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Basic Chunnel posted:Since these games are cursed to endlessly have the same things repeated about them anywhere CRPGs are discussed, I would point out that BG1 was more or less lifted straight from a Bioware PnP game and in that sense it's a more faithful rendering of the tabletop gaming experience than any game of any kind made before or since. And that's pretty much what they were going for, they didn't get into the RPG storytelling business til BG2. Not to cast aspersions but if you don't find Xan or Xzar amusing then you're very likely no fun to play with. That actually makes a lot of sense, and to be fair I do actually genuinely like Xan, it's just too bad he's absolute garbage in combat 
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Jun 28, 2014 07:18
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I never hated Imoen. I liked all the voices as well. Isn't PoE going to be mostly silent?
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Jun 28, 2014 07:29
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Wolfsheim posted:That actually makes a lot of sense, and to be fair I do actually genuinely like Xan, it's just too bad he's absolute garbage in combat
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Jun 28, 2014 07:33
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Khanstant posted:I never hated Imoen. I liked all the voices as well. Isn't PoE going to be mostly silent? I thought they were gonna do the same basic IE games thing where everyone gets a few little quips in? At least I remember them mentioning different voice options for the PC, and it would be weird if the whole gang wasn't in on that action. Basic Chunnel posted:When the Bioware devs rolled their characters they didn't cheese the stats or even allow addition/subtraction like any right-thinking player would. That's how we got Xan, and loving Khalid There had to be some tweaking, though, how else would Coran have 20 DEX and that one dwarf guy 20 CON? And I feel like it wasn't coincidence that the obvious favorite Minsc ended up with the only decent STR score.
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Jun 28, 2014 07:59
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People have some serious rose-tinting going on for BG2. Even if you can look past the impressively bad game mechanics and 2nd edition D&D crap, the writing and characters are pretty mediocre. Irenicus is pretty much the only thing that stands out as Really Good. BG1 on the other hand I didn't even finish because of how geniunely awful that game is.
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Jun 28, 2014 08:33
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Wolfsheim posted:That actually makes a lot of sense, and to be fair I do actually genuinely like Xan, it's just too bad he's absolute garbage in combat Xan's actually a pretty good tank* in the original BG1 engine. He comes with mirror image memorized and thanks to his sword you can easily reach > 100% fire resist with him before leaving the Nashkel area even. With the BG2 engine changes though he's a lot worse because mirror image gets nerfed with RNG. * if you don't believe that, try to remember NIMBUL.
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Jun 28, 2014 08:33
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Mymla posted:People have some serious rose-tinting going on for BG2. Even if you can look past the impressively bad game mechanics and 2nd edition D&D crap, the writing and characters are pretty mediocre. Irenicus is pretty much the only thing that stands out as Really Good. The spell system was and is amazing. Once you get over the learning curve no other system offers even close to the options.
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Jun 28, 2014 08:49
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Basic Chunnel posted:Not to cast aspersions but if you don't find Xan or Xzar amusing then you're very likely no fun to play with. A Catastrophe fucked around with this message at 09:16 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 09:13
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Basic Chunnel posted:When the Bioware devs rolled their characters they didn't cheese the stats or even allow addition/subtraction like any right-thinking player would. That's how we got Xan, and loving Khalid I'm pretty sure none of the characters in BG were generated by rolling 3d6 for each stat in the one true 2e AD&D way. It always depresses me when people complain about the sense of humour in BG, which I always took as being somewhat Monkey Island inspired as much as it came from any kind of RPG heritage - it even did the thing where it used the dialogue options as an opportunity to deliver multiple punchlines at the same time. That kind of thing had been eliminated by BG2 though so I suppose that probably made a few people happy.
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Jun 28, 2014 09:25
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Mymla posted:People have some serious rose-tinting going on for BG2. Even if you can look past the impressively bad game mechanics and 2nd edition D&D crap, the writing and characters are pretty mediocre. Irenicus is pretty much the only thing that stands out as Really Good. I only seriously played through BG2 a few years ago and it's still my favorite game of all time.  Different opinions are cool but statements like "People can only like this game because of nostalgia" because you personally don't consider it good is all kinds of silly.
