grognards.txt - sandbox gamers are the John Galts of the RPG world

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Effectronica: May 31, 2011; Fallen Rib

GorfZaplen posted:

Vaginal Prison (SU)
Izanami�s vulva is an inescapable maw, capable of consuming her lovers whole when she finally tires of them.

Up to eleven times per day, Izanami can transform her vagina into a tessarect space-fold. If she has successfully pinned a foe her own size or smaller, she may elect to make a second CMB check, as though attempting to pin the opponent once again. If the check is successful, Izanami�s vagina warps and stretches to impossible proportions, swelling her opponent whole.

Once swallowed, the victim is shunted into a non-dimensional space within her body. While swallowed, the victim is considered grappled, but Izanami is not. In addition, the victim suffers 1d4 points of bludgeoning damage plus 1d8 points of additional acid damage per round. Due to the special nature of Izanami�s undeath, each round the victim also suffers 1d8 fire damage.

The victim cannot break free through physical effort, but may escape by casting any form of teleportation or dimensional travel magic, or by succeeding on a DC 30 WILL save. A freed creature reappears prone and adjacent to Izanami, in a random open square.

Izanami can trap a victim in her vaginal prison for up to 74 rounds. If the victim dies while swallowed, he or she is consumed completely, along with all non magical gear. If the victim is still alive when this enhancement ends, or if the victim breaks free with a successful WILL Save, Izanamisuffers 5d6 points of damage (FORT DC 18 half). She may choose to birth a swallowed creature at any time; any magical items swallowed can be vomited up at will also.

Kaidan: A Japanese Ghost Story is shaping up to be a monster. So, too, is "You have come to a game called GOR! *whipcrack*"

quote:

Is this about that AWFUL film on MST3K?
No. While the two �Gor� films are very, very loosely based on the books they�re not really a good reflection of the books, the world, or the game.

MISOGNY/SEXISM/ETC!
It�s fantasy, it�s not real. The books and the world described in them has been incredibly and persistently popular for many years and a huge number of those fans are women. While the Gorean world, as presented, is undeniably strict in its gender roles and (arguably) misogynistic this is only in the same sense that BDSM role-play, D/S relationships etc are and this need not be the focus of the game. There�s plenty of other stuff going on, from the intrigues between cities to the machinations of the Kur.

Why two books?
Not everyone who�d be interested in a Gorean world guide would be interested in a roleplaying game. Splitting the books this way will allow fans of the books to get the World Guide without having to buy the game, while roleplayers can get both. The RPG book will have a basic primer on Gor and its cultures but the greater majority of information on the world will be in the guide, indexed like an encyclopaedia. If we meet the target we should be able to lavishly illustrate both and bring the Gorean world to life.

What is a Role-Playing Game Anyway?
You know what Dungeons & Dragons is? Like that, but with different rules and set on Gor. If you don�t know what that is, it�s a game where you and your friends create a story together, based around your characters and using dice to determine what happens if it comes down to luck or skill.

ME, MYSELF & MOTIVATIONS

Why do this?
Personally?: I want to? I�m a fan of the books and its an opportunity to finally write something game and sex related in a grown-up fashion without having to nudge and wink all the time.
Professionally?: It�s a challenge and an opportunity to � further � put my money where my mouth is and show my commitment to free expression and different ideas. A way � further � of challenging the acceptance of violence and the disgust towards sex that is so common in games.
Commercially?: There�s, potentially, a huge and untapped market here. Gor has been consistently popular online since the 90s as a roleplaying setting and if we can engage the people that do that (not just related to Gor) then we can expand the hobby. We�ll see if tht works out.

You�re just doing this or the oppression-cred and to get attention!
I�ve been sat on this in virtual silence, working hard, for some 18 months around and about other projects. There�s easier ways to get attention than that. The publicity from people�s inevitable outrage can�t hurt but honestly, it�s just wearisome at this point. I�m taking my own advice and making things that I like and want, other people should do the same. Attention might help the project, so I�ll suck it up.

Your Comparison to 50 Shades isn�t hopeful!
I�m just trying to point out that kink (albeit horribly misrepresented kink) isn�t the marginalised, out-there fantasy it might have used to have been. Gor is � in many ways � much more coy than 50 Shades. I hope to include some sort of sidebar to avoid the same sort of problems found in 50 Shades, to emphasise the importance of consent in the BDSM scene and to head off some of the kink-shaming.

Are the books full of lecturing and gender theory?
Other than some explanation on what Goreans (tend to) believe and think on these subjects, no. Long internal monologues don�t make for fun and interesting games. Swooping in on tarn-back, smashing into the locked chambers of a high cylinder and making off with the Ubar�s daughter into the night do. I�ve tended to skip over that stuff as much as possible in order to concentrate on the flying, intrigue, paga taverns, dancing girls and stabbing people with swords.

# ? Aug 22, 2014 12:36

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 20:09

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

Topic: 20th-level Monks knocking down the Tarrasque.

Holy poo poo, the WotC boards are awful. And now that grogs and non-grogs are playing the same game, it's a weird internal edition war. Already.

quote:

Well, then let's just let the PCs do whatever they want with any effect they want. In a world full of superhuman abilities and magic and monsters, it makes no sense that it wouldn't work like that. Games, even fantastic ones, necessarily have limits. Just because you are okay with the limits being at X, doesn't mean that your subjective opinion on where those limits are applies to everyone else, or makes sense to everyone else.

Go ahead and play your Monty Python game where PCs jump into the air and knock a dragon out of the sky with a fist. I'm sure it's very fun for you, and that's all that matters. For me and those like me, the limits are at Y and it makes no sense for us to use them at X. Setting the limits at Y is much more fun for us, and that's all that matters.

quote:

Dungeons & Dragonballs!!!!!!
That is the game your looking for right RAW lawyers?
Where you wear basketball shorts as armor because a misplaced comma makes them superior!
You punch a legendary Terrasque through the side of a mountain because the devs left out a clause!
You roll infinite damage dice because of an improperly placed proper noun!
You chop of an epic monks fists and make nunchuks from them because monks fists do 1d10 each!

BUT THAT'S WHAT IT SAYS RIGHT! lol... get real.

quote:

It trivializes the Tarrasque, though. Such a beast shouldn't be able to be subjected to treatment like that from a mere monk. I don't want to play whack-a-Tarrasque when I play D&D.

quote:

Grease is the only effect that is listed that targets larger creatures' poor Dexterity saves. But a giant puddle of grease right under the Tarrasque's feet causing it to fall down actually makes sense. Punching it in the toe every turn and causing it to fall down over and over does not make sense. Sorry. Also keep in mind that a caster has to use spell slots for Grease whereas the Monk's attack passively has the effect every time he/she attacks. You'll notice the rest of the effects you listed either do not knock creatures prone and/or allow Strength or Constitution saves which favor large creatures generally.

quote:

You do understand how pen & paper RPGs work right? The rules serve the game not the other way around. If you end up facing the most terrifying monster on the Material Plane you don't get to go "lol I knock it down every round with my punch!". Seriously man give me a break with this "player agency" crap.

quote:

This thread is reminding of why I can't play with many D&D players (especially younger players). "But the rulebook says!" is quite possibly one of the most annoying things a player can ever say to a DM. If I'm the DM I say to the person playing the Monk "Hey the way that ability is written is silly to me, and likely an oversight, so I'll give you a choice: either it only affects large and smaller creatures or creatures may make a Strength save against it". And the people I play with would respond with "Cool, you're the DM. I'll choose x option." It's so freaking simple, but many of you seem to be the kind people who argue with DMs. I'll never understand why anyone thinks that's good for a game.

