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Dolash posted:I have to believe that would be enough to see some serious sanctions out of Europe EU sanctions against Russia in a nutshell: "You need to stop doing lucrative business with the evil Russians. On our side, though, we will continue business as usual with them because our economy would be hurt otherwise. But you, you need to stop. Our economy won't be hurt if it's you who takes the hit, so it has to be you."
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Aug 2, 2014 15:38
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ThirdPartyView posted:Any reason everyone but Putin is getting sanctioned? Putin threatened to nuke everyone if the money/assets (he denies exists) gets touched? One, Putin is the head of state, so going after him can be seen as an attack on the state as a whole. Two, it helps breed resentment between Putin and the other oligarchs, since they're taking a beating and he isn't. Makes them more likely for them gang up on Putin for changes in policy.
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Aug 2, 2014 15:42
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Adar posted:Neither side cares about "hard evidence" of that type; one already knows the truth Who needs evidence when you know the truth! 
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Aug 2, 2014 15:49
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Deteriorata posted:One, Putin is the head of state, so going after him can be seen as an attack on the state as a whole. He's made many of those oligarchs. He's been in charge of the country for 14 years give or take. The oligarchs aren't going to go against him. Causing a slowdown in the economy, increased inflation, rise in unemployment, those things will force Putin to negotiate. The oligarchs aren't going to be pressuring anyone, most likely they're just doing their best to get all their assets out of the country and all their cash converted into either dollars or euros before the rouble gets devalued more.
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Aug 2, 2014 16:20
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Somewhat related to this thread: looks like there has been some fighting over Nagorno-Karabakh between Azerbaijan and Armenia. Reports of 15 dead  http://www.miamiherald.com/2014/08/02/4268106/outbreak-of-fighting-in-nagorno.html
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Aug 2, 2014 17:19
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Re: rumored Merkel deal - how could Putin agree to stop funding and directly supporting the separatists with military power when he doesn't seem to have admitted at any point that he has actually done so?
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Aug 2, 2014 17:36
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Zwabu posted:Re: rumored Merkel deal - how could Putin agree to stop funding and directly supporting the separatists with military power when he doesn't seem to have admitted at any point that he has actually done so? Some euphemistic language and an "understanding". If they breach said unwritten understanding then Germany will act like Russia has broken the ambiguous language of the agreement, Russia will claim they didn't, and everyone goes off in a huff.
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Aug 2, 2014 17:51
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Dolash posted:Some euphemistic language and an "understanding". If they breach said unwritten understanding then Germany will act like Russia has broken the ambiguous language of the agreement, Russia will claim they didn't, and everyone goes off in a huff. Yeah. It doesn't seem like any deal with any chance of success would be under the current situation of a complete lack of candor from one of the parties.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:01
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Photos from the pro-war rally in Moscow that gathered around 1000-1500 people MURDERERS OF THE RUSSIAN AND UKRAINIAN CHILDREN: KOLOMOISKY WALTZMANN (fringe propaganda insists that it is the real last name of Petr Poroshenko, #antifascism, amirite?) GROISMANN YATZENUK  "this is going on the first train to Donetzk, honest"  Papa Dugin     ///// Popular non-fiction, bottom right in the second picture is "End the Fed" by Ron Paul    and literature  LIEUTENANT FROM THE FUTURE (this is Minister of Defense Sergei Shoigu capturing Yatsenuk and Turchinov)  UKRAINE IN BLOOD: BANDERIAN GENOCIDE  RED STARS OVER MAIDAN  WILD FIELD 2017: ON THE RUINS OF UKRAINE  expectations/reality fatherboxx fucked around with this message at 18:33 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 2, 2014 18:24
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OddObserver posted:Somewhat related to this thread: looks like there has been some fighting over Nagorno-Karabakh between Azerbaijan and Armenia. Reports of 15 dead N-K holds the rare distinction of hosting a civil war among two provinces of the same state, starting three years before the USSR disintegrated. The conflict has elements of Crimea, Iran-Iraq and Chechnya with a dash of India-Pakistan thrown in. For the 95% of the thread that hasn't heard of it, a brief background goes something like this: -the region in question was 75% Armenian and 25% Azeri/other, but landlocked within Azerbaijan -Armenians are Orthodox Christian and have a genocide by Turks in their not so distant past; Azerbaijan is Muslim and the language/people are closely related to Turkish/Turkey, which does not help matters -due to some weird 1920's politics it got given to Azerbaijan -in the 80's, the regional government held a vote to secede and go over to Armenia; this was, by all accounts, legitimate -at the same time, the N-K region accused the Azeris of a wide variety of discrimination/ethnic cleansing; this was probably exaggerated but it did happen on some scale -the Soviets, followed by Russia, tried to mediate with no effect -Azerbaijan invaded to stop secession -Armenia counter-invaded and wound up winning against superior odds; both sides had a ton of mercs, jihadis and various other third parties fighting for them, including Russia, who supplied Armenia and intervened against a possible Turkish counter-counter-invasion but also had any number of mercs/actual Russian troops who wanted to get paid/misc. people in uniform on the Azeri side. At one point the same Russian airforce division fought on both sides at the same time. This was pre-Internet and neither side had much of an airforce so there aren't any extant atrocity videos (that I know of!) but there were plenty of massacres and ethnic cleansing to go around. -it's now another one of those "self-autonomous regions" guarded by -the border is heavily militarized and no one's ever really stopped shooting It's unlikely to escalate into full blown war for the simple reason that I don't think Azerbaijan, a dictatorship ruled by a non-idiot, is idiotic enough to start one, but you never know.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:25
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fatherboxx posted:Photos from the pro-war rally in Moscow that gathered around 1000-1500 people Russia is a powder-keg.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:26
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Ah, great. Dugin actually has an audience. Fuckin' A.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:40
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Nonsense posted:Russia is a powder-keg. Yeah. gently caress all the people who lie to them daily to poison their minds.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:46
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At this point, it's becoming pretty clear that Russia isn't going to let the Ukraine retake their country, to the point of being willing to invade to stop it. It's also pretty clear that absolutely nobody is going to help the Ukraine. Their position is utterly hopeless. They don't really gain anything by fighting, because whatever Russia wants- a "decentralized" Ukraine, outright annexation of half the country, whatever- is going to happen eventually, the only question is how expensive it is. Russia is not going to face meaningful consequences from within or without. All that's happening now is prolonging the agony, and as right in the abstract as that may be it's not going to make much difference to the final outcome. What am I missing?