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Jun 28, 2014 09:26
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The main reason Irenicus is even notable is because of David Warner, anyway. Saying the mechanics of BG2 are bad isn't really objective, given how fun it is to totally break the game, and I really liked the variety of spell options, even if many of them were redundant or borderline useless, the effects were just great.
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Jun 28, 2014 09:43
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Wolfsheim posted:To tie the Bioware derail back into isometric RPGs, I'm playing Baldur's Gate right now and some of you guys have some serious rose-tinting when it comes to how good their writing used to be. Safana is basically just proto-Isabella, Xzar is almost pure monkey-cheese and if you had to listen to modern, fully-voiced cutscenes of Imoen you would want to choke the giggle-squee right the gently caress out of her. It was just less overt because it was mostly text and you were fourteen. QFT (sorry). What made the IE games great were their length and the tactical combat and all that, but the writing feels overrated to me. I actually cared more about the story in IWD because it felt better constructed (one big story arch and some smaller arches for each chapter) than BG's where I just wanted to rush through content because it was so loving long to level up and stop the hit misses contests of the early levels. Also, screw that Werewolf leader and his unholy HP regen. Kanfy posted:Different opinions are cool but statements like "People can only like this game because of nostalgia" because you personally don't consider it good is all kinds of silly. It's also possible to like a game despite its flaws. Mass Effect has some very cheesy parts that always make me  , but I love the series nevertheless. Some people are more into the storytelling, some more into the gameplay, some into the graphics, etc. That's why making video games is so god damned hard and I admire rope kid and the like for keep doing it when some of your most vocals customers are loving morons.
Furism fucked around with this message at 14:03 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 13:59
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Leveling up in BG1 didn't take that long. You can get to level 2 really fast if you get Imoen up to level 2 by doing quests (XP cap of 1250), go into the Beregost smithy at night and grab the Bastard Sword +1 out of the chest at the back, and then go fight the Wolf pack on the Beregost Temple map. Instant level 2 for everyone. It's slow compared to newer games though where you're like level 7 after 2 hours of play. In other news a couple of sites are claiming to have the Minimum Specs for Pillars of Eternity: http://www.gry-online.pl/S013.asp?ID=86135 http://guides.gamepressure.com/pillarsofeternity/guide.asp?ID=25637 CPU: 2.6 GHz Pentium IV or equivalent AMD Athlon processor RAM: 2GB RAM GPU: Model Shader 3 Compatible Video Card, Nvidia GeForce 6600 GT or ATI Radeon 9800 PRO video card or better Operating system: Windows XP or greater / Mac OSX 10.5 (Leopard) / Linux HDD Space: 20 GB Not sure if this is true or not though. Sensuki fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 15:20
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Sensuki posted:Leveling up in BG1 didn't take that long. You can get to level 2 really fast if you get Imoen up to level 2 by doing quests (XP cap of 1250), go into the Beregost smithy at night and grab the Bastard Sword +1 out of the chest at the back, and then go fight the Wolf pack on the Beregost Temple map. You don't know that without meta-gaming though. IWD got you to level 2-3 pretty fast just by, literally, following a path of (quickly dead) goblins.
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Jun 28, 2014 15:25
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Not mention that DnD pre 4th Edition sucked for the first couple of levels. If you're a Wizard and you play with the (dumb) randomized level-up HP gains you can be hosed for even longer. And even if you don't, level one as a Wizard is a joke, where literally any enemy including the first ones you encounter can one-shot you. Complete random character deaths are not good design or fun. It's odd that DnD Online was the game that figured out the obvious solution (a flat hitpoint "Hero" bonus that is large enough to prevent one-shots in the early game but irrelevant late game) and put it into practice out of all the DnD games.
