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Away all Goats posted:Well they don't allow slavery for one thing. Also I'm sure she sees the throne as some sort of birthright and its her duty to her people to take it back. My argumentative snarky response to this is: "Yeah, but they allow incest and it's only her birthright because the Targs took control by force. She has as much right to the Westeros throne as she does to the Miraneese throne now." But yeah, I certainly understand her motivations, I just think that anyone looking objectively should get the hell out of Westeros.
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Jun 3, 2014 03:53
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Blazing Ownager posted:To keep up the video game comparisons rampant in the last few pages, Game of Thrones is a Roguelike: Death is permanent and come come swiftly and gives not a single drat if it's all that fair, making every victory and dodge many times more tense. We saw them bring somebody back to life already though
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Jun 3, 2014 03:55
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xcore posted:My argumentative snarky response to this is: "Yeah, but they allow incest and it's only her birthright because the Targs took control by force. She has as much right to the Westeros throne as she does to the Miraneese throne now." She has no right to the Westeros throne, because the family that theoretically gave her that right also made it boys-only
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Jun 3, 2014 04:02
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That fight was rad and all, but if you came away from that episode not thinking that the Tyrion and Jamie scene was the best from the whole drat thing, then you are crazy. Ultra endearing.
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Jun 3, 2014 04:08
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Bobo the Red posted:She has no right to the Westeros throne, because the family that theoretically gave her that right also made it boys-only Women seem to be able to rule in certain situations, generally "there isn't a man to take the position", but, yeah. And even assuming that women could otherwise only be regents and not proper rulers, she arguably has more of a claim to the throne that her family created than a bunch of people not of her family. Also, dragons. She comes in and crushes everyone, it's not like they can say "well sure you kicked all our asses and burned everyone that opposed you, but you're a woman so you can't have the throne, go back to Essos".
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Jun 3, 2014 04:25
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Bobo the Red posted:She has no right to the Westeros throne, because the family that theoretically gave her that right also made it boys-only The Targs ruled because they were "dragons" and she's the mother of dragons therefore by Targ rules she the rightful ruler of Westeros! As in all of these situations, anybody who has the power can dictate what is "right" and what isn't. Whether it's through finances or manpower or feats of arms or having dragons or being a creepy ice-zombie or being a behind the scenes puppetmaster, if you can back up what you say then you are "right".
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Jun 3, 2014 04:29
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quote:Renly died because he thought he was so special that the rules of succession shouldn't apply to him. No those people both died because they were assassinated by severely evil people.
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Jun 3, 2014 04:44
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Jerusalem posted:The Targs ruled because they were "dragons" and she's the mother of dragons therefore by Targ rules she the rightful ruler of Westeros! The Greyjoys actually mention the medieval Right of Conquest in season 2 - which is exactly this idea. That the strongest ruler has the divine right to rule.
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Jun 3, 2014 04:50
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Vehementi posted:No those people both died because they were assassinated by severely evil people. Being executed after confessing to treason is not assassination, or even murder at all. Them's the breaks.
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Jun 3, 2014 04:52
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Ror posted:Being executed after confessing to treason is not assassination, or even murder at all. Them's the breaks. Sure, just saying, being coerced into a false confession via threats of murder against your family by a conspiracy of murderers & torturers and then having an obviously crazy and evil psychopath order your execution is why Ned lost his head. Not his honor or pride or something. Just trying to keep frame as where the blame goes. That weird vibe of blaming him for his own assassination/murder/whatever is pretty suspicious!
