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Manning did do quite a lot of good, the diplomatic cables he leaked are an important source for a lot of academic work. It can also be argued that the video leaks were a major contributing factor in the Iraqi government's decision not to renew the Status of Forces Agreement, which lead to the complete withdraw of US troops from Iraq.
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# ? Apr 21, 2014 21:56 |
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 05:22 |
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Main Paineframe posted:Expecting it to be effective enough to potentially ruin your life over sure is. Look at Manning; in the end, nothing came of that leak except, what, how many years in prison? Manning doesn't even get the privilege of being remembered as a martyr, since Snowden completely overshadowed what little recognition remained after his conviction. These things take time. Not to endorse Manning's indiscriminate leak, but how was the Media burglary viewed in the years just after that occurred? Particularly in government? And now?
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# ? Apr 21, 2014 23:11 |
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rockopete posted:These things take time. Not to endorse Manning's indiscriminate leak, but how was the Media burglary viewed in the years just after that occurred? Particularly in government? And now? I endorse Manning's indiscriminate leaks.
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# ? Apr 22, 2014 05:19 |
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Yeah, I think that this might be a case of a... cultural misunderstanding, so to speak, maybe that's the best way to call it. What works in America doesn't work in Russia, and vice versa, because the political institutions are so different. A good move in the US (Wyden/Clapper) is just playing into the hands of the enemy in Russia. Everyone's bound to have some fuckups, though, especially when you're going against an opponent twice your age, better advised and more versed in his own culture, though. Snowden should have not done what he did, but unless he doesn't learn from this particular lesson, that should not be put against him. Now, that brings one to an interesting question, what a good move in Russia would be. From what I remember of my childhood, probably dark humour/satire. Maybe in a sitcom form - one wouldn't really even have to change the storyline of "an American agent escapes to Russia and has to deal with the reality of that country's 'national security state'". Hell, I'd watch the hell out of this poo poo. Whatever else oppressive regimes are, they make for great cynical humour.
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# ? Apr 22, 2014 07:51 |
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Miltank posted:I endorse Manning's indiscriminate leaks. Cool, I wasn't necessarily condemning them either, just making the point that vindication can take a while.
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# ? Apr 22, 2014 13:47 |
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meristem posted:Yeah, I think that this might be a case of a... cultural misunderstanding, so to speak, maybe that's the best way to call it. What works in America doesn't work in Russia, and vice versa, because the political institutions are so different. A good move in the US (Wyden/Clapper) is just playing into the hands of the enemy in Russia. The only way for Snowden to move the public opinion needle against Putin in Russia is for him to make Putin deny spying on UFOs.
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# ? Apr 22, 2014 15:05 |
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amanasleep posted:The only way for Snowden to move the public opinion needle against Putin in Russia is for him to make Putin deny spying on UFOs. "Have you flummoxed the machinations of the New World Order, or has Lukashenko surpassed you in this?"
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# ? Apr 22, 2014 16:35 |
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"Mr. Putin, when will you tell the truth about your Jewish ancestry?"
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# ? Apr 23, 2014 06:22 |
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Might be interest in this thread is dead, but Goodlatte is moving forward on Sensenbrenner's bill, curious to see if this goes anywhere: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/05/house-committee-chairman-agrees-nsa-reform-bill
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# ? May 5, 2014 23:10 |
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I'm still interested, it's just there's not much I've seen that's obviously going on to discuss at the moment. http://www.cnet.com/news/fbi-we-need-wiretap-ready-web-sites-now/ That's something new that's a problem.
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# ? May 6, 2014 20:59 |
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Ding ding ding, here is the loving problem with 'wiretap ready websites' aside from the obvious. If some bullshit law goes into effect making backdoor access standardized and required, it is only a matter of time before the backdoor security is busted and hackers have an all you can eat buffet of private information. You think heartbleed was bad? It would be nothing compared to unfettered access to organized, indexed, standardized and formatted information about users of any variety of internet service. The truth is though, the law will pass.
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# ? May 6, 2014 22:07 |
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Depends on the type of backdoor, right?
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# ? May 6, 2014 23:50 |
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Depending on the actual text of the proposed law, I think the companies may go along anyway, as incumbents can gain by making a higher barrier to entry for Internet software.
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# ? May 6, 2014 23:57 |
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Maybe everyone will switch to open source products. I'd love to see them try to just flat out make encrypted communication illegal.
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# ? May 7, 2014 01:20 |
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Konstantin posted:Manning did do quite a lot of good, the diplomatic cables he leaked are an important source for a lot of academic work. It can also be argued that the video leaks were a major contributing factor in the Iraqi government's decision not to renew the Status of Forces Agreement, which lead to the complete withdraw of US troops from Iraq. Greenwald is doing a doc release on Tuesday (13 May) to coincide with his book coming out (the docs will be those he references in the book that have not yet been released) so eyes open. He has obliquely referenced NSA intercepts being used for political purposes before, so I'm looking for that in the release. If either party has been using the NSA to spy on the others campaigns that is a huge deal.