the answer is 'you're a terrible dm'

quote:

I think you may be reading into my disdain for power gaming and metagaming as me being the kind of DM who likes to screw players over all the time. I am pretty hardline on anything I see that enters into the territory of those two things, but for the most part I'm actually quite fun to play with. The OP to me felt like a very straightforward situation where a minor edit would make the ability more in-line with what a 3rd level ability should be (also more in line with other abilities that have comparable effects). I don't play with people who would get bent out of shape over such a minor change as limiting it to large and smaller creatures or something similar. Clearly on this forum there are such people, and I tend to see such people as either power gamers or rules lawyers, two groups I'm not overly fond of. So yeah I was probably a bit too "Hell no, not in my game" but that's my reaction to the things that I find annoying.

my favorite:

quote:

[b]No.. the reason he (and anyone else not playing dragonballz rpg) don't like it is because it's stupid.
Any player would ask to see the rules text because it sounds so ridiculous.
I read his posts and he has more DM'ing skill in his toe nail clippings than the RAW fankiddies.

No.... you are not clever because you discovered a rule oversight.
Ironically the RAW kid from earlier admitted he is a big dragonballz fan so i'm not surprised that crowd wants their DnD to play out like anime.

Than junk is the reason 4e alienated classic DnD fans. It felt like an episode of Looney Toons.
This is not Naruto or Bleach manga... This is niot Pikachumon. This is not Fist of the North Star.
This is a western RPG with a rich history of novels and characters. I don't remember Goku being in the books.

Here is a video of the monk as viewed by the RAW dnd anime fans.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xw35hjUCMoI

Not in my dnd boys.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 03:53

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

quote:

quote:
Where 4E had broken epic mosters or solos due to action economy issues this edition has a whole range of CC lockdowns on them. Of course tarrasque can currently be soloed by a 5th level Mage with acid splash cantrip and fly spell and the way in which many legendary creatures will die in one to two rounds suggests that we will see errata or a progression into better high level content like 4E did eventually

Heh, not in my game. Fly and acid splash huh? Cool, turns out the Tarrasque can also breathe lightning. It just doesn't bother most of the time. That's what happens when players metagame monsters with knowledge they got from reading the MM.

Players using a monster's weaknesses against them? Not in my game!

(Maybe this is why grogs don't have a problem with caster supremacy, they just make poo poo up as they go.)

# ? Aug 23, 2014 05:59

Error 404: Jul 17, 2009; MAGE CURES PLOT

quote:

For GMs, the goal is to create a living breathing world that isn't just under your control. Random Rolls is a huge part of making that happen, where the world can do things you yourself would not expect.

Take that away and the GM is just a guy telling a story, rather than the god of a real world.

Take away the rest of the GM's powers to over-ride the rules, and he's not even that, he's just the monopoly-banker who is not meant to have fun and only exists to do what the players tell him to do.

And in response to one dude who suggested that hey maybe this is going a little too far...

quote:

The thing is there are people out there, like Luke Crane, Vince Baker, Ron Edwards, etc. who think that GMs should be punished and not permitted to have fun. It's part of their "deconstruction" of regular RPGs: all GMs are illegitimate patriarchal autocrats who will automatically abuse their authority and must therefore be prevented from having any authority whatsoever. For having wanted to have authority in the first place, they should be relegated to the most mechanical of responses, not allowed to question the rules, not allowed to say "no" to the players, and only serve in a capacity equivalent to the Banker in Monopoly (except the banker usually gets to play, too).

Because gamers need to learn that in the world of Forge/Storygames, only the self-styled "Genius game designer" pseudo-intellectual should be allowed to have authority. How dare those grubby GMs RUIN their incredible games by trying to mess up their perfect rules and ideas with GM-authority?!() Never!

emphasis mine.
Oh Pundowski-san, never change.

Error 404 fucked around with this message at 19:27 on Aug 23, 2014

# ? Aug 23, 2014 19:19

Clanpot Shake: Aug 10, 2006; shake shake!

quote:

I am really really so glad that they stick to the male descriptions in the WH40k RPG books.

I really hate it when they use these over-emancipated grammar in roleplaying games, like pathfinder or even Shadowrun.

It sounds artificial and ridiculous.

Thank the emperor, that the Warhammer fanbase is ~97,6% male and they stick to grammar that would make an Astartes proud.

And by the way - the women that I would consider tough and modern wouldnt even care about stuff like that.

This kind of thing is just for those with inferiority issues.

For whining about such stuff, my patience is quite limited.

# ? Aug 23, 2014 20:53

MonsieurChoc: Oct 12, 2013; Every species can smell its own extinction.

This has got to count as grog:

http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-dd-5th-edition-review-part-1/

The Spoony One ranting for 2 hours about how the new edition of D&D isn't as good as it used to be. I couldn't watch all of it: I had to stop when he started complaining about how the new races that had been added after 2E didn't belong there.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 05:13

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

MonsieurChoc posted:

This has got to count as grog:

http://spoonyexperiment.com/counter-monkey/counter-monkey-dd-5th-edition-review-part-1/

The Spoony One ranting for 2 hours about how the new edition of D&D isn't as good as it used to be. I couldn't watch all of it: I had to stop when he started complaining about how the new races that had been added after 2E didn't belong there.

EDIT: Jesus loving Christ he spends the first five minutes fumbling trough "I didn't manage to spend my Patreon funds on anything I said I would, sorry." Also hahahaha: "They're calling it just 'Dungeons & Dragons'�not a good sign" is the first loving thing he says about it. And then he talks about 4E for four minutes. Holy poo poo.

Long ago I only knew of "Spoony" from some Ultima retrospective video reviews that were pretty good, and then somehow I was linked to some video he did about Pathfinder. "Cool, I'm even in a game of that right now" said I, so I just started watching it. He talked for like 30 minutes about initiative and AoOs and I only then looked at the progress bar to see that there was still an hour of that poo poo to go. Dude needs to learn how to loving streamline.

Anyway, here's my modest return to grogs.txt. Apparently they're making CthulhuTech 2nd Edition, and there's some noise about how they're maybe might not gonna be quite so awful about it.

quote:

quote:
I'm not familiar with this game very much at all. How is it "squicky"?

There are multipule threads and postings from several people who find C-Tech material highly objectionable.
Not without cause, mind you. But some of us feel they exagerate the circumstances and amount attributed to the game line.
I have no wish to drag the same tired arugment into yet another thread, so the search function is your friend.

"That isn't a conversation for this thread, but those people were totally loving wrong. Keep how wrong those people were out of this thread, please."

And he's right. It wasn't the thread for that. Then he grunted out his wrong-rear end opinion on the argument anyway.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Aug 24, 2014

# ? Aug 24, 2014 06:09

Alien Rope Burn: Dec 5, 2004; _{I wanna be a saikyo HERO!}

Plague of Hats posted:

Anyway, here's my modest return to grogs.txt. Apparently they're making CthulhuTech 2nd Edition, and there's some noise about how they're maybe might not gonna be quite so awful about it.

Excerpts and art from the opening fiction to The Void, Wildfire's newest RPG. According to some, they've turned over a new leaf with this one. But then again...

