution over time over the past couple of years. The potential wider audience seems to provably exist in that case at least. Can you prove that the audience doesn't exist? Rulebook Heavily fucked around with this message at 04:30 on Apr 20, 2014 |
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Apr 20, 2014 04:27
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stoutfish posted:can you prove that a miniatures game can appeal to a wider audience? People who aren't shitlords like minis games. Therefore, minis games can appeal to people who aren't shitlords.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:29
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I don't have the links handy on this computer, but the research suggests that sex and violence don't sell, in fact. It gets people's attention, but what happens is people remember the sex and violence instead of the product.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:30
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Well, I wouldn't hold your breath; here's the reports from Fantasy Flight Games. (I guess we can try inputting other elfgame companies on this, if we want to be depressed.) Most of the ex-FFG and current FFG guys I talked to at Gencon (who worked on W40K RPGs stuff) seemed mostly positive about their time there... but then, they were ex-FFG guys who were doing their own thing. But that page sure is pretty damning. If anybody's serious about it, you might want to see if you can hit up Croatian Alzheimers, who freelanced for them and knew a lot of the guys there, but he doesn't seem to post too much here anymore, being busy with his writing and whatnot. Don't know if he'd have much to say professionally, but it'd be worth trying. Palladium has had a lot of damning reports - Coffin is just the tip of the iceberg. Coffin, Carella, Hilden and Sanford, even the people who are professional about their time there tend to be pretty critical.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:30
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Comrade Gorbash posted:The saddest part is I'm not even sure that's true. Look at some of the most successful gaming Kickstarters and projects, from Dungeon World to Eclipse Phase to the top video game KickStarters, and they not only aren't presenting oversexualized characters, they're specifically going out of their way to present reasonable, admirable, strong female characters. Sorry, by "easier than they could through other means available to them" I also mean stuff like "making an actually good game."
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Apr 20, 2014 04:33
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So what can you possibly do then, in this accursed titty model world?
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Apr 20, 2014 04:33
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stoutfish posted:can you prove that a miniatures game can appeal to a wider audience? Why would you even ask that question? There is nothing inherently niche about strategic/tactical games using miniature figures save cost. And lovely nerds aren't the only people who have money to spend on little fightmans. E: stoutfish posted:So what can you possibly do then, in this accursed titty model world? Call out lovely sexist games, gamers, and game creators. Make better games. Call out lovely sexists trying to come off as playing devil's advocate in these kinds of conversations. All things we're trying to do here. Tollymain fucked around with this message at 04:38 on Apr 20, 2014 |
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Apr 20, 2014 04:36
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stoutfish posted:So what can you possibly do then, in this accursed titty model world? Basically, make a MLP wargame and you'd get the ultimate nerdy hobby gender equalizer. (sorry!)
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Apr 20, 2014 04:36
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I love this argument because it comes up for everything. Comic books, video games, minis, any sort of nerd poo poo. Why do people think "well being a shitlord makes more money, c'est le guerre" and shrug this poo poo off?
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Apr 20, 2014 04:37
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Assumption that a market doesn't exist because no one currently exploits it is something of a long running fallacy in nerd hobby companies. In my own case, I long ago came to accept that I enjoy my tabletop games in spite of their cheesecake and juvenile art, and generally resort to proxies, conversions or paint jobs to make up for the worst of it. I sincerely wish there were games out there with smartly done rules and fun mechanics that lacked pinups and other problematic minis (I mostly play Infinity and Warmachine, for reference), but no one seems to be in a rush to fulfill that want. Until that game exists, I'll just have to get better with green stuff to fix some of the worst examples.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:39
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Mr. Maltose posted:I love this argument because it comes up for everything. Comic books, video games, minis, any sort of nerd poo poo. Why do people think "well being a shitlord makes more money, c'est le guerre" and shrug this poo poo off? A combination of intellectual laziness, privilege, and stealth defense of being terrible yourself. At least that's why I used to make those lovely arguments before I realized I was being a jackass and corrected myself. It's an ongoing process but things are more fun now, so it's worth it. Dulkor posted:Assumption that a market doesn't exist because no one currently exploits it is something of a long running fallacy in nerd hobby companies. This is the hardest part of this. How do we get publishers to actually provide good products if we're willing to buy their lovely ones at a high enough rate to keep them afloat? I have some hope for RPGs since all the good recent projects basically provide me with more than enough games to not have to spend a dime on crappy ones, but minis... well, the above shows it's harder. Comrade Gorbash fucked around with this message at 04:43 on Apr 20, 2014 |
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Apr 20, 2014 04:39
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I am a terrible person and there is nothing you can do about it. I am the face of the hobby.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:41
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I wasn't really doing tabletop gaming at the time, so I'm asking out of curiosity: When pre-painted minis (Hero-Clicks, DnD Minis etc) were more widely available, what was the demographic split like? Those games seemed to appeal to a younger more casual audience, and I don't remember seeing a bunch of titty model hero-clicks. How popular were they with non-basement dwellers?
