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Here's a thought: how about everyone step back and let a dude more infinitely funny, insightful, and truly compassionate for social injustices than y'all ever will be finish his story before churning out more outraged, mealy-mouthed thinkpieces, the only thing the internet needs less than the end of net neutrality.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 14:28 |
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:26 |
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TheRationalRedditor posted:Here's a thought: how about everyone step back and let a dude more infinitely funny, insightful, and truly compassionate for social injustices than y'all ever will be finish his story before churning out more outraged, mealy-mouthed thinkpieces, the only thing the internet needs less than the end of net neutrality. I don't think this thread has gotten very bad yet, how about you not backseat moderate and let people chat about a show. The "fat girl" talk was much worse.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 14:36 |
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That ending is why I'm excited to watch the show every week. You never know what you're going to get!
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 15:09 |
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TheRationalRedditor posted:Here's a thought: how about everyone step back and let a dude more infinitely funny, insightful, and truly compassionate for social injustices than y'all ever will be finish his story before churning out more outraged, mealy-mouthed thinkpieces, the only thing the internet needs less than the end of net neutrality.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 15:12 |
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No Wave posted:So what compelled you to click over and navigate to this thread, the one place online where you might go to talk about this show before it's over? Maybe you're an idiot? Instead of reflexively launching the kneejerk outrage brigade, one might focus on how that intentionally disturbing final scene was a compressed dark mirror of Louie's relationship with Amia. That aggressive physical struggle was edited to nearly match his wordless seduction of Amia shot for shot. Except this time he's selfishly, boorishly projecting the desire onto his longtime friend who is very much capable of the verbal communication as Amia wasn't. Louie was idealizing and romanticizing the ended relationship where he didn't need to concern himself with the "hassle" of reciprocal communication, because if he doesn't have to talk to a partner like Janet then he doesn't have to concern himself with getting tripped up in his own jumbled words when his actions are questioned. Foisting this kind of madness onto Pamela was exactly as deranged as it seemed, and there's still two more episodes in the arc to go.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 17:26 |
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TheRationalRedditor posted:This thread does not consist solely of hysterical users wringing their sallow little hands shrieking "LOUIE WAS A RAPE FAN ALL ALONG! TOTAL MISSTEP!!", so I'm come here for the occasional thoughtful post by anyone less intolerably wretched, goon. People have primarily been saying that it's extremely unpleasant to watch. And it is. I'd only subject myself (or someone else) to watching something that unpleasant if I really felt I'd learn something from it, but in this case the character is so un-identifiable that there's little to learn. I'll take unpleasantness if it's an indictment of some sort that needs to be heard, but I can't possibly imagine that anyone watching thought that scene was about them. Louis CK is enormously skilled at getting people to identify with his perspective. This was an utter failure, and it literally caused disgust to watch it. Why would I want to feel disgust if I'm learning nothing from the experience? No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:41 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 17:37 |
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Anyone outraged over the scene should probably remember that the show has been strictly surreal since season 3.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 17:41 |
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precision posted:Anyone outraged over the scene should probably remember that the show has been strictly surreal since season 3. The two biggest criticisms made when rape is on TV generally involve claims that the show either normalized rape or trivialized it. In this case, it was a hugely uncomfortable directly-addressed deal and the rape didn't happen, so it's avoided both of those things. No Wave fucked around with this message at 17:45 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 17:43 |
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Tortuga posted:Not sure how they thought they could make such a complicated scene easier for readers to digest by breaking it down into gif form. Actually just makes it more silly if anything. This is some weird thing that blogs are doing now and I don't know why the gently caress. Look at this article: http://www.buzzfeed.com/jaimieetkin/sophie-turner-maisie-williams-best-friend-game It's a who-gives-a-gently caress-story anyway, but whoever decided that was the best way to present it should be fired.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:02 |
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TheRationalRedditor posted:Here's a thought: how about everyone step back and let a dude more infinitely funny, insightful, and truly compassionate for social injustices than y'all ever will be finish his story before churning out more outraged, mealy-mouthed thinkpieces, the only thing the internet needs less than the end of net neutrality. Yeah guys, just be patient and wait for him to explain his totally disgusting, out of character, right from left field rape scene for poo poo's sake, what's wrong with you guys. No Wave posted:The two biggest criticisms made when rape is on TV generally involve claims that the show either normalized rape or trivialized it. The scene ended with him forcing Pamela to kiss him, and then Louie curling his hand into a fist and hissing out a "yesssssss" when it was over. I think its safe to say it was normalized and trivialized. I know you are saying there is no outrage here, but for the record, I'm outraged. [edit] one of the reasons I'm outraged is because a huge chunk of his audience is Reddit neckbeards, and if you think they are going to take away any feminist message or other such nuances from that scene, you're dead wrong. Jake Armitage fucked around with this message at 18:30 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:25 |