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Aug 2, 2014 18:49
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Nonsense posted:Russia is a powder-keg. Not really. It's like looking at Tea Party or EDL meetings and say the same about US or UK.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:52
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Mukaikubo posted:At this point, it's becoming pretty clear that Russia isn't going to let the Ukraine retake their country, to the point of being willing to invade to stop it. It's also pretty clear that absolutely nobody is going to help the Ukraine. Their position is utterly hopeless. They don't really gain anything by fighting, because whatever Russia wants- a "decentralized" Ukraine, outright annexation of half the country, whatever- is going to happen eventually, the only question is how expensive it is. Russia is not going to face meaningful consequences from within or without. All that's happening now is prolonging the agony, and as right in the abstract as that may be it's not going to make much difference to the final outcome. Perhaps the point of Russia telling all her citizens that Ukraine is overrun with NATO soldiers is to give Putin a gracious out - "For the safety of the world, we will not provoke NATO forces by invading Ukraine" sort of thing. I don't know. There's a method to the madness somewhere.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:53
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Mukaikubo posted:At this point, it's becoming pretty clear that Russia isn't going to let the Ukraine retake their country, to the point of being willing to invade to stop it. It's also pretty clear that absolutely nobody is going to help the Ukraine. Their position is utterly hopeless. They don't really gain anything by fighting, because whatever Russia wants- a "decentralized" Ukraine, outright annexation of half the country, whatever- is going to happen eventually, the only question is how expensive it is. Russia is not going to face meaningful consequences from within or without. All that's happening now is prolonging the agony, and as right in the abstract as that may be it's not going to make much difference to the final outcome. Nothing. If you are either America or Russia (or maybe also China) you can begin unprovoked, unjust wars without any major repercussions. That's how the world works at the moment.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:53
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fatherboxx posted:Photos from the pro-war rally in Moscow that gathered around 1000-1500 people wow, there is going to be a giant superwar in the next decade or so, isn't there.
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Aug 2, 2014 18:54
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pengun101 posted:wow, there is going to be a giant superwar in the next decade or so, isn't there. Maaaaybe. We'll see how Ukraine turns out and whether the outcome causes Russian nationalism to ignite or dwindle.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:05
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Paladinus posted:Not really. It's like looking at Tea Party or EDL meetings and say the same about US or UK. No not really Tea Party groups aren't shooting down loving airliners.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:06
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Fabulous Knight posted:Maaaaybe. We'll see how Ukraine turns out and whether the outcome causes Russian nationalism to ignite or dwindle. I think it will happen after Putin dies. As lovely as putin and oligarch friends are. They do keep they even more insane people in check. Once Putin dies, i fear that dam will break. Dapper_Swindler fucked around with this message at 19:16 on Aug 2, 2014 |
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Aug 2, 2014 19:12
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Fabulous Knight posted:Ah, great. Dugin actually has an audience. Fuckin' A. Good news/bad news: per Evgeniy Feldman, Novaya Gazeta photographer who was there, the audience wasn't bussed in. Which means there are about 1000 people in Moscow who really believe in stuff like that. On flip side, it means that the rally isn't really pushed for by Kremlin.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:24
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http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/22924035/__Rusland_hekelt__EU__.html Seems like the EU has removed a ban on weapon sales to Ukraine?