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Apr 20, 2014 04:44
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stoutfish posted:I am a terrible person and there is nothing you can do about it. I am the face of the hobby. Then the thing to do is to show people that no, these games aren't catering to shitlords, they're just an unfortunate part of the audience like they are for anything else. Step one to accomplishing this is to stop catering to those shitlords.
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Apr 20, 2014 04:48
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Popular enough that HeroClix are still decently huge and publish minis on popular properties. There were HeroClix for Pacific Rim when that came out and Star Trek too. DnD Minis aren't expanding that I can tell, but board games and Kre-o (knockoff Lego) sets are making it into department stores in Bumfuck, Iceland. And part of the reason it's less visible in the speciality nerd stores is that it grew huge and ditched the toxic elements (or, more generously, didn't need them much anymore).
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Apr 20, 2014 04:51
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Bucnasti posted:I wasn't really doing tabletop gaming at the time, so I'm asking out of curiosity: The FFG Star Wars game is crushing it in terms of sales, from what I know, and it is all prepainted things on a good licence with a neat game. stoutfish posted:I am a terrible person and there is nothing you can do about it. I am the face of the hobby. It is hereby established as TG Canon that stoutfish is a shitlord. Be it known to one and all. You are not the face of this hobby, however, you are a face in the crowd. That said, this thread is not about what a jerk you in particular are. Certainly there is a segment of the community that is gonna be jerks, I imagine there are probably model train dicks too and mean knitters and bastard scrapbookers or whatever. Either discuss things, or go and dwell. You have farted in the room and everyone is smelling it, consider this a fan blowing that away and now you have to act like a grown up person again.
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Apr 20, 2014 05:52
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Speaking as a fairly frequent wargamer and a volunteer for one, I don't disagree that there are some heavy gender issues in wargames, and that most center around the adolescent male power fantasy kind of setting. Warmachine is lighter on the scantily clad ladies (thought I won't say there aren't any examples,) I have found that it's typically the attitude of the players themselves that pose more of a threat to growing up as an industry. I overheard a pair of 40k players talking, and one of them was also a Warmachine player I knew. I was asking how is Sisters were treating him, and he told me they weren't doing so well in this game. His opponent shot some crack about how they hadn't blown the Emperor for their powers, I got mad. Real mad. I get when you're 13, you make these jokes, but this guy had clearly gone past High School, maybe even college. I took him to task, and when the store employee told me he got a complaint, I explained exactly what was said, and why that, despite it not being "my game," it's inappropriate for players to talk like that. That's not the only time I've seen attitudes like this surface. It's pretty intimidating for a woman to spend time in a game store, and poo poo like that doesn't help at all. I'll grant that if the games we play shift values, then the players' may shift as well, but frankly I can affect a player's attitude more readily than I can with a game designer, or even a company. The vast majority of wargamers I've met over the years are at the core OK people. The attitude that this is "time with the boys," and thus can let poo poo fly that you normally wouldn't say is the problem. In fact, the few times I've had an issue, I've explained that it's not OK say that an they need to cease doing it. That has worked, for the most part. There's always exceptions. Just my experiences.
