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Fereydun posted:Liu Bei owns. How the hell did he get all these guys to continuously give him poo poo and defect to him and fight absolutely insane, losing battles all the time? Liu Bei was an rear end in a top hat, but OOZED charisma. He sweet talked his way out of certain death several times, and on a few occasions convinced warlords to give him land and armies just because. If he tried to be more of a manipulator and did more sneaky behind the curtain schemes he likely could have been more successful in his early career. Instead he loved playing general which almost always ended in disaster.
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May 20, 2014 18:42
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Speedball posted:Well if they were bandits then why did the Romance glorify them? Robin Hood effect? I'm pretty sure the author was commissioned.
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May 20, 2014 18:42
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Fereydun posted:Liu Bei owns. How the hell did he get all these guys to continuously give him poo poo and defect to him and fight absolutely insane, losing battles all the time? He had a tendency to promise wealth and then have all the people he promised money to end up dead. He also was of the same clan as the emperor so he was cashing in that check every chance he could get.
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May 20, 2014 18:42
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…actually if Dynasty Warriors did play up the Robin Hood effect I think it'd make Shu a lot more interesting. Just sayin'.
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May 20, 2014 18:46
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It likely also helped that two of his earliest benefactors (Gongsun Zan and Tao Qian) were horrible tyrants and evil pricks themselves. Gongsun Zan being his old school buddy certainly helped him get a head start. Tao Qian was pretty much on death's door when Liu Bei "saved" him from Cao Cao (it was actually Lu Bu and Chen Gong revolting that caused Cao Cao to retreat, but Liu Bei put his own spin on things) so it wasn't hard for good ol' Xuande to sweet talk him into making him his heir. Of course in the novel, both Gongsun Zan and Tao Qian are whitewashed into virtuous, good men 
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May 20, 2014 18:46
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Brony Hunter posted:Of course in the novel, both Gongsun Zan and Tao Qian are whitewashed into virtuous, good men The novel also tries to make some sort of parallel between Liu Bei and Zhuge Liang being the ideal Emperor/Retainer relationship in opposition to Cao Cao but boy howdy does that gloss over some real historical poo poo on that end as well. Sima Zhao may also be the least conniving usurper in history.
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May 20, 2014 18:50
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Speedball posted:Ugh, it's like finding out your favorite author was a horrible racist.
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May 20, 2014 18:53
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Though it goes to say that Shu obviously wasn't the only one with total bastards around. Wu had more than enough with just Gan Ning, who among other things, would tie boats down with and use silk for other general things, then tear it the hell up as he left just to flaunt. Oh yeah, there's also the story of him tying a young man to a tree and shooting him full of arrows for some minor screw-up or another.
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May 20, 2014 18:56
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Then there's Pan Zhang, one of Sun Quan's old drinking buddies turned general. Used to rob and steal from his friends and subordinates to pay off his gambling debts, and tortured and killed prisoners just because.
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May 20, 2014 18:58
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Endorph posted:Honestly, it's warfare in the 2nd-3rd century. The Three Kingdoms era is positively civil by those standards. Yeah theres not a lot of fun videogames based on the 7 Warring States period. I mean, not many times you claim not only physical but also ideological victory over your opponents by burning all their writings and exterminating their practitioners so thoroughly that we basically only know that competitors existed but not what they said.
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May 20, 2014 19:00
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And with all the Romance talk about how lovely most of the people actually were, the irony of reality is Zhang Jiao, tired of the excesses and abuses that the government made (And also unable to join into that government since he couldn't pass the entrance test), was trying to lead what was essentially a massively popular communist revolt in an attempt to bring about an ostensibly better life for the common man. I've even see some stories that suggest that Zhang Jiao and his cult treated, or at least tried to treat, foreigners and women with an equal respect to Chinese men. This is the first, for lack of a better word, villain in Romance
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May 20, 2014 19:05
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Shima Honnou posted:And with all the Romance talk about how lovely most of the people actually were, the irony of reality is Zhang Jiao, tired of the excesses and abuses that the government made (And also unable to join into that government since he couldn't pass the entrance test), was trying to lead what was essentially a massively popular communist revolt in an attempt to bring about an ostensibly better life for the common man. I've even see some stories that suggest that Zhang Jiao and his cult treated, or at least tried to treat, foreigners and women with an equal respect to Chinese men. Zhang Jiao and his followers also gave free medical care and treatment (as basic as it was) to commoners and were very charitable with their food and supplies. The revolt almost actually succeeded as well. His agents in the capital were betrayed and found out, alerting the authorities to the uprising before it even happened. The Zhang brothers were forced to start their rebellion before their armies were fully trained and mobilised. It didn't help that the Zhang brothers and the other leading members of the cult died shortly after, leaving the Yellow Turbans as a massive, disorganised mob spread over Northern China, with no leadership, goal or land. There's a good reason many of them resorted to banditry, and some weren't even quelled until over twenty years later.
