Wrestling Questions That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread - "ASK THEM! >:("

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new phone who dis: May 24, 2007; by VideoGames; Morbid Hound

MassRafTer posted:

WWE hasn't lost half its customer base. Raw averages around 4 million viewers per week now, compared to 5-6 million at the absolute peak of the company's popularity, which was half a decade before Cena came in.

Okay a third. If you lose a third of your customer base and make more money it's not because your product got more interesting.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 08:19

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# ? Apr 26, 2024 14:34

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

natetimm posted:

Okay a third. If you lose a third of your customer base and make more money it's not because your product got more interesting.

A third if you compare it to the absolute peak of the company (a peak that happened half a decade before Cena became the top star) to right now with a three hour Raw show. Overall the drop is smaller, and if you compare it to the period before Cena became the top star on Raw it is even smaller. That drop in fans to open your product up to all sorts of new merchandising and sponsorships which resulted in record revenue is the kind of no brainer decision that any company would make.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 08:31

Hammond Egger: Feb 20, 2011; by the sex ghost

MassRafTer posted:

A third if you compare it to the absolute peak of the company

At the company's peak there was also another company with a few million fans of its own who could have been drawn over with the right booking philosophy. Cena came much later for sure, but the audience for good wrestling is still out there. At its peak you could argue for up to 12 million people willing to watch the product. A good product, with a diverse portfolio of actual superstars. Not just Cena and a bunch of chumps who aren't as good as Cena.

And revenue now is as incomparable to the Attitude Era as the Attitude Era was to the Hogan Era. So you can't attribute the current era's financial "success" to the only person who has been its figurehead when nobody else has been in Cena's position during the recent revolution in TV and Internet viewing. It looks like he's done great business, but compared to what? There's nothing to compare him to! How can you say he's done better or worse than anyone else with the same push?

# ? Jun 28, 2014 09:55

sticklefifer: Nov 11, 2003; by VideoGames

oldpainless posted:

Noc was a clean Kane win which led to taker doubting himself and the return of Paul bearer screwed taker over at bragging rights and then the buried alive match which nexus interfered in.

So, yes.

Oh, right, Nexus interfering in the Buried Alive match for literally no reason. I remember Otunga threatening Barrett that he'd tell everyone why they did it, and then never did because the real reason was the writers had no idea either.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 09:58

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

Not as popular as Steve Austin or the Rock =/= Overpushed

And to illustrate the absurdity of WWE doing 12-15 million viewers by putting it into perspective: That would be on the order of an average NFL football Sunday viewership, which is the most popular TV and spectator sport in America by far, and has been on an uninterrupted growth in popularity since the 1960's. Let's just set aside the issue of why John Cena should be held responsible for not posting these numbers.

Anyway, the most overpushed wrestler is probably Kevin Nash.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 11:15

omgomgomg: Oct 26, 2012

Speaking of which, who is the most underrated/under pushed giant? All of them seemed to have a decent career despite their athletic ability

# ? Jun 28, 2014 12:10

Writer Cath: Apr 1, 2007; Box. Flipped.; Plaster Town Cop

omgomgomg posted:

Speaking of which, who is the most underrated/under pushed giant? All of them seemed to have a decent career despite their athletic ability

Eli Cottonwood.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 12:47

OJ MIST 2 THE DICK: Sep 11, 2008; Anytime I need to see your face I just close my eyes
And I am taken to a place
Where your crystal minds and magenta feelings
Take up shelter in the base of my spine
Sweet like a chica cherry cola
-Cheap Trick; Nap Ghost

Saul Goode posted:

At the company's peak there was also another company with a few million fans of its own who could have been drawn over with the right booking philosophy. Cena came much later for sure, but the audience for good wrestling is still out there. At its peak you could argue for up to 12 million people willing to watch the product. A good product, with a diverse portfolio of actual superstars. Not just Cena and a bunch of chumps who aren't as good as Cena.

And revenue now is as incomparable to the Attitude Era as the Attitude Era was to the Hogan Era. So you can't attribute the current era's financial "success" to the only person who has been its figurehead when nobody else has been in Cena's position during the recent revolution in TV and Internet viewing. It looks like he's done great business, but compared to what? There's nothing to compare him to! How can you say he's done better or worse than anyone else with the same push?

