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DrPop posted:Yeah. Arael and Armisael also seem to be doing more of a "hey you humans what are you, let's talk oh whoops you killed me" than following some MUST DESTROY HUMANS programming. hahahah but WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE REALLY????????????? 
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Jul 30, 2014 21:31
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DrPop posted:Yeah. Arael and Armisael also seem to be doing more of a "hey you humans what are you, let's talk oh whoops you killed me" than following some MUST DESTROY HUMANS programming. And their attempts at friendly communication did more damage to the pilots than all the other Angels' death rays combined. SYMBOLISM
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Jul 30, 2014 21:44
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It's not their fault. They were trying to chat up emotionally vulnerable, horribly hosed up people. Maybe if they talked to someone less hosed up than Asuka (wouldn't be hard to find someone like that) it wouldn't have turned out so bad. Also humans are kinda like some giant glitch apparently and the Angels are just trying to reboot things. The Angel Antivirus being nice enough to talk to the glitch is a polite gesture it didn't have to try. Szmitten posted:SEELE misled him. They were loving him over. But then what the gently caress is the point? Are you saying Kaworu couldn't have caused Third Impact anyway because he needs Adam and not Lilith to do it? But his entire sacrifice and telling Shinji to kill him was because he had chosen not to end the world. If I'm reading you right, he couldn't have ended the world anyway.
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Jul 30, 2014 21:57
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Well if you look at it one way, kaworu could control one of the most dangerous and powerful weapons on the planet for probably as long as he wanted, and also had his own at field. But basically the reason he died is because angels and humans can't coexist, he had to die.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:02
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NikkolasKing posted:It's not their fault. They were trying to chat up emotionally vulnerable, horribly hosed up people. Maybe if they talked to someone less hosed up than Asuka (wouldn't be hard to find someone like that) it wouldn't have turned out so bad. Humans aren't a glitch exactly. They were just not meant to be there. Adam landed first and was going to make angels, then Lilith landed and apparently shut Adam down. By jamming a lance into him maybe, since those are apparently designed to put angels into sleep mode.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:03
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Omg shut up with the video game crap.
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Jul 30, 2014 22:05
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NikkolasKing posted:But then what the gently caress is the point? Are you saying Kaworu couldn't have caused Third Impact anyway because he needs Adam and not Lilith to do it? The point was to kill the last Angel. Even if he could start a Third Impact (whether Angels could do anything to Lilith at all is almost explicitly a "Nobody knows" thing, which is author speak for "Don't think about it, this isn't the story we're telling"), it's not one that SEELE or anyone would want because there would be no Instrumentality involved. Impacts and Instrumentality are not the same thing. Second/Third Impact are the same: an explosion followed by the release of an anti-AT Field. Instrumentality is the process that MIGHT come after under the right circumstances or combination of Adam/Lilith/clones/souls where one individual or more attain godhood and rejig the laws of life. Whether he could do it or not doesn't really matter because despite all this chatter Eva isn't a hard sci-fi show, it's very mystical and arbitrary and is all about audience perspective and the characters and their viewpoints. All that matters is that SEELE lied and Kaworu died. I understand the frustration at what the point is, and like I keep saying, the shift in the story into Instrumentality throws the previous 23 episodes under the bus. Most of Evangelion makes a lot of sense if you know it inside and out, some parts of Evangelion are irrevocably broken because of contradictions in the mythology and misremembering and turning a monster of the week show into a progressively deeper thing and surfacing some of the weirder stuff that doesn't entirely gel with whichever episode aired 4 months ago. I know that last paragraph and "It just is" is a lovely response but the reason I keep posting in this thread is because I'm kind of an anomoly in the Eva community in that I've seen and read a lot of poo poo, and know a fair bit by heart, but instead of leaning too far into "Everything has a meaning so fanwank something" I tend to acknowledge "Oh, this is clearly a gently caress up". Eva can be really neat, and it's ambiguity and loving weird distorted mysticism is one of it's greatest strengths, but that ambiguity is also a facade for some tenuous poo poo. Anno's not trolling the audience, Ritsuko wasn't raped by SEELE, and ADV/Manga are bad at their jobs. Just try to enjoy it for what it is. It's not too deep for anyone. Slime posted:Humans aren't a glitch exactly. They were just not meant to be there. Adam landed first and was going to make angels, then Lilith landed and apparently shut Adam down. By jamming a lance into him maybe, since those are apparently designed to put angels into sleep mode. SHISHKABOB posted:the video game crap
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Jul 30, 2014 23:03
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I'm sorry I don't mean to be so hostile. My emotional reaction stems from my ignorance of the video game material but that is no reason to get all huffy about it.