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# ? May 9, 2014 00:48 |
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Fried Chicken posted:that the SoFA would not include provisions for basing troops was decided in 2007 negotiations. Hence why Obama was so certain on promising it. Manning had nothing to do with that. Is it? I mean seriously here, they can murder US citizens, kidnap random innocent people and torture them, screw up fundamental security of the internet, have Star Chamber courts... and spying on political opponents would be some kind of deal at all?
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# ? May 9, 2014 05:26 |
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I think most Americans don't give a poo poo about rendition or torture of ethnic Americans abroad. But if news came out that the Republicans or Democrats used NSA to spy on each other, it'd definitely affect the next round of elections.
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# ? May 9, 2014 05:43 |
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shrike82 posted:I think most Americans don't give a poo poo about rendition or torture of ethnic Americans abroad. I disagree, I think most Americans suspect that we have tortured our own citizens, and do not like the idea. Especially if it were to occur on U.S. soil, although that should really make a difference. I do agree that another watergate scandal would definitely blow up.
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# ? May 9, 2014 06:22 |
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I continue to not see why it's different if a Democrat reads Republican emails than if either kidnaps and tortures seemingly random people under false pretenses. Then again PT Barnum's been proven right again and again about never going wrong underestimating Americans.
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# ? May 9, 2014 06:49 |
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If one political party had been spied upon they would kick up the fuss. It's not that its worse than torturing people it's that the NSA would have annoyed the wrong people.
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# ? May 9, 2014 09:27 |
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chairface posted:Is it? I mean seriously here, they can murder US citizens, kidnap random innocent people and torture them, screw up fundamental security of the internet, have Star Chamber courts... and spying on political opponents would be some kind of deal at all? Have you ever heard of Watergate?
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# ? May 9, 2014 12:22 |
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chairface posted:Is it? I mean seriously here, they can murder US citizens, kidnap random innocent people and torture them, screw up fundamental security of the internet, have Star Chamber courts... and spying on political opponents would be some kind of deal at all? All of the above could be put under the broad justification of [handwave]FIGHTING TERRORISM[/handwave], which while stupid has been pretty drat effective at defusing the objections of large swathes of the public. Using spying for political gain is something different, and for the older generation taps into the cultural memory of Watergate. Also don't underestimate the segment of the population that would sit up and take notice only when the victims are rich old white men. Fangz fucked around with this message at 14:18 on May 9, 2014 |
# ? May 9, 2014 14:14 |
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Besides attracting direct ire from a major party and having no security figleaf, it would also have the appearance of undermining the political process itself.
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# ? May 9, 2014 14:21 |
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chairface posted:Is it? I mean seriously here, they can murder US citizens, kidnap random innocent people and torture them, screw up fundamental security of the internet, have Star Chamber courts... and spying on political opponents would be some kind of deal at all? Put it this way: why is murdering US citizens differentiated by you from murdering anyone in general? Because you feel like the former is part of your "in group", and the latter is not. The same logic applies - US citizens who go abroad and work with terrorists are the out group, whereas people in civil society who don't get their hands dirty are the in group.
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# ? May 9, 2014 15:03 |
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On a side note I loved John Oliver's hardball interview with Keith Alexander: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8lJ85pfb_E
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# ? May 11, 2014 04:28 |
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etalian posted:On a side note I loved John Oliver's hardball interview with Keith Alexander: Is his show any good? Been meaning to watch it.
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# ? May 11, 2014 17:34 |
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MacheteZombie posted:Is his show any good? Been meaning to watch it. I really like it, for what it's worth. Oliver breaking down the death penalty is pretty great.
