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IronicDongz posted:I'm a WW defender but I don't think I'd call its overworld better than, well, anything. Why not? There was a ton of stuff to do. Sailing challenges rewarded by rupees, enemy outposts, giant squid battles, little islands with puzzles. People are just impatient and get pissed because they can't get from one major island to another in 2 minutes. And at least it was fun to look at, as opposed to Twilight Princess's.
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Jun 19, 2014 15:15
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I don't think it's a perfect overworld, and lots of the little islands were barren with just a chest, much like the sky in Skyloft, but I think that most of the important islands, and even some of the non-important ones were pretty well-designed. And unlike the sky in Skyloft, instead of having a weird split between the important stuff on the ground and the unimportant stuff in the sky, you just sailed to an island and arrived there. It felt more like one world rather than 4 or 5 with a really bad interactive level select menu. MM and TP's overworld always felt similar to that, like it was a level select menu. Actually, even:  "Forest over here, ice over there, volcano thataway, there's the desert, and there's the central castle town place!" MM's overworld was still excellently designed with plenty of stuff to do, so it gets a pass from me, but I liked that WW just had stuff all over and there wasn't any real transition point.
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Jun 19, 2014 15:42
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Wind Waker's ocean was really cool, but I have to admit that the HD version making use of the Swift Sail improved it enough to make it obvious that it really was a little too big.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:08
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If we're playing the overworld game then I tip my hat to WW HD. The WW overworld is spectacular, but too big. When it's reduced in size effectively, it's dense but you still get down time of sailing and taking in the atmosphere. I can't stand Majora's Mask's overworld because you never have time to take everything in. Even if the day limit isn't a burden, it's not to me, it means that you do just have to rush everywhere to get stuff done during a cycle. MM loses something because of that.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:14
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Skyward Swords overworld would own if there weren't loading times.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:17
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Yorkshire Tea posted:If we're playing the overworld game then I tip my hat to WW HD. The WW overworld is spectacular, but too big. When it's reduced in size effectively, it's dense but you still get down time of sailing and taking in the atmosphere. See this is a common complaint I see about Majora's Mask but it really makes no sense to me. If you play the song of slow time you have soooo much time to get poo poo done. Like, several hours of gameplay before you might have to reset. You really shouldn't need to rush to do anything unless, say, you decide you want to go from your first entrance into a zone to the end of the zone's dungeon. And then you're imposing limits on yourself rather than the game really doing it. It's a touchy subject to me because one of my buddies who likes Zelda a lot absolutely refuses to give MM a fair shake because of the time limit.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:17
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I honestly have to spend so much time waiting for some of the timed events once Granny closes up her "skip two hours" shop that I've explored more of the Termina overworld than OoT's, and I played a lot of OoT.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:21
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Yorkshire Tea posted:I can't stand Majora's Mask's overworld because you never have time to take everything in. Even if the day limit isn't a burden, it's not to me, it means that you do just have to rush everywhere to get stuff done during a cycle. MM loses something because of that. That doesn't make sense to me cause you can rewind time whenever you want, so you literally have all the time in the world. Have you never spent a three day cycle accomplishing nothing? Just wandering around taking in the sights? Maybe playing some minigames or trying to find secrets? Or maybe you finished a dungeon a day early and don't wanna start the next area right away? You don't need to be making progress when you just wanna chill. It's like, a lot of people compare the game to Groundhog Day, and never seem to remember that Bill Murray dicked around accomplishing nothing for about half the movie.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:29
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PantsBandit posted:Why not? There was a ton of stuff to do. Sailing challenges rewarded by rupees, enemy outposts, giant squid battles, little islands with puzzles. People are just impatient and get pissed because they can't get from one major island to another in 2 minutes.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:38