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precision posted:Anyone outraged over the scene should probably remember that the show has been strictly surreal since season 3. I think this is the problem with the scene. I think in Louie's mind he was writing a scene that was a surreal and comically exaggerated as most of the stuff in the show. The problem is that many viewers have recognized the scene as something that actually happens. It's not a comic exaggeration to the people who have experienced similar situations. I know that when we watched it, my husband was laughing at the scene, not because he thinks rape is funny, but because to him it was that surreal exaggeration that characterizes the show and I was sitting there in abject horror because it felt all too real to me. I think that the intentions for this scene were good and I think I understand what it was going for, especially in light of what has come before it through the season. I just think maybe they miscalculated how actually real this would be to a lot of the people watching. I am certainly not "outraged" by it, but it was extremely uncomfortable for me to watch and, like some other people, I'm not sure how I'm supposed to feel any sort of sympathy for this main character any more. He's crossed beyond a line to me and I'm not sure how you bring him back. I'm definitely willing to watch the story play out, because I think this show is amazing in a lot of ways, but I think they possibly took it a step too dark for a comedy show.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:28 |
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Jake Armitage posted:The scene ended with him forcing Pamela to kiss him, and then Louie curling his hand into a fist and hissing out a "yesssssss" when it was over. I think its safe to say it was normalized and trivialized. No Wave fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:31 |
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Jake Armitage posted:Yeah guys, just be patient and wait for him to explain his totally disgusting, out of character, right from left field rape scene for poo poo's sake, what's wrong with you guys. It wasn't out of left field at all considering it was almost exactly the same as the Amia sex scene.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:31 |
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And it's the result of Louie channeling the negative emotions of Amia leaving onto her. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:38 |
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No Wave posted:I challenge you to find any group of people that is writing that that was something for Louie to be proud of. And talking about this scene specifically. Here you go quote:He was trying to respect Pamela's wishes, he just got her wishes all wrong. The good thing is that Pamela sees Louie as a good and stupid guy and seemed understanding of the situation, however hosed up it was. Hey just a little misunderstanding, is all. quote:Ugh, if he was holding the door closed on someone for any other reason no one would give a poo poo. That's a thing people do when they're upset and want to talk. This sentiment is repeated several times by several posters in that thread. "People stop people from leaving for all sorts of reasons. This time it happened to be to force her to have sex with him, I don't see what you guys are getting so worked up about". quote:Pamela being flirtatious in her own special way, using overly sexual language with her male friend she KNOWS would love to have sex with her, this all instills the idea in Louie's head that 'maybe', or that she is there for the taking, he just has to go for it. I believe that's what he did here. Hey she was asking for it right guys? quote:Then when he was trying to kiss her over by the door, he was more or less explaining to her that he was showing his assertiveness because she had said she wanted "the thing" previously. Maybe no one is directly saying that he should be proud, but there are a lot of comments in there about Louie finally learning to be aggressive and take what's his. This is the epitome of the Reddit male's view of women, and in the wake of the Elliot Roger thing, you have to agree there are a lot of guys out there who are going to view that scene very different than you or I. Jake Armitage fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:50 |
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When I first saw the scene, I was simply shocked. But when you let it sit with you and you look back throughout the season, it's wasn't out of nowhere. It was very real, this poo poo does happen, women do get raped by their male friends. And unlike a rape scene where a woman is assaulted by some random monster, Louie took his time building a situation where it can occur by this seemingly normalish guy to his friend. To paraphrase the stand-up bit beforehand. "You're only 28 and you think you're already locked in for heaven?" Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 19:03 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:53 |
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Jake Armitage posted:Yeah guys, just be patient and wait for him to explain his totally disgusting, out of character, right from left field rape scene for poo poo's sake, what's wrong with you guys. You're out of your mind and objectively bad at understanding television. To be fair, maybe shows with the iq of True Blood are your normal viewing experience. Please remember that Louis CK not only acts in this show, he also writes the show. This includes everyone's dialogue -- they're actually reading lines he wrote, not just making stuff up! Pamela running, terrified and frantic, through the apartment, talking about how he was acting like a rapist? Louis CK literally wrote that in the script! The oddly contrasting feminist-tinged stand up bit immediately preceeding that scene, which seems to diametrically oppose that scene tonally? Also written by CK and edited (again by Louis CK) to give it just that position in the show, where it could achieve maximum tonal dissonance from what follows. Literally the only person in the entire world who thinks that creepy scene was meant to be celebratory is you, which says far more about your personal worldview and issues than it does about Louis CK's. The 'why' of the scene is debatable. The 'what', isn't.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:56 |
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"There’s some episodes that are just like, let's really get some basic laughs with some of these. It was fun to go back to that. And then there's other stories that, it's just gonna piss you off. I have a stomachache about [one episode in particular]."