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Jun 28, 2014 15:52
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Furism posted:You don't know that without meta-gaming though. IWD got you to level 2-3 pretty fast just by, literally, following a path of (quickly dead) goblins. So? That's the good thing about semi non linear games with no scaling. AD&D Level 1 Mage: 
Sensuki fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Jun 28, 2014 |
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Jun 28, 2014 16:00
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Kanfy posted:I only seriously played through BG2 a few years ago and it's still my favorite game of all time. I've always found that Bioware games excel at presentation more than any one particular thing. Individual things might be flawed, like AD&D being obtuse garbage that is impenetrable to new players, or Mass Effect 1s gameplay being a mediocre RPG and a mediocre shooter taped together. But the music, the art, the characters always really come together to sell the experience. No game makes me feel like a high fantasy hero on a sweeping epic like BG2. No game captures the pulpy space opera adventure feeling like Mass Effect. Bioware might be more style than substance but when it works it works.
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Jun 28, 2014 16:26
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Captain Oblivious posted:I've always found that Bioware games excel at presentation more than any one particular thing. Individual things might be flawed, like AD&D being obtuse garbage that is impenetrable to new players, or Mass Effect 1s gameplay being a mediocre RPG and a mediocre shooter taped together. This. I replayed bg1 and 2 and find both to be extremely engrossing in a way that hasn't really been captured since. From Xan to Viconia to Mazzy to yes, even Khalid and Jaheira I find the characters to mostly be very memorable. Same for Mass Effect. The characters are really interesting. They also did a pretty decent job of making every play style useful and effective. This is why I'm so pumped for PoE. It looks to recapture that magic
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Jun 28, 2014 16:36
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So, Icewind Dale is pretty good then? I've been thinking about getting it off GOG and playing it because I've been craving some good Obsidian writing after Planescape: Torment (I thought that game was going to be overhyped and oh how wrong was I.) I already played the hell out of New Vegas and the old Fallouts.
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Jun 28, 2014 18:16
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Contra Calculus posted:So, Icewind Dale is pretty good then? I've been thinking about getting it off GOG and playing it because I've been craving some good Obsidian writing after Planescape: Torment (I thought that game was going to be overhyped and oh how wrong was I.) I already played the hell out of New Vegas and the old Fallouts.
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Jun 28, 2014 18:21
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I wouldn't be getting PoE if I didn't enjoy Infinity Engine combat. 
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Jun 28, 2014 18:24
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Contra Calculus posted:I wouldn't be getting PoE if I didn't enjoy Infinity Engine combat. I always felt I'd like Infinity Engine games more without DnD in the way, so I'm very glad for the changes they've been making to make the ruleset not poo poo.
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Jun 28, 2014 18:44
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Icewind Dale was also, IIRC, the first game Rope Kid worked on. And he was lead designer for IWD II, which is also excellent. The IWD games have the best tactical combat and encounter design of any of the IE games.
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Jun 28, 2014 18:46
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Lotish posted:I always felt I'd like Infinity Engine games more without DnD in the way, so I'm very glad for the changes they've been making to make the ruleset not poo poo. Yeah, being able to have a combat system thats less obtuse than 2nd edition D&D will make combat alot more enjoyable. "The gently caress is THACO and why is a low armor class good?" - 90% of BG players
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Jun 28, 2014 18:47
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What almost always makes me take a break from DnD based games is the tedium of stacking up buffs every time you rest / before every big fight, so I'm glad PoE has most buffs modal or castable in-combat only.
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Jun 28, 2014 19:26
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Agean90 posted:Yeah, being able to have a combat system thats less obtuse than 2nd edition D&D will make combat alot more enjoyable. That's another good thing about Icewind Dale 2. It's not THACO 2nd Edition anymore. Hands down the best Infinity Engine game mechanically.
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Jun 28, 2014 20:38
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DatonKallandor posted:That's another good thing about Icewind Dale 2. It's not THACO 2nd Edition anymore. Hands down the best Infinity Engine game mechanically.
