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Mr. Wednesday posted:These priests are awesome dudes, and this shard of Enkidel's psyche is an El shard through and through. I vote this ticket.
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Jul 4, 2014 04:24
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Tomn posted:
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Jul 4, 2014 04:24
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Kohen, what was the deal with the Zviv cave near Zepath, who was the demon the goblins were serving? What about the strange armour that Tudiya sent up here? I'd like to know more about the threats that Zepath would face if I may eventually become king
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Jul 4, 2014 04:54
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1)D: I am uncertain if El existed when no other things were - we have no idea if this is true. 2)H: I do not think El made everything that was - I do think there are other powers out there that are outside El's influence, based on presences and claims that we sense. Some areas are distinctly not El's territory - I think some things exist in the world El did not create. 3)Q: Maybe. I worship El, but does the Temple truly do El's work, or the Melachim's? 4)S: Mercy is never misplaced. I believe it. 5)Y: I believe they will act when necessary. 6)Zf: Maybe you teach and guide men - but do you truly protect from the horrors that lay beyond? - it seems all men may not go to Mt. Har, if we are being honest. That doesn't seem like protecting. 7)N/A 8)Zh - no lies.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:52
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Neraren posted:She was DEFINITELY not a normal lady. She did the whole "disappear as soon as she was out of immediate eyesight" thing. She was a divine messenger, and divine messengers are Melachim. She might have been one of the minor Melachim who don't even have names, perhaps, but she was a Melachim all the same. Are Indor and Puabi Melachim? They're not normal ladies, either. Vavrek posted:I believe the idea is that the Priesthood of El have invisibility spells. This, basically. I think that the hard-to-see figures can disappear, change appearance, and possibly teleport when not directly viewed. The "melachim" sent us to confront Zobah directly only after we cornered her after defeating Prince Saul. If I remember correctly, she was standing partly behind the edge of a building when we spotted her; she disappeared behind that same building after relaying her message for us. We only got that message because we ignored Ashkalon's leader in order to march a few hundred yards to chat with a woman that no one else was able to detect.
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Jul 4, 2014 05:58
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Jesus is colourblin posted:This is an important question.
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Jul 4, 2014 06:08
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A G N T Zc Zf - maybe Only lying in that El is only one of the names the Creator might use. Otherwise true beliefs.
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Jul 4, 2014 06:32
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Ralith posted:Frankly all of Tomn's questions here are excellent, but this one in particular stands out--it seemingly puts the lie to this priest's claims... unless that was actually deliberate sabotage against the serf-keeping king. That'd be awfully devious, though. Well, I don't know if it puts the lie to the priest's claim, exactly - if a member of the Red Cross tells you that their organization wants to heal people, and then it turns out that one of their doctors was an rear end in a top hat who was in it to steal and sell meds at jacked up prices, does that mean the Red Cross guy was lying? Main reason I asked that one really was because it seems like church control is kinda loose and indirect, and indeed his own stated philosophy seems big on letting people have their way. Given that, then, and given that man is fallible, what mechanisms does the House of El have in place to prevent idiots or assholes from coming into power, or to correct/replace them if they become assholes or idiots after coming into power? On an unrelated side note, re: question 2, I'm a little surprised to see so many "Yes, El made everything" votes. We've got pretty good reason to believe that something other than El made goats, sparrows, and eagles, after all. Do we feel that El is some kind of Melachim collective consciousness, or that if El made the Melachim and the Melachim made goats then effectively El made goats, or did we just forget that Azzazel was talking up the creation of goats all day? Also, just had a thought. Diog, another question for the list and I apologize if you thought you were done with them: Is it important to you that I believe you? Why?
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Jul 4, 2014 06:38
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I might have misread the vote, I thought we were voting to say that El was ultimately responsible for basically creating everything, not that he literally created everything.