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Apr 20, 2014 06:19
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Rulebook Heavily posted:I got a bunch of anonymous hate and abuse for selling a 64-page full art supplement with a color cover, internal hyperlinking table of contents and index, a share-alike creative commons license with no watermarking in the pdf and an upcoming PoD version for 7.50$. Most wanted it cheaper. A few said I was a terrible person for not simply giving it away to everyone for free and asking for any money at all. You can see it has an award for being a bestseller on its site, and it still hasn't made its cost back in sales. A post made by Fred Hicks even inspired me to speak out about it. (And all credit due to Hicks for taking a stance.) When Mounted Combat was released, my kneejerk reaction was "man...$7.50 is kinda a lot for something so small" but then I bought in and saw how much work had gone into it, it was totally worth the $7.50 and more besides. With the advent of places like DriveThru, where anyone with an account can start selling stuff and anyone with Microsoft Word can make said stuff, I think the problem is half "gamer entitlement" and half "deluge of half baked poo poo". I compare it to Steam Greenlight, where anyone can toss up their Indie game project and try to get it approved to be sold on Steam. Many of the projects are utter crap, thrown together in a couple hours in GameMaker to try to make a quick buck. I think the current TradGames environment is similar in several ways. Things like Kickstarter, DriveThru and Print-on-Demand have made it easier than ever for someone to create and self-publish and sell a game. However, that leads to a whole lot of projects that just don't have huge art, QA, playtesting, and marketing funds behind them that companies like GW, FFG, and Wizards can utilize. Someone sees "64 pages, PDF, $7.50" without it being from a big name publisher or big-name game (although Dungeon World becoming a big name is happening more and more) sets off knee-jerk reactions from some people. I think in a couple more years when more indie and small press projects start getting more attention, the trend will decline, but for now we're stuck in a world where if it isn't from one of the bigger names, people want it for peanuts.
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Apr 20, 2014 06:27
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jivjov posted:When Mounted Combat was released, my kneejerk reaction was "man...$7.50 is kinda a lot for something so small" but then I bought in and saw how much work had gone into it, it was totally worth the $7.50 and more besides. The only difference between this and the RPG market of ten or even five years ago is simply that it's easier for people to self-publish, as you point out, not a matter of quality. "Deluge of half-baked poo poo" can easily describe plenty of games put out by ostensibly "professional" RPG publishers. Catalyst's latest edition of Shadowrun is rife with atrocious editing and rules that I doubt were even read by playtesters let alone actually playtested, White Wolf has a rich history of producing games that turn into complete messes, FFG is infamous for lousy editing, Rifts is Rifts, etc. I don't think quality has anything to do with it in the sense that games produced by publishers with name recognition are no more guaranteed to not be poo poo than games produced by J. Random Dorklord with a pirated copy of InDesign and some ideas for a cool RPG in his head.
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Apr 20, 2014 06:47
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Kai Tave posted:The only difference between this and the RPG market of ten or even five years ago is simply that it's easier for people to self-publish, as you point out, not a matter of quality. "Deluge of half-baked poo poo" can easily describe plenty of games put out by ostensibly "professional" RPG publishers. Catalyst's latest edition of Shadowrun is rife with atrocious editing and rules that I doubt were even read by playtesters let alone actually playtested, White Wolf has a rich history of producing games that turn into complete messes, FFG is infamous for lousy editing, Rifts is Rifts, etc. I didn't mean to come across as making a sweeping generalization on the quality of small/indie press. My prime point is that indie stuff that's poo poo tends to look like poo poo at first glance. A poorly formatted document. A no-art block of 20 pages of text that says nothing. Stuff like that. Professionally published stuff from the bigger companies can still totally be poo poo, but there tends to be a lot more production values that can mask it. You mention FFG's editing. I love the poo poo out of my 500 page full color hard-back tome that is Edge of the Empire. But yeah, there's more than a few typos hanging out between those covers. But at first glance, FFG's stuff is gonna look a hell of a lot "better" than something put together by a couple of people using some simple PDF authoring tools.
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Apr 20, 2014 06:57
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Sure, I'll absolutely agree in that respect. I think perception plays a big role in it, and when you have the budget to fill a 300+ page book with color art and slap it between a set of hardcovers a lot of gamers will probably assume that your game must be higher quality than the self-published indie game with B&W artwork despite many, many lessons to the contrary. I've often suspected that the true key to elfgame success is to simply create a book that looks like gamers expect a full-fledged RPG to look, pad it out with lots of unnecessarily verbose descriptions and some half-assed fiction, and if you can pull that off you can essentially ignore anything that has to do with game design.
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Apr 20, 2014 07:13
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Popular enough that HeroClix are still decently huge and publish minis on popular properties. There were HeroClix for Pacific Rim when that came out and Star Trek too. DnD Minis aren't expanding that I can tell, but board games and Kre-o (knockoff Lego) sets are making it into department stores in Bumfuck, Iceland. Winson_Paine posted:The FFG Star Wars game is crushing it in terms of sales, from what I know, and it is all prepainted things on a good licence with a neat game. So if the prepainted minis can do this I don't see why painted minis wargames can't as well. The argument people make that the potential market is only manbabies sounds invalid to me.