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# ? May 11, 2014 18:48 |
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Michael Hayden (former NSA director), in a recent interview: "We kill people based on metadata". Don't worry everyone, it's just metadata, nbd e: Also the ODNI is pushing a new policy for anyone who either has or had clearance. Basically, they can't discuss anything based on leaks. NYT posted:Timothy H. Edgar, a visiting professor at Brown University who worked at the intelligence office and the White House from 2006 to 2013, said it was appropriate to block former officials from disclosing classified information and confirming leaks. We'll just pretend this all doesn't exist and it'll go away. Broken Machine fucked around with this message at 19:10 on May 11, 2014 |
# ? May 11, 2014 19:06 |
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Broken Machine posted:Michael Hayden (former NSA director), in a recent interview: "We kill people based on metadata". Don't worry everyone, it's just metadata, nbd quote:e: Also the ODNI is pushing a new policy for anyone who either has or had clearance. Basically, they can't discuss anything based on leaks. This has also been policy for years. It came up during the wikileaks releases, that the people whose information was leaked were not allow to discuss with their coworkers what was leaked. EDIT: If you want a good source for the intersection of big data, predictive analytics, military actions, and intelligence work, check out http://predictiveheuristics.com/ It is by Duke Lab and has some good commentary on stuff Fried Chicken fucked around with this message at 03:09 on May 12, 2014 |
# ? May 12, 2014 03:05 |
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Fried Chicken posted:We've known the CIA used pattern matching predictive algorithms for choosing drone targets for years though - at least since 2010 because I had to do a debate on it before the midterms. One of the first connections people made was the metadata must be the inputs for Recorded Future and the CIA's ICEWS project (Integrated Conflict Early Warning System). It was even a plot point of a summer blockbuster that was in production well before Snowden's leaks. Obviously you may have known this before, but it's the first time I've seen an official come right out and plainly state it like that, and it runs counter to their previous minimization efforts. quote:This has also been policy for years. It came up during the wikileaks releases, that the people whose information was leaked were not allow to discuss with their coworkers what was leaked. No, it is different, which is why it is a new policy being established. They were previously barred from visiting wikileaks, or other leaks of classified info into the public space. However they were not restrained from discussing leaks that had appeared in traditional media. By the letter of the new policy, they would be barred from discussing the Pentagon Papers, or anything else that is based on the leak of classified material. They can't even comment on it. Previously, they could discuss it so long as they didn't confirm or deny the truth of it.
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# ? May 12, 2014 03:28 |
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MacheteZombie posted:Is his show any good? Been meaning to watch it. The only government agency that really listens
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# ? May 13, 2014 03:43 |
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http://www.glenngreenwald.net/#BookDocuments New docs up
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# ? May 13, 2014 18:34 |
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Scanning through this real quick:
My thoughts:
Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 23:05 on May 13, 2014 |
# ? May 13, 2014 22:09 |
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A quick read shows a number of fun bits, not sure if they've been released before though.
And that's just the short list.
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# ? May 13, 2014 22:57 |
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Front page of every major news network: Haven't your heard about this crazy racist clippers guy!?! We live in a strange time.
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# ? May 13, 2014 22:59 |
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I wonder if there's a connection to how "leaked recordings" have been popping up all over lately. There have been high profile leaks against Erdogan, people close to Maduro, and so on. Nothing specific to link the NSA to that, but they clearly have the capability and it fits their MO of attempting to discredit and turn public opinion against targets. The interesting thing about Assange is that specifically they twisted arms to get other countries to apply legal pressure against him. It was already pretty clear that the US was pressuring other countries in various other fashions. That was pretty much a win-win-win strategy for them, either he comes back for a big circus trial and he's discredited or he stays cooped up in an embassy forever to dodge them or if he gets off they scoop him right up and it's on to the espionage trial. Everything's coming up Milhous! Paul MaudDib fucked around with this message at 23:17 on May 13, 2014 |
# ? May 13, 2014 23:04 |
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If the NSA is selectively leaking poo poo to discredit Erdogan and Maduro, then good for the NSA.
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# ? May 14, 2014 01:12 |
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Frontline is running a doc on the security state and so on, in two parts. It starts right now.
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# ? May 14, 2014 02:01 |
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Paul MaudDib posted:Scanning through this real quick: quote:
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New, but not hugely surprising, as intelligence and economic interests have been hand in hand since post WW2 (MI5 famously put mass effort in stealing trade secrets to rebuild British industries faster). I mean really, these days conflict over whose paradigm of global trade and wealth distribution patterns is dominant has replaced conflict over who has the land (and really since people were tied to the land before that all economic activity was tied to the land, so it was still about economic dynamics) I guess my surprise is that they were so blunt about it. Listen in, and then use that to inform your usual approach for maintaining hegemony? Why not insert as well - add some footnotes to a WTO briefing packet, modify the entries in their economic data to skew what outcomes forecasting results in, change numbers in negotiating portfolios, etc. Get the other country to be negotiating for what we want rather than trying to make a better counter argument against them basically. quote:
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quote:My thoughts: quote:
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cr0y posted:Front page of every major news network: Haven't your heard about this crazy racist clippers guy!?! This mass data collection program was first known about by the NYT in 2004, and they didn't disclose it on the White House's request because it was an election year. They wanted to be "neutral" in the race. They held off until 2005 and disclosed then to go hand in hand with
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# ? May 14, 2014 02:07 |
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 05:22 |
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Fried Chicken posted:
They harassed the poo poo out of Laura Poitras, and heavily target other journalists for obvious reasons (remember this?). It got so bad for her she moved to europe because she was so tired of being harassed. Oh and they blackballed Thomas Drake too, that's a good one. e: on another note, there was a fairly lively debate between Greenwald and a Bill Keller at the Times here. Broken Machine fucked around with this message at 02:30 on May 14, 2014 |
# ? May 14, 2014 02:26 |