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Bicyclops posted:Wind Waker's ocean was really cool, but I have to admit that the HD version making use of the Swift Sail improved it enough to make it obvious that it really was a little too big. Wind Waker's ocean was designed to mask the loading times of the gamecube, so it had technical reasons for being 'too big'. The alternative would be loading screens, which they didn't want in Zelda. On the WiiU that technical limitation doesn't exist, so they were free to make you faster, but they couldn't just go through and move all the islands and make it actually smaller. I guess they could, but... effort. Yorkshire Tea posted:I can't stand Majora's Mask's overworld because you never have time to take everything in. Even if the day limit isn't a burden, it's not to me, it means that you do just have to rush everywhere to get stuff done during a cycle. MM loses something because of that. I agree completely. I've been meaning to replay MM forever, but while its really cool, I was never as into it as lots of gamers are and I vastly prefer OOT's ability to just gently caress around. MM has even more side-quests and poo poo to do than OOT, but you're so limited on time you have to kinda start each day cycle with a "mission" in mind, or else you'll run out of time just short and have to do the whole quest chain over again. It was a really interesting and unique mechanic at the time, but you do lose something too.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:40
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Zaphod42 posted:Wind Waker's ocean was designed to mask the loading times of the gamecube, so it had technical reasons for being 'too big'. The alternative would be loading screens, which they didn't want in Zelda. On the WiiU that technical limitation doesn't exist, so they were free to make you faster, but they couldn't just go through and move all the islands and make it actually smaller. I guess they could, but... effort. I think I prefer what they did, which is to make you go twice as fast and not have to play the drat wind song all the time. It still makes you feel like you're exploring a vast ocean with tiny islands scattered throughout it, but you don't feel like you have to leave and make a sandwich while you're getting to Forest Haven (nor do you have to sail there nearly as often).
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Jun 19, 2014 16:42
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SatansBestBuddy posted:That doesn't make sense to me cause you can rewind time whenever you want, so you literally have all the time in the world. Have you never spent a three day cycle accomplishing nothing? Just wandering around taking in the sights? Maybe playing some minigames or trying to find secrets? Or maybe you finished a dungeon a day early and don't wanna start the next area right away? You don't need to be making progress when you just wanna chill. Rewinding makes you lose everything you had and kills all your progress. Beat the ice dungeon and now the place is melted? Too bad, beat it again! They cleverly designed the dungeons to all link together so that shortcuts would naturally open up as you completed more and more, but it still felt grating to be puzzling something out and have to reset. The sidequests being on a timeline and you playing Groundhog Day with all the characters is a lot of fun! But it can be annoying to have to balance that with "hm, do I really want to lose everything right now? Do I feel like dungeoning, or going through some more of sidequests". You had to plan things way ahead since what you did or didn't do on the first day basically told you what you were doing for the rest of the three-day cycle. It's not a bad game, and it's certainly grown on me with the amount of clever design they pulled off in a year, but as an idiot 8 year old kid the time mechanic was really scary and frustrating to me.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:48
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Suspicious Dish posted:Rewinding makes you lose everything you had and kills all your progress. Beat the ice dungeon and now the place is melted? Too bad, beat it again! They cleverly designed the dungeons to all link together so that shortcuts would naturally open up as you completed more and more, but it still felt grating to be puzzling something out and have to reset. Ok the dungeon thing is a legitimate concern and I'll admit I've been pissed at having to repeat the ice dungeon in particular but the whole losing everything is kind of a weird thing to complain about. Major items stay in your inventory, rupees can be deposited at the bank and miscellaneous items (arrows, bombs, etc) can be maxed out by spending 30 seconds in Termina Field.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:51
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Suspicious Dish posted:Rewinding makes you lose everything you had and kills all your progress. Beat the ice dungeon and now the place is melted? Too bad, beat it again! I mean, sort of. You have the owl statue shortcut and the light that brings you straight to the boss, so springtime in Goron land (which is the one everyone has to do a couple of times, because there's a lot required of you after you complete that dungeon) just means five minutes of doing the spike roll into the robot bull's rear end until he dies. It's annoying, but it's not actually re-doing the entire dungeon.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:52
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, sort of. You have the owl statue shortcut and the light that brings you straight to the boss, so springtime in Goron land (which is the one everyone has to do a couple of times, because there's a lot required of you after you complete that dungeon) just means five minutes of doing the spike roll into the robot bull's rear end until he dies. It's annoying, but it's not actually re-doing the entire dungeon. He's also one of the more fun bosses in a Zelda game so if you have to repeat one fight I don't mind it being that one.