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Apr 20, 2014 07:31
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I don't think it's unfair to point out that prepainted miniatures games have a significantly lower barrier to entry than tabletop wargames where you have to clean, assemble, and paint your own units from scratch, though. To make a potentially clumsy analogy, on the one hand you have tabletop roleplaying games which frequently come in large multi-hundred page volumes of not very clearly explained rules, and on the other hand you have Magic: the Gathering where you can buy a simple starter set or two and much more easily learn how to play. Consequently the roleplaying hobby isn't exactly experiencing a lot of growth, while M:tG rakes in hundreds of millions of dollars. It's a clumsy analogy because RPGs and Magic aren't the same thing, and I'm sure Magic's success isn't entirely down to ease of entry, but I'd be surprised if a low barrier to entry didn't have a lot to do with it. And I imagine it's the same for prepainted minis games as well...all you have to do is buy some sets, go through the rules, and you're off playing. A lot of these Kickstarter minis games are basically being pitched to a narrower subset of the entire "people interested in playing a tabletop minis game" circle. And I'm willing to bet that narrower band correlates much more highly with a willingness to shell out money for anime titty figures.
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Apr 20, 2014 07:53
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Mr. Maltose posted:I love this argument because it comes up for everything. Comic books, video games, minis, any sort of nerd poo poo. Why do people think "well being a shitlord makes more money, c'est le guerre" and shrug this poo poo off? I think some of it is because people think that they can't affect it. For every person who refuses to buy in on Early Access titles on Steam, cancels their pull when a comic goes to uncomfortable places, or calls a crisis hotline after trying to read an Exalted sourcebook, there are ten willing to put up with it or threaten them with physical violence for not keeping the faith. It's easier to ignore it than to try and do anything about it, on either end of the spectrum: a single player doesn't have much of a voice, unless they're the sort to hurl abuse at a developer for not making stuff for free; (pre)adolescent boys and older shitlords are known quantities with safely predictable appetites, and margins are fine enough that risking that is a non-starter.
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Apr 20, 2014 07:58
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There are also those that use their defense of booby minis (or loli-hitler card games, in an experience I had last week) as a point of pride, that since there are people willing to speak out against it, that's the reason they should be for it! Because nobody should tell them what to do. And not like, a teenager. An actual adult.
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Apr 20, 2014 08:24
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This is why y'all should give up your tiny fantasy pewter pinup girls and pick up the gentleman's hobby, historical miniatures! Hardly a woman in sight!  Realtalk though, historicals are pretty cool.  (From Empress Miniatures' Spanish Civil War range.)
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Apr 20, 2014 08:36
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stoutfish posted:So what can you possibly do then, in this accursed titty model world? Stop sitting around and going "oh, well, what can you do?" and instead start calling out lovely people. If someone you know personally likes dumb titty models, let them know it's not okay. If a company you buy from is making dumb titty models, make noise on twitter and forums about how it's not okay. If you see people attempting to defend excluding women from tabletop wargaming for any reason, call them out as the lovely human beings they are. Stop letting this poo poo stand.
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Apr 20, 2014 11:02
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Here's a question. I've been out of the industry a few years, I'm thinking of putting out a wargame based on 16th century naval warfare. Not too groggy, play in an evening with some friends, not too much maths, D6 based. No attached mini line, but there are manufacturers who cover the period. The question is on the economics of it. I'll be using pictures of miniatures, photographs and paintings from the era, so no artwork costs, but putting together a 120-200 page book (I want to cover a lot of stuff from the period in detail) instead of just a 20 page rules document would be a major undertaking. I used to do freelance, and I've had some dealings with Mongoose before, but I'm a bit leery pitching a naval game for a specific period to Matt given what has happened with Noble Armada. I initially thought of using a variant of A Call to Arms, but the changes I'd be making to it mean I may as well create a new rules engine. What's the industry like at the moment? Is it worth working with a publishing company, and does anyone have any recommendations for a historical product, or should I go the Drive Thru rpg self publishing route? Once I've actually written the entire product, done the layout, sorted the art etc, so all that needs to happen is that it goes to the printers, is it worth kickstarting? I don't want to be one of those people who do a kickstarter and have no product ready or notion of what they're doing. DriveThru rpg certainly seems the easier route. What are peoples experience of it?
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Apr 20, 2014 17:24
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Rulebook Heavily posted:Well, I wouldn't hold your breath; here's the reports from Fantasy Flight Games. (I guess we can try inputting other elfgame companies on this, if we want to be depressed.)
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Apr 20, 2014 17:28
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