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Jun 3, 2014 05:01
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Vehementi posted:Sure, just saying, being coerced into a false confession via threats of murder against your family by a conspiracy of murderers & torturers and then having an obviously crazy and evil psychopath order your execution is why Ned lost his head. Not his honor or pride or something. To be fair, as far as Joffrey goes, of all the people he killed, Ned is the only one who actually was, effectively, trying to kill him (yeah I know he wanted to warn Cersei to run away, but that would still have been a grim fate). Hell, Joffrey was gonna be killed due to a crime he had nothing to do with. And Ned was okay with that (at least okay enough to have it be a possible outcome), so why should Joffrey not kill him? I don't think anyone exclusively or even primarily blames Ned, but to act like his pride and honor didn't lead him to his fate is a bit ridiculous. He knew who he was up against, and if he didn't, he should have. gently caress, Littlefinger said to his face not to trust him. Then what did Ned do? Vehementi posted:No those people both died because they were assassinated by severely evil people. Renly was straight up guilty of treason. The shadow assassin was sketchy, because he had a right to a trial, and since he was Stannis's brother, it should have been handled differently, but his death was very much the direct expected consequence of his pride. Jerusalem posted:The Targs ruled because they were "dragons" and she's the mother of dragons therefore by Targ rules she the rightful ruler of Westeros! Oh, absolutely, might is right is fine. But then it's not about her birthright as princess, it's about having a big loving army (and dragons, which are tied to her blood, but she didn't get from her recent family). And for might to make her Queen of Westeros, she'd have to actually go there and try to take it! Alberto Basalm posted:The Greyjoys actually mention the medieval Right of Conquest in season 2 - which is exactly this idea. That the strongest ruler has the divine right to rule. If the Greyjoys brought it up, it's probably wrong. Bobo the Red fucked around with this message at 05:17 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 05:09
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So how does Tyrion get out of the execution? His execution is the obvious thing so I think it's safe to assume its not going to happen right? Or maybe its a double GRMM fake-out?
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Jun 3, 2014 05:11
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Alberto Basalm posted:The Greyjoys actually mention the medieval Right of Conquest in season 2 - which is exactly this idea. That the strongest ruler has the divine right to rule. In other words, anyone who ends up ruling has the divine right to rule. The concept of circular argument hasn't been invented in this world yet. JibbaJabbaJimmy posted:So how does Tyrion get out of the execution? His execution is the obvious thing so I think it's safe to assume its not going to happen right? Or maybe its a double GRMM fake-out? Hot Pie is called in to cater the event, and Jaime has him make a bread version of Tyrion to take his place at the chopping block. Cersei's too dumb to notice. All the poor in Gin Alley get fed for a day. BubbleGoose fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 05:20
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IncendiaC posted:It wouldn't be the first ironic death in the series. Don't forget that Robert Baratheon, a great warrior who killed Rhaegar (who was also a badass) and toppled the 300 year old Targaryen regime was gored to death by a pig. This is what I think of when I see King Rob 
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Jun 3, 2014 05:23
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Vehementi posted:Sure, just saying, being coerced into a false confession via threats of murder against your family by a conspiracy of murderers & torturers and then having an obviously crazy and evil psychopath order your execution is why Ned lost his head. Not his honor or pride or something. That's overly simplistic. It isn't entirely his fault, but to expect everyone to abide by his code of honor and do the right thing was ridiculous. Ned's own faults lead to his demise. He refused to compromise his own principles in order to get the things he needed to do, done. He was warned time and time again that what he was doing was reckless, even dangerous, but he refused to compromise his principles. And time and time again, it has been shown if you refuse to change your emotions or principles, there are plenty of people who will and you will lose. This doesn't mean you have to become a total monster, but you have to have a lot of flexibility. If you don't, others will break you. And happily too. Being uncompromising in your principles, usually a sign of the hero, is a huge detriment in GoT. This isn't some big secret, it's big boy rules. If you don't want to be a chameleon, you'd drat well better be sure you know what the gently caress you're doing or you more than likely will end up dead.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:23
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JibbaJabbaJimmy posted:So how does Tyrion get out of the execution? His execution is the obvious thing so I think it's safe to assume its not going to happen right? Or maybe its a double GRMM fake-out? At this point I fully expect Tyrion to die along with Jon Snow, Jamie, Brienne, Pod, Bronn, The Hound and anyone else I liked on this show.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:24
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fletcher posted:We saw them bring somebody back to life already though Several times, in fact.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:24
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No More Heroes posted:At this point I fully expect Tyrion to die along with Jon Snow, Jamie, Brienne, Pod, Bronn, The Hound and anyone else I liked on this show. If what people are saying about Hubris = Death in Game of Thrones, Pod is destine to become the next King of Westeros. Dude has zero ego.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:26
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BubbleGoose posted:In other words, anyone who ends up ruling has the divine right to rule. The concept of circular argument hasn't been invented in this world yet. A lot of might and a little modest claim to the throne by very, very, very thin blood was what determined rulers in our Middle Ages, why not theirs?