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 18:59 |
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Jake Armitage posted:Here you go
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:03 |
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The surreal bits in the show are usually (always?) either exaggerations of what is going on to show us Louie's mindspace, or gags to make us chuckle. That scene wasn't a gag, and Louie definitely wasn't thinking of himself as the creepy pathetic monster he was being right then and there. He was trying to be assertive and came off as pathetic and whiney, where the only real way he was dominating that situation was with being physically stronger than she was.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:08 |
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Mutation posted:And it's the result of Louie channeling the negative emotions of Amia leaving onto her. This, and he was operating under the false assumption that everybody is exactly the same and handles interpersonal relationships the same. The moves he made on Amia worked because Amia felt the same about Louie as he did about her (which is confirmed in the restaurant scene). He thought that he could pull the same thing on Pamela and she'd "come around", but the key thing is that Pamela is not Amia. Louie is trying to make her into an Amia surrogate and it's not working, so him forcing himself onto her was really creepy and wrong.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:10 |
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Jake Armitage posted:I know you are saying there is no outrage here, but for the record, I'm outraged. Jesus christ it's a television show
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:18 |
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I definitely wouldn't call that scene out of left field. The main theme of this season so far is how men (Louie, specifically in this case) generally can't communicate with women and have no idea what effect they're having on them. Put the scene with Pamela in the context of Louie trying to gently wake Amia up during their first meeting, and ending up getting chased out of her apartment while she panics and screams at him. Or when he thought he was being polite by telling Vanessa that she wasn't fat, only to accidentally touch a nerve and have her vent a ton of frustration at him instead. I mean, last night's stand-up routine about domestic violence happened only a handful of episodes after Louie accidentally punched a woman in the face and severely injured her, all because he wasn't able to communicate with her that he didn't want to be tickled. When you look at it that way, the whole season so far has been building up to what happened with Pamela. He could have been open about how he was feeling about Pamela in the wake of Amia leaving, but instead he chose (again) to not communicate properly, and it resulted (again) in an uncomfortable situation that Louie's character should have been able to avoid. The point, I think, isn't that Louie is just a creepy guy, or just misunderstood, or anything like that. If the season has a thesis statement so far, it's that people need to be careful of how they affect the people around them, specifically in the context of men interacting with women. I think that's a very relevant, important message to present in this format, and I don't think topics like these should be avoided just because the less perceptive portions of the audience won't understand.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:34 |
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Lowly posted:I think this is the problem with the scene. I think in Louie's mind he was writing a scene that was a surreal and comically exaggerated as most of the stuff in the show. The problem is that many viewers have recognized the scene as something that actually happens. It's not a comic exaggeration to the people who have experienced similar situations. For the record, I've been raped and I'm not outraged or horrified. I just thought it was weird. e: Mutation posted:The surreal bits in the show are usually (always?) either exaggerations of what is going on to show us Louie's mindspace, or gags to make us chuckle. The Tonight Show stuff with David Lynch wasn't in Louie's mind. The Miami adventure wasn't either. Lots of things on the show are surreal. I think the scene was definitely a gag, and just because he didn't realize he was being a poo poo during it doesn't mean anything. There are lots of times in the show where Louie is a poo poo and doesn't realize it in the moment. That's like, one of the show's central themes! precision fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:36 |
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A Boring Story posted:I definitely wouldn't call that scene out of left field. The main theme of this season so far is how men (Louie, specifically in this case) generally can't communicate with women and have no idea what effect they're having on them. Put the scene with Pamela in the context of Louie trying to gently wake Amia up during their first meeting, and ending up getting chased out of her apartment while she panics and screams at him. Or when he thought he was being polite by telling Vanessa that she wasn't fat, only to accidentally touch a nerve and have her vent a ton of frustration at him instead. I mean, last night's stand-up routine about domestic violence happened only a handful of episodes after Louie accidentally punched a woman in the face and severely injured her, all because he wasn't able to communicate with her that he didn't want to be tickled. precision posted:I think the scene was definitely a gag, and just because he didn't realize he was being a poo poo during it doesn't mean anything. There are lots of times in the show where Louie is a poo poo and doesn't realize it in the moment. That's like, one of the show's central themes!