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May 20, 2014 19:09
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Even KOEI's black-and-white has them as 'The way of Peace'. Not anything overly derogatory. Though the 'preacher/cult' bit can be regarded as sketchy.
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May 20, 2014 19:21
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It does feel like the games are getting more derogatory of Shu, though. I mean, they rarely outright state it but DW8 definitely smacks much more of 'and then Liu Bei hosed up and then Guan Yu broke a promise again' than any of the games in the past.
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May 20, 2014 19:30
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One thing remains constant: Lu Meng was the coolest. His story has always ruled, and it continues to rule to this day.
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May 20, 2014 20:20
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I like how most of the alternate routes for Wu just seem to vary the degree to which Wu is hosed
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May 20, 2014 20:30
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Shinjobi posted:One thing remains constant: Lu Meng was the coolest. His story has always ruled, and it continues to rule to this day. 
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May 20, 2014 20:39
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Captain Oblivious posted:I like how most of the alternate routes for Wu just seem to vary the degree to which Wu is hosed Yeah, they still don't really win but less of them are dead. Hooray? Also, while the DW games are fun and all, these were a bunch of people trying to take over "the world" and willing to do anything to achieve that. It's basically a bunch of supervillians.
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May 20, 2014 20:46
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kissekatt posted:His name is Bu, not Meng. This picture bugs me. Really, Lu Bu? Diet?
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May 20, 2014 20:51
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gently caress the fortune hunter skill. You need to have over 1500 KOs before you defeat an officer to just get "a chance" at getting it? Jesus, what a grind. And what does "increase luck" even do?
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May 20, 2014 20:52
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Speedball posted:Well if they were bandits then why did the Romance glorify them? Robin Hood effect? China had a habit of alternating between being ruled by the Han Chinese and the Mongols for their major dynasties. The book was written during the Ming dynasty so Shu being glorified was probably to connect the Ming Dynasty with the Han dynasty.
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May 20, 2014 21:03
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Zelda Musou/Hyrule Warriors announced for August 15th release in Japan. No other information than that unfortunately. http://m.joystiq.com/2014/05/20/report-hyrule-warriors-coming-to-japan-on-august-14/
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May 20, 2014 21:24
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HenryEx posted:gently caress the fortune hunter skill. You need to have over 1500 KOs before you defeat an officer to just get "a chance" at getting it? It allows you to find better weapons.
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May 20, 2014 21:55
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HenryEx posted:gently caress the fortune hunter skill. You need to have over 1500 KOs before you defeat an officer to just get "a chance" at getting it? I was probably pretty lucky but the first time I got 1500 KOs was on the Wei story stage where I think you can first play Xu Zhu, after that I killed 6 officers and got 6 levels in fortune hunter. Probably subject to diminishing returns later like everything seems to be. Don't go for this in every battle, you'll just get mad. Figure one out that works well. What's the max level on skills? Things slow down a lot approaching 20, at least on normal. I'm not really understanding bonds. Dudes' bars get maxed pretty fast but I don't seem to get the events very often. It seems like once the bar is maxed you just get the events at random whether they're your bodyguard or not? Then there's no real indication if someone is maxed? Also are certain officers better assigned to certain posts? Meng Huo's given me stuff on the farm two out of four trips but no one else has ever given me anything. On the topic of ROTK portrayals I thought the film Red Cliff was very pro-Wu and kind of anti-Shu. This was weird having just read the Yokoyama Mitsuteru manga where Zhou Yu is basically twirling his moustache constantly saying "I'll get that Zhuge Liang if it's the last thing I do!"
