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caberham posted:Mixed race/culture environments are messy. People probably loving hate their jobs and boss already being so underpaid, the factory system shop probably already has a few operational errors, last thing you want is to have a US vs Them mentality. Plus I don't think your average Chinese dude (or most factory dudes) in general are good at racial/cultural sensitivity. This applies to a lot of the unskilled factory situations in Thailand. I know one case where a garment factory is staffed by underpaid Burmese migrants (who speak several languages among them), the factory floor is managed by Burmese and Thais, the upper management is Taiwanese and the facility owner is an old Thai patriarch. Pretty much nothing ever goes right, no one is truly happy and the profit margins are barely viable, but the orders do come out, mostly, on time, and the workers get paid. For reference, this is a top-tier garment factory that actually bothers helping its workers get legal permits and makes clothes for major international brands. There's plenty of even stranger situations out there.
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May 17, 2014 06:20
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dinoputz posted:Whoa, there's that term again... Thanks for that. I took a class on Chinese migration way back in college and had to do a big report where I used that word over and over. I always wanted to ask the (Singaporean) professor more about that term but didn't for whatever reason. I always wondered... yes, albeit at different times in different places. the formation of Malaysia settled the question for the largest overseas-Chinese diasporas, i.e., the Straits Settlements and Singapore, by granting permanent status for the Chinese communities there in return for recognition of limited, permanent Malay privileges. The delicacy of this founding bargain means that Beijing blundering around is more of a liability than an asset the loss of influence thereafter is also partially self-inflicted: the social organizations binding the diaspora to China heavily involved the business community, and then you also have Mandarin standardization + simplified Chinese reform on top of that. Even today the descendents of the Straits Chinese speak dialects, predominantly Cantonese, and write in traditional script. So all the ties built up during the nationalist awakening, the civil war, the Japanese invasions - all the businesses sending money home to support the wars, the best and brightest going back to the motherland to serve their country - suddenly got erased. The main social tool the PRC had was ties to the anti-Japanese communist militias and the rural Chinese, same as the CCP did in the mainland itself, but those got stomped out by the British successfully during the Emergency across the 50s.
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May 17, 2014 06:43
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In mainland the term is mostly used for people who came back to China after moving oversea. Why is it a offensive term?
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May 17, 2014 06:50
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Senso posted:I've lived and worked in Saigon for two years and I haven't met anybody with respect for the government or the party, at work or otherwise. Young people assume the government is corrupt and don't care about communism, they want new iPhones and Hollywood and K-Pop. They are very proud of their nation and everything but I think you're right, most people (I generalize of course - and I was in the south, in a big city, Hanoi or the countryside might be more pro-government) just don't seem to care and want to live their lives as normal modern people. Yeah, from talking to people when I was there, Hanoi is like this separate den of tigers and snakes. You can't trust them, all politicians. It self perpetuates because they control admission to the top schools. A lot of Hanoi kids get picked, shockingly. Bribes work everywhere. We don't talk about the war, my parents considered their country lost that day.
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May 17, 2014 07:10
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whatever7 posted:In mainland the term is mostly used for people who came back to China after moving oversea. Why is it a offensive term? implies disloyalty to malaysia/singapore/indonesia/country-of-choice on one hand, as I noted and implies an expectation of subservience/loyalty to beijing and recognition of the supremacy/authority of the motherland chinese nation/people on the other - obligation to "be as Chinese", to speak and write Mandarin well, share varying Chinese foreign policy priorities, etc. even when (e.g.) Malaysia values good relations with Japan and the retention of a hard-won regional diplomatic peace in the aftermath of the Confrontation and the Vietnam War. and in the wake of post-1980s liberalization and ensuing Chinese emigration, also their own local traditions which the overseas Chinese have come to conceptualize as "Chineseness" (because of their own domestic social position and inherited southern coastal Chinese traditions) and have "real" Chinese threaten this definition (atop of the usual economic-immigration tensions). e.g., the curry war
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May 17, 2014 07:12
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I'm sure the influx of Mainlanders in recent years hasn't helped that much, heh. "Holy poo poo, they want me to be like that? gently caress you!"