The Void posted:

The first slender tentacle gently wormed its way through one of the holes, about hip height. It probed its way through, cautiously but deliberately. The second wasn�t far behind, this one much thicker than the first. It could barely push its way through, but barely was enough. The fear gripped Anastasia again, much worse this time. She grabbed hold of a cargo strap, just to help keep her from collapsing.

More tentacles followed, backlit by the lights of the storage room which poured through the holes. She hoped they weren�t going to notice her � hoped against all hope � but she knew better. In a few seconds the probing monstrosities would zero in on her and rip her limb from limb. If she was lucky.

One of the larger tentacles inched its way towards her. The tip touched her uniform and slowly slithered its way up. If terror hadn�t already paralyzed her, the smell would have made Anastasia vomit. Another came from the other side, closer every moment. The command came from her brain to fire the gun, but something short-circuited the thought en route.

This was a hell of a way to die.

The Void posted:

Just then, the food arrived. Felius had ordered what many had come to call �white people chicken,� while Marcus� tastes tended more towards the exotic � Echizen jellyfish, which can be toxic if not prepared properly. Which is something Anastasia had forgotten when she asked him to order for her.

There it was � san nak ji. A live octopus on a bed of vegetables. Anastasia knocked the chair over jumping out of it and away from her �dish.�

�Take it away!� she shouted at the waiter, who promptly fell all over himself to remove the offending delicacy. He bowed and disappeared.

Anastasia composed herself and sat back down. Marcus looked at her, shocked. �What�s wrong with you?�

�Kinetofayetophobia.�

Even Felius was stumped. �Kinetofayetophobia? What the hell is that?�

�Fear of moving food. It�s the closest phobia that translates to tentacles. Remember the thing on Mars?�

Marcus picked up a chunk of jellyfish with his chopsticks. �They�ve got phobias for everything, don�t they?�

�Everybody�s scared of something.�

The Void posted:

Marcus stepped up to shake his hand, smiling disarmingly. �Pleasure. I�m Agent Marcus St. Croix. This is Agent Felius Fickerwith and Agent Anastasia Kiss.�

Jarvi turned and ran his eyes up and down Anastasia. �Kiss? Is that intentional?�

Though she wanted to immediately bathe herself, Anastasia knew that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. So, she gave him one of her best smiles, the kind that typically got men to do what she wanted. �It should be, but it�s actually Hungarian.�

The Void posted:

From out of the mist, something wriggled. Several meaty green tentacles, tipped with black talons, moving with sinister purpose. Anastasia could feel the chill creeping up the back of her legs.

�Not this again,� was all she said before opening up with her assault rifle, its blaze lighting up the alien forest with flash after flash.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 06:40

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

quote:

All you people bitching about balance do not loving get it. Like... at all. If you go to a game like D&D, which is about telling a story and having an adventure, and complain about balance issues, you're a loving idiot. In fact, the imbalances, I'd argue, are part of what made early D&D great. Having the unlikely hero overcoming the odds is may more fun, in my (right) opinion.

---

quote:

Okay, wow.... gotta say this man, regarding the death thing. At 34 years old I have realized something: If you put time into it, you don't want to lose it. If a character dies and stays dead, then every moment of time, from writing down the name to that last roll of the dice, was wasted time. It does not matter how awesome a character was or how they went out, if they are dead, they were a waste.

One of my most fondly remembered characters was a simple fighter in 3rd Ed. Fought his way from 1st to 19th level. Neutral Good. really didn't care about law and order or chaos and suffering. Was basically just a good guy who didn't give a rats rear end about whether or not some king said it was okay or if some devil said to do it.

Specialized in dual wielding, +5 Adamantine Longsword, and +5/+5 Adamantine spiked shield. Maximized for defense on everything else.

19 Levels of time, all a bitter memory now, because he died in a fight against a Devil Lord to save the world. He did more damage than our (after the fight) 20th level wizard. Was only healed once during the fight by our cleric, and only used 3 healing potions overall. Dead. 7 years of time, wasted. He wasn't able to be revived, since his body was destroyed and he refused to pledge himself to any god or owe anyone any favor. There were no rewards, there was nothing. I directly told the GM not to build a statue to him in-game because, and I quote my exact words: "Why would I care? I, the player, am the one I role-play for, not the character, not the story. not the world. He is not now and never will be around again to see any of this. Let it go, let it be forever forgotten as the waste of time it was. A statue would be pointless. You can only enjoy a story with an end, and now he will never have one. Biggest hope I have is that no one bothered to remember his name, and that the world will forget he ever existed. The only reason he fought to live, was to live forever."

Bottom line: You can only enjoy the rewards if you are alive to claim them. That is one of the critical differences people forget. It doesn't matter why your character is doing something, you the player are there to reap the benefits of a finished story, and stories just hang forever unfinished if the character isn't alive for them. If there is no recovery, without having to owe somebody, as in you just spend the spell or energy or item, then there is no point. The only way to "win" permanently, is for your character to die of old age, without a single debt owed nor owing, retired in a life of ridiculous luxury. IE the pile of gold, the castle of servants in a country you rule, the library of books of knowledge long forgotten by man, the thieves guild named in your honor, etc and having exactly zero regrets.

quote:

The whole point of a game is to win, literally games can be won or lost, and if you play to lose, more power to you, but that isn't how nor why I roll. Role playing games in particular are supposed to be different from real life.

This is the kind of guy who, at whatever age he reached, would don his plate-mail, sword, and shield, and fight the very entity of death itself, and beat his rear end.

The end all be all goal for him, from an OOC perspective mind you, was to live forever without some magical bauble or effect, but simply fighting so hard death itself could not take him. He, IC, lived by the motto "Do not fight to die for a cause. Fight to live forever through one." A little bit of a paraphrase from the more classical versions thereof I will grant you, but it is how he lived every single day. He was a fighter, literally making the fight itself his job. To die, to retreat, to be defeated, shamed, etc, was a failure to him IC and myself OOC.

I will grant you, the fact he lived to that point (the final fight with the Devil Lord) was a miracle of dice-tacular proportions.

****

An Example:

The entire group ran when a group of twelve barbarian orcs were over-running our camp when he was about tenth level. Lucky for him, he was on watch and was equipped at the time because of it. They all ran. He didn't. Managed to kill every single one of those orcs, had one single hit point left at the end of it. He never trusted a single one of that group ever again, because they ran. Not even the Paladin of Paelor. In truth, his view was this: "You fight, and you win, or you fail. There are no other options. I choose not to fail."

****

I played him to the hilt, fully expecting the GM to eventually play the, or rather beginning of the, fight with Death itself. I had few illusions OOC that he would win the fight, but the idea of the eternal/unending fight was not beyond reach.

If you have a problem with that play-style? Your choice. Welcome to it, and I hope you enjoy yourself along the way. Me? The journey is meaningless unless there is a destination you reach at the end of it. The journey can be swift and easy, long and arduous, but to me, in the end, the only reason you took that first step in the adventure was the destination you wanted to reach at the end of it.

Though, I will admit, I do have one rather unique feature I have found among my fellow role players. I write detailed backgrounds, the beginnings, from humble to grand, for each and every of my characters. I also write the same for their goals, in a way using it as a check-list for completion. My own personal measure of how MY character is doing, is how far along the way he is on that list. Death is never on it, well, unless you count undeath (Necromancer wanting to turn Lich, not sure if that counts).

quote:

Meh, D&D4 killed D&D for me. Not only did the system sucked, with the exception of being "newbie friendly,"(although I've started playing D&D games while barely knowing English, starting by playing D&D video games), but it also ruined the cannon lore of many worlds.