Why do you consider WCW a good booking philosophy

# ? Jun 28, 2014 13:16

Mob: May 7, 2002; Me reading your posts

Saul Goode posted:

At the company's peak there was also another company with a few million fans of its own who could have been drawn over with the right booking philosophy. Cena came much later for sure, but the audience for good wrestling is still out there. At its peak you could argue for up to 12 million people willing to watch the product. A good product, with a diverse portfolio of actual superstars. Not just Cena and a bunch of chumps who aren't as good as Cena.

And revenue now is as incomparable to the Attitude Era as the Attitude Era was to the Hogan Era. So you can't attribute the current era's financial "success" to the only person who has been its figurehead when nobody else has been in Cena's position during the recent revolution in TV and Internet viewing. It looks like he's done great business, but compared to what? There's nothing to compare him to! How can you say he's done better or worse than anyone else with the same push?

I get that you're trying to move the goalposts so you can be right but you have no idea which direction to move them in.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 13:38

dialhforhero: Apr 3, 2008; Am I 🧑‍🏫 out of touch🤔? No🧐, it's the children👶 who are wrong🤷🏼‍♂️

Daniel Bryan posted:

Maybe look through a yearbook? I don't know why you'd spend that much time on it but whatever.

I didn't go to high school with the guy so how would I have the yearbook to a school I have no idea he went to? Also the effort of googling Dean Ambrose's high school produces nothing. So much time and effort, I know. I was wondering if anyone happened to know since, according to him, he grew up in East End so he probably went to like, Anderson, Turpin, or McNicholas.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 14:07

TheCool69: Sep 23, 2011

dialhforhero posted:

I didn't go to high school with the guy so how would I have the yearbook to a school I have no idea he went to? Also the effort of googling Dean Ambrose's high school produces nothing. So much time and effort, I know. I was wondering if anyone happened to know since, according to him, he grew up in East End so he probably went to like, Anderson, Turpin, or McNicholas.

You do know that his real name is not Dean Ambrose right?

# ? Jun 28, 2014 14:33

EugeneJ: Feb 5, 2012; by FactsAreUseless

dialhforhero posted:

I didn't go to high school with the guy so how would I have the yearbook to a school I have no idea he went to? Also the effort of googling Dean Ambrose's high school produces nothing. So much time and effort, I know. I was wondering if anyone happened to know since, according to him, he grew up in East End so he probably went to like, Anderson, Turpin, or McNicholas.

This is the best post.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 14:36

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

Are guy going to send him a Chris Jericho-style videotape?

# ? Jun 28, 2014 14:41

Hammond Egger: Feb 20, 2011; by the sex ghost

Mob posted:

I get that you're trying to move the goalposts so you can be right but you have no idea which direction to move them in.

You get a lot of things I'm sure.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 15:03

dialhforhero: Apr 3, 2008; Am I 🧑‍🏫 out of touch🤔? No🧐, it's the children👶 who are wrong🤷🏼‍♂️

TheCool69 posted:

You do know that his real name is not Dean Ambrose right?

Yes. Look, the genesis of trying to find out was just so I had an idea of where he grew up 'cause apparently he had a pretty lovely childhood, and like I said I'm from Cincy so its interesting to learn about local celebrities and how they got to where they are now. Also just by happen stance I'd like to see how different he looked in high school vs. now because those things can be funny.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 15:16

jscolon2.0: Jul 9, 2001; With great payroll, comes great disappointment.

Web Jew.0 posted:

It's just for Rhino. When Lashley or Kaitlyn do it it's still called a spear.

You're a monster.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 15:20

projecthalaxy: Dec 27, 2008; Yes hello it is I Kurt's Secret Son

dialhforhero posted:

Yes. Look, the genesis of trying to find out was just so I had an idea of where he grew up 'cause apparently he had a pretty lovely childhood, and like I said I'm from Cincy so its interesting to learn about local celebrities and how they got to where they are now. Also just by happen stance I'd like to see how different he looked in high school vs. now because those things can be funny.