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May 17, 2014 07:17
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the arc of the Nantah dispute in Singapore politics illustrates the changing nature of Chinese loyalty to a Chinese identity, I think in the 1960s the Chinese-medium school activists could play up both their Chineseness and their left-wing politics. by the 1970s the former was a liability for the latter, and conversely the English-speaking student unions were also coming under siege. ronya fucked around with this message at 08:00 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 07:41
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Baloogan posted:Anyone have any good resources for the actions of the chinese and vietnamese militaries regarding the recent dispute off-shore? Are there any twitter accounts in english worth following? What sort of coverage are you looking for? International security in SE Asia is my little bailiwick here I think, but there haven't been a ton of specifics coming out. I largely follow the Center for Strategic and International Studies because I know a few of the people there and have been to a lot of their events. Their SE Asia twitter (covers all issues, not just the maritime stuff) is here: https://twitter.com/SoutheastAsiaDC and Facebook here https://www.facebook.com/CSISSoutheastAsia Beyond them, I follow The Diplomat for East Asian security in general (and larger issues too), although they're not as quick to update as major news sites are; they're usually good for analysis once or twice a week. http://thediplomat.com/ I don't have any other recommendations besides the usual news outlets. Unfortunately it's not a region that gets a ton of attention... The Vietnamese also released a video of the first set of clashes last week, where they have like 8 minutes of footage of their ships getting blasted with water cannons and rammed by Chinese ships. The Chinese have argued that the VN ships were doing the same, but that's not shown on the video, for one reason or another. The video is embedded in this article: http://tuoitrenews.vn/politics/19513/chinese-vessels-deliberately-rammed-into-vietnamese-boats One of the things to keep in mind on the matter is that these aren't ships from the Chinese or Vietnamese navies... they're the Vietnamese "Fisheries Surveillance Force" and the Chinese "Maritime Safety Administration". It's kind of like having, I don't know, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service blasting the boats of the Mexican Coast Guard. It's a serious event, to be certain, but there are several avenues of escalation that haven't been reached yet (and hopefully will not). With China's South China Sea clashes especially, a lot of their boats that are causing trouble aren't even the Maritime Safety guys-- they're unofficial "fishing boats". Now, who exactly is piloting those boats and whether they're under the employ of the Chinese government, I couldn't say... but it provides sort of a buffer between the clashes and official government action that China has been leaning on for some time now. I think if we were to see actual Chinese naval forces involved then we'd be in for some serious poo poo, though again I don't expect that any time soon.
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May 17, 2014 15:03
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Wasn't the Singapore curry war more infuriating for locals because the new mainland family moved into government housing block? I remember a Singapore goon telling me this story and lots of Singaporeans started cooking curry in their homes. I kinda sympathize the immigrants being an immigrant myself..actually no. They are just too obnoxious, gently caress em
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May 17, 2014 15:49
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ronya posted:implies disloyalty to malaysia/singapore/indonesia/country-of-choice on one hand, as I noted I think you meant to say "Sinocentrism". Its just a word to refer to "oversea Chinese", are you saying there should be separated words for Chinese who live and naturalized in a different country and Chinese who live and move back to China? Language its a living thing. you can't control it.
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May 17, 2014 15:56
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'Viet kieu' has no negative connotations. Pretty sure even official paperwork uses the term.