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Jul 30, 2014 23:52
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But you're right the video game stuff is stupid
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Jul 31, 2014 00:01
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One of my favorite things about Rebuild is it made all the mythology completely bewildering and inaccessible again. I read everything I can about this poo poo and even I have no idea what's going on, it's wonderful!
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Jul 31, 2014 00:04
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Yeah that whole First Race thing wasn't even mentioned in EOE. I thought it was and that it was all my own fault for being so horrifically confused by the movie that I missed all this info. But, nope, it's just from a dumb game only released in Japan. I don't mind the plot so much - again, it's more the storytelling than the actual story that causes the problems here. Eva's story is pretty straightforward and the only reason we and probably thousands of other people besides us have been discussing this poo poo for over a decade is because it's so poorly told. I'm hoping things will be easier to digest and understand when in manga form.
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Jul 31, 2014 00:07
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"Is the background material more or less complete than Wookiepedia" is like, the least relevant way to measure whether writing is good or bad ever conceived. The storytelling is good primarily because a) the characters have nuanced, relatable motivations for everything they do, revealed naturally as events test those motivations and b) animation being a visual medium, tons of information is conveyed visually. Evangelion pays an incredible amount of attention to body language, as well as all the more obvious symbolic imagery. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 00:16 on Jul 31, 2014 |
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Jul 31, 2014 00:10
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NikkolasKing posted:Yeah that whole First Race thing wasn't even mentioned in EOE. I thought it was and that it was all my own fault for being so horrifically confused by the movie that I missed all this info. But, nope, it's just from a dumb game only released in Japan. Nah, it's more that people are desperately trying to identify poo poo that isn't important. The actual story is straightforward.
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Jul 31, 2014 00:10
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SHISHKABOB posted:I'm sorry I don't mean to be so hostile. My emotional reaction stems from my ignorance of the video game material but that is no reason to get all huffy about it. I think Szmitten was agreeing with you  But yeah, now that I've rewatched the series after a decade and checked out the Wikis, I've decided that I don't give a gently caress what that video game said, and the show/movies are the only "canon" to me.
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Jul 31, 2014 00:41
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DrPop posted:I think Szmitten was agreeing with you I wasn't speaking directly to Szmitten I was speaking in a general sense.
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Jul 31, 2014 00:42
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SHISHKABOB posted:I'm sorry I don't mean to be so hostile. My emotional reaction stems from my ignorance of the video game material but that is no reason to get all huffy about it. Nonono, you misread me, the video game stuff literally put an end to that theory for one reason or another. I wasn't digging at you NikkolasKing posted:Yeah that whole First Race thing wasn't even mentioned in EOE. I thought it was and that it was all my own fault for being so horrifically confused by the movie that I missed all this info. But, nope, it's just from a dumb game only released in Japan. Whichever the flashback episode was when Gendo and Fuyutski go down into the Geofront they make a passing remark that it it's artificial and predates man, and given the presence of everything else it's kinda sorta left open to be what you make of it. The game is a weird little thing because it's all about the lore and the mechanics of the mysticism (of which I just poo-pooed in my previous post) compiled from several interviews with Anno so that they could make a semi-CYOA game and have different scenarios play out and have the information be an unlockable side extra. It's used in the fandom as a "Word of God" canon thing, and some of it's neat and it's a good reference point if someone asks "What's this thing/Why's this", but it's ultimately background stuff that isn't in the show/movies. Again, they're interviewing the dude years after it ended and some stuff contradicts. On the other hand, this: 
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Jul 31, 2014 00:43
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If one of the SEELE voice actors in the English dub was done by a George W. Bush impersonator, would you prefer it over the sub/"original" dub?
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Aug 1, 2014 03:12
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DrPop posted:If one of the SEELE voice actors in the English dub was done by a George W. Bush impersonator, would you prefer it over the sub/"original" dub? Leave everything else in Japanese and sub it but put that in with no explanation or warning.
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Aug 1, 2014 03:18
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:Leave everything else in Japanese and sub it but put that in with no explanation or warning. Yes
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Aug 1, 2014 03:20
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Just from the first volume, Manga Shinji seems very different from Anime Shinji. He has this cool "I am not afraid to die and will not let my father call me a coward!" line when he first gets in Unit 01 and then later o he bitches at Misato and then after this he cries when she praiss him. Anime Shinji gets a rep for being whiny but he was really rather reserved and kept everything bottled up. Manga Shinji is mouthy, letting out both the good and the bad. At least as far as I can tell. I like it though.