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Jul 4, 2014 06:49
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QUESTION: The temple is massive and I don't think I can explore the entire place in just one trip. Are there any places you recommending visiting within the temple? Like a really beautiful artwork or a good bar? (this place is bigger than a city; it has a bar) QUESTION: Any place you recommend visiting in Baitel? Edit: I voted yes to El made everything because all things did come from El. El made Azzazel, Azzazel made goats, goats still ultimately come from El. El is the first cause of all things. Deadly Ham Sandwich fucked around with this message at 07:06 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 07:02
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1. "El, Eternal, existed when no things were." - You say... A. Yes. 2. "He made all that is" - You say... L. Yes, though perhaps not directly in some cases. 3. "...and through this House, we do His will." - You say... Q. Maybe. 4. "From this House we teach men to be kind to each other" - You say... S. Yes. 5. "...and when they do more than can be borne, rarely and with great trepidation, we stop them from doing more harm." - You say... Y. Yes. 6. "We guide men, teach them and protect them from the horrors that lay beyond." - You say... Ze. Yes. 8. Are you intentionally lying in any portion of your response? Zh. No.
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Jul 4, 2014 07:10
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Yes to everything, truthfully.
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Jul 4, 2014 07:52
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I am uncertain to everything, telling the truth.
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Jul 4, 2014 09:17
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Mr. Wednesday posted:These priests are awesome dudes, and this shard of Enkidel's psyche is an El shard through and through. +1 vote to plan wednesday
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Jul 4, 2014 11:24
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Mr. Wednesday posted:These priests are awesome dudes, and this shard of Enkidel's psyche is an El shard through and through. A guy named Mr. Wednesday should know better than to blindly put their faith in gods.
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Jul 4, 2014 11:47
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Neraren posted:E: Ask "Has word reached you yet of what transpired at Tadmor?" Tomn posted:On my journey here I met a priest who provided his king with bad advice on El's will, telling him what he wanted to hear instead of what El wished. As a result, great calamity befell the king. How does the House of El try to prevent such things? Tomn posted:Do you think Tudiya was right to leave Bareen alone until she bought disaster to Zepath? Tomn posted:What was the nature of the rag the village priest gave us that allowed us such easy passage through Baitel's checkpoints? And why was he so willing to offer it to us with so little prompting? Tomn posted:While you try to teach men to be good, surely men are men and thus fallible in the face of great wealth and power. Is there much corruption in the church? Tomn posted:How does the House of El pass down its teachings and traditions? Through clay tablets or oral traditions? If the former, may we see these tablets someday? Tomn posted:I have seen in my travels men who have become serfs, tied to a hereditary king instead of one chosen by virtue. What is the position of the House of El on such practices? Tomn posted:How would you define what is good, and what makes an upright man? Tomn posted:How did you personally come to join the church, by the way? Tomn posted:Do you believe El will ever turn his face from us if humanity as a whole proves insufficiently righteous? quote:Tudiya once spoke of the failing faith of men, and worried that this would cause us to become vulnerable to demons. Does piety truly protect against demons? If so, how? Tomn posted:In Zepath, boys are expected to spend a month in the dangers of the wild and return only with a suitable offering before they are deemed men. What is the House of El's position on such practices? Tomn posted:Out of curiosity, what HAVE you heard of me in Baitel, before I arrived? Tomn posted:Often in my life I have met priests who knew things I would not have expected them to know, things spoken in private or things done far away. What is the source of such knowledge? Tomn posted:The statues in the courtyard just now - they each seemed unique. Do they depict individual Melachim? If so, are their names labeled anywhere and may I examine them at leisure later? I REALLY want to see if Azzazel is depicted here and how he matches up… Tomn posted:Does the House of El offer lessons in how to be cryptic? If so, can I sign up? I would like to return the favor. maxhush posted:I'd like to know more about the threats that Zepath would face if I may eventually become king Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:QUESTION: The temple is massive and I don't think I can explore the entire place in just one trip. Are there any places you recommending visiting within the temple? Like a really beautiful artwork or a good bar? (this place is bigger than a city; it has a bar) You are speaking with a priest about whether or not you are a candidate for King of Zepath. It should, hopefully, not come as a shock that certain topics are on the table right now. Perhaps he will answer some questions, clearly, he did, but there are surely that he is not interested in answering at this moment. Aharon did not actually invite you to ask him questions in a free for all, nor promise to answer questions on any topic. He is asking you a question, but as you converse, perhaps you ask him some as well? Such as those being asked. You can ask whatever you like, but if you breach a topic he does not want to discuss, he is going to decline to answer. Because of the other-worldly rules we play for asking questions, it is entirely possible you might ask many questions in a row which he does not want to discuss, though it is entirely possible, depending on the topic, that he might answer all of them. Tomn posted:Why did El create demons? Tomn posted:Do you think it possible, or even wise, to destroy all demons everywhere and free all men from their rule? maxhush posted:Kohen, what was the deal with the Zviv cave near Zepath, who was the demon the goblins were serving?