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:43 |
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A Boring Story posted:When you look at it that way, the whole season so far has been building up to what happened with Pamela. He could have been open about how he was feeling about Pamela in the wake of Amia leaving, but instead he chose (again) to not communicate properly, and it resulted (again) in an uncomfortable situation that Louie's character should have been able to avoid. The point, I think, isn't that Louie is just a creepy guy, or just misunderstood, or anything like that. If the season has a thesis statement so far, it's that people need to be careful of how they affect the people around them, specifically in the context of men interacting with women. I think that's a very relevant, important message to present in this format, and I don't think topics like these should be avoided just because the less perceptive portions of the audience won't understand. Not taking issue with your post, just the message.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 19:47 |
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Lookie here, someone put together a video that translated all of the Hungarian.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 20:15 |
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EatinCake posted:Lookie here, someone put together a video that translated all of the Hungarian. No Wave posted:It's such an odd time for this message because we have never been more self-conscious. Honestly, it's excruciating. Automata 10 Pack fucked around with this message at 21:05 on Jun 4, 2014 |
# ? Jun 4, 2014 21:02 |
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Mutation posted:Got something to get off your chest about SJWs? He doesn't need to think before he acts - he needs to feel before he acts.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 21:38 |
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The Hungarian girlfriend reminded me of an episode of Coupling (BBC version), where one of the characters met up with a girl who shared no common language with him. The flip side was half way through the episode, they redid the first 15 minutes but with the girl speaking English and the normal characters speaking gibberish.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 21:46 |
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EL BROMANCE posted:The Hungarian girlfriend reminded me of an episode of Coupling (BBC version), where one of the characters met up with a girl who shared no common language with him. The flip side was half way through the episode, they redid the first 15 minutes but with the girl speaking English and the normal characters speaking gibberish. This sounds amazing.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 22:04 |
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Louie is promoting rape culture. Let's boycott FX.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 23:32 |
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regulargonzalez posted:Please remember that Louis CK not only acts in this show, he also writes the show. This includes everyone's dialogue -- they're actually reading lines he wrote, not just making stuff up! Pamela running, terrified and frantic, through the apartment, talking about how he was acting like a rapist? Louis CK literally wrote that in the script! Spot on, I don't understand why this is so hard for people to grasp. Not just forums commenters, but professional TV critics, people whose whole job is to watch, understand, and write about TV, can't seem to crack this.
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# ? Jun 4, 2014 23:44 |
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Long tome lurker, and feel compelled to chime in because this episode deeply affected me. First let me just say, this is a heavy subject, so I think it is okay if many of us come at this from different angles with a good deal of passion because we have strong feelings about it. So I am not trying to take away anyone else's impression of the scene or episode by giving mine here. I am a man and this had a big impact on me as a viewer and really got me thinking sbout some of my assumptions. So my initial reaction to the scene was extreme discomfort, followed by failed attempts to rationalize the scene or dismiss it as me misreading what was going on. I found myself not wanting to see it as rape because I like the character of Louie and have been sympathetic with him for four seasons. But that look on Pamela's face, the way the scene just kept getting more and more intense and the use of the word rape, just made it undeniable. Louie was trying to rape pamela. That made me very uneasy, both because it was just unpleasant to watch and also because I had been trying to find some justification or excuse when the scene first occured, and I think this last bit was what Louis CK the writer was going for with the episode. Louie is a likeable guy, he would never rape someone, yet he did. And there have been hints about it all season long. First you had the episode where he punched the model for tickling him and sent her to the hospital. Then you had that sex scene with Amia, which felt like he was being too aggressive and made me a bit uneasy even though i dismissed it because ultimately Amia reciprocated. Then you had this scene. The framing of the scene struck me as important because I think the episode was also critiquing guys who talk the talk of feminism but dont internalize it and still treat women poorly in their regular lives. He spent all night on stage talking about how he got women's rights, how they were oppressed, how men abuse them, then he still goes home and tries to rape Pamela because he feels entitled to her love. I also think was a depicting of rape that is much closer to life than other shows (which usually make racists some other creepy character that is just on the show to commit the crime). I am sure everyone's life experience is different here, but the women I do know who have been victims of rape or attempted rape, were usually attacked by men they trusted, "nice guys" who were likeable and viewed as friends. That they had the stomach to take a character we have identified with over four seasons and make him the rapist I think really drove the issue home (at least for me). I think too often guys are willing to look the other way, or willfully misread signs, when one of their buddies is involved with something like this. So the episode for me, was about bringing that to the attention of men. All that said, I have no idea how they move forward from here. Nw that Louie has done this, can we really go back to the way things were? I am very curious how things will pan out in Pamela Part 2. Clark Kent fucked around with this message at 00:23 on Jun 5, 2014 |
# ? Jun 5, 2014 00:06 |
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precision posted:For the record, I've been raped and I'm not outraged or horrified. I just thought it was weird.