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Aug 1, 2014 22:03
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NikkolasKing posted:Just from the first volume, Manga Shinji seems very different from Anime Shinji. He has this cool "I am not afraid to die and will not let my father call me a coward!" line when he first gets in Unit 01 and then later o he bitches at Misato and then after this he cries when she praiss him. Shinji isn't supposed to be cool and the manga one just seems to be missing the entire point of the character.
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Aug 5, 2014 13:36
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But he isn't cool, that was my point. he had that cool line but later on he just acts like a bitch and then he cries wheN misato praises him. Manga Shinji just feels more like a normal teenager. He can talk the talk but maybe he can't walk the walk. He's also open about his feelings, whether those feelings are typical "no one understands or appreciates me" or something more touching, like when he runs away the firstt ime and he has a hug with Misato at the train station. He thought she didn't care about him at all beyond his usefulness as an Eva Pilot so their little reunion when he found that she did in fact care about him as a person was nice. I like reading Sadamoto's little notes and I think he explains it well:    He makes a good point that "his" Shinji is truly his just as Anno's Shinji is truly Anno's. They both write themselves into the character and since Sadamoto and Anno aren't clones, they naturally have different perspectives and impressions even about the exact same thing. I am on Volume 5 of the manga at the moment, tearing right along and I liked the first substantial change we got with Asuka's debut being in Japan as opposed to off on that boat. Volume 1-3 had some subtle changes, like revealing Shinji was with his aunt and uncle (I did wonder where he was pre-anime) and a few flashbacks or whatever else but it was still 99% the same. Maybe that bit with Asuka is a sign of the manga diverging a bit more. i already know of a few other somewhat significant deviations to come.
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Aug 5, 2014 18:46
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The manga just completely "misses it". The Kaworu arc in particular is completely terrible, due to Sadamoto's fear of "teh gay". And let's not even get into what he did to Gendo...
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Aug 5, 2014 18:54
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I've heard of Manga Gendo, not a popular chap in any Eva talk I've ever witnessed. I'm intensely curious to see how his and Shinji's rrelationship plays out in this continuity. I already kinda had the ending spoiled in a way but that's nothing new. Endings are often spoiled so I just shrug and say "what about the middle?" I want to see how things get to that point and I don't know anything about that. And I've also heard of Evil Manga Kaworu. That was a huge turnoff for me for a long while since, as you said, it seems to completely miss the point tha tKaworu was the one good thing in Shinji's life. But I'll be honest, I'm enjoying the manga quite a lot. I said I liked Sadamoto's interviews and he made an excellent point in my mind about the difference between Anime and Manga Eva:  Quite frankly, I think he's 100% spot on with his approach. Not being "bombarded" with "information" (most of which is nonsensical and pointlessly convoluted) is helping me enjoy the series a helluva lot more. Granted there are 9 more volumes to go but at this point in time I think the manga's pacing is helping me digest things better.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:01
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Man, I totally disagree with this casual dissing of the manga, but we already know that. Shinji isn't a "cool guy" in it, Gendo's fine and what's the big deal with the Gendo A.T. field stuff compared to any other Eva wackiness we've seen in the past, and never once did I get the feeling from the Kaworu arc that Sadamoto was scared of "teh gay". I mean, Shinji being perturbed and turned off by Kaworu is frankly understandable, he's a mysterious figure who shows up out of nowhere to spew dreamy existential stuff at him, strangle a kitten to death with his bare hands, and then isn't completely horrified when Asuka is being mindraped (though Kaworu wasn't celebrating it either, he's just an Angel and has perhaps a slightly inappropriate reaction). And ultimately, if I remember right, Shinji ends up regretting the way he was initially standoffish and creeped out by Kaworu. I mean, there was always a sort of creepy not-human "other" element to Kaworu Nagisa, I feel like it's pretty kneejerk and unnecessarily grasping to just go "SADAMOTO HATES GAYS!!!!!" I remember when I read the Kaworu arc Sadamoto had a bit at the end discussing Mark Twain's The Mysterious Stranger, a touch I liked as well. And he's not "Evil Kaworu". These are all oversimplications and generalizations, based on (I have to assume), most of you guys not really remembering the manga very freshly. Yeah, Kaworu is creepier compared to his anime iteration. Yeah, Shinji is a little more vocal compared to his anime iteration. But that doesn't make Kaworu "evil" or Shinji a "cool guy", not once did I get either of those vibes from reading the manga at all. But that's just me. The Eva manga is different, certainly, but I don't feel like Sadamoto "missed the point" or committed any huge travesties/disappointments (except the ending). I appreciated it the way I appreciate Rebuild, another opportunity for a telling (though boy he really blew it with the ending). Oh well, to each their own. I just didn't get any of those vibes from it. Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 19:33 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 19:30
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Well I haven't read most of the manga yet. I'm just going by what I heard. Plus, as I aid, I'm enjoying the manga a lot so I kinda doubt I'll dislike Gendo or Kaworu as much as some do. I also have high hopes for the manga's ending because I really can't imagine anything being worse than End of Evangelion. I really hated that movie.