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Aug 2, 2014 19:25
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Well hello there: https://twitter.com/SpotPlanet/status/495601581308784640 Wow, Pimpmust beat me by seconds 
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Aug 2, 2014 19:25
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I see Dugin has been growing out his beard. Going for that Rasputin look.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:26
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Pimpmust posted:http://www.telegraaf.nl/buitenland/22924035/__Rusland_hekelt__EU__.html Now if only they could afford them.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:32
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McDowell posted:I see Dugin has been growing out his beard. Going for that Rasputin look. Yeah, well, for the Orthodox it's the starets look, so not as sinister for them.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:32
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Faux Shoah posted:Now if only they could afford them. "Suppose my neighbor's home catches fire, and I have a length of garden hose four or five hundred feet away. If he can take my garden hose and connect it up with his hydrant, I may help him to put out his fire...I don't say to him before that operation, "Neighbor, my garden hose cost me $15; you have to pay me $15 for it."... I don't want $15--I want my garden hose back after the fire is over. "
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Aug 2, 2014 19:43
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Nonsense posted:No not really Tea Party groups aren't shooting down loving airliners. Israel, Iraq, blah-bla-blah. Do you really want to discuss other countries' involvement in different conflicts? Because it's highly irrelevant. Most of those people probably think that Putin is a Jew and prevents any real help to glorious rebels, anyway. What I obviously meant is that those people are a fringe group. Gathering one thousand people in Moscow is not that impressive, especially considering it's a meeting in support of something Russia also semi-officially supports.
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Aug 2, 2014 19:46
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I remember someone earlier in the thread was fascinated by the blue-white striped shirts some Russians were wearing. Well, August 2nd is airborne forces day in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. and is a striped shirt overload. More pictures here: https://www.google.com/search?q=%D0...iw=1304&bih=683
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Aug 2, 2014 20:01
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The N-K dispute along with insane Turkish denial of the genocide have really hurt Armenia's economy too. The only way goods and people can get in or out by land is through Iran or Georgia. And Azerbaijan has been using its oil money to start an arms race that Armenia can't win, which is also loving the economy.
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Aug 2, 2014 20:12
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eigenstate posted:I remember someone earlier in the thread was fascinated by the blue-white striped shirts some Russians were wearing. Well, August 2nd is airborne forces day in Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, etc. and is a striped shirt overload. I saw the picture first, and until I read the text, I thought it was a gay pride parade.
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Aug 2, 2014 20:14
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OddObserver posted:Good news/bad news: per Evgeniy Feldman, Novaya Gazeta photographer who was there, the audience True, 1000-1500 is really nothing in a city the size of Moscow. I just hope the number stays around that level in the (probable) future rallies.
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Aug 2, 2014 20:16
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pengun101 posted:wow, there is going to be a giant superwar in the next decade or so, isn't there. You could get 2k people to show up in New York claiming the moon landing never happened despite the U.S. media not shoving that narrative down anyone's throat. If anything the demonstration shows that Russia isn't a powder keg. Just a rotting barrel if anything.
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Aug 2, 2014 20:35
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Swan Oat posted:The N-K dispute along with insane Turkish denial of the genocide have really hurt Armenia's economy too. The only way goods and people can get in or out by land is through Iran or Georgia. And Azerbaijan has been using its oil money to start an arms race that Armenia can't win, which is also loving the economy. Azerbaijan's huge materiel advantage didn't help them in the first war. Armenia was going to roll them back to Baku if not for the intervention of Chechnyan and arab jihadis who had lots of experience in Afghanistan. It's a dictatorship and their army is still a bunch of badly trained conscripts, outside the praetorian guard units. Armenia will be ok. pengun101 posted:I think it will happen after Putin dies. As lovely as putin and oligarch friends are. They do keep they even more insane people in check. Once Putin dies, i fear that dam will break. Oh is that what you think. You think the big bad russian guys are going to take over and be bad in the world?
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Aug 2, 2014 20:41
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Zwabu posted:Re: rumored Merkel deal - how could Putin agree to stop funding and directly supporting the separatists with military power when he doesn't seem to have admitted at any point that he has actually done so? The supposed deal is all sorts of hosed up. I'm so disappointed in Merkel and Germany. I mean for real, where do they get the balls to decide the future of Crimea and Ukraine without the Ukrainians even at the table.
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Aug 2, 2014 20:45
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WORLD WAR THREE WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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Aug 2, 2014 20:55
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Vladimir Putin posted:The supposed deal is all sorts of hosed up. I'm so disappointed in Merkel and Germany. I mean for real, where do they get the balls to decide the future of Crimea and Ukraine without the Ukrainians even at the table. Says Vladimir Putin! (we totally need a Merkel poster here too now that we also got a Strelkov)
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Aug 2, 2014 21:00
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Vladimir Putin posted:The supposed deal is all sorts of hosed up. I'm so disappointed in Merkel and Germany. I mean for real, where do they get the balls to decide the future of Crimea and Ukraine without the Ukrainians even at the table. The source of that deal in this thread was an article from the Independent. Isn't that owned by a Russian oligarch?
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Aug 2, 2014 21:01
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Igor Strelkov posted:Azerbaijan's huge materiel advantage didn't help them in the first war. Armenia was going to roll them back to Baku if not for the intervention of Chechnyan and arab jihadis who had lots of experience in Afghanistan. For clarity's sake, what I was saying is that Armenia is trying to keep up in an arms race that it can't win. I wasn't trying to imply that Baku was ready to whip Armenia in combat, just that the arms race is bad for Armenia's economy since it redirects government spending on stuff that's actually useful.
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Aug 2, 2014 21:06
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