THAT, and not the system itself has forever ruined D&D for me. The system itself was an insult to the injury.

----

Have to fully agree on art style.

Cutting Eladrin-EF YEAH! So long Eladrin! You effed things up so much, it was unbearable.

Hackmaster pixie-play wizard/sorcerer/rogue/ranger/cleric/druid and EF things up big time.

Dragonborn has no place in D&D and especially in Faerun, agree, but no-the biggest BS were Tieflings, their origin and Demons no longer exist.

Half-orcs are "typical" because apparently orcs made their nation Faerun and people started hooking up when bloodshed died out...To the point where Drizzt Do'Urden would go hunting down drawrves and elves for hunting down orcs, a group called KKK(I think)...

Bah! D&D is dead for me, Numenera is the next best thing out there! Feels very much like Planescape.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 09:12

Slimnoid: Sep 6, 2012; Does that mean I don't get the job?

Hahaha

GMS posted:

"... the abyss also gazes into you."

Congratulations, folks. With yet another thread created on the ongoing culture war, this time to create "our" version of the Problematic Tabletop tumblr, where we're supposed to mark down "evidence" of the Outrage Brigade being assholes, the transition of TheRPGSite into RPGNet2.0 is now proceeding. Hell, we've even got our own Tangency, in the form of this very sub forum!

I've said this to Pundit and Zak, and now I'll say it here:

Drop it. Let it go. Stop giving these fuckers oxygen.

They're awful, yes.

They're lying, yes.

They're all about control, wrapped up in the false cloak of "Social Justice", yes.

But y'know what else? THEY LOST.

Think about it -- their goal was to stir up enough outrage that there would be push-back on 5th Edition for hiring Zak and Pundit as consultants. Instead, they watched as what little credibility they possessed was pissed away -- they overreached, and in their overreaching, were completely demonstrated as the meaningless annoyance they are.

Look at the things they say now -- how they've moved the goal posts, how everything now is about butthurt because people are talking about the poo poo THEY did.

The good guys won. Walk away.

Because keeping this poo poo going -- in the name of "archiving" or "proof" or whatever your reasons may be? Smacks of triumphalism -- of staying on the battlefield so you can slaughter the wounded. You run the risk of people sympathizing with them, and maybe believing them the next time they try this kinda crap.

The next time they pull this poo poo, you can simply remind people of the outcome from THIS time, and people will go "Oh yeah, those assholes. Never mind."

They lost. Stop giving them attention -- which is the one thing they desperately crave.

Because right now? We're the only ones keeping this thing alive. And in the process, we're gazing into that abyss.

Zak S posted:

gently caress off.

Just don't read threads you don't like and don't tell me how to run poo poo.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 15:52

Nancy_Noxious: Apr 10, 2013; by Smythe

How would you design a Theatre of the Mind combat system without using abstract positioning?

quote:

If history is any guide, you do a system that uses exact positioning and distances, and then people just ignore those, using them as general guidelines at best. That's how I've always done it.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 20:32

Clanpot Shake: Aug 10, 2006; shake shake!

Nancy_Noxious posted:

How would you design a Theatre of the Mind combat system without using abstract positioning?

This reads like sarcasm. Are you sure this isn't sarcasm?

END THE grog tax:

quote:

What I wanted to state is:

> WH40k DOES have a fanbase that is very much male oriented
> I like the male orientation of the game
> I wouldnt want to change the game just to please the "statistically average" women more, because that would change it in its very core

Of course, this statement is based on the "average" woman.
There will also be women that like 40k-esque stuff, and I dont have any problem at all to have them on board.
There are also guys who like pink ponies, but I wouldnt want the game to develop accourding to them too.

Its just my opinion about the core target group and what it means for the games design, which I wouldnt want to change.

Furthermore, the kind of women that usually cares about pronouns, are the ones that I don't really like that much, because I dont have much sympathy for this whining attitude.

There is no "place" for anyone in society in general, but there are definitely different interests between the statistically average male and female.

And most women I know, prefer shopping definitely to playing a game thats called Warhammer 40.000 in the grimdark future, where bulky fanatical battle-monks fight against space horrors and mutated heretics.

Yep, women love shoes and shopping and saying otherwise makes you a whinger.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 21:20

Littlefinger: Oct 13, 2012

Grogs are wisening up to 5e class imbalances and are zeroing in on the culpits.

quote:

This whole argument is theorycrafting, since no DM worth his salt would allow a monk into his campaign, especially if the player begins to rules lawyer right from the start.

# ? Aug 24, 2014 23:14

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

WOTC boards still has some people really upset about Monks getting to do a marginally cool thing.
---
Someone points out that anime is not a genre but a medium, another QFTs it...

Grog responds posted:

You're welcome to "QFT" but that doesn't make it so. Anime is a distinct style, not a medium. It is a style of artwork and storytelling derived from the Japanese animation and storytelling style, it has certain defining characteristics that make its products distinctly Anime. It is in fact a "Genre", and we can tell that is so obviously true that even websites like Amazon seperate it out as it's own distinct genre right beside Comedy and Horror.

arnwolf666 posted:

arnwolf666 posted:
I'm playing sword and sorcery not DC and Marvel comics or superhero RPG's.

notgrog posted:
Cool. So you might want to limit the maximum level that characters can achieve and remove some of the class abilities (and spells) of all the magic-using classes.
You might want to notice the bolded word here...

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quote:

Maintaining the "suspension of Disbelief" is important, it is nit clinging to "realism" to ensure that suspension is kept. Having the world behave in a logical and consistant manner preserves the fantasy setting. While the player (singular) might get kicks out of the siliness, the destruction to the suspension of disbeleif to the rest of the group can be nothing less then traumatic.

it is hard to keep the suspension of disbeleif in a creature like a tarrasque if it gets booted over on it's back like a small turtle, it is hard to keep the scene tense or relate to the terror such a creature would create if it is reduced to cartoonish level buffoonery..

even talking about a DM being backed into a corner is absurd, it denotes a group of childish players who aren't worth any DM's time or energy that they would bavk him into a corner. Best way to not get backed into a corner is to STAND YOUR GROUND.

saying no is not a failure of imagination, it is a simple truth, really if you are playing with someone who can't handle being told no, then you are better off sending them back to their mother's teat then debating. Players appretiate being told no, that is unless they are narcissists.

Atheosis(seriously thats his handle) posted:

Tank as in the MMORPG use of the term? No, thankfully WotC realized their pen and paper game wasn't a video game, and so now that stuff is up to the DM and how he imagines the monsters he is controlling think. Which is as it should be in my opinion.

# ? Aug 25, 2014 03:08

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

quote:

"Tank" is part of the MMO holy trinity which grew out of the near total inability of MMOs to give rogues anything useful to do, and the need to artifically separate all the legs of that triangle (damage absorption/damage dealing/damage mitigation) which caught on in EverQuest and hasn't wholly left us since.

Don't get me wrong, I love MMOs, but Pen and Paper doesn't require that artifical construct. It's one of the things what worked well in 4e because 4e was the grid, period. The number of people playing 4e without a grid has to be such a laughably small number as to be nearly completely insignificant.

Remove that extreme miniatures game element and "tanking" returns to being an artificial construct.

---

quote:

Someone Sensible posted:
The 4e fighter did not tank in the same way a MMO tank does. To even think that you must have a laughably incomplete knowledge of how 4e works.