Do you plan to eat his hair? You kinda sound like you want to eat his hair.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 17:56

MotU: Mar 6, 2007; It was like she was evicting walking garbage.; Pillbug

No don't eat his hair he's going bald he needs all the hair he can get

# ? Jun 28, 2014 18:08

Curtis of Nigeria: Jan 9, 2009

Or he can write Dean a letter about how great it would be if they could meet each other and have a catch. It would be a real home run.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 18:13

JK!: May 10, 2007; EZ-PZ!

Dear Dean,
I wrote you but you still ain't callin'. I left my cell, my pager, and my home phone at the bottom...

# ? Jun 28, 2014 18:32

Cavauro: Jan 9, 2008

Please stop it. It's NOT a big deal. I just need to find Dean Ambrose's high school right now or else.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 18:48

Solomonic: Jan 3, 2008; INCIPIT SANTA

Curtis of Nigeria posted:

Or he can write Dean a letter about how great it would be if they could meet each other and have a catch. It would be a real home run.

RIP dialhforhero, discovered inside multiple garbage bags

# ? Jun 28, 2014 18:54

Defiance Industries: Jul 22, 2010; A five-star manufacturer

On the long odds that you do find Ambrose, can you give him a copy of my novel where the Shield has to fight ghosts so they take jobs with the Ghostbusters to learn the tricks of the ghost-fighting trade? He won't think its weird at all.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 19:02

jscolon2.0: Jul 9, 2001; With great payroll, comes great disappointment.

This should be easy. Which of those three high schools was on the wrong side of the tracks?

# ? Jun 28, 2014 19:15

a retard: Jan 7, 2013; by Lowtax

Couldn't you just ask him on Twitter or some poo poo?

# ? Jun 28, 2014 19:21

projecthalaxy: Dec 27, 2008; Yes hello it is I Kurt's Secret Son

On a completely unrelated and equally not creepy note, I need to know which public toilets Jack Swagger uses most. I'm not weird though, so its OK.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 19:53

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

Saul Goode posted:

At the company's peak there was also another company with a few million fans of its own who could have been drawn over with the right booking philosophy. Cena came much later for sure, but the audience for good wrestling is still out there. At its peak you could argue for up to 12 million people willing to watch the product. A good product, with a diverse portfolio of actual superstars. Not just Cena and a bunch of chumps who aren't as good as Cena.

And revenue now is as incomparable to the Attitude Era as the Attitude Era was to the Hogan Era. So you can't attribute the current era's financial "success" to the only person who has been its figurehead when nobody else has been in Cena's position during the recent revolution in TV and Internet viewing. It looks like he's done great business, but compared to what? There's nothing to compare him to! How can you say he's done better or worse than anyone else with the same push?

I am the person saying it is more fair to compare Cena to the period directly before he became the man than the Attitude era. That's what he can be most easily compared to. How was business a year before Cena became champion? How was it a few years after? How was it the last five years. If you compare WWE with John Cena not as the guy compared to him with the guy you can see how much he mattered. You sound like some WWWF fans of the late 70s and early 80s when Hogan came in. "Look how many fans he's running off, we're not sitting front row anymore, they can't sell out MSG, blah bah bah."

WCW fans aren't even worth mentioning, we wouldn't even switch to WWE after the hype of Wrestlemania X7 one of the greatest shows of all time. Nothing was bringing WCW fans to WWE.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 19:58

LividLiquid: Apr 13, 2002

This argument is fascinating, because neither of you are disagreeing about what you're talking about; just the definition of "over-pushed."

On the one hand, you have a guy saying WWE is doing fine with Cena, but they could've done even better with different booking or a different top guy, which is always going to be true in hypotheticals.

Then you have MRP saying that Cena made the company an obscene amount of money and his lovely booking and poor fan reaction doesn't mean he's over-pushed, which is also true.

I want to weigh in, but I can't, really, because I agree with both of you.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 20:04

Defiance Industries: Jul 22, 2010; A five-star manufacturer

a retard posted:

Couldn't you just ask him on Twitter or some poo poo?

Have you seen Ambrose's twitter?

# ? Jun 28, 2014 20:34

Perigryn: Oct 22, 2010; TaJaaaaadoruuuuu

LividLiquid posted:

I want to weigh in, but I can't, really, because I agree with both of you.