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Jun 19, 2014 16:55
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Bicyclops posted:I mean, sort of. You have the owl statue shortcut and the light that brings you straight to the boss, so springtime in Goron land (which is the one everyone has to do a couple of times, because there's a lot required of you after you complete that dungeon) just means five minutes of doing the spike roll into the robot bull's rear end until he dies. It's annoying, but it's not actually re-doing the entire dungeon. Gonna be honest here, but it took me an embarrassingly long time to notice the light, because when I warped back to the ice place and found it was all frozen over, I just said "ugh, nope" and didn't go back into the dungeon. They could have telegraphed that better. Or designed it better (give you a song to melt the ice after you beat the dungeon, play it at any point.) PantsBandit posted:Major items stay in your inventory, rupees can be deposited at the bank and miscellaneous items (arrows, bombs, etc) can be maxed out by spending 30 seconds in Termina Field. Rupees can be deposited at the bank if you're at the bank. If you're in a dungeon, I don't think you can warp out unless you walk back to the entrance. And it's a tedium that shouldn't really exist. They could have handled it a lot better, I feel (by not trashing your items at all!)
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Jun 19, 2014 17:04
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I enjoy committing fraud on the Termina bank by way of time travel and it's not at all difficult to get out of a dungeon and return your rupees but there's really no reason for them to take away your arrows and bombs and all it does is make you turn into a Deku Scrub and zip around the bushes for 30 seconds. They should let you keep your arrows, bombs and stuff in bottles.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:08
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Suspicious Dish posted:Gonna be honest here, but it took me an embarrassingly long time to notice the light, because when I warped back to the ice place and found it was all frozen over, I just said "ugh, nope" and didn't go back into the dungeon. They could have telegraphed that better. Or designed it better (give you a song to melt the ice after you beat the dungeon, play it at any point.) I mean it just sounds to me like your complaints are pretty minor and really only apply when you're doing a dungeon, and even more specifically when you can't finish a dungeon before running out of time. I mean, sure, maybe certain things could have been implemented a little better. I just think the good far outweighs the bad in regards to the time system and you're not really wasting that much more time than you do flying around in SS or sailing in WW.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:09
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I gotta be honest: even though I never had problems with the MM time limit, I did feel somewhat annoyed by it. The time limit was never harsh enough to be serious, so it felt entirely unnecessary, more annoying than anything. It forced you to stick to a schedule, sometimes without really knowing the exact dates, so you waited around. A lot. You always had enough time. However, the general idea was incredible. Imagine a game with today's possibilities, using that idea! You could have an incredibly densely designed environment, and going back and doing it differently is a built-in function. What MM was really missing was more control over the flow of time. Not just to slow down time - you should've been able to rewind, and to skip ahead on your own. Maybe even "record" certain events, so that you're allowed to skip doing certain things over and over; for example, you trade in 1 day, and in exchange Goht is already beaten. We don't need a MM remake. We need a completely new game with the same philosophy: inherently weird, somewhat psychotic world, surprisingly melancholic stories everywhere, a central complex location, and total time control in a repeating day cycle. I heard the latest FF XIII sequel does somewhat MM mechanics; anybody know if it's any decent in that regard?
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Jun 19, 2014 17:22
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Is the Wii VC version of Majora's Mask good? Does it freeze or anything weird?