In an MMO a tank gains "threat" which forces the monsters to attack the tank. In a pen and paper RPG, only spellcasters can force enemies to do anything.

In 4e a defender tanked in a completely different way. Their methods relied evilly upon battlefield control and punishment.

Punishment was the most obvious way 4e defenders "tanked". Marks or defender auras made attacking targets other than the tank suffer a penalty. This incentivized monsters to attack the tank, but they were still free to attack other targets. However, if they did attack other targets, they were susceptible to the defenders punishment mechanic (usually damage of some sort). This made the DM have to think whether or not the trade off of attacking the squishy target was worthwhile. Overall, that lead to more tactically interesting combats.

Now the other way defenders operated was through battlefield control. This took the form of Forced movement, knocking enemies prone, and reducing enemies speed. This was often more essential to successfully defending than the mark or punishment. Good use of these abilities allowed the defender to lock down multiple enemies.

The reason the 5e fighter can never match a 4e defender is due primarily to the fact that in 5e, you are limited to one opportunity attack per round. In 5e, even a sentinel fighter cannot lock down more than a single foe. On top of that, because the enemy suffers no penalty to attacks and OAs are much weaker than a full action attack, there is very little incentive to attack a 5e "tank".

Even the battlemaster maneuvers cannot help here. Menacing strike is nice and all, but it is too unreliable. First you need to hit your target, then they need to fail a saving throw. Oh, did I mention that it uses one of your superiority dice that you only have a few of per rest.

The 5e fighter is better than the 1e or 2e fighter at tanking, but is way far behind a 3e fighter built for tanking, and miles behind an actual 4e defender.

On a side note, a barbarian or bard make the best tanks in 5e. The totem barbarian at level 14 gets an always on "menacing strike" that doesn't require a saving throw. The valor bard can cast demand, warding bond, and other spells that are great for tanking.

Which all describes artififical "Threat" so in fact is identical to MMO tanking.

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Atheosis again posted:

People missed facing enemies that seemed to have actual brains and the ability to make tactical decisions for themselves. And you didn't ask your GM anything, you trusted them to control enemies in a believable way. A fighter is not a tank in the MMO sense because this isn't an MMO. Smart enemies will target your squishy casters first. It's up to you to actually come up with a counter to that, and the counter is going to need to be more than "I have X ability so enemy can't do Y".

quote:

It serves the same purpose. The mechanics may be different, but the overall effect is very much like an MMO tanking system. Hate to break it you but 4E was heavily influenced by MMOs.

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quote:

It's precicely the same thing. Sure the DM can overrule the system but honestly it's playing the monster stupid to do so in the vast majority of situations. The only difference at all is that the DM can override the threat system.

That's it. An override.

It's an artificial threat system identical to the MMO but the DM gets a choice to ignore it and let the enemy suffer the consequences which actually helps the players.

So if anything it actually makes play easier for the party if the DM uses his override option.

Either way it is uneccessary and cumbersome in a P&P RPG. It bogs down play with zero gain and a ton of negatives.

quote:

100% agree with this. And, what's more, there was nothing in D&D 4E that prevented the usage of interesting terrain and combat situations to force tanky situations and the usage of tactics. It's just the design of the game often encouraged encounter design where you had access to all of your abilities. But there was nothing in it explicitly preventing it. The thrill of 4E comes from all the exciting and interesting usages of your encounter/daily abilities to do exciting things in combat. Odd terrain was useful for adding spice, but that's not where the brunt of 4E encounter design came into play. 5E is about the situation surrounding the combat before you get to the rolly bits (I swing my sword).

* This is highly paraphrased/expanded from this Zak Smith post: http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.com/2012/06/armor-or-hit-points.html?zx=2f09fe02cc647b3f

Oh boy, Zak S I'm sure it will be helpful and informative. I mean the opposite of that.

quote:

Well, since there is actually a video game based off of 4th edtion (Neverwinter Online) once can rightly claim that 4th plays like a video game.

It's just a chicken-and-egg issue at that point.

But to address the issue more seriously, the reason people see it as an MMO is bcause you have a series of powers that have "Cooldown timers". These timers are rounds/encounters/days instead of 5 seconds/20 seconds/60 seconds - but they still behave the same. You use your best powers and then while waiting for the cooldown you use lesser powers. Some cooldowns are so long (daily) that you save them for a special moment.

Very MMO-ish from this point of view.

"This video game made after 4th Edition that plays absolutely nothing the gently caress at all like it proves that 4E plays like a video game."

---

4e had cooldowns, positioning, abilities which forced creatures to pay attention to specific characters, between combat regeneration...

You can call it a Japanese strategy game. Sure.

Or an MMO. :P

When I ran 4e all of my players, each of which had a history with botg JRPGs and MMOs, referred to 4e as being like an MMO.

And I'm not bashing 4e. I'm not saying AHMEHGERDIZSOBAD. I am merely saying that 4e is Cinderalla in this story. :P

I expect that in my campaign 5e "tanks" (fighter/barbarian/paladin types) are likely going to fulfill the same role those types did in 1e/2e when I ran games decades ago: a big, scary, hairy, angry handful whose mission in life is to get up in the face of anyone threatening the group and hammer them until they stop being a threat.

You don't need something as artificial as "threat" or "punishment" (Battlemaster has a maneuver to piss things off, I think, but whatever) to be effective as a burly melee. You just have to put yourself out there and roar a little while flailing about with your sword/axe/hammer. You're dangerous, you're in range, and if you stick to the critters like a bad rash, they'll have to deal with you.

----

I'll just leave this last thing here because it's all :psyduck:

Rottle posted:

quote:
The Silly Mechanic in quesiton being marking?

You may want to consider whether you;d find it slightly distracting having someone shooting at you or swinging a lump of metal at your head, or whether you'd be able to do whatever you wanted at full effectiveness despite that. Many military organisations appear to believe that suppressive fire works in that people beign attacked have a tendency to carry out tasks less effectively. Perhaps there's a case for this being so in D&D.

People who have experienced real combat will let you know with no reservations suppressive fire doesn't.

Well I guess modern military tactics are completely a bust then.

# ? Aug 25, 2014 03:33

Pussy Cartel: Jun 26, 2011; Lipstick Apathy

quote:

WOW...! Equality is a myth and those that truely believe in it are truely living in a fantasy realm. As for gender bending...heck no! We have enough problems with players acting all wierd that WotC does not need to praise it in a rule set. In my campaings men have on average two extra points in strength and intelligence while women have two extra points of agility and charm. What is next....men and boy love societies in game???? Madness needs to end. What is the modern human condition...sick

# ? Aug 25, 2014 03:47

Slashrat: Jun 6, 2011; YOSPOS

WotC being greedy fucks is the reason that the PHB doesn't contain ports of everything published for 3.5. Clearly it is isn't because writing and editing content for a new rule system takes time.

some mad guy posted:

I'm stopping here.

Why? Because I figured out what's been annoying me.

Here's what I want for this game:

50 Domains.
1000 spells.
600 feats
minimum of 15 different options for every base class.
20 base classes.

Before you tell me, "That's allot to ask" my answer is, I already got twice as much in 3.5

That's my problem. Stop dribbling it to me. Write a book called SPELLS. Put in 1500 spells in it. I will buy that. I will buy it because it gives me options. It's like they are dumbing the game down. trying to make it more balanced by limiting the options. That works, but I like my unlimited options. Give me feats. Give me gods. Give me a million options. You have those million options already. Hell, just take my EVD and cut and paste, converting it to your system. Leave out anything I pointed out is broken. I don't need POWERFUL options. Just normal options will be fine.