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May 17, 2014 19:09
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whatever7 posted:I think you meant to say "Sinocentrism". nah, not like that. Rather, the problem with the label is not the use as a word for descendents of Chinese emigres who return to China, it is the use as a generic word for the descendents of Chinese emigres who remain overseas - the implication that all of these people are and have always been Chinese citizens-in-waiting, despite the fractious political history by those communities to argue otherwise. The context is that the specific waves of Chinese emigration during the 19th century to Southeast Asia tended to initially settle into communities divided by dialect and their hometowns in China - in this period, overseas community formation revolved around clan associations. However, the increasing mass politics as the Qing crumbled led to the nationalist awakening spreading overseas to the communities formed in these emigrations, so there was a period with vigorous formation of overseas organizations identifying with assorted nationalist ideals. This is where a large number of organizations and political movements that adopt a pan-Chinese identity and actively call themselves 华侨 or 南洋 date from. This political identity only accelerated under assorted traumas affected the region, especially the period of Japanese rule and thereafter the anti-colonial revolutionary struggle. However, awkwardly enough, these identities became liabilities after independence and disappeared down a memory hole - you only see the names remaining today, with much of the political associations whitewashed. The Malaysian or Indonesian Chinese self-concept seeks to identify with faction of Chinese who participated in forming Malaysia or supporting the national revolution, not the Chinese who preferred to support the wrong faction (e.g., the non-trivial amount of Straits Chinese who preferred continued British rule to the prospect of Malay nationalism), preferred to devote their material efforts to factions in the Chinese civil war (e.g., Tan Kah Kee), or, worst of all, supported assorted movements to create assorted Chinese-dominated states. This isn't as ridiculous as it sounds today, in 1957 the Malayan peninsula was narrowly majority Chinese, and a great number of the immigrants were first or second generation economic migrants escaping the instability in China; and both the CCP and KMT sponsored overseas Chinese groups: before 1953 the 华侨共产党 were directly tied to the CCP, and the KMT's official position under Chiang Kai-Shek at the time was that overseas Chinese in Malaya, the Philippines, etc. were Chinese citizens rather than British/American/Dutch subjects (the CCP was more willing to recognize dual nationality, at least until the 1950s and 1960s, where it sought normalization of relationships to the new states and began to revoke Chinese citizenship for the diaspora). This kind of movement in labels isn't at all unusual, compare e.g., the evolution of the German-American pan-German ethnic identity and communal groups like the National German-American Alliance in the US, which expanded rapidly under anti-prohibition sentiment before collapsing at the start of WW1.
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May 17, 2014 22:05
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Dude, that's not how the word used in China. If you are 2nd and 3rd generation immigrant who born outside of China, you are "华裔", not "华侨". edit: even if the word had/has a different meaning in a specific period and a specific region, its still not an "offensive term", its a word associate with a cultural political ideology. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 22:58 on May 17, 2014 |
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May 17, 2014 22:48
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er, yes. The diaspora is now 华裔 instead of 华侨 because the Chinese government doesn't wish to continually provoke foreign governments by referring to foreign Chinese as members of the same integral nation. This is because using 华侨 is, in fact, provocative to said overseas communities. Why is the offensiveness of terms supposed to be dictated by how the term is used in China?
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May 17, 2014 23:17
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Even American Chinese language newspaper with no mainland affiliation (i.e. World Journal) use the word 华裔/華裔。
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May 18, 2014 03:47
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CronoGamer posted:What sort of coverage are you looking for? International security in SE Asia is my little bailiwick here I think, but there haven't been a ton of specifics coming out. I largely follow the Center for Strategic and International Studies because I know a few of the people there and have been to a lot of their events. Their SE Asia twitter (covers all issues, not just the maritime stuff) is here: https://twitter.com/SoutheastAsiaDC and Facebook here https://www.facebook.com/CSISSoutheastAsia Thanks so much.
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May 18, 2014 03:50
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caberham posted:Wasn't the Singapore curry war more infuriating for locals because the new mainland family moved into government housing block? Also, the Chinese family is objectively wrong in disliking the smell of curry. Curry is delicious.