Now you see why I quote this guy whenever there's a discussion/argument

# ? Jun 28, 2014 20:58

ChampRamp: Mar 29, 2010; SAVE_US.CHR

I'm late on this, but most overpushed wrestler? Sting in the early 90s.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:05

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

ChampRamp posted:

I'm late on this, but most overpushed wrestler? Sting in the early 90s.

If you're going to do that what about Lex Express era Luger?

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:09

ChampRamp: Mar 29, 2010; SAVE_US.CHR

Luigi Thirty posted:

If you're going to do that what about Lex Express era Luger?

Sting as a top draw bombed much worse

e: I found a DVDVR post that did a good job looking at Sting as a draw

quote:

The problem is that when you step outside of the "crow" time frame, the case for Sting weakens dramatically. In fact it weakens so much that you really are forced to argue that Sting's 97 run was other worldly (more on that later) in order to build any case for him at all.

When this issue came up at Classics last year I actually ended up comparing 1993 WCW when Sting was the top face for the bulk of the year to 1986 AWA. Here is what I found:

Using Clawmaster and Graham Cawthon's results I was able to confirm my off the cuff statement. Using the shows we have available attendance figures for the AWA in 86 drew 3303 people per show. WCW in 93 drew 1911 people per show.

Now this is EXTREMELY flawed. The AWA ran fewer shows and we are missing a lot of figures from them. For WCW I used the paid attendance figures where available and left off any show listed as all freebies (mostly shows from Center Stage). WCW also ran some small towns/venues that dragged down their average.

WCW had a couple more cards with 5k or more in attendance. For the AWA I left off a couple of joint shows where Crockett talent took up a third of the card. If I had included them the number would have been even and that's without figures from some shows that presumably could have been 5k or higher (for instance we are missing some Salt Lake City figures and that was the AWA's last "hot" town in many ways). WCW was also helped dramatically in this area by international touring, where the bulk of their 5k shows occurred. AWA actually had more 10k plus shows (3-2).

It's possible that if we adjusted for the much larger number of WCW cards run/with figures and the fact that they were running a couple of very small venues/towns with consistency they could close the gap on average attendance. It's also possible if we had all of the AWA attendance figures there average would go down. Would it be enough to make up the nearly 1400 per show gap? Maybe, maybe not.

The point in all of this? How much does "stardom" or "being on top" really matter, when you are AT BEST drawing numbers roughly identical to dying days AWA?

Edit:

AWA Results via Claw

http://sportsandwres... ... 387-4.html

WCW results via Graham's site

http://www.thehistor...e.com/wcw93.htm"

As I noted, there are real flaws with those results, but not to the point that they tell us nothing and what they tell us isn't good for Sting. It is notable here that 91 and 92 WCW would not yield results dissimilar from what I found there. 1990 might to a degree, but some of that is offset by the initial value of Sting's win over Flair and the Luger v. Flair feud at the beginning of the year which inflated the overall attendance for the year (some of this is going off of memory I admit).

In fact the low point of WCW in terms of paid attendance at show's coincides with Sting's run as the top face of the company. Some say this was because of the departure of Flair, and that Flair was Sting's natural rival and best opponent (I don't buy that but you hear this from Sting defenders) but here it is notable that Funk, Luger, Savage, and Hogan were all better drawing opponents against Flair from he period between 89-95 (basically Sting's rise up the cards through the beginning of the Nitro Era), and random opponents like Michael Hayes actually did better numbers v. Flair than Sting as well. While there is no shame in not drawing at the level of those names (though Luger is an interesting case), you would think a guy who was the top face of a company for the bulk of this time would rate higher as an opponent for the top heel who's name he is often linked to. Whatever the case may be, the reality is that business went down shortly after Sting won the title, and started to go back up right around the time Hogan came in in 94. Sting's run as the "guy" was the low point of WCW when it comes to drawing power.