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Jun 19, 2014 17:23
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Spacebump posted:Is the Wii VC version of Majora's Mask good? Does it freeze or anything weird? I played the game 100% with no crashes or freezes, it worked much better than the GC release or the original.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:26
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Are people forgetting that you could skip forward in time on your own in MM by playing a song? And the bomber notebook, while not telling you exactly what was going to be happening, did show you when a character would have a unique event of some sort.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:28
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I hope a 3ds mm remake gets rid of losing expendable items. There's no reason falling though time makes you drop bombs but not the bomb bag. It doesn't make sense and while its not hard to get the items again. Its boring and annoying.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:28
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PantsBandit posted:He's also one of the more fun bosses in a Zelda game so if you have to repeat one fight I don't mind it being that one. IDK, not saying I didn't like MM, I totally did, but I found most of the bosses to be super boring.  I really liked that you could go back and re-challenge the bosses after you beat them, (especially once you have the fierce deity's mask  ) but they were all pretty meh and forgettable to me.Bull that you dodge and hit in butt, Fish that you poke as it jumps, Big ... worm thing that you gimmick fight with a mask, big dude that you swordfight with... I dunno, maybe its just because I haven't played it in forever, but I never found the MM bosses that great. Compare that with OOT's phantom ganon hiding in paintings, playing wac-a-mole with Volvagia, knocking Ghoma off the roof, reflecting twinrova's attacks, playing tennis with Ganondorf, freaking water monster that you have to hookshot... pretty cool poo poo. The biggest problem with MM for me, which is the nature of its sidequest based 3-day design, is that there's not enough dungeons and bosses overall. OOT you gotta do the 3 sacred stone dungeons each with a boss, then you have the major temples, each with a boss, and then the final ganon's castle. That's like... 14 bosses? MM there's... 4? 5? Bosses in the whole game? Weaaaak.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:34
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PantsBandit posted:Are people forgetting that you could skip forward in time on your own in MM by playing a song? Fair enough. However, if I remember correctly, you only skipped to the next dawn, which still dooms you to wait around when you're aiming for certain events. Why not skip ahead only an hour or two? Hell, why not make it "real time" skipping? See the entire world play out around you with ten times the speed, and stop once you hit the proper time frame. Skipped too far ahead? Well, rewind a bit, at the cost of erasing all your input on the world until then. You could even have some freaky time jumping puzzles that way, when you're travelling to the past in places you shouldn't even be able to reach then. Why yes, I want the ultimate time travel game.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:35
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Torquemadras posted:Fair enough. However, if I remember correctly, you only skipped to the next dawn, which still dooms you to wait around when you're aiming for certain events. Why not skip ahead only an hour or two? Hell, why not make it "real time" skipping? See the entire world play out around you with ten times the speed, and stop once you hit the proper time frame. Skipped too far ahead? Well, rewind a bit, at the cost of erasing all your input on the world until then. You could even have some freaky time jumping puzzles that way, when you're travelling to the past in places you shouldn't even be able to reach then. It was to the next 12 hour period, so playing it during the day would skip to that evening and vice versa, but I get what you mean. Re: the bosses, yeah they weren't great for the most part. I like Goht a lot though because it's different and I found it really fun to burn rubber as the goron.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:39
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You could use granny's stories to skip you ahead two hours during the day, but yeah, for stuff like waiting for Sakon to show up and rob the bomb lady, you sort of just had to twiddle your thumbs and gently caress around getting rupees or whatever. The only real problem with the 3 day thing is that it sort of locked you into a forty-five minute playing session if you were doing one of the dungeons, but to be fair it only does that a little more harshly than the other Zelda games. Yes, you can save and turn it off in the middle of a dungeon and try to pick up where you left off, but try doing that in the Forest Haven dungeon in Windwaker or the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time. Even A Link to the Past (and by extension LA and the Oracle games) is basically "do the entire dungeon over again" if you stop in the middle. It's at worst a minor annoyance.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:43
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Yeah, none of my annoyances are major and completely mean the game is worthless, but it's a lot of small annoyances that all add up leave me feeling irritated if I didn't plan properly and now have to do everything over again. And in a game series that's meant encourage exploration and play, the feeling of having to plan everything perfectly can be extremely frustrating. And also super rewarding! Just ask Bill Murray.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:46
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Majoras Mask had basically dive bosses to Ocarinas Ten, but Majors also doubled up on mid bosses, having them guard the item and the key.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:47
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Yeah as much as I love Majora's Mask, it definitely had the weakest bosses in the series outside of the NES Zeldas. Especially so after OoT's had set the bar so well. Wind Waker probably had the overall best in the series, but Twilight Princess's bosses were also all good, plus Stallord  .