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May 18, 2014 04:13
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whatever7 posted:Even American Chinese language newspaper with no mainland affiliation (i.e. World Journal) use the word 华裔/華裔。 And perhaps they do so because the word 华侨 is now problematic...? caberham posted:Wasn't the Singapore curry war more infuriating for locals because the new mainland family moved into government housing block? Yeah. Although the incident did give an opportunity for a lot of grievances to come pouring out. The Singaporean Chinese resentment of the Chinese Chinese for annexing "their" Chinatown was already present, for example. but opportunities and ways to phrase that irritation were limited (more Chinese than thou...). The curry incident was given life in part because it borrowed the cover of defending ethnic harmony/integration. ronya fucked around with this message at 06:49 on May 18, 2014 |
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May 18, 2014 06:45
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Baloogan posted:Thanks so much. The Lowy Interpreter runs some good stuff as well, and includes commentary by Andrew Selth, one of the top Burmese military watchers. I can second The Diplomat, but this past month they've really dropped the ball on their normally good Burma coverage ("Look, punks with crazy hair in Yangon!" "Wow, check out these Karen rebels at a tourist-accessible base across the river from Mae Sot!" etc.). For long reads on the Burmese military or armed conflict in the country, anything by Bertil Lintner, Desmond Ball, Martin Smith, Ashley South and Mary Callahan are also worth checking out. MothraAttack fucked around with this message at 11:56 on May 18, 2014 |
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May 18, 2014 11:47
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So anyone have a perspective on the current escalations between china and Vietnam. I know the Vietnamese do not particularly like the Chinese but with china putting troops in the border I was wondering if the Vietnamese are even close to being able to respond convincingly. The last china-vietnam war had a purpose of testing the Chinese military. That may be a motive for the Chinese in this case as well. My point is we can't know if the Chinese are seriously considering attacking but if they think the Vietnamese military would be an easy fight that may increase the likelihood of an engagement. I'm not really looking for a Tom Clancy scenario here, but rather a general idea. An earlier poster seemed to think there was a level of cynicism amongst the Vietnamese towards their government, would something like that carry over to the military with regards to fighting the Chinese? Is nationalist sentiment that strong still or would most Vietnamese rather have iPods and such?
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May 19, 2014 16:42
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Torpor posted:My point is we can't know if the Chinese are seriously considering attacking but if they think the Vietnamese military would be an easy fight that may increase the likelihood of an engagement. One of the main things keeping the CCP in power is the belief that its literal private army, the PLA, will protect China from foreign threats. The CCP and the PLA have been criticized in recent years for being weak and the central government has been perceived as not being forceful enough by the average person in China as well. The threat to Chinese nationals in Vietnam and the oil platform could be enough to push China into a limited engagement in Vietnam. It's all about face, justifying a huge military budget in a supposed communist country with no real safety net, and a belief that China is owed a good deal by the rest of the world. This is all probably just Beijing posturing and will stand down once Vietnam flinches. Even if Vietnam doesn't, the Chinese press will spin it as a resounding PRC victory. The PLA is reluctant to attack since there's a good chance things could go very badly like in 1979. An attack would also set Beijing back a great deal with their other neighbors who are already fearful of China's aggressive posturing.
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May 19, 2014 23:41
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-27480845 Umm
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May 20, 2014 00:19
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Well gently caress
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May 20, 2014 00:36
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what, again? Eh.
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May 20, 2014 00:44
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I believe there will be more low intensity bumper boat games coming up, there is why China is sending out boads to get most of her citizens back for now. I have head besides Taiwan factories, other Korean and Japanese plants are also damaged by the rioters, specially in the south. My theory of Beijing's medium term plan is to force Vietnam's hands to settle the dispute with China first. Among the countries that have sea dispute with China, Vietnam obviously has lease chip on the table. Viet really can't do much about it. Even Vietnam's neighbors, Laos and Cambodia are biggest Chinese allies in Southeast Asia. Once China force Vietnam to sign a new border treaty with China, they will turn the sight to Philippines. You think this is bad, poo poo will really hit the fan when China start building an airstrip on the Scarborough Shoal. I was told that shoal is an ideal location for land reclamation project in the south china sea. I can imagine the riots in Philippians has the potential to be much worse too.
