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Folderol posted:Didn't force ghost Obi Wan instruct Luke to go to Dagobah? Also, didn't he chat with Yoda (i.e., with Luke not there to reminisce) after Luke took off to rescue Han? Also, Yoda physically reacts to his "internal conflict" by looking up, as if he heard something. Luke then tries to sway Yoda's opinion by talking to the internal conflict instead of directly addressing Yoda, because Luke somehow "hears" Yoda's internal conflict and knows that it is talking in Obi-Wan's voice in Yoda's head. Forgot to mention that Luke, like Yoda, physically responds to his "memory" of Obi-Wan in ANH, going so far as to tap his helmet as if his memory might be an equipment malfunction. Mr. Funny Pants fucked around with this message at 19:45 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 19:26
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:Also, Yoda physically reacts to his "internal conflict" by looking up, as if he heard something. Luke then tries to sway Yoda's opinion by talking to the internal conflict instead of directly addressing Yoda, because Luke somehow "hears" Yoda's internal conflict and knows that it is talking in Obi-Wan's voice in Yoda's head. Exactly, the memory is so real to both characters that it's as though Ben is actually there. That's the power of metaphor. Ben is, however, quite dead. That's why Ben does not appear when Luke calls out to him at the end of the film. It's not because Ben is ignoring him. It's because Ben is dead. In Terminator Salvation, John Connor replays his mother's cassette tapes over and over for guidance. When the tapes end, he is forced to make decisions on his own. That's what happens in Empire Strike Back. The same thing happens in Man Of Steel, where Jor-El (re)appears before Clark as a computer simulation programmed with his memories.
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May 15, 2014 19:59
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Exactly, the memory is so real to both characters that it's as though Ben is actually there. Then please explain this scene, where Force-Qui-gon physically affects the world. VVVVVVV another good point. IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 20:15 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 20:09
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And then Luke remembers Anakin as a person he's never seen before. End of movie. Credits.
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May 15, 2014 20:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Ben is, however, quite dead. That's why Ben does not appear when Luke calls out to him at the end of the film. It's not because Ben is ignoring him. It's because Ben is dead. Ben, or excuse me, Luke's memory of Ben, did say that if Luke chose to fight Vader, he could no longer help Luke. So now Luke's own memory is refusing to help him. Got it.
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May 15, 2014 20:26
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:Ben, or excuse me, Luke's memory of Ben, did say that if Luke chose to fight Vader, he could no longer help Luke. So now Luke's own memory is refusing to help him. Got it. Exactly, the memory is so real to both characters that it's as though Ben is actually there. That's the power of metaphor. Ben is, however, quite dead. That's why Ben does not appear when Luke calls out to him at the end of the film. It's not because Ben is ignoring him. It's because Ben is dead. In Terminator Salvation, John Connor replays his mother's cassette tapes over and over for guidance. When the tapes end, he is forced to make decisions on his own. That's what happens in Empire Strike Back. The same thing happens in Man Of Steel, where Jor-El (re)appears before Clark as a computer simulation programmed with his memories. We are not really disagreeing about what is going on. You are just using new-age language to explain what is psychosocial phenomena. All this transcendence occurs in the context of a film series about artificial intelligence and prosthetic enhancement. Star Wars shares space with Videodrome and The Shining, arguing that ghosts 'exist' insofar as people believe in them. The Overlook hotel serves as a physical record of the atrocities that went on there, and the capitalist ideology expressed by this recording 'possesses' Jack. The dead live on as memories and recordings that influence the present. Luke has a prosthetic arm, videotape is prosthetic existence. The danger is that people try to isolate the 'force power' from its context in the films, the relationship to specific characters and events, and consequently from any real-world frame of reference. In Empire Strikes Back, the 'force ghost' appears as Luke is freezing to death, and fades away the instant Han shows up. We learn later that the same ghost has been communicating with Yoda. Luke is, of course, not the only person who remembers Obiwan; Yoda remembers him as well. What you see in the scene on Hoth is Yoda calling Luke to him, through an intermediary. The image of the ghost that appears as a 'hallucination' at death is Yoda's promise of transcendence from the physical world at the expense of friendships and other attachments. This is why Han dispels the ghost with his arrival. The ghosts, notably, resemble the holograms that appear constantly throughout the series. Lucas loves McLuhan, and the entirety of A New Hope is about the triumph of oral/tribal culture over literary culture. When Obiwan dies, he becomes a voice - and, ultimately, a video image. Obiwan continues to exist in the same sense that Brian O'Blivion lives on as a collection of Betamax tapes. Obi-Wan isn't spontaneously generating ectoplasmic information from the aether. That's silly; he's dead. The conclusion that "it's just how the force works" is stupid because the entire conceit of 'the force' was invented by artists to express real-world concepts. Hoth is just the inverse of Tatooine, which Luke sought to escape: "If there's a bright center to the universe, you're on the planet that it's farthest from." Luke is searching for the bright center of the universe, and Yoda claims to provide it with his transhumanism schtick. The bright center is not a place but a state of mind. This is cannot be dismissed as some vague goodness, because the film is loaded with details that explain the force (e.g. R2 hacking the security system is described as 'talking to the city'). Star Wars is science fiction. If you watch the whole series, that's like 9 films all spent explaining what the force is, contrasting different interpretations and so-on. Figure it out.