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# ? Jun 5, 2014 00:35 |
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The rape scene was really funny. Great performances from both the actors, although Pamela was choking back a laugh at one point.
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# ? Jun 5, 2014 00:42 |
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regulargonzalez posted:Don't you think that was the point? Do you think Louis CK intended that scene to be something the audience was rooting for? Just because I felt it was in bad taste and didn't post a full critique doesn't mean I didn't comprehend the message. Please, it could hardly have been more heavy-handed. We last see Louie being a heroic male, carrying his small children across a raging, flooded street, and also rescuing his helpless wife. Also, we see him as a half of a loving relationship so beautiful it makes a completel stranger cry. After that, we hear a long piece about the state of women's rights in America and the prevalence of domestic violence, and also hear the point that when you're young you still have plenty of life left in which you might sin and not be "on lock" for heaven. Louie sets himself up as brave, loving, and likable, and the obvious commentary to make on the rape scene is that not all rapists are terrible men, but can be normal, usually well-meaning guys. I still found it in bad taste. I sit down to Louie each week for some laughs, some great surreal conversations and images, and a Curb Your Enthusiasm-esque desire to root for the bumbling loser because deep down I love him. I am not interested in Louie delivering this heavy social commentary, especially when it comes at a noticeable (for me) absence of laughs. The rape scene didn't bother me because it depicted rape. The recent rape scene in Game of Thrones, to compare, didn't bother me. You could argue about the necessity of showing it, but it fit the characters involved, and the general mood of the show.
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# ? Jun 5, 2014 00:54 |
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Tokelau All Star posted:Spot on, I don't understand why this is so hard for people to grasp. Not just forums commenters, but professional TV critics, people whose whole job is to watch, understand, and write about TV, can't seem to crack this.
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# ? Jun 5, 2014 02:45 |
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regulargonzalez posted:Don't you think that was the point? Do you think Louis CK intended that scene to be something the audience was rooting for? This. I wasn't one bit disturbed by the "rape" scene. It's Louie and Pamela. They know each other well enough that this shouldn't destroy their relationship. She's a vacillating and conniving bitch, and he's a clumsy genius. I won't go so far as to say that she "deserved" it, but I understand it. He was frustrated and full of all kinds of emotions, and she was being purposefully ambiguous (read: bitch). He took a chance. Her joking around made it like yellow caution lights, instead of red stop lights. Or maybe I'm just so infatuated with Louis CK I can't find any fault in his artistic expressions. I dunno. But I'm surprised at all the backlash here. I didn't find a thing wrong with it, all things considering. I did tear up at his commitment to save his family, even in the worst of the storm. It was completely irrational for him to even be outside, let alone rent a car and drive across town. The crazy dog guy was one example of evidence of the absurdity of him doing that. But he wouldn't have even imagined not going after them. He loves them much more than he cares for his own safety. "I thought we were going to die, but we didn't!" God I love this show.
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# ? Jun 5, 2014 03:06 |
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# ? Apr 29, 2024 16:26 |
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whatshesaid posted:and she was being purposefully ambiguous (read: bitch). He took a chance. Her joking around made it like yellow caution lights, instead of red stop lights. There was nothing ambiguous about Pamela's signs to Louie inside his apartment. If those are "yellow lights" to you, I don't even know what to say. You are part of the problem. Those were loud, clear, red light, stop immediately signs.
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# ? Jun 5, 2014 03:11 |