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We need a time machine for the sole purpose of going back and properly scouting old time ball players
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May 6, 2014 19:00
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Literally every athletic endeavor has gotten better over time. Sprinters sprint faster, distance runners run faster and farther. High jumpers jump higher, swimmers swim faster and farther. It should be glaringly obvious that baseball players would pitch and hit better. In everything that people do, we use accumulated knowledge to shortcut development time and push beyond the previous generation.
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May 6, 2014 19:03
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HAL9100 posted:Really? Because the best pitcher of that era, Walter Johnson, was known for his blazing sidearmed fastball that was clocked at 91.36 MPH in a lab. That would make him the ace for today's Minnesota Twins.
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May 6, 2014 19:03
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If BRef's height/weight numbers are even close, many of the better pitchers from Johnson's era wouldn't be considered future starting pitchers by modern scouts due to being too short or too skinny.
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May 6, 2014 19:04
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Pretty sure the Babe could still eat more hot dogs than any living ballplayer and then drink them under the table and mash a tater off a 145 pound pitcher/insurance salesman.
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May 6, 2014 19:06
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HAL9100 posted:Really? Because the best pitcher of that era, Walter Johnson, was known for his blazing sidearmed fastball that was clocked at 91.36 MPH in a lab. I mean, even ignoring the dispute over how fast Big Train actually threw, that's still good velocity for a sidearmer to this day.
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May 6, 2014 19:08
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R.D. Mangles posted:Pretty sure the Babe could still eat more hot dogs than any living ballplayer and then drink them under the table and mash a tater off a 145 pound pitcher/insurance salesman. The fact that he's not around to participate in the annual hot dog eating competition is one of the greatest tragedies of all time.
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May 6, 2014 19:09
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Jummy posted:The fact that he's not around to participate in the annual hot dog eating competition is one of the greatest tragedies of all time. Dunking his buns in beer with one hand and hitting home runs with the dogs in the other.
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May 6, 2014 19:10
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Groucho Marxist posted:I mean, even ignoring the dispute over how fast Big Train actually threw, that's still good velocity for a sidearmer to this day. Totally not disputing the greatness of Walter Johnson. In fact, I would bet he'd be the exception to the rule and be a productive major league pitcher if plucked directly from the time machine. I just meant to posit that (obviously disputable but still representative) fact in reference to being told I'm changing history for suggesting that the bulk of the pitchers in the 20s were throwing 80 something. toadee posted:Literally every athletic endeavor has gotten better over time. Sprinters sprint faster, distance runners run faster and farther. High jumpers jump higher, swimmers swim faster and farther. It should be glaringly obvious that baseball players would pitch and hit better. In everything that people do, we use accumulated knowledge to shortcut development time and push beyond the previous generation. This is my favorite example of this.
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May 6, 2014 19:11
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R.D. Mangles posted:Pretty sure the Babe could still eat more hot dogs than any living ballplayer and then drink them under the table and mash a tater off a 145 pound pitcher/insurance salesman. I would compare him to Michael Jordan except Jordan had more time to sleep before games when he stayed out all night.
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May 6, 2014 19:12
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I imagine Ruth's HR totals would be a lot less if he had to face integrated pitching.
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May 6, 2014 19:12
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seiferguy posted:I imagine Ruth's HR totals would be a lot less if he had to face integrated pitching. Everyone else would be facing them, too, so I'm guessing his other stats should have been just as god-like given the context even if his counting stats weren't as astronomical. In 100 years, I wonder if people will be arguing that John Doe would have easily broken Bonds' HR record if half he ballparks weren't at sea level now thanks to global warming.. tadashi fucked around with this message at 19:16 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 19:13
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JJ Putz is going on the DL with "forearm tightness" Fire up that Dr Andrews photo again.
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May 6, 2014 19:14
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If there was only like 8 teams or whatever ruth faced when bonds went dinger crazy he wouldnt have hit that many either. I dont think there has been a n/v thread in years where this argument doesnt occur and it gets dumber every time.