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May 20, 2014 01:19
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IT'S NOT A COUP, OKAY GUYS?! GAWD.
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May 20, 2014 02:10
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is Singapore still the biggest ASEAN military spender? yeah, looking it up, it is. that's kinda pathetic
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May 20, 2014 05:00
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Why do they call her Ms. Yingluck? Isn't Shinawatra her last name?
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May 20, 2014 05:02
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whatever7 posted:My theory of Beijing's medium term plan is to force Vietnam's hands to settle the dispute with China first. Among the countries that have sea dispute with China, Vietnam obviously has lease chip on the table. Viet really can't do much about it. Even Vietnam's neighbors, Laos and Cambodia are biggest Chinese allies in Southeast Asia. Once China force Vietnam to sign a new border treaty with China, they will turn the sight to Philippines. Laos and Cambodia are non-entities from a military perspective, I don't think Vietnam is terribly concerned about them. The Philippines is much more vulnerable, their military is a joke with obsolete equipment. Classic example of a third world military geared more toward personal enrichment and internal control than national defense.
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May 20, 2014 05:15
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Philippines has the US wildcard, nobody knows how much military support will US commit (and US doesn't want to show how much military they will commit, like the Senkaku/diaoyu Island dispute) Vietnam won't get anything else beside their own. And their Navy is still no match to the Chinese naval hardware. I don't think it will escalate to a hot war. It's going to be a lot of fender bender on the sea. whatever7 fucked around with this message at 05:59 on May 20, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 05:56
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whatever7 posted:And their Navy is still no match to the Chinese naval hardware. They are also buying new surface craft from Russia complete with advanced missile systems. Vietnam's navy may not be quite as advanced as China's but it is still more than capable of giving China a bloody nose. It is in fact specifically designed for this purpose. If I'm not mistaken it is the second most advanced navy in ASEAN after Singapore's. And you can bet that if things heat up more with China Vietnam will get access to Western gear as well. Soy Division fucked around with this message at 06:10 on May 20, 2014 |
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May 20, 2014 06:07
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They have two of those subs, out of six. They will be a significant force but they aren't there quite yet.
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May 20, 2014 06:08
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Baloogan posted:They have two of those subs, out of six. They will be a significant force but they aren't there quite yet.
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May 20, 2014 06:12
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Well lets wait for the China evacuation ships leave first and see anything will happen afterward. I think at this point both sides are trying to cool it down. China has only announced 2 riot dead, which I believe is a lot lower than the rumored dead count.
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May 20, 2014 06:40
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Right now it's mostly a lot of saber rattling and I seriously doubt either side want to intensify the conflict.
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May 20, 2014 06:45
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Badger of Basra posted:Why do they call her Ms. Yingluck? Isn't Shinawatra her last name? The English style is just trying to follow local standard.
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May 20, 2014 07:23
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hey so i read a super long thing a few months back about the background here, but it ended in like 2012... so catch me up - did either the king or the queen full blown die yet? - is thaksin still in exile? - did that 'prem' guy who was really running things die yet? - whats up with the prince of hiv these days?
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May 20, 2014 14:26
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StabbinHobo posted:- did either the king or the queen full blown die yet? quote:- is thaksin still in exile? quote:- did that 'prem' guy who was really running things die yet? quote:- whats up with the prince of hiv these days? There's a sequel now written by the same guy, you should check it out, zenjournalist.com
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May 20, 2014 14:43
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Thailand as usual http://m.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/05/20/thailand-declares-martial-law-time-for-a-selfie/
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May 20, 2014 21:41
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the cities are predominantly yellow to begin with, so I guess the presence of the army is to prevent a riot if red protesters attempt to show up
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May 21, 2014 05:49
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