I'll take a look at this again in 2015 when everything is out at the same time. Meanwhile, I think I'm going to delete this.

some mad guy posted:

Tangentially, there is something a new edition always struggles with. 5E D&D will have to compete in its infancy with the entire corpus of 3E D&D. To me, that means that it would have to be a pretty serious and innovative improvement.

No. It doesn't. You know why?

Day One: Put out a player's handbook with 3,334 spells. How?
Oh, I dunno, just convert the 3,334 spells already in existence in 3.5.
Oh hell, get rid of the worst 2,334 spells. Just give me the best 1,000 3.5 spells in the PBH. Don't give me any crap about cost or anything. Make it a drat PDF. It will cost you nothing. Make it a Web-G'drat-Enhancement.

But they won't. Ever. You know how I know?

The release date for the DMG is Nov 19th. Black Friday is the 28th. Can't ship on the 28th, 27th is thanksgiving, some people take a whole week off, so... the 49.95 dollar book needs to be on the shelves by the 21st, a friday. In case there are any problems with distribution, we need someone in the office, so we need two extra days. Because if there is any problems with distribution, nobody is going to be in the office after 9:01pm EST on friday the 21st, and lord knows how many people are taking a vacation that week.

If you are releasing the DMG, the single most important book for RUNNING the game on Nov 19th, you are doing it in hopes of getting under Christmas trees by December 25th.

That is cold, calculating, greed. That's bean-counter planning. That's someone with a tie and a suit making the choices.

I get that you don't get it. I lived in that world. To you, this seems normal. I'm sure you're about to raise up, "Why shouldn't they make money?" Nothing wrong with making money. Are you making the money because you love the game and want it to flourish, or are you making the money because you LOVE MONEY.

If they released all the core books together in a set that was cheaper to buy as a unit soft cover, then a limited edition hard cover boxed set, they'd make money, and get the information out there, and get down to the buisness of running the game.

But check the release schedule. That's not someone trying to win back fans. That's someone trying to build up hype then cash in on black friday.

And here's the weird thing. Here's the god-drat, funny as hell thing...

I actually like the new spell system. I'm liking the SYSTEM. The SYSTEM isn't bad. When you get past the stupid crap, the under lying mechanics ain't bad. I like the new concentration rules, the simplified conditions. They trimmed away a whole bunch of useless. The whole Advantage/Disadvantage thing. Kinda cool. Damage types. I like how they got all the ducks in a row. They were kind to non-spellcasters. Got rid of a whole bunch of feat taxes. Made the remaining feats much stronger.

But it's like they have this nice, new, shiny thing, and it's an engine. But the example parts they gave you to hook up to the engine are made by IKEA. When I read it, I feel like I need to turn on my pop-up blocker. And then, I look over at the beat up engine under my 1965 car. When I gun the engine, gas goes up 6 cents a gallon. When it drives down the road, the ozone layer starts holding up signs begging for mercy. But it's got power. I can do ANYTHING with that monster.

So why don't you take everything cool about my muscle car and put it on your shiny new engine? The answer, We plan on it. In time. Little here, a little there. "Oh, we can't do it all at once! We need to go slow about this. Don't want to make any mistakes."

Uh, this 3.5 stuff has like, I dunno 10+ years of play testing. I'm sure some of it could be ported over right away. Not all of it. How about 25%? Just give me the best 1 out of 4. How about....

371 spells? That's... what I get. You have 4 previous editions of D&D to choose from and I get 11% of 3rd edition. And not even the best 11%. No... maybe 40 new spells. The rest are the same old spells that have been in the PHB for 5 editions now. And these spells have to be spread among Bard, Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard.

I get maybe 1% cool spells and 10% same old same old of the 3,334 spells that 3rd has to offer.

Ah. Perfect example. Hero System. It was screwed up. It needed fixing. When they did a new edition, it was to correct the game. They included EVERYTHING in one big book. Yes, you needed to rebuy the rules, but only one book. This is it. We swear. We're moving on from here with all new stuff.

WotC is not putting out a new edition to fix the game. They are attempting to repackage the old game to make MONEY. There is nothing in the product or behavior to indicate to me otherwise. If at any point someone who loved the game was trying to turn it around at WotC, he has lost control.

You know what, I'm done. if you can't figure it out, I'm done explaining.

# ? Aug 25, 2014 09:43

Esser-Z: Jun 3, 2012

quote:

Oh really? Maybe I'm just a special snowflake, but I tend to get attached to my characters. And the protocol I would use for creation in a Gygax-style game would be very different from a WotC-style game.

I think this might be the problem right here: your the type that makes a character to fit the game. Your ''stacking the deck'', and in my game(and only in my game, in the whole rest of the world your a king or queen or awesome person or such), you'd be cheating.

------------

From a thread about SECRET HOUSE RULES.

# ? Aug 26, 2014 00:52

Jack the Lad: Jan 20, 2009; Feed the Pubs

I can create any character concept I desire with 5e.

Because the rules are not the game.

When you learn this, you will probably enjoy all versions of D&D more.

# ? Aug 26, 2014 11:16

kafziel: Nov 11, 2009

Jack the Lad posted:

I can create any character concept I desire with 5e.

Because the rules are not the game.

When you learn this, you will probably enjoy all versions of D&D more.

This ... doesn't sound groggy at all? That seems like a pretty sensible opinion.

Tax: Some people seriously trying to defend being total shits to girl gamers just for being girls. Because we're the REAL victims, guys.

quote:

Most nerds, have no social skills.
Most nerds, are outcast.
Now, I am talking the real nerds. The ones that noone really likes to hang with other than themselves.
So, you have this group of introverted males who only have each other.
Then, this (normally) fugly bitch comes along. Half of your bros wind up going crazy over the fact that she's a girl.
She only came to the group because she wanted to be a celebrity. She isn't one of us! Wtf Guys?! Wtf?! The bitch is loving everything up!
And now, she's driving splinters between us. We can't loving play d&d with our slaves anymore? I mean? wtf? and now we have to be politically correct? gently caress you guys! and gently caress that hosebeast from the pit of the 999 layers of hell!

quote:

I transferred schools twice to deal with being 'a little uncomfortable' about the vitriol that was thrown at me when I was a kid for liking the wrong things. The problem is I had no point of reference for other people not being shitbags. As far as I was concerned, anyone that was showing an interest in one of my hobbies was trying to find an angle to gently caress with me, because every other occasion it had happened had turned out that way.
"Hey, what are you reading?"
"Oh it's this really cool series about people that ride dragons that's kind of a fantasy series but it's actually science fiction!
"You would like something like that you nerd loving nerd, why are you even here? Nobody wants you around, why don't you just go read your book and die?"
After several years you learn to skip the bullshit and tell people to gently caress off, but you start to feel superior because you've got this whole world at your fingertips that they'll never touch. And then they start touching it. The game you love changes its rules to be more accommodating. The book you read to cry yourself to sleep gets a movie adaptation that changes everything you loved about the universe. The one friend you found who shared your passions is suddenly interested in this girl who keeps hanging around and asking you the same questions that everyone else did and she won't just go away.

Surely you can see how it would be easy to get angry about all that? To want to lash out?