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Jun 28, 2014 20:50
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Awwww now you're saying I gotta get ID, ID 2 and PS:T?! None of which are available on Steam >
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Jun 28, 2014 21:20
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Jastiger posted:Awwww now you're saying I gotta get ID, ID 2 and PS:T?! None of which are available on Steam > Gotta love Good Old Games
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Jun 28, 2014 21:57
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Sensuki posted:It's slow compared to newer games though where you're like level 7 after 2 hours of play. Games that fly through them dont do that. The difference between level 52 and 53 is usually irrelevant. Agean90 posted:"The gently caress is THACO and why is a low armor class good?" - 90% of BG players Jastiger posted:Awwww now you're saying I gotta get ID, ID 2 and PS:T?! None of which are available on Steam >
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Jun 28, 2014 22:18
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FRINGE posted:
I'm pretty sure Gog had a D&D bundle with both Baldur's Gates, both Icewind Dales, both Neverwinter Nights, Planescape: Torment and Temple of Elemental Evil + all expansions for something like 80 or 85% off, several times even. There is no excuse not to own them all at this point.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:32
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Kanfy posted:I'm pretty sure Gog had a D&D bundle with both Baldur's Gates, both Icewind Dales, both Neverwinter Nights, Planescape: Torment and Temple of Elemental Evil + all expansions for something like 80 or 85% off, several times even. There is no excuse not to own them all at this point.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:33
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FRINGE posted:That didnt happen during the time of BG. "Armor Class" was introduced to most people people by DnD. The heavily marketed THAC0 hatred came after WotC and the 3e horror story. (Along with "subtraction is too hard for mortal men" thing in pnp games.) Nah, Diablo was out 2 years before and that had normal additive armor class. I don't think THAC0 is some sort of insurmountable math problem that regular people can't figure out, but it's still pretty unintuitive.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:37
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Kanfy posted:I'm pretty sure Gog had a D&D bundle with both Baldur's Gates, both Icewind Dales, both Neverwinter Nights, Planescape: Torment and Temple of Elemental Evil + all expansions for something like 80 or 85% off, several times even. There is no excuse not to own them all at this point. This is pretty much one of their go to bundles every time they have a sell.
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Jun 28, 2014 22:50
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Hakkesshu posted:Nah, Diablo was out 2 years before and that had normal additive armor class. I don't think THAC0 is some sort of insurmountable math problem that regular people can't figure out, but it's still pretty unintuitive. On that note, another factor that makes me love IWDII is its use of a modified 3E ruleset. You can do a lot of cool character builds with it. It also has, in my opinion, the best combat encounter design of the IE games.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:13
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Captain Oblivious posted:I've always found that Bioware games excel at presentation more than any one particular thing. Individual things might be flawed, like AD&D being obtuse garbage that is impenetrable to new players, or Mass Effect 1s gameplay being a mediocre RPG and a mediocre shooter taped together. Isn't there some graphic out there with the "Ultimate Video Game"? Bioware level polish, Obisidan writing, Bethesda world building, Engine written and developed by John Carmack, etc. That is a world I'd like to live in. 
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Jun 28, 2014 23:21
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Hakkesshu posted:Nah, Diablo was out 2 years before and that had normal additive armor class. I don't think THAC0 is some sort of insurmountable math problem that regular people can't figure out, but it's still pretty unintuitive. So were a lot of the status effects and the effects of stats, it's nice to mouse over things and get an explanation. Unless you were pretty familiar with D&D you had no reason to think constitution 20 would give your character regeneration.
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Jun 28, 2014 23:33
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Mr.Pibbleton posted:So were a lot of the status effects and the effects of stats, it's nice to mouse over things and get an explanation. Unless you were pretty familiar with D&D you had no reason to think constitution 20 would give your character regeneration. Or that strength wouldn't do a loving thing for ya until 16, which is the arbitrary magical point at which it begins to benefit you 
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Jun 28, 2014 23:35
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Gyshall posted:Isn't there some graphic out there with the "Ultimate Video Game"? Bioware level polish, Obisidan writing, Bethesda world building, Engine written and developed by John Carmack, etc. Can't find it, so have this one: 
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Jun 28, 2014 23:37
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Captain Oblivious posted:Or that strength wouldn't do a loving thing for ya until 16, which is the arbitrary magical point at which it begins to benefit you I wonder how many people even tried to force locks open? Also why couldn't you simply retry those things if you failed once? Gyshall posted:Isn't there some graphic out there with the "Ultimate Video Game"? Bioware level polish, Obisidan writing, Bethesda world building, Engine written and developed by John Carmack, etc. Well you can always turn to the modding community to try and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNRaTejGNps 
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Jun 28, 2014 23:39
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