Now one way of explaining this is that all of wrestling was in the shitter during the early 90's in the States. And that is generally true. But again this is a case where when you look at Sting more closely things look less and less favorable. Again if you compare him to the WWF during the same period, business was in certainly down up there, but not to the degree it was in WCW. Here are the results for 93 WWF

http://www.thehistoryofwwe.com/93.htm

I picked 93 only because I had used that as a baseline before, but you could just easily look at 91 or 92 (or 90). I think we can all agree that 93 wasn't a particularly strong year for the WWF, but it was a much, much stronger year for the WWF than it was for WCW at least in terms of paid attendance at shows. Again if you take a bigger picture look at the general period in question (90-mid-94) that isn't going to change things at all in favor of Sting.

Here the common argument is that you can't compare the two because WWF was a much better run company, and was often running in bigger areas. Setting aside how silly I think that argument can be if taken too far, you can easily turn around and compare Sting's run to the few regional promotions left, namely the Memphis, Smoky Mountain and WWC in Puerto Rico (I would argue that ECW was still in its infancy during all of this and had entirely different goals as a promotion). Looking at MSC results from the early 90's is not pretty given what we know Memphis wrestling used to be, but what is amazing is that the average attendance (and there are a lot of gaps in attendance here to be fair) is not much lower than the average attendance of WCW shows at least in 1993. In the case of PR the attendance figures are murky at best, but what we do have indicates that WWC was generally speaking drawing as much or more during the period in question, and there big shows were doing considerably better than WCW's even with a much weaker talent pool to draw from. Perhaps the most interesting comparison though is SMW because they ran many of the same markets WCW did during the period, but with a much smaller promotional budget, and a much thinner roster. What you often see here is SMW drawing comparable or BETTER numbers to WCW.

Here are some examples:

Volunteer Slam - Knoxville, TN - Civic Coliseum - May 22, 1992 (1,000)
Moved from 5/11/92
Joey Maggs & Hector Guerrero defeated Rip Rogers & Barry Horowitz at the 11-minute mark when Guerrero pinned Horowitz
SMW Heavyweight Championship Tournament Quarter-Finals: The Dirty White Boy (w/ Ron Wright) pinned Dixie Dynamite at the 7-minute mark with the Bucksnort Blaster
SMW Heavyweight Championship Tournament Quarter-Finals: Brian Lee pinned Buddy Landell at the 7-minute mark with an inside cradle as Landell attempted the figure-4
SMW Heavyweight Championship Tournament Quarter-Finals: Paul Orndorff pinned Tim Horner at the 18-minute mark after Horner's leg became trapped between the bottom two ropes
SMW Heavyweight Championship Tournament Quarter-Finals: Robert Gibson pinned Jimmy Golden at the 18-minute mark with a bulldog
SMW Heavyweight Championship Tournament Semi-Finals: Brian Lee pinned the Dirty White Boy (w/ Ron Wright) at the 11-minute mark after DWB missed a headbutt off the middle turnbuckle; Lee bled profusely from the head during the match; after the bout, DWB assaulted Lee with a steel chair
SMW Heavyweight Championship Tournament Semi-Finals: Paul Orndorff pinned Robert Gibson at the 11-minute mark by grabbing the tights for leverage after clipping Gibson in his injured left knee
SMW Tag Team Champions Stan Lane & Tom Prichard defeated Davey & Johnny Rich at the 13-minute mark when Lane pinned Johnny after Prichard used a loaded boot to hit an enzugiri behind the referee's back
SMW Heavyweight Championship Tournament Finals: Brian Lee defeated Paul Orndorff via disqualification at the 10-minute mark to win the title when SMW Commissioner Bob Armstrong, who replaced the knocked out referee, caught Orndorff using a foreign object; Lee began the match with his head heavily bandaged and eventually bled from the head; late in the bout, the Dirty White Boy attempted to interfere but was taken out by Lee

WCW @ Knoxville, TN - April 9, 1992 (700)
The Junkyard Dog pinned Richard Morton
WCW US Tag Team Champion Greg Valentine & Mike Graham defeated Marcus Alexander Bagwell & Tom Zenk
Ron Simmons pinned Cactus Jack
Nikita Koloff pinned Diamond Dallas Page
Dustin Rhodes & Barry Windham defeated WCW TV Champion Steve Austin & Larry Zbyszko in a bunkhouse match
Rick & Scott Steiner defeated WCW Tag Team Champions Arn Anderson & Bobby Eaton via disqualification
WCW World Champion Sting pinned Big Van Vader
WCW US Champion Rick Rude defeated Ricky Steamboat via disqualification after Steamboat used Rude's title belt