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Jul 4, 2014 13:46
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If anyone can do a count, I will update.
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Jul 4, 2014 13:46
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1.D 2.J 3.M 4.S 5.Y 6.Ze 8.Zh
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Jul 4, 2014 13:47
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quote:"Sometimes men are confused, but no, there is no corruption. No man comes to this House seeking wealth or power or other baser desires, those who do are turned away, or learn better ways." We've fought minotaurs, giant birds, insects, and lizards. We've seen giant men with the power to punch people through walls, or survive such impacts themselves. We've spoken to angels, and we've seen and used magic. This statement is, by far, the most unbelievable thing in Ur.
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Jul 4, 2014 15:34
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Bularin posted:We've fought minotaurs, giant birds, insects, and lizards. We've seen giant men with the power to punch people through walls, or survive such impacts themselves. We've spoken to angels, and we've seen and used magic. Given the track record of what happens to people who do not follow Els will, I say it isnt really that unbelievable.
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Jul 4, 2014 15:43
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Greggster posted:Given the track record of what happens to people who do not follow Els will, I say it isnt really that unbelievable. Every old religion sports a god who's all into actively smiting lawbreakers. The Jews in the old testament are carrying around their god in a box and still do things to get smote all the drat time. It's human nature. That's what makes it so unbelievable. Either he's full of poo poo, or the house of El rips free will right out of its clergy. Well, it could be atrocious writing, but the writer is named Diogenes, so I think it's safe to say that's not it.
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Jul 4, 2014 15:55
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Or maybe the clergy uses mind reading to weed out corruption. All it takes is a few supermen not becoming corrupt, and we know of at least one that is here.
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Jul 4, 2014 15:58
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LLSix posted:Or maybe the clergy uses mind reading to weed out corruption. All it takes is a few supermen not becoming corrupt, and we know of at least one that is here. A few men of great power not becoming at all corrupt. Right. Even the melachim fight. We've seen it. We've also seen them break their own rules. "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men.... There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it."
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Jul 4, 2014 16:04
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Would this pretty much be confirmation that Ish is actually reporting to Baitel about us, as per what Bareen said? After all, we only told him exactly what she said to us, and this dude knows about it too. Unless he can bypass the fruit drink somehow I suppose e: Ask how he knows exactly what Bareen said to us alpaca diseases fucked around with this message at 16:08 on Jul 4, 2014 |
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Jul 4, 2014 16:05
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"We have no evidence that corruption in the House of El doesn't exist, therefore it must exist!"
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Jul 4, 2014 16:24
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Inserting a hefty dose of doubt! I am all for the church. I believe El exists and i believe in angels. But i will not take everything at face value! 1. "El, Eternal, existed when no things were." - You say... C. I don't know. 2. "He made all that is" - You say... I. I don't know. 3. "...and through this House, we do His will." - You say... P. I am uncertain. 4. "From this House we teach men to be kind to each other" - You say... S. Yes. 5. "...and when they do more than can be borne, rarely and with great trepidation, we stop them from doing more harm." - You say... Za. I don't know. 6. "We guide men, teach them and protect them from the horrors that lay beyond." - You say... Ze. I am uncertain. 7. Diog will try to craft an intelligible response from your expressed views. If you want to try to write one comprehensive response here, fill in. Cool! 8. Are you intentionally lying in any portion of your response? Zh. No. C I P S Za Ze
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Jul 4, 2014 17:01
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paragon1 posted:"We have no evidence that corruption in the House of El doesn't exist, therefore it must exist!" Enkidel is a paranoid schizophrenic.