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May 15, 2014 20:33
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If Luke becomes a Force Ghost, would he have two hands? Would he just have a stump on one arm? Or would his ghost have a robot hand, in which case, could a robot become a Force Ghost?
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May 15, 2014 20:46
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Am I crazy for thinking, in a world with telekinesis, mind control, and dudes who shoot lightning, that ghosts are just ghosts and not some complex multi-level metaphor for coping mechanisms? I dunno, I supposed I just like applying Occam's Razor.
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May 15, 2014 20:47
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Luke's hand is a machine, not a droid. Unlike the real world, there is a difference between those two things in Star Wars, and also there is sound in space and planets are close together. Luke's ghost would look like it has an intact hand. His mechanical hand would not be represented unless it's like clothes. A droid might theoretically get a ghost someday, but the only droid I can think of that is sufficiently attuned to the Force is R2-D2, and the films can't ever show Artoo's death because he is the narrator.
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May 15, 2014 20:48
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Crappy Jack posted:If Luke becomes a Force Ghost, would he have two hands? Would he just have a stump on one arm? Or would his ghost have a robot hand, in which case, could a robot become a Force Ghost? I don't know, but in the EU a guy finds his cut off hand from the surface of Bespin or something and clones Luke from it. The clone is cleverly named "Luuuke".
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May 15, 2014 20:50
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Jerk McJerkface posted:I don't know, but in the EU a guy finds his cut off hand from the surface of Bespin or something and clones Luke from it. The clone is cleverly named "Luuuke". Timothy Zahn's interpretation of the Force is notably mechanistic compared to the very mystical interpretation George Lucas seems to favor, and most of the EU followed suit. Parts of it manage to present an interesting contrast. In the films, people who believe midichlorian counts over their own senses are unjustified; in the books, they are justified. This is why the EU had to go.
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May 15, 2014 20:53
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IT BEGINS posted:Am I crazy for thinking, in a world with telekinesis, mind control, and dudes who shoot lightning, that ghosts are just ghosts and not some complex multi-level metaphor for coping mechanisms? I dunno, I supposed I just like applying Occam's Razor. None of those things literally happened in the movies. Telekinesis is a metaphor for effort and perseverance, mind control for propaganda and the state of journalism, and lightning for the power of language. The Emperor is killing Luke by hurting his feelings. Obi-Wan and Yoda could repel this form of attack due to their maturity and adherence to the Jedi maxim, "Lightsabers and blasters may kill me faster, but words can never hurt me."
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May 15, 2014 20:58
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IT BEGINS posted:Am I crazy for thinking, in a world with telekinesis, mind control, and dudes who shoot lightning, that ghosts are just ghosts and not some complex multi-level metaphor for coping mechanisms? I dunno, I supposed I just like applying Occam's Razor. Yeah, but we don't live in that world, even if some nerds desperately want to. Maybe the story in Star Wars has a point, or maybe it's just Space Ghosts. Who knows?