SMW @ Knoxville, TN - Civic Coliseum - November 29, 1992 (1,050)

The Nightstalker pinned Robbie Eagle at 4:31
Tracy Smothers pinned Dutch Mantell at the 11-second mark
Tracy Smothers pinned Dutch Mantell at the 8-second mark
Tracy Smothers defeated Dutch Mantell at the 32-second mark via disqualification
Robert Fuller & Jimmy Golden defeated Bobby Fulton & Dixie Dynamite at 8:22 when Golden pinned Fulton
Ron Garvin & Danny Davis defeated Paul Orndorff at 12:45 in a handicap match when Garvin pinned Orndorff
SMW Heavyweight Champion the Dirty White Boy defeated Tim Horner at 15:37 in a lumberjack match
The Mongolian Stomper defeated Kevin Sullivan via disqualification at 5:59
Ron Garvin won a battle royal at 5:20
Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson defeated SMW Tag Team Champions Stan Lane & Tom Prichard in a barbed wire steel cage match to win the titles when Morton pinned Lane at 6:48

WCW @ Knoxville, TN - Civic Coliseum - November 1, 1992 (matinee) (400)

Shane Douglas & Marcus Alexander Bagwell defeated Vinnie Vegas & Diamond Dallas Page
Kensuke Sasaki defeated Steve Austin
WCW/NWA Tag Team Champions Dustin Rhodes & Barry Windham defeated Cactus Jack & Tony Atlas
Big Van Vader defeated Nikita Koloff
Sting defeated Jake Roberts
WCW World Champion Ron Simmons defeated the Barbarian

SMW @ Johnson City, TN - Freedom Hall - November 28, 1992 (975)

Tracy Smothers pinned Robbie Eagle at 7:49
Robert Fuller & Jimmy Golden defeated Bobby Fulton & Dixie Dynamite at 20:16 when Golden pinned Fulton
Danny Davis & Ron Garvin defeated Paul Orndorff in a handicap match at 24:01 when Garvin pinned Orndorff
SMW Heavyweight Champion the Dirty White Boy defeated Tim Horner in a lumberjack match at 15:02
The Mongolian Stomper defeated Kevin Sullivan via disqualification
Tracy Smothers won a battle royal at 8:23; other participants included SMW Heavyweight Champion the Dirty White Boy, Dixie Dynamite, Robbie Eagle, Robert Fuller, Ron Garvin, Jimmy Golden, Tim Horner, The Nightstalker, and Paul Orndorff
Stan Lane & Tom Prichard defeated SMW Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson in a streetfight to win the titles when Prichard pinned Gibson

WCW @ Bristol, TN - Viking Hall - October 4, 1992 (1,450)

Erik Watts defeated Diamond Dallas Page
Shane Douglas & Marcus Alexander Bagwell defeated Greg Valentine & Dick Slater
Brian Pillman defeated Brad Armstrong
WCW TV Champion Scott Steiner defeated Arn Anderson
Sting & WCW/NWA Tag Team Champion Dustin Rhodes defeated Jake Roberts & Cactus Jack
WCW US Champion Rick Rude defeated Ricky Steamboat
WCW World Champion Ron Simmons defeated Steve Austin

SMW @ Knoxville, TN - Civic Coliseum - October 8, 1993 at 1,100)

Tony Anthony defeated Tim Horner
Bobby Blaze defeated Chris Candido
The Bullet defeated Killer Kyle
SMW Tag Team Champions Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson fought Scott & Steve Armstrong to a no contest
SMW Heavyweight Championion Brian Lee defeated Tracy Smothers at w/ Sensational Sherri)
Tom Prichard & Jimmy Del Ray at w/ Jim Cornette) defeated Rick & Scott Steiner via disqualification when, after Rick was hit with Cornette's tennis racquet and double teamed, Scott untied the Steiners' dog, tied to the ringpost, and chased Prichard & Del Ray from the ring at Wrestling Gold: Blood, Brawls and Grudges)