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May 6, 2014 19:17
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Where the arms in the negro leagues that much better that Ruth's numbers would drop that much? Or is the argument just that there is a greater pool of potentially really good arms? I'm assuming someones done research on who the best negro league pitchers of that era where, and how they would rank compared to their MLB contemporary's.
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May 6, 2014 19:19
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Groucho Marxist posted:I mean, even ignoring the dispute over how fast Big Train actually threw, that's still good velocity for a sidearmer to this day. What I have been able to glean is that pitchers of old were just as capable of throwing mid-90s and above as today. They didn't do it as often because they had to pace themselves, as they were expected to pitch the entire game. Sometimes even both games of a double-header. The elevation of the role of the relief pitcher has meant that starting pitchers can go harder on every pitch, knowing they only have to last six or seven innings. So batters more than 50 years ago or so had to face a lot more junk, with the occasional blazer.
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May 6, 2014 19:21
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Here's the thing about Ruth -- even if we follow some argument wherein in our hypothetical world, the Babe was born in our time and grew up with our training methods etc, while retaining a natural talent and affinity for the game above and beyond others. He still couldn't duplicate those feats because we were in what Stephen J Gould would have called 'a punctuated equilibrium'. The system, at the time, was geared toward small ball, the inside game, bunts, hit and runs, etc. It was a system that had extracted all it could at the time in terms of efficiency gains, and thus an evolutionary jump needed to be made to upset the system and spur new development. Baseball was a really young system so the change was incredibly massive. As I said before, Babe Ruth literally hit more home runs than any other team one season. Today, this is not possible because Baseball is a comparatively mature system. These days, things like SABR analysis creating the 90's A's and more recently defensive analyzation creating big strides in defensive positioning are the equivalents, and they have far less impact. The Babe would probably always be great, in that he was a person with an affinity for playing baseball, who had natural abilities well suited for baseball, and I have no doubt he would be great no matter what era he grew up in, but his impact on the era was a direct result of how young of a system it was, not because he was a herculean superman.
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May 6, 2014 19:27
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This is an insane argument. Who on earth cares whether or not Babe Ruth would have hit dingers off of Steve Trachsel? Could the Wright Brothers fly an F-15? How would Otto von Bismarck handle the invasion of Crimea? Would Harold Lloyd be able to star as the villain in a Steven Seagal movie? The context of an era is what makes players great. Sure, Babe Ruth hit home runs in a smaller segregated league with inferior, scrawny, Jazz age athletes. But he also did so during Prohibition, during a time when his exploits were carried across the nation by nasal-voiced radio people and in hilarious sped-up newsreel footage where it looks like he's in a Benny Hill film while he traveled around the nation on trains eating hotdogs, drinking everything, and consorting with an apparently endless array of homely prostitutes. He belongs in his era, not trying to hit dingers off of giants from all corners of the globe while constantly being harassed in dumb sports blogs comparing him to something called a "lannister."
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May 6, 2014 19:30
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People always seem to think Babe was always fat, because most pictures of him are from the end of his career or after.
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May 6, 2014 19:32
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Popete posted:Where the arms in the negro leagues that much better that Ruth's numbers would drop that much? Or is the argument just that there is a greater pool of potentially really good arms? It's the latter, but with more certainty given that top Negro League talent made a smooth transition performance wise to the majors 15 years later. Satchel Paige was possibly the best pitcher in the world for a time, and Slim Jones probably would have been an ace level major league pitcher.
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May 6, 2014 19:33
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Matt Cain on DL. N: Got hurt cutting sandwich into triangles
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May 6, 2014 19:35
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I'm sure it broke no new ground, but there's a ton of good Babe Ruth stuff in Bill Bryson's really fun book on the summer of 1927 if anyone is looking for a good summer read.
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May 6, 2014 19:36
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Yeah given how many Negro League players stepped in and were immediate stars (and how many clearly past their prime guys were still quality major leaugers once the color barrier fell, including a likely early to mid-40s Satchel Paige), it's probably pretty safe to say that it would have made some difference. Latin American guys weren't really playing back then either.