# ? Aug 26, 2014 22:00

Free Gratis: Apr 17, 2002; Karate Jazz Wolf

In a G+ thread about people hating on the head writer for Doctor Who.

quote:

Kasimir Urbanski 2 days ago
Generally speaking, listening to what the extreme-"fans" or "geek community" think about a show, comic, etc. is usually a bad idea. That's how we ended up with a Star Trek franchise no one but the most extreme retrograde trekkies could like; and they howled in outrage when the new movies wiped away their entire precious "Canon" but suddenly normal people like and watch Star Trek again. There's a very important lesson in that.

I think this is the closest Pundit has ever come to self awareness.

# ? Aug 27, 2014 14:58

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

Completely inhuman, plague-worshipping xenomorph monsters must adhere to normative gender roles in my tabletop wargame.

BTW This is the model in question that is concerned with protecting its feminine je n'sais qua:

# ? Aug 27, 2014 19:30

Ronwayne: Nov 20, 2007; That warm and fuzzy feeling.

well at least we know it showers. Speaking of unhygenic things;

quote:

I am not ashamed to play anime fairies, esp when one of the guys at the table is at least 250lbs of pure lard, full neckbeard, waist-length greasy hair, with a large bald spot, wearing a t-shirt with a dragon on it, and owns an old-rear end blue camaro with the license plate DRIZZT.

I'd like to bitch about it, but lets face it, these are my people, and I must go to them.

quote:

This is why I love Tzeentch. None of his plans involve me eating poo poo or swallowing more than _____ _______ at a time.

Ronwayne fucked around with this message at 22:15 on Aug 27, 2014

# ? Aug 27, 2014 19:44

That Old Tree: Jun 24, 2012; nah

Gorean Chronicles � Men are from Gor, Women are from Erskan posted:

FUND IT!

A lot of ink (pixels?) have been spilt over the years about the misogynistic and patriarchal nature of the Gorean world and � more recently � about this fundraiser and this game as a whole. The Free Woman/Slave division is seen as the virgin/whore dichotomy writ large. Michael Moorcock even campaigned for Gorean novels to be put on the top shelf and Norman himself has blamed these criticisms for various setbacks over the time the novels have been published, though I�m not sure how true that is.

Still, we live in a more enlightened age, don�t we? People are much freer about sexuality than they used to be and after the Comics Code, Satanic Panic, Murder Simulators and all the other nonsense we�ve had to put up with we�re all well aware that (for the vast and overwhelming majority of people) there�s a sharp delineation between fantasy and reality? Right?

Right?

It seems not.

Well then, is there a role for women in a Gorean role-playing game or are they destined to just be � as some wag asked me on Twitter � �part of the equipment list?�

There�s no getting away from the fact that the Gorean society, as written is deeply patriarchal � as in genuinely, actually patriarchal. Men hold the power but in the Gorean world that is largely because men still hold the means of production and the military might. Gor is largely pre-industrial, everything is done by hand and muscle power is more important in fighting, agriculture and in generally keeping the world moving. Men cannot be done without and as such hold the balance of physical power.

Women are not without power though. Many castes do not disfavour women, the Scribes, Physicians and Initiates certainly don�t, and there�s nothing to prevent a woman becoming the head of her caste in a city. The caste of Warriors lacks examples of women in the books, but as an hereditary caste there seems no reason to think that there aren�t female warriors, though they might be more likely to fall into support roles, espionage and the like. Women in the Caste of Builders might be supply sellers, architects, researchers, even if they�re less likely to be hod-carriers or bricklayers.

Women hold a great deal of economic power as well, running most of the shops, leading merchant houses, investing their money, managing estates and breeding racing tharlarion (examples from the books). Free women are accorded a level of respect that � within certain bounds � give them a decided social advantage over Gorean men. Nor are free women asexual �Madonnas�. Free women have access to male silk slaves and are presented as sexual beings throughout the books, slavery is not an inevitable fate and many women and men find free companions to be with (equivalent to marriage) though both may also have slaves to entertain them on the side.

Tharna, until it was overthrown, was a vicious matriarchy. There are Panther Girls in the northern forests and in the great jungle of the interior (called Talunas) who are runaway slaves and free women who reject the dominant male society. So tough and committed are they that some scar their faces or otherwise mutilate themselves to show their rejection of Gorean society.

Nor is there any reason you can�t play as a slave girl (or slave boy) within the group. Many slaves are loved and cherished, fought over and for and many slaves have played key roles in important events on Gor. A slave may also only temporarily be a slave, seeking to earn their freedom or perhaps a skilled thief put in a collar as a punishment and simply biding their time.

Nobody, male or female, at the table should be � or is � forced to put up with anything they don�t want to.

Fantasy games, books, graphic novels, heck � fantasy art in general � is an opportunity to engage with and experience a world that doesn�t even have to exist. We don�t even have to like what occurs there to enjoy it. Just consider the popularity of horror novels, of splatterpunk films, reaction videos. It�s OK to enjoy �problematic things� and you don�t have to agree with them to enjoy it. A game world that is genuinely different is interesting, conflict is interesting, a bland, generic, everything is shiny and happy game world is dull as ditchwater.

It�s fantasy.

Your game is your own, make it your own.

Repeat that mantra.

When it comes to sexuality, Gor in the novels is presented as almost 100% heterosexual, though there are a few hints as to otherwise and one glaring exception that gives some hints that homosexuality is accepted within Gorean society and catered to by slavers. In short, there�s nothing whatsoever to stop you playing a gay or lesbian character and Gorean society doesn�t seem to give too much of a fig about it on a societal level.

Transgender issues are a bit more thorny. So if you�re sensitive, stop reading now.

Still want to read on?

Good.

Intersex conditions are likely to be viewed as deformity and the Goreans are pretty ruthless when it comes to babies with deformities, killing them almost all the time � for any deformity that cannot be healed or prevented by the physicians. Deformed people and cripples are viewed with disgust more than pity and even begging a living can become virtually impossible for them as in Gorean society it is seen as a deep insult to either be pitied or to be shown pity. It�s all a bit Spartan.

With that unpleasantness out of the way, what about people who aren�t intersex but feel that they�ve been born into the wrong sex? Given Gorean views on the importance of gender this is likely to be a very difficult path to go down and they�re more likely to be slotted into the homosexual identity than anything else. Some cultures have room for those who live differently than their obvious gender, the Red Savages in particular make young men who fail to become warriors live as women and it seems likely that the transplanted cultures of the jungles and of the barrens have also carried over cultural acceptance and spiritual reverence for this kind of thing.

It�d be a hard thing to play out, just as its a hard thing in real life, but the conflict between the hugely strict and important Gorean attitude to gender and someone who defies that could make for fascinating RP.

"Real patriarchy" is big honking men lifting stones and raping slaves, none of this namby-pamby culture war poo poo!

This one is particularly :jerkbag:

because I've been getting into history a lot lately (not that you really need to to know this poo poo). Pre-industrial worker-class women did a lot of loving backbreaking labor, but, no, -2 Str +2 Cha for ~verisimilitude's sake~.

Look, it's awesome to have fantasy worlds to role play in that have real problems for characters to struggle against, but don't bust out gender essentialist dogma as your reason, you loving hack. Appeal to the fact it's just how you want your fantasy, it's somehow less disgusting that way.

Also bonus Amazons stereotype as the one solid escape from Gorean bullshit, and double-bonus "it's not addressed in the books, but Imma say intersex people are viewed as cripples and killed at birth."

EDIT BTW: $1,190/$5,000 (flexible funding) with 33 days to go.