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Aug 5, 2014 19:55
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End of evangelion is one of the best films of the 1990s, and one of the best animated films of all time
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Aug 5, 2014 19:58
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NikkolasKing posted:I also have high hopes for the manga's ending because I really can't imagine anything being worse than End of Evangelion. I really hated that movie. I swear to god if you start this again
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Aug 5, 2014 20:02
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You know, rereading the Kaworu arc, Kaworu isn't really depicted as a bad guy at all. He's curious and observing humans and he's a bit creepy because he's not human and doesn't completely comprehend them, but it's not like Shinji necessarily hates him (just gets confused and shy when he gets all up in his personal space nude and stuff). Kaworu also requests Shinji to kill him in the end with all that underground Terminal Dogma stuff that happens, telling him he'll do it if he has the slightest feelings for him.   I mean, later on Shinji even runs to Kaworu's place as a place of solace when everything goes wrong, and... wait a minute there...   yeah, there IS that. Dammit SADAMOTOOOOOOO!  There is also this page way way after that scene, at the end of the Kaworu arc, which probably would have been okay without the "I knew I shouldn't like a guy like that". :/ I mean, maybe it's more about Shinji's hangups (since he comes to be attracted to Kaworu despite them), but yeah Sadamoto did probably drop the ball there. 
Punkin Spunkin fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 20:41
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Dred Cosmonaut posted:End of evangelion is one of the best films of the 1990s, and one of the best animated films of all time I've said it before and I'll say it again, the 'Komm Susser Tod' beginning of Instrumentality is probably my favourite animated sequence of all time, slightly dodgy late 90's CG and all. In fact the film is full of absolutely breathtaking imagery; the mass produced Eva's circling the exposed geofront, the crucifixion-analogue of Unit 1, the post-Instrumentality red sea wasteland. Sakurazuka fucked around with this message at 21:23 on Aug 5, 2014 |
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Aug 5, 2014 21:15
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It's about Sadamoto's hang-ups, really. The idea makes him all icky, so he changes the story so that it's really clear that homosexuality is wrong. And then there's the nice part where it's explained that this was all because of Rei's feeling that got transferred to Kaworu or some poo poo.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:15
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Shinji is the most infamously depressive and self-loathing anime teenager, is it really that weird he would feel ashamed about his possible homo or bisexuality? Also Kaworu is a mysterious alien guy who just happens to be charming and gay for the protagonist, the manga just did a better job at showing us that he was a creepy alien dude and not this platonic ideal of a tragic antagonist. And I say this as a guy whose favorite male character from the franchise is Kaworu. Please don't idolize creepy alien dudes, thanks.
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Aug 5, 2014 21:49
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MonsieurChoc posted:It's about Sadamoto's hang-ups, really. The idea makes him all icky, so he changes the story so that it's really clear that homosexuality is wrong. And then there's the nice part where it's explained that this was all because of Rei's feeling that got transferred to Kaworu or some poo poo. Yeah, I remember reading about Sadamoto's weird obsession about Kaworu and Shinji's relationship. If I remember right(I could be completely, 100% wrong), he based the manga relationship with a relationship he had with a transfer student in his life or something but he kept swearing that it was completely "no homo".