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Jun 3, 2014 05:28
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Blazing Ownager posted:If what people are saying about Hubris = Death in Game of Thrones, Pod is destine to become the next King of Westeros. Dude has zero ego. That makes Hodor the embodiment of ego since all he knows is 'Hodor'.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:30
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Dapper Dan posted:That's overly simplistic. It isn't entirely his fault, but to expect everyone to abide by his code of honor and do the right thing was ridiculous. Ned's own faults lead to his demise. He refused to compromise his own principles in order to get the things he needed to do, done. He was warned time and time again that what he was doing was reckless, even dangerous, but he refused to compromise his principles. And time and time again, it has been shown if you refuse to change your emotions or principles, there are plenty of people who will and you will lose. The harsh reality is that amoral murderers gonna git you. Got it. The things he was doing were reckless because amoral murderers with the power to murder him and get away with it were going to git him. But where does this tie back into his being murdered being his fault, any more than every choice / event that happened prior to his death "leading up to his death" in the trivial sense? Vehementi fucked around with this message at 05:33 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 05:31
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Bobo the Red posted:She has no right to the Westeros throne, because the family that theoretically gave her that right also made it boys-only On the offchance it has any show relevance, after the Dance of Dragons, the official Targaryen policy was that women could only inherit if no male heir lived-not just brothers but uncles and cousins were considered. So in Dany's case she is the legitimate heir to the Mad King.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:34
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the kawaiiest posted:From GRRM's own mouth: quote:It has joy Where's this part? I must have missed it.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:38
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Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 05:57 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 05:45
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the posted:Where's this part? I must have missed it.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:46
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the posted:Where's this part? I must have missed it. The purple wedding was pretty loving joyous.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:47
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monster on a stick posted:The purple wedding was pretty loving joyous. The scale seems pretty heavily weighted in the other direction, though, innit?
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Jun 3, 2014 05:50
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Vehementi posted:The harsh reality is that amoral murderers gonna git you. Got it. The things he was doing were reckless because amoral murderers with the power to murder him and get away with it were going to git him. But where does this tie back into his being murdered being his fault, any more than every choice / event that happened prior to his death "leading up to his death" in the trivial sense? Because he knew he was walking into a literal den of amoral murderers who would just as soon cut his throat as shake his hand and he operated like it was business as usual in the North? Because he simply refused to alter his approach despite the clearly dangerous situation? I'm sorry, but what he did was comparable to wearing meat around his neck and stepping into a Lion's cage and expecting not to get mauled because he's been friendly with it. If you don't want to compromise your personal ethics, fine. But don't be surprised when the amoral murders who have no such compunctions do what comes natural. the posted:Where's this part? I must have missed it. After the ice lich apocalypse there is joy because there's no one left to be murdered and that is happy times.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:52
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Lumberjack Bonanza posted:Seriously, let's break this poo poo down Death: Came at the king, did not miss.  The Seven seriously are the worst fictional gods since L. Ron Hubbard though, for real. If they ever do anything in-show I will be incredibly shocked.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:53
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the posted:Where's this part? I must have missed it. Arya got her sword back, Hot Pie showed up safe, Davos saved Gendry and then didn't get executed for it, Sansa escaped Kings Landing, Sansa is happy seeing the snow, Jon beat the mutineers, Sam killed a White Walker, Dany freed slaves, Ramsay became a Bolton.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:53
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If Podrick Payne isn't King by series end this whole show can get hosed. His success and Dany's failure are literally the only things I'm sticking around to see.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:54
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Super Ninja Fish posted:Arya got her sword back, Hot Pie showed up safe, Davos saved Gendry and then didn't get executed for it, Sansa escaped Kings Landing, Sansa is happy seeing the snow, Jon beat the mutineers, Sam killed a White Walker, Dany freed slaves, Ramsay became a Bolton. I like how a lot of these are "Such and such didn't die."