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May 15, 2014 20:58
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I think it's okay for a ghost to be understood as representing more or less the same sort of things that ghosts usually represent.
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May 15, 2014 21:01
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So, you know, what SMG said?
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May 15, 2014 21:02
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He said that the symbolism underlying Luke seeing Obi-Wan's ghost on Hoth had more to do with Yoda's motivation than Obi-Wan's.
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May 15, 2014 21:06
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:None of those things literally happened in the movies. Telekinesis is a metaphor for effort and perseverance, mind control for propaganda and the state of journalism, and lightning for the power of language. The Emperor is killing Luke by hurting his feelings. Obi-Wan and Yoda could repel this form of attack due to their maturity and adherence to the Jedi maxim, "Lightsabers and blasters may kill me faster, but words can never hurt me." I've long argued that Obi Wan never existed at all and was manifest as a shared desire among the series' characters as a surrogate son/father to fill roles Qui Gon/Anakin/Yoda/Luke/Leia/Han never had. I can't believe you guys actually bought that Obi Wan was a real human. The subtext is obvious.
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May 15, 2014 21:06
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IT BEGINS posted:Am I crazy for thinking, in a world with telekinesis, mind control, and dudes who shoot lightning, that ghosts are just ghosts and not some complex multi-level metaphor for coping mechanisms? I dunno, I supposed I just like applying Occam's Razor. You have to remember that SMG and most of CineD operate under Death of the Author: All readings of a work are valid, as long as they agree with mine.
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May 15, 2014 21:08
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verybad posted:Maybe the story in Star Wars has a point, or maybe it's just Space Ghosts. Who knows? Can't something be real in the in the movie world and still be a metaphor? Telekinesis doesn't stop being a metaphor for perseverance just because it literally does move things around in the movie world. IT BEGINS fucked around with this message at 21:11 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 21:09
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:None of those things literally happened in the movies. Telekinesis is a metaphor for effort and perseverance, mind control for propaganda and the state of journalism, and lightning for the power of language. The Emperor is killing Luke by hurting his feelings. Obi-Wan and Yoda could repel this form of attack due to their maturity and adherence to the Jedi maxim, "Lightsabers and blasters may kill me faster, but words can never hurt me." You're being just hilarious right now but things also can function on two levels, having an "in-universe" explanation and a metaphorical one. Even in the beloved Red Letter Media reviews, the narrator uses the exact example you just used: "force lightning" as a metaphor, a way to show he is much more powerful than Luke. He is literally shooting lightning at him, but it is also a visual shorthand for the overwhelming power of the Dark Side. Then he contrasts how - in the prequels - stuff like Force LightningTM becomes a video game style "move" devoid of any deeper meaning*. *SMG would likely disagree here and say that the cheapening of these "powers" has a point and you would all likely mock him.
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May 15, 2014 21:10
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IT BEGINS posted:Can't something be real in the in the movie world and still be a metaphor? Telekinesis doesn't stop being a metaphor for perseverance just because it really does physically move things around in the movie world. I don't know, what does wookiepedia say?
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May 15, 2014 21:10
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Guy A. Person posted:You're being just hilarious right now but things also can function on two levels, having an "in-universe" explanation and a metaphorical one. I would disagree that the prequels make the powers any less symbolic. This symbolism is just different, with less reverence given their practitioners. e.g. Dooku's lightning is a flashy nonsense because he does not possess real power, only an illusion of it handed down by Palpatine. It is dismissed with a wave because it's insubstantial and meaningless. sassassin fucked around with this message at 21:14 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 21:12
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Bongo Bill posted:He said that the symbolism underlying Luke seeing Obi-Wan's ghost on Hoth had more to do with Yoda's motivation than Obi-Wan's. Honestly I think the scene is more about Luke. He went on a big adventure with Obi-Wan to search the bright center of the universe. Obi-Wan made a big impression on Luke and then he died. Luke finds himself yet again in the rear end end of the universe, far away from any bright spots. There he almost dies, thinks back to Obi-Wan and figures his own death looks pretty pathetic in comparison. Luke survives but doesn't want to die a lovely death, so he goes off to learn more from his dead friend by finding others that knew him in life (his friend's space magic teacher). How does he know where to find Yoda? gently caress a ghost told him who gives a poo poo it's just a story guys
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May 15, 2014 21:33
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Ebenezer Scrooge gets visited by ghosts and no one seems to trip over them being symbols/metaphors. Its just a shared experience between more than one character here.