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Jun 19, 2014 17:51
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Now that I've played through MM about a dozen times I really like the first day you spend out of the main town. If you're quick and know what you're doing you can burn through the entirety of the deku stuff and be finishing up chasing the butler right as you get into the end of the 3rd day. It's timed almost perfectly for it.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:51
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Say what you will about the overworld but Skyward Sword's Ancient Cistern was the best Zelda dungeon ever. The boss was awesome too.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:56
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chumbler posted:Yeah as much as I love Majora's Mask, it definitely had the weakest bosses in the series outside of the NES Zeldas. Especially so after OoT's had set the bar so well. Wind Waker probably had the overall best in the series, but Twilight Princess's bosses were also all good, plus Stallord Confession time: I never owned a gamecube, so I never beat WW or even played very much of it, just the first little area really. Picked up the HD version on WiiU and was already excited about it, but your post just made me twice as excited. (I love boss fights) Its too bad I'm old and I work all the drat time now! Need to sit down for serious zelda marathon. I'm also still halfway through LBW and not sure if I should start WW before finishing LBW or not.
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Jun 19, 2014 17:56
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Bombadilillo posted:I hope a 3ds mm remake gets rid of losing expendable items. There's no reason falling though time makes you drop bombs but not the bomb bag. The gently caress are you getting bombs for, son?
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Jun 19, 2014 18:00
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PantsBandit posted:Now that I've played through MM about a dozen times I really like the first day you spend out of the main town. If you're quick and know what you're doing you can burn through the entirety of the deku stuff and be finishing up chasing the butler right as you get into the end of the 3rd day. It's timed almost perfectly for it. My most recent run of Majora's Mask, on the Wii VC, I was able to open each dungeon and finish it on the same 3 day cycle. I felt like a badass. Still got horribly stuck in Stone Tower Temple because I forgot how to flip it and finding all the fairies in that place is a huge bitch. Then I put the game down for awhile and tried to finish it, but I got horribly stuck again on the moon. I think I'll wait for the 3DS remake before I try to play it again. Surely it's coming, right? Zaphod42 posted:Confession time: I never owned a gamecube, so I never beat WW or even played very much of it, just the first little area really. Wind Waker is awesome (my personal favorite Zelda), but so is Link Between Worlds. Might as well finish LBW before moving on to WW. That way you won't get confused by jumping between games. Unless you're not as easily confused as I am...
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Jun 19, 2014 18:01
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Zaphod42 posted:Confession time: I never owned a gamecube, so I never beat WW or even played very much of it, just the first little area really. You could probably finish LBW on a Saturday afternoon if you're not going for 100%, so just knock it out. And what I meant about WW's bosses are that none of them really fall flat or feel like chores, but there aren't any clear standouts like Stallord from TP. They're fairly easy, but balance that out by just being really cool and having good music.
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Jun 19, 2014 18:02
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greatn posted:Dudes. Like, what if Ganon put on Majora's mask? Holy poo poo! No joke this was an idea i thought a lot about back in middle school.
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Jun 19, 2014 18:06
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Yeah the Stallord fight is like the coolest thing that ever happened in a Zelda game and pretty much redeems TP entirely on its own. (Not that TP is bad, I think its pretty good!  Definitely no OOT though.)
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Jun 19, 2014 18:06
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I guess if I'm going to be honest, there isn't a Zelda game I've played that I haven't liked so far. Even AoL, the little monster game just has a special place in my heart, and the drat Oracle games, with their endless baseball mini-games for worthless rings. I still have to get through the handheld Windwaker sequels and A Link Between Worlds, though, and I hear the DS ones are kind of garbage.
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Jun 19, 2014 18:15
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Bicyclops posted:I guess if I'm going to be honest, there isn't a Zelda game I've played that I haven't liked so far. Even AoL, the little monster game just has a special place in my heart, and the drat Oracle games, with their endless baseball mini-games for worthless rings. Spirit Tracks is legitimately a Good Game and Phantom Hourglass is flawed but I liked it well enough. Twilight Princess is the only one I didn't like. I found the visual style to be extremely bland and by the endgame I was so ready for it to be over.
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Jun 19, 2014 18:17
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