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Jun 3, 2014 05:55
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Ned was not the cause of his own death. Neither were the Lannisters. Go back and watch a lot of Season 1's details. Ned got manipulated by Littlefinger to his death. Remember that Ned's whole motivation was to uncover a secret Lannister plot to take the throne. The seed was planted by Littlefinger in dialogue. Then it became impossible to ignore with Lysa's letter to Cat. It accused them of poisoning the previous Hand and of trying to put an incest pure-blood Lannister in the line of succession, a letter that was prepared by Littlefinger who himself was the poisoner. Littlefinger gloats over his knowledge of the incest to the Queen. He immediately becomes aware of when Ned follows his lead to the "boring book" about ancestry. Jamie and Cersei had no such plans about the throne after all, they turn out to be waay too incompetent and disorganized for that. They were just trying to keep Joffrey safe from being found out. Then the attempted assassination on Bran, done with Littlefinger's knife and blamed by Littlefinger on the Lannisters as a "cover up" of some greater plot. When John Arryn's squire is killed under suspicious circumstances, the Lannisters again catch the blame for drawing the straws as if to cover something up, but there was nothing *for* them to cover up about Jon Arryn because the poison was not theirs. All this time Cersei and Jamie have no idea why Ned has such a giant bug up his rear end for them. They assume he's trying to play the game with them, and the queen calls him out on it in a chat where she interrogates what his goal even is in King's Landing and where they exchange threats, "I've been trained to kill my enemies," "So have I". In that conversation she realizes that he's being played, but by whom? They never knew that Ned was just perfectly reasonably acting on planted clues about an eminent danger to his and Robert's life. So they were left to conclude that he was on the attack and ambitious. Oh yeah and let's not forget the whole  BETRAYAL AT KNIFEPOINT after personally convincing him to stand up to Joffrey and the Queen when they tried to claim the throne, and subsequently being the guy who arrested him. Dude wanted Ned dead bad.
Happy Thread fucked around with this message at 06:19 on Jun 3, 2014 |
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Jun 3, 2014 05:57
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precision posted:Death: Came at the king, did not miss.
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Jun 3, 2014 05:57
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JibbaJabbaJimmy posted:So how does Tyrion get out of the execution? His execution is the obvious thing so I think it's safe to assume its not going to happen right? Or maybe its a double GRMM fake-out? He either dies or Jamie saves him somehow, I really can't see any other outcome. He has no other friends left in King's Landing. On the other hand, will Tywin really extinguish his line by killing Tyrion and pissing off Jamie? Maybe the deal with Jamie leaving the Kingsguard in exchange for mercy could still be on but that doesn't seem likely after Tywin publicly announced Tyrion's execution.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:01
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Can someone always avoid a death sentence by going to the wall?
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Jun 3, 2014 06:06
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ironlung posted:He either dies or Jamie saves him somehow, I really can't see any other outcome. He has no other friends left in King's Landing. On the other hand, will Tywin really extinguish his line by killing Tyrion and pissing off Jamie? Maybe the deal with Jamie leaving the Kingsguard in exchange for mercy could still be on but that doesn't seem likely after Tywin publicly announced Tyrion's execution. Something something King's pardon something mercy something. Or just random poo poo will happen and disrupt everything!
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Jun 3, 2014 06:07
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ironlung posted:but that doesn't seem likely after Tywin publicly announced Tyrion's execution. Nah it'd be easy. He could just do like Theon already did with the Stark boys. A fake out. I'm still pissed off from that "sike" moment in the story. In fact, I'm really sure now that that will happen.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:07
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Littlefinger will somehow help Tyrion escape because of course he will. He's Emperor goddamn Palpatine.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:17
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Agreed posted:A lot of might and a little modest claim to the throne by very, very, very thin blood was what determined rulers in our Middle Ages, why not theirs? Not to mention it's not like characters aren't aware of how much bullshit they are shoveling. The smarter characters already see through it, be it for good or evil; Littlefinger even makes a large speech that points out exactly this.
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Jun 3, 2014 06:17
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