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May 15, 2014 21:40
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sassassin posted:I would disagree that the prequels make the powers any less symbolic. Except the part where he force lightings Anakin and knocks him out in ATOC. I understand you don't remember that, the movie is so boring and unforgettable. Or the metaphor is that it's so ineffective Anakin just goes to sleep.
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May 15, 2014 21:55
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Ebenezer Scrooge gets visited by ghosts and no one seems to trip over them being symbols/metaphors. Its just a shared experience between more than one character here. They are metaphors to us, the readers. That doesn't mean that they don't actually exist as ghosts in the story.
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May 15, 2014 22:02
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IT BEGINS posted:Am I crazy for thinking, in a world with telekinesis, mind control, and dudes who shoot lightning, that ghosts are just ghosts and not some complex multi-level metaphor for coping mechanisms? I dunno, I supposed I just like applying Occam's Razor. Well all those things are a direct product of "the Force", an ambiguous concept that is said to suffuse all living things. So while you're not crazy you are overlooking what these movies are about. The entire set of movies is about how these powers are not just tools and are intricately linked to our emotions and inner desires. Even when I disagree with SMG (and I do here), the people who pick fights with him are so relentlessly obtuse in their efforts to prove that All Analysis Is Overthinking that I want to agree with him. Half the time in this thread he makes the same point ya'll are making, but with different words, and then you quote him and disagree with yourselves. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 22:14 on May 15, 2014 |
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May 15, 2014 22:10
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IT BEGINS posted:Am I crazy for thinking, in a world with telekinesis, mind control, and dudes who shoot lightning, that ghosts are just ghosts and not some complex multi-level metaphor for coping mechanisms? I dunno, I supposed I just like applying Occam's Razor. Exactly: Obi-Wan is simply a ghost, and ghosts are simply not real. In the film, you are simply seeing a thing that is not real. Q: Why doesn't Han see the ghost when he rides his horse straight towards it? A: Ghosts aren't real. There's no complex metaphor here. Luke is seeing a thing that doesn't actually exist. He believes he saw it because Jedi-ism is a religion, not a science.
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May 15, 2014 22:28
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IT BEGINS posted:They are metaphors to us, the readers. That doesn't mean that they don't actually exist as ghosts in the story. This. Let me try another scene to express myself without the snark: Vader's torture scene with Leia in ANH. I think (hope) we can agree that that scene is a metaphorical and drat near explicit rape. The imagery is unmistakable -- a tiny girl in a virginal white dress cowering before an enormous man or masculine presence dressed in black accompanied by a penetrative instrument. The final image before the door closes is the man in black (black man?) visually engulfing the girl. Was it a symbolic rape, did it evoke rape? Yes. Torture is bad, but we take rape much more personally, it is seen as a the worst kind of violation, an attack on our individual sovereignty more profound than mere pain or injury. So by making the scene a metaphorical rape, the point is driven home more forcefully (Jesus, no pun intended, seriously) -- dude is really loving evil and by extension comments on the nature of the Empire as well. But in the movie's reality do we have any evidence that Vader pulled his armored pants down and did unspeakable things with whatever is left of his junk? Do we have any evidence that the torture droid did something to her genitalia? No on both counts. The droid obviously injects something that causes great pain or acts as some kind of truth serum. So back to the ghosts. The ghosts certainly could be, hell, probably are, metaphors for memory and experience. But then we ask the same question: do we have evidence that they exist as actual ghosts, beings external to the characters? Yes! The ghost's physical incarnations literally disappear upon death (and I'm sure there's metaphors there too but I'm not smart enough to think of them right now). Both Luke and Yoda respond to the voices physically. Luke thinks his helmet is malfunctioning. If Luke was just thinking back about Ben and what he learned from him, it would have been very easy and straightforward to depict: just as he's about to pull the trigger, he hears Ben's words (doesn't act like a he's hearing it with his ears) and maybe even remembers how not relying on his senses (in this case a machine substitute for his senses) allowed him to deflect the bolts from the practice device. Instead, Lucas goes out of his way to have his actor respond specifically as one would if they heard a voice. The same ghost eventually imparts specific information on more than one occasion and converses with Yoda outside of Luke's presence. The ghost tells Luke that he can't help him if he takes on Vader. Why would Luke's memory or experience refuse to help him? We might say it's because he has rejected Ben's advice, but then why cry out to him? So there you go. I know that most everyone here has forgotten more about film than I know and I know even less about critical theory, so I fully expect to get demolished. But as I promised, no snark this time.