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Jul 4, 2014 17:04
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Follow-up questions!Diogines posted:Aharon says to you "It acted as a marker to let the guards know your group was safe. It was given to you, because your group was and is." Why then did the guards think that we were unsafe to begin with? Diogines posted:"Sometimes men are confused, but no, there is no corruption. No man comes to this House seeking wealth or power or other baser desires, those who do are turned away, or learn better ways." What sort of confusion do you mean here? Diogines posted:"All of our number are taught. A sad few disregard their lessons, believing what they wish to be true, instead of what they know to be true, some even convince themselves there is no difference." You say that some men believe what they wish to be true - could not some of these delude themselves into thinking that wealth gained through unrighteous means can be put to righteous ends, or that by glorifying themselves they would glorify El? If your teachings can fail, cannot your shield against the corrupt fail also? How can you tell when a man comes to the House of El in search of wealth and power? What makes you choose to turn some such men away, and to accept others in to teach them better? Should a man's baser desires take hold of him while he is in the House of El, how is his behavior and thought rectified? Why is the House of El so insistent on not interfering with the affairs of kings, even going so far as to disavow judgement on their practices? Could not great good be done even with no more than an approving or disapproving word? I suspect I know the answer to this one already, but I want to get it out in the open. Labaras was both first king and first priest, and led his people both in secular and religious affairs. Why do his descendents who ruled new cities not do the same, and lead both their cities and their temples? Can very strongly Blooded men, who can see and do things that others cannot begin to imagine, still be truly called men - or are they something else entirely? Never let it be said I pull punches for the House of El - everybody gets questioned alike. I'll know what they think, damnit, whether they're good or evil or anything in-between! Bularin posted:A few men of great power not becoming at all corrupt. Right. It's worth noting that the Melachim weren't CORRUPT, though. The rulebreaker we saw tended to be for fairly unselfish ends, and even the one major case of rulebreaking that might have been selfish (enjoying the pleasures of mortal life) was done in a remarkably unselfish manner. Oh dear, a divine being pretending to be a slave, how can they put themselves on their high horse with such infamy? And even then in the end he readily sacrificed much of himself to help another. So far as can be told, the Melachim argue mostly over HOW to do good - pretty much none of those we've seen seem to disagree significantly with the fundamental idea that they SHOULD do good and avoid evil, though. The closest you get is Azzazel, but even through his irreverence he's apparently values virtue. They're not really a great case study of corruption, I think, though they may serve for red tape. Also worth noting is that Tudiya is easily the strongest Zepathan native and could probably beat up everyone else in Zepath single-handedly if he wanted to. Despite this, he is one of the chillest people in Zepath, and by the standards of his culture upright almost to the point of fault. In fact, in our travels it seems like Bloodedness correlates fairly directly with how chill someone is, with the debatable exception of Ishamal. In a world of literal superhumans, I'm not sure how far arguing over pure "human nature" is going to get you. Sure, human nature tends to lead to great corruption when given great power, but human nature also doesn't tend to let people see souls, lift mountains, sense the fundamental fabric of reality, and go without pooping. Besides, even if you do believe that human nature means that the great are inevitably evil in some way, that doesn't automatically lead to corruption in the "bribes and power-seeking" fashion. There are great men in our history who were unquestionably flawed and even in some cases evil, while at the same time being incorruptible or drat near as makes no difference. Someone can be a complete rear end in a top hat and do horrible things to people in the name of something or other while living a life of personal austerity and strictly-defined personal limits on power.
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Jul 4, 2014 17:19
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QUESTION: I got some really good advice the last time I asked this, so I'll ask you, please share your wisdom with me. And if the priest asks what the other advice was, tell him the line about drinking when you can, eat when you can, and "sleep" when you can.
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Jul 4, 2014 17:25
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Tomn posted:It's worth noting that the Melachim weren't CORRUPT, though. The rulebreaker we saw tended to be for fairly unselfish ends, and even the one major case of rulebreaking that might have been selfish (enjoying the pleasures of mortal life) was done in a remarkably unselfish manner. If the angels break the rules, why would you believe that men wouldn't?
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Jul 4, 2014 17:48
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Bularin posted:If the angels break the rules, why would you believe that men wouldn't? Because the point was whether they broke the rules for to satisfy greed and ambition or some other reason. Unless you really want to argue that "corruption" means "failure to abide by every single niggling bureaucratic law." Oh no, I removed the tag on my mattress, I guess that means I'm corrupt!