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May 6, 2014 19:37
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Wait Satchel Paige's last appearance was in 1965 at the age of 58? He gave up 1 hit in 3 innings. How did that come about? That's awesome. Considering his whole MLB career was after the age of 40 and he still only has a 3.29 ERA his younger years must have been insane.quote:Before the game, Paige sat in the bullpen in a rocking chair while a nurse rubbed liniment into his pitching arm for the entire crowd to see. Any doubts about Paige’s ability were put to rest when he set down each of the Red Sox batters he faced except for Carl Yastremski, who hit a double. Hahaha incredible. Popete fucked around with this message at 19:47 on May 6, 2014 |
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May 6, 2014 19:40
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Popete posted:Wait Satchel Paige's last appearance was in 1965 at the age of 58? He gave up 1 hit in 3 innings. How did that come about? That's awesome. Considering his whole MLB career was after the age of 40 and he still only has a 3.29 ERA his younger years must have been insane. He did it throwing nothing but fastballs too. There are also a lot of people who argue that he wasn't the best pitcher in the Negro Leagues, but it's probably telling that anytime someone tries to argue that someone else was the best, Paige is the guy they're comparing him to.
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May 6, 2014 19:43
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MourningView posted:He did it throwing nothing but fastballs too. That was when he was younger, but he hurt his arm in 1938. After that, he learned how to throw lots of different breaking balls and use deceptive deliveries, including the "hesitation pitch" which was later made illegal.
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May 6, 2014 19:49
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Satchel made the Indians' roster by placing a small folded handkerchief on home plate and throwing most of his pitches over it.
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May 6, 2014 19:53
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R.D. Mangles posted:Pretty sure the Babe could still eat more hot dogs than any living ballplayer and then drink them under the table and mash a tater off a 145 pound pitcher/insurance salesman. Uh Todd Coffey, who is still trying to make a comeback, once ate like 12 Pat's cheesesteaks or something after a game in Philadelphia
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May 6, 2014 19:57
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FairGame posted:Uh Todd Coffey, who is still trying to make a comeback, once ate like 12 Pat's cheesesteaks or something after a game in Philadelphia When I wake up every morning I can rest reasonably assured that I won't remember Todd Coffey exists for remainder of that day. You've shattered my world, sir.
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May 6, 2014 19:59
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Sweeney Tom posted:Matt Cain on DL. Was expecting that to be a joke, somehow.
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May 6, 2014 20:00
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Some announcer was making fun of Cain saying the Giants where going to enforce a PB&J only rule from now on.
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May 6, 2014 20:02
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Sweeney Tom posted:Matt Cain on DL. This is my new favorite DL injury reason.
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May 6, 2014 20:02
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Sweeney Tom posted:Matt Cain on DL. Wait, he actually did it tyring to catch the knife after he dropped it? That is worse than accidentally cutting himself while using it for its intended purposes.
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May 6, 2014 20:20
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When are these minor league teams going to stop silly promotions http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/sea/ticketing/special_event.jsp?group=sriracha 
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May 6, 2014 20:28
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Popete posted:Some announcer was making fun of Cain saying the Giants where going to enforce a PB&J only rule from now on. Does that announcer assume that you can cut a PB&J with a fork or something?
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May 6, 2014 20:38
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Sweeney Tom posted:Matt Cain on DL. Jeremy Affeldt loops his arm around Cain's shoulders, grins madly, and whispers "You all laughed at me for this sort of thing, didn't you?"
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May 6, 2014 20:38
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IcePhoenix posted:Does that announcer assume that you can cut a PB&J with a fork or something? Butter knife, ain't gonna dirty up 2 knives for 1 sandwich.
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May 6, 2014 20:41
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Harlock posted:When are these minor league teams going to stop silly promotions Why do you hate fun
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May 6, 2014 20:47
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Popete posted:Butter knife, ain't gonna dirty up 2 knives for 1 sandwich. Yeah but then you tear the bread, you need a clean cut for a good sandwich.
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May 6, 2014 20:47
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FairGame posted:Uh Todd Coffey, who is still trying to make a comeback, once ate like 12 Pat's cheesesteaks or something after a game in Philadelphia That makes me feel physically queasy to think about. The grease alone would fill several cups.
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May 6, 2014 20:49
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