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May 15, 2014 22:47
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sassassin posted:I don't know, what does wookiepedia say? Right this second? "Waaaaaaahhhhhhhhh"
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May 15, 2014 22:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Exactly: Obi-Wan is simply a ghost, and ghosts are simply not real. In the film, you are simply seeing a thing that is not real. Maybe because Han isn't a jedi?
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May 15, 2014 22:49
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Kurtofan posted:Maybe because Han isn't a jedi? This is bullshit, he shoots Boba Fett while blind and is therefore clearly force-sensitive. 
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May 15, 2014 22:52
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Exactly: Obi-Wan is simply a ghost, and ghosts are simply not real. In the film, you are simply seeing a thing that is not real. Swear to god, not being a smartass here... Ghosts aren't real in our world. Ok. But neither is the ability to travel faster than the speed of light. Or tauntauns or sentient droids or planet destroying battle stations. So if the film is allowed to make those other unreal things real in the movie's universe, why are ghosts any different?
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May 15, 2014 22:53
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Jerk McJerkface posted:Except the part where he force lightings Anakin and knocks him out in ATOC. I understand you don't remember that, the movie is so boring and unforgettable. Anakin is a punk bitch and easily swayed by the trappings of power, since its visible expression is his central focus in the movie. He believes in the effectiveness of displays of bravado, and can be brought low by them. Deceit is a central theme in AOTC, and all actual power lies with its practitioners; Yoda with his cane and the gait of an infirm old man, Palpatine in the shadows, Padme's use of a double etc. The Jedi reveal themselves on Geonosis in a flashy attempt at intimidation and get destroyed by unending ranks of the underclasses rising up from the depths.
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May 15, 2014 23:07
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Party Boat posted:This is bullshit, he shoots Correct. This literally happens. Goons say it because they are literate and noticed it.
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May 16, 2014 00:00
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Mr. Funny Pants posted:Swear to god, not being a smartass here... Because positive knowledge of ghosts (the belief that they are measurable via PKE meters and whatever) threatens authentic belief. This was the satirical message of the prequels. Fans insist that midichlorians were a bad idea, but then immediately flip sides and claim that Obi Wan is literally immortal and can fly through the universe as, essentially, a transparent interdimensional alien. This is the logic of the dark side. Anakin's attempt at making Padme literally immortal crushed her soul, baffling the medical robots. The robots are incapable of belief.
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May 16, 2014 00:31
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In your rush to discredit SMG, be careful not to run too far the other way. There is clearly more to the Force than a rigid set of superpowers. Becoming one with the Force and persisting beyond death clearly means more than "When you die you get Invisibility and Walk Through Walls powers". Obi Wan is one with the Force. The Force is one with everything. So what does it mean to be a Force Ghost? It isn't just "you hang around as an invisible dude." This isn't next level analysis, this is the literal (literal!) plot of the movies. If you want to disagree with SMG you can do better than "Well if it's just a memory how come he talks to it?"
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May 16, 2014 00:42
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Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.
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May 16, 2014 00:42
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This thread is kinda like the prequels. In response to a discussion of perceived symbolism, a character just offered a baffling, rape-themed monologue about how literal actions can have metaphorical meanings. This non sequitur was meant to somehow disprove the former discussion. It wasn't particularly well written or delivered, and I could make fun of it or I could read more into it; both are fine choices.
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May 16, 2014 00:55
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Let's see, what really happened in the alternate universe that came into being when George Lucas (God) filmed some actors doing things and edited the scenes together into a narrative?
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May 16, 2014 01:00
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