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May 20, 2014 22:15
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All this actual history talk has me excited to learn more about the time period. Is Romance of the Three Kingdoms actually readable? The drat thing is two volumes long and the excerpts I've skimmed seemed pretty dry. That's not a huge problem, I've read Shelby Foote's civil war series for Christ's sake, but I was hoping for something a little lighter. Any suggestions? Sorry if this is the wrong thread but a lot of you seem to know your poo poo.
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May 20, 2014 22:29
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Happy Hedonist posted:All this actual history talk has me excited to learn more about the time period. Is Romance of the Three Kingdoms actually readable? The drat thing is two volumes long and the excerpts I've skimmed seemed pretty dry. That's not a huge problem, I've read Shelby Foote's civil war series for Christ's sake, but I was hoping for something a little lighter. Any suggestions? I'm interested in this myself and after some research on various forums it seems that the 95-part Chinese series "Three Kingdoms" (2010) is the best way to get into it.
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May 20, 2014 22:32
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The moss roberts translation of three kingdoms is a bit dry but the most readable in my opinion. There's an older translation that tries to add in some better writing but they used all the wrong names/Yale versions so it can be a bit hard to understand the if this is the character you know unless you have like a table up of Yale -> Pinyin names. I think the version up for free on threekingdoms.com is a hybrid version of the two, with the writing of the older one and the more correct translation of the later. But it's full of people with names like ZhouTaiXx talking about how dumb Cao Cao is in the comments section that is hard to ignore. Just clicked a random chapter and found this comment: drunkmastrZhangFei -- Dong Zhuo says "Rarr! bow before my might or I kill you!! rarr!"
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May 20, 2014 22:35
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Belzac posted:drunkmastrZhangFei -- Dong Zhuo says "Rarr! bow before my might or I kill you!! rarr!"
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May 20, 2014 22:41
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HenryEx posted:gently caress the fortune hunter skill. You need to have over 1500 KOs before you defeat an officer to just get "a chance" at getting it? Summon Enemy calls about 100 troops a time. Assuming you carry two people with it, with the third having Gather Supplies for the sake of time, you may only need to hunt down 500 'in the field'. Warning, don't try to cheese it by trying to call them all at once. Start a new summon and the first lot vanish.
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May 20, 2014 22:54
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RotK is surprisingly readable, but it is a very old text, so don't expect the most thrilling, cogent narrative. It actually helps a lot to have knowledge of Dynasty Warriors since keeping track of all the different names is probably the most difficult part. It does have all the same moments you know, and a lot of it is genuinely funny in very matter-of-fact ways. If you've studied classic English literature, I'd equate it to reading pre-Victorian texts.
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May 20, 2014 22:55
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Just finished a stage with 2200 KOs and i am still at level 0 in Fortune Hunter. Yup. Also, i'm getting a strange back screen in Wu Story at Battle of Guangling. When i select "Change Officer" in the pre-battle portion, the screen chances to black, and not the crashy kind! I can at any time still press Start+Select to return to the main menu. But it happens EVERY TIME i try to change officer (and nowhere else), and now i'm stuck with a terrible choice for this level. 
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May 20, 2014 23:05
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Hakkesshu posted:If you've studied classic English literature, I'd equate it to reading pre-Victorian texts. Thanks guys! That doesn't sound too bad and I'm fascinated by the story. I think I'm going to give it a shot. I'll spice up the experience some by visualizing all the characters as they are portrayed in the game too. Everyone ran around with ridiculous armor wielding playing cards, right?
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May 20, 2014 23:24
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Is there somewhere I can watch the 2010 series without having to first pay like $170 for a DVD box set? I've seen the '94 series but I'd like to see the newer one, as well.
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May 20, 2014 23:59
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The 2010 series is all up on YouTube, though obviously the video quality isn't great.
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May 21, 2014 00:06
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The quality of the prose in fansubs is surprisingly high too. I have no idea how accurate they are, but I've never seen a fansub use "perspicacious" before.
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May 21, 2014 00:11
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HenryEx posted:Just finished a stage with 2200 KOs and i am still at level 0 in Fortune Hunter. Yup. I get the change officer blackscreen all the time, but the game works beautifully otherwise so I just stopped using it. Suck it up and kill a bunch of dudes I guess.