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Aug 5, 2014 21:54
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I haven't watched EVA because the first episode never grabbed me, and when I tried to watch the first Rebuild movie, I wasn't really grabbed either, and I thought the naked Rei scene was kinda creepy. Plus I was under the impression that the entire series was just pretentious nonsense, but does Shinji really have some confusion over his sexuality and start falling for Kaworu in the anime? Because that's actually pretty neat and makes the series sounds like it goes deeper than just meaningless religious symbolism thrown everywhere, and might make me give it another chance.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:33
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Sure
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Aug 5, 2014 22:35
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Butt Ghost posted:I haven't watched EVA because the first episode never grabbed me, and when I tried to watch the first Rebuild movie, I wasn't really grabbed either, and I thought the naked Rei scene was kinda creepy. Plus I was under the impression that the entire series was just pretentious nonsense, but does Shinji really have some confusion over his sexuality and start falling for Kaworu in the anime? Because that's actually pretty neat and makes the series sounds like it goes deeper than just meaningless religious symbolism thrown everywhere, and might make me give it another chance. I would say it's more that Kaworu is the first unambiguously nice person Shinji has ever known. Misato, Kaji, even Rei and Asuka on their better days, are just self-interested. Oh it's self-interest in the perfectly human sense that their lives are hosed up and they are simply trying to be happy but at the end of the day Shinji can't help but feel like he's being used by all of them and that's true to a greater or lesser extent depending on the person. Kaworu, not being human, has no real self-interest or trauma to speak of. He's not getting close to Shinji as a way to cope with his awful past. He just likes Shinji for being Shinji. Also because he's not human he doesn't understand that whole "stay out of my bubble" thing people have. It is off-putting to Shinji at first but he's more or less okay with it because he knows Kaworu means nothing bad by it. My personal take? (and this is coming from a guy who barely remembers anything in the show) I don't think Shinji was gay or bisexual or anything. It's just that Kaworu was nice to him and at this point Shinji's life was going down the shitter. Kaworu was a...soothing presence in his utterly chaotic life. Not that you can't read homosexual subtext into the whole thing - you easily could. But that's just not how I felt about it.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:48
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Butt Ghost posted:I haven't watched EVA because the first episode never grabbed me, and when I tried to watch the first Rebuild movie, I wasn't really grabbed either, and I thought the naked Rei scene was kinda creepy. Plus I was under the impression that the entire series was just pretentious nonsense, but does Shinji really have some confusion over his sexuality and start falling for Kaworu in the anime? Because that's actually pretty neat and makes the series sounds like it goes deeper than just meaningless religious symbolism thrown everywhere, and might make me give it another chance. Man, and I thought I was gay for gay stuff. Serious answer? Not really, at the point where Kaworu shows up, he's pretty much the only person who actually treats Shinji like a human being and there's maybe some gay stuff but it's mostly just Shinji being amazed that someone actually likes him. Also that all happens in episode 24 out of 26 and is the last 'normal' episode before the infamous ending.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:49
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Butt Ghost posted:I haven't watched EVA because the first episode never grabbed me, and when I tried to watch the first Rebuild movie, I wasn't really grabbed either, and I thought the naked Rei scene was kinda creepy. Plus I was under the impression that the entire series was just pretentious nonsense, but does Shinji really have some confusion over his sexuality and start falling for Kaworu in the anime? Because that's actually pretty neat and makes the series sounds like it goes deeper than just meaningless religious symbolism thrown everywhere, and might make me give it another chance. The thing with Kaworu is rather ambiguous, and I think deliberately. Evangelion is actually a really well-crafted series, it explores some pretty interesting themes and it deconstructs a lot of mecha anime trope. The mysticism and conspiracies are a sideshow, with the true main plot being the exploration of the character's psychology. And Rei is meant to be creepy, a kind of prescient commentary on the way anime (and media in general) sexualizes teenage girls. IMHO, the series is definitely worth watching. Although be aware it takes some time before the series goes off the deep end, as the first arc is meant to lull the viewer into a false sense of security.
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Aug 5, 2014 22:53
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Butt Ghost posted:I haven't watched EVA because the first episode never grabbed me, and when I tried to watch the first Rebuild movie, I wasn't really grabbed either, and I thought the naked Rei scene was kinda creepy. Plus I was under the impression that the entire series was just pretentious nonsense, but does Shinji really have some confusion over his sexuality and start falling for Kaworu in the anime? Because that's actually pretty neat and makes the series sounds like it goes deeper than just meaningless religious symbolism thrown everywhere, and might make me give it another chance. no
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Aug 5, 2014 22:56
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Okay, that sounds pretty cool. I was lead to believe the show was trying to be deep by throwing in religious imagery for no reason, and that all the teenager tits were just fanservice. oh
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Aug 5, 2014 23:00
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