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Jul 4, 2014 17:56
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Bularin posted:If the angels break the rules, why would you believe that men wouldn't? Guys, I got it: instead of directly accusing the clergy of hiding corruption, we ask How do you deal with differences of opinions
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Jul 4, 2014 17:57
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Tomn posted:Because the point was whether they broke the rules for to satisfy greed and ambition or some other reason. Unless you really want to argue that "corruption" means "failure to abide by every single niggling bureaucratic law." No, the point is that El's supernatural bully boys don't follow the rules and don't get smote. It puts the lie to the idea that divine intervention immediately puts down anyone who goes off the straight and narrow.
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Jul 4, 2014 18:08
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Bularin posted:No, the point is that El's supernatural bully boys don't follow the rules and don't get smote. It puts the lie to the idea that divine intervention immediately puts down anyone who goes off the straight and narrow. I'm genuinely curious, did you really believe that I was suggesting that literally everybody who broke any rule for any reason would get an immediate lightning bolt to the rear end and that was why there wasn't widespread and systemic corruption in the church?
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Jul 4, 2014 18:24
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Bularin posted:We've fought minotaurs, giant birds, insects, and lizards. We've seen giant men with the power to punch people through walls, or survive such impacts themselves. We've spoken to angels, and we've seen and used magic. To be fair to the priest, it was a ridiculous question to ask. Even if there was massive corruption running rampant in the temple, the priest wouldn't have told some random stranger he just met for the first time in his life. And certainly not while on duty. Yes on trying to look up Azzazel's statue (and that of other familiar faces) in the courtyard, though I do not expect to find anything useful. He told us never to mention him; he looks like the type that likes his privacy.
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Jul 4, 2014 18:32
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If someone could count, it would be helpful.
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Jul 4, 2014 18:33
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Tomn posted:I'm genuinely curious, did you really believe that I was suggesting that literally everybody who broke any rule for any reason would get an immediate lightning bolt to the rear end and that was why there wasn't widespread and systemic corruption in the church? Actually, that line of thought started with Greggster stating that smiting insures the straight and narrow. Regardless, you're tilting at straw men now. The idea that there isn't "widespread and systemic corruption in the church" isn't on the field. The statement that there is absolutely no corruption in the church is, and that falls under bullshit, divine brainwashing, or poor writing/understanding of human nature. Pick your poison.
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Jul 4, 2014 19:12
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fake edit: apparently we are looking at the same issue.Bularin posted:We've fought minotaurs, giant birds, insects, and lizards. We've seen giant men with the power to punch people through walls, or survive such impacts themselves. We've spoken to angels, and we've seen and used magic. Perhaps by 'corruption' the priest means systemic corruption, and he uses 'confusion' as a polite euphemism for individual troublemakers.
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Jul 4, 2014 19:32
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Tomn posted:How can you tell when a man comes to the House of El in search of wealth and power? Tomn posted:What makes you choose to turn some such men away, and to accept others in to teach them better? Tomn posted:Should a man's baser desires take hold of him while he is in the House of El, how is his behavior and thought rectified? Tomn posted:Why is the House of El so insistent on not interfering with the affairs of kings, even going so far as to disavow judgement on their practices? Could not great good be done even with no more than an approving or disapproving word? Tomn posted:Labaras was both first king and first priest, and led his people both in secular and religious affairs. Why do his descendents who ruled new cities not do the same, and lead both their cities and their temples? Tomn posted:Can very strongly Blooded men, who can see and do things that others cannot begin to imagine, still be truly called men - or are they something else entirely? I am sticking any question along the lines of "second guessing El's temple" in the "This guy is interviewing you to be King and just asked if you accepted El's teachings, are you going to grill him about the security and/or corruption of El's temple" category. Please weigh in if you want to ask these. Tomn posted:Why then did the guards think that we were unsafe to begin with? Deadly Ham Sandwich posted:QUESTION: I got some really good advice the last time I asked this, so I'll ask you, please share your wisdom with me. Horrible Lurkbeast posted:Guys, I got it: instead of directly accusing the clergy of hiding corruption, we ask How do you deal with differences of opinions
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Jul 4, 2014 19:42
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Bularin posted:A few men of great power not becoming at all corrupt. Right. Empty Quote
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Jul 4, 2014 20:22
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