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May 21, 2014 00:27
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moskiitto posted:As far as I know, three sworn brothers had to kill each other families after the whole oath on peach garden.  The funny thing about what Brony Hunter said is that almost all of what he revealed about the three brothers is in the novel other than what happened with Xiahou Yuan's niece, and as 5er's post showed TK2010 didn't shy away from those despite using the novel versions, i.e. 'virtuous' Tao Qian gifting Xu to Liu Bei but Lu Bu and Chen Gong's revolt being what actually drove Cao Cao away. Yardbomb posted:The other funny thing about all that is when stuff like DW tries to do some raging alcoholic thing for him, as even some small explanation to him being whacked out. Nope, no record of Zhang Fei being a drunkard or anything, he was just a plain old horrible guy. Shima Honnou posted:This is the first, for lack of a better word, villain in Romance Turncoat Mommy posted:China had a habit of alternating between being ruled by the Han Chinese and the Mongols for their major dynasties. The book was written during the Ming dynasty so Shu being glorified was probably to connect the Ming Dynasty with the Han dynasty. ExMortis posted:On the topic of ROTK portrayals I thought the film Red Cliff was very pro-Wu and kind of anti-Shu. This was weird having just read the Yokoyama Mitsuteru manga where Zhou Yu is basically twirling his moustache constantly saying "I'll get that Zhuge Liang if it's the last thing I do!" Sindai posted:The quality of the prose in fansubs is surprisingly high too. I have no idea how accurate they are, but I've never seen a fansub use "perspicacious" before. As before, The Ravages of Time continues to reign supreme.
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May 21, 2014 05:22
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HenryEx posted:Just finished a stage with 2200 KOs and i am still at level 0 in Fortune Hunter. Yup. The only way I got around this was, instead of hitting Continue on the stage, to go back into the Stage Select and just repick the stage I was on. That let me pick a different character (though I am sure Change Officer would have still blacked me out). ExMortis posted:I'm not really understanding bonds. Dudes' bars get maxed pretty fast but I don't seem to get the events very often. It seems like once the bar is maxed you just get the events at random whether they're your bodyguard or not? Then there's no real indication if someone is maxed? Each 'bar' of bond gives you one event, regardless of if the general is your bodyguard or not. The problem is you can only get 1 event every time you return to camp, so if you are going out, maxing 3 guys in a series of fights, and then switching them out for 3 fresh guys it is going to take awhile to see the events. What I eventually did was just started going in and running 1 single Skirmish on Ultimate (or whatever the highest level you can easily complete is). That would net me the bond event, whatever I got for deploying troops, and I could collect gold/feed animals/etc. That's pretty much how I maxed out all of my buildings, since I could trade weapon materials for 2 building materials. Speedball posted:Woo, Tonquetai unlocked and all facilities maxed out---now I don't know what the hell I'm doing in this new mode! Argh! You talk to the minister to fight the new battles. That's how you get "new" officers. The goal is to get 100% subjugation, which can take several battles depending on your difficulty and how thoroughly you capture everything. You might still need to run the stages several times regardless to get all the officers again. If people desert you because they retreat, you can do the old battles to find them again.
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May 21, 2014 05:28
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There was a nice little DW7 callback in the Wei hypothetical ending that I liked. Dian Wei helping Xu Zhu till the fields  I was thinking of doing the Wu hypothetical, however...I am thinking I should do the Shu hypothetical now. I have a feeling that it is going to be PAIN.
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May 21, 2014 05:41
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I remember a really cool couple of scenes in Kessen II. Kessen II is even more removed from reality than the novel OR Dynasty Warriors, but that's okay because it makes up for it with awesome. After you finish playing as Shu, you switch over to Wei to see Cao Cao's side of things and it puts him in a more complicated role than you'd imagine from the start. One of your officers is Zhang Liao and he has to perform a one-on-one duel with Guan Yu to delay his unit during one battle--you even get a cutscene where they're whirling their spears against each other like blenders. Guan Yu and Zhang Liao reminisce about how they once fought a duel to win the favor of a woman--and Guan Yu won. *clang!* Guan Yu knocks away Zhang Liao's weapon. "Just like I won this time!" But then in a later battle, Zhang Liao and Guan Yu have a rematch with the same purpose--to delay Guan Yu's unit. While they're again whirling away at each other, Zhang Liao asks "Say, that girl…did you marry her?" "I sure did." Zhang Liao smacks Guan Yu's weapon away and says "Then go back to her." Badass.
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May 21, 2014 05:51
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