WCW @ Knoxville, TN - October 1, 1993 (800)
Ice Train defeated Dick Slater
Arn Anderson defeated Bobby Eaton
WCW Tag Team Champions the Nasty Boys defeated Marcus Alexander Bagwell & 2 Cold Scorpio
Ricky Steamboat defeated Paul Orndorff
WCW US Champion Dustin Rhodes & the Shockmaster defeated Harlem Heat
Sting defeated Sid Vicious via disqualification
World Champion Rick Rude defeated Ric Flair

Here I only used dates that were reasonably close together and which included Sting on the cards in some capacity. The results are basically the same if you extend it out to include all dates in shared markets and include shows where Sting did not appear (if anything SMW would gain some ground on both Sting and WCW as a whole using that more expansive metric). It is also worth noting that the highest drawing Sting headlined show in the States in 1993 was Superbrawl from Asheville, NC. This area got SMW tv, and one of the matches on the undercard (which had been built to on both SMW and WCW tv) was the Heavenly Bodies v. the RnR Express. While Sting v. Vader was the top match, attendance in that media market was nowhere near the level it was here (about 6200 paid) at any other point that year, which makes you wonder if Sting didn't get a bit of help here from SMW. Either way the point is that a much more modest SMW was drawing comparable numbers in shared markets, which suggest that some of the excuses used to justify Sting's failure to draw are inflated.

So when you consider the fact that Sting as a top babyface drew less than his peers in a similar role, drew comparably to small regional promotions with nowhere near the budget or exposure, drew numbers that were worse than 1986 AWA (a promotion and era which no one points to as a plus on anyone's HoF resume), and that his run coincided almost exactly with the worst years of WCW in terms of drawing to house shows, with higher numbers both before and after his runs, it is really hard to view the period where Sting became known as the "face" of WCW as a positive at all. In fact if you are looking at it objectively it's hard to imagine it being anything other than obvious negative, especially since I have not been able to find any similar wrestler in history with comparable run that did so poorly at either a national or territorial level.

So what are potential positives for Sting? Well no one I know considers him an all time great worker. In fact as noted above I tend to lie him more than many of his biggest HoF advocates, and he's not someone that would make my top 100 of all time. While I would consider his work a net positive in an HoF calculus, it's hardly an overwhelming positive and he's not an "HoF level worker."

Was he an influence? I've never seen someone piece together any real argument for him on these grounds either. In fact even though I was and am a huge WCW fan, I really struggle to see any case for Sting being much of an influence at all, let alone an "HoF level influence."

So then we are left with the two things often used to tout him, he was on top for a long time, and his Crow Sting run.

Taking the "he was on top for a long time" point is always tricky because it means different things to different people. Are we talking the absolute top guy, a guy in the mix, a person who could reasonably be plugged into main events? It's open to interpretation to a degree, which is why I generally don't like it at all in HoF discussions unless there are specifics involved. I recently looked at the specifics of Sting's run on the Figure Four Board, so I will copy and paste those here:

In 88 and 89 he was not the top star or top face. He was in the mix in the upper mid-card and started to ascend up the cards toward the back end of 89. He was being groomed and got hurt and came back in the middle of the 90 at which point you could say he was the top face for more or less the entire period between then and when Hogan came back. You could argue that Flair took that spot from him in late 93, but that's debatable. In any case this period was a terrible, terrible business period. When Hogan came in he clearly slipped out of the top face role, though he still had value. For a lot of 95 he was doing stuff like working against Meng in what were effectively upper mid-card feuds to buttress Hogan dominated ppvs. When Nitro started he was clearly not the top face, and you could argue that Hogan, Savage and Flair were all above him in the pecking order, with Luger as a co-equal until the Outsiders came in. The build to Fall Brawl was great and you got the big angle there but it's worth noting that Hogan did great business v. Piper and you had stuff with Savage during this period too. Sting was a star for sure, but it's not like he was the dominate face during this period even if they were clearly building to that. Obviously there is Starcade in 97, but by the time you get into 98 Sting is starting to cool off again and by 99 he's one of many guys in a dense "main event" scene that are all sort of rotated around. Goldberg passed him along the way for sure in 98, and there were periods where DDP was pushed just as hard and was more over. 00 and 01 he's doing what? Feuding with Vampiro (I don't even remember what year that was to be honest) and against one of many guys occupying space on a heavy roster.

None of that should be taken as a wholesale dismissal of Sting's career, but rather an illustration that the length and significance as a "top guy" is often overstated. It was a good run, but it's not like he was in a Hogan or Flair position for the bulk of his career. He wasn't necessarily Kane or The Big Show either, but he falls somewhere in that murky middle.

And then there is Crow Sting. I am not interested in dismissing the significance of that run, but I do think it is important to note (as I did above) that Hogan did very strong ratings, numbers and buyrates against Piper, Savage and Luger among others during the period where Sting was in the rafters. While you could argue that Sting played a role in the success of some of those numbers, it seems like a massive stretch to me to suggest that he was largely responsible for them, and was certainly no more responsible for them than Hogan was. And really with that year Hogan is the elephant in the room because no matter how you look at it Hogan was the top star in wrestling at that point, Hogan had saved WCW from the dark business years (i.e. the Sting as top face years), Hogan was drawing huge against others, and most importantly the one time Sting was paired off against Hogan, is the one time we can point to him being an HoF level draw. That last point is not irrelevant in a world where Paul Orndorff isn't in the Hall of Fame, and people would laugh out loud at the notion that the Big Bossman or Kamala are HoF level guys. While all of those guys were the absolute right guys for their roles, and you could argue that Sting was even more perfect and successful in his role than any of them (I actually think Orndorff can be debated), it is very hard to overlook the fact that Sting as the top guy almost never even did GOOD numbers, let alone outstanding numbers, without Hogan.

Having said all of that Sting's run in 97 was great, and if someone looked at a record setting buyrate, very strong ratings, huge enthusiasm for the character, et. and said "this year is so outstanding that it offsets all the other problems with his candidacy" I would listen to the argument. The problem then is that there are a whole slew of guys with one great year and/or run of record setting business, but with decidedly better surrounding years than Sting who aren't in. Many of them aren't even on the ballot (JYD just got on this year, Bearcat Wright isn't on the ballot, Baron Leone has never been on the ballot, et). So even if I was going to concede that one great year can offset the damage of others bad years (and for the record I don't), I don't see what compelling reason there is to jump Sting to the front of the line over a bunch of candidates with a similar "great year," but much stronger supporting arguments.

Finally I would just note that even with his own category of the ballot I would regard Sting as a middle of the pack candidate at absolute best. If people want to debate the particulars of that assertion I am open to it.

ChampRamp fucked around with this message at 21:26 on Jun 28, 2014

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:17

MassRafTer: May 26, 2001; BAEST MODE!!!

Luigi Thirty posted:

If you're going to do that what about Lex Express era Luger?

That push lasted six months. Sting bombed on top for years.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:21

RacistGuidingLight: Apr 5, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

Bret Hart was the most overpushed wrt investment and return

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:22

STING 64: Oct 20, 2006

RacistGuidingLight posted:

Bret Hart was the most overpushed wrt investment and return

diesel actually

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:24

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

Oh did he I haven't really watched any WCW from 90-95.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:25

RacistGuidingLight: Apr 5, 2009; by FactsAreUseless

John Cena posted:

diesel actually

Lies.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:30

Grant DaNasty: Jul 17, 2006

dialhforhero posted:

What high school did Dean Ambrose go to? I ask this because I'm from Cincinnati and he's as old as I am, and I have it narrowed down to three schools he could have gone to based upon his biographical information. Unfortunately, finding his exact high school has not been as easy as one would think. We didn't go to high school together or anything, but it would be cool to know ipso facto.

I just googled "jonathan good cincinnati high school" and came up with this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amelia_High_School

Good luck on your Dean Ambrose quest.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:34

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 26, 2024 14:34

Luigi Thirty: Apr 30, 2006; Emergency confection port.

Diesel was the guy Vince could point to and say "look, we don't use steroids, he's legit 325!" which is clearly invaluable.

# ? Jun 28, 2014 21:38

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Sports Argument Stadium > The Hammer House: Stinger Splash Zone > Wrestling Questions That Don't Deserve Their Own Thread - "ASK THEM! >:("

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