EDIT 2:

One of the two backer comments posted:

I�m also curious as to how those bronze pasties stay attached to the slave girls� breasts. Is that explained in your World Guide? ;-)

Jay Dee posted:

As to the pasties, that�s down to the prudishness that has developed since the 1970s. If you�re a fan of fantasy art you�ll know that it�s been an issue for a long time. Dejah Thoris� purple panties on a Barsoom novel cover by Michael Whelan, for one.

That Old Tree fucked around with this message at 04:10 on Aug 29, 2014

# ? Aug 29, 2014 04:04

Clanpot Shake: Aug 10, 2006; shake shake!

When I was reading the adversaries section, I noticed that most of the enemies has some special ability. It's ok, that they have them, but can't they just be talents? Especially if some of them are completely unreasonable. Eg. a noble you can tell you that he is important, and Fel Bonus number of enemies get's temporary lvl of fatigue because they are scared! If im fightning the noble, I probably know who he is. And there is no saving throw for it. Even if you are Inquisitor with your cadre, and you want to kill some spire noble, and he says "My father is important, you know? He has a whole manufactorium!" And you are like Oh ****, I dont want to mess with this guy.

Another ability of some preacher, that when he uses flame weapons, he cannot hit allies. Yeah, you charge the enemy, and lock them down, and I'll pour flaming prometheum on you, and you wont be hit.

This feels like special powers in video game, not actual RPG. I dont like it, I think its stupid. This, toghether with unreasonably high HP for master lvl enemies, almost make me see HEALTH BARS whenever i shoot someone.

# ? Aug 29, 2014 12:26

Free Gratis: Apr 17, 2002; Karate Jazz Wolf

Plague of Hats posted:

Look, it's awesome to have fantasy worlds to role play in that have real problems for characters to struggle against, but don't bust out gender essentialist dogma as your reason, you loving hack. Appeal to the fact it's just how you want your fantasy, it's somehow less disgusting that way.

Desborough is the gift that keeps on giving.

James Desborough via twitter posted:

I think we're all for equality, but I would argue women are more than equal now.
5:23pm - 29 Aug 14

I guess we need Chronicles of Gor to take them back down from "more than equal" to just equal then!

# ? Aug 29, 2014 23:45

dwarf74: Sep 2, 2012; Buglord

The only reason I think that 5e hasn't imposed a mechanical alignment restriction (as in, if you don't take Lawful alignment in a Monk you will lose class features or not be able to progress) is just due to marketing reasons. They didn't want to scare of the 4e crowd (it caters a lot to the snowflake 'don't-tell-me-how-my-character-must-be-I-follow-my-own-way' crowd).

People just want to have all the mechanical benefits with no RP downsides whatsoever. They don't like limits, find playing along with codes 'boring' instead of a challenge that makes a character a different experience than your average 'chaotic manga hero'.

=-=-=-=-=

And that's why shonen manga heroes don't really make any sense. Everyone who has played a sport or simply studied a discipline knows that talent by itself needs to be backed up by hard training. Most of Goku and Naruto's power-ups and improvements seem half-baked and plucked right from the writer's rear end.

That's precisely what I mean. People get the 'Chaotic Monk' reference from characters that lack complete verisimilitude. In a proper story, a character like Goku would become way more disciplined and methodic if he really became a Monk.

=-=-=-=

Geez... I'm not saying you can't do that stuff in 5e. I'm just giving reasons to why it makes little sense, and why you shouldn't. But of course, you can snowflake your character all you want. You want to pretend that you are a knight as a Barbarian? Be my guest.

Still, do not try to sell what's an oddity as a normality. Anything can happen, in theory, if you give it a cheesy backstory. My Sorceress could be the daughter of a dragon. Doesn't mean that I should come up with that background just because she's got dragon bloodline.

It's obvious why they removed the mechanic restriction. It's because restrictions don't sell. They asked the crowd, and there were more people who found alignment restrictions 'boring' than those who prefered them. I'm certainly going to keep it in my games.

# ? Aug 30, 2014 22:12

Boing: Jul 12, 2005; trapped in custom title factory, send help

grog posted:

When you're faced with 2 At-Wills, 2 Encounter Powers and 1 Daily and told to choose which to use against a Lesser Bugblatter, it's more confusing that being told "You have an axe. There's an enemy. What do you do?". If you're a non-4E Fighter, you simply "attack", and that's the right choice in most circumstances.

normal person posted:

Hmm. I guess I'm not seeing how 2 At-Wills, an Encounter and a Daily are overwhelming for newcomers. "You can use these any time, this once per battle, and this once per 'day,' which usually amounts to about four battles." Honestly, what I usually see trip people up is the concept of a 'day.'
"What, you mean like, as long as we're playing today, I can only use it once?"
"No, like an in-game day."
Which of course was a huge part of the mechanics back in 2/3e.

Also, importantly: "just attack" is super boring.

grog posted:

There are two things going on that make it unfriendly to new people - one is that you have a coin-flip choice right from the start - At-Will A or At-Will B - with no context to guide your choice. The other is that the names are obscure - do you want to bludge the quaffle or snitch the chaser?

"Just attack" is boring to you, but to a new player it's a lifeline - a familiar, comprehensible option in a sea of jargon. And some of my best times playing previous editions have been playing as a simple "Hit enemy. Repeat." character.

another grog posted:

..and quite frankly, if you are playing the class of smashing things and there aren't situations that "just attack" isn't tied for or is the optimal choice for the situation - your poo poo is too complicated. Dumb it down.

# ? Aug 31, 2014 16:54

Piell: Sep 3, 2006; Grey Worm's Ken doll-like groin throbbed with the anticipatory pleasure that only a slightly warm and moist piece of lemoncake could offer; Young Orc

We all know and understand the issues surrounding fighters and wizards, the linear/quadratic debate, the one-trick-pony/ultimate versitility comparison, and all the other parts of this subject which are summed up nicely in the 'Tier principle'. Trouble is, your approach to game design is arguably MORE horrifically flawed than the one used when creating the 3.0 classes in the first place. You are trying to make something which can out-do a wizard in mundane fashion, which is absurd on two fronts:
1) Magic will always trump mundane in broad strokes, and this is both fair and reasonable, even the most preternatural swordsman can't compete DIRECTLY with a portal which spews forth massive immortal demons. The swordsman SHOULD be able to deal with the demons spewed forth and perhaps even destroy the gate itself with an attack, and THAT'S the bit you're seeming to miss.
2) When attempting to fix up a very low-powered and limited class, deciding to do so by out-powering, in one specific area, the most (arguably) broken and overpowered class in the game is NOT a good or reasonable way of balancing it out.

# ? Sep 1, 2014 00:00

GorfZaplen: Jan 20, 2012

Again, exactly as I've played D&D for 30 years. Theatre of the mind, vivid descriptions, let the rules fall away. Everyone describing what's happening in game-world terms, not game-system terms. It's cool that people are rediscovering modes of play that are decades old. It seems to me the achievement of Dungeon World is to give enthusiasts of modern game design permission to play old-school D&D without losing their progressive cred.

# ? Sep 2, 2014 07:44

alg: Mar 14, 2007; A wolf was no less a wolf because a whim of chance caused him to run with the watch-dogs.

I think the better historical culture to relate the Empire to is the Roman Empire. Pax Romania had many positives along with the brutality of roman conquest. You can easily relate Star Wars to the turn from roman republic to empire. Is the Emperor more or less evil than Caesar? Did the Empire create the ability to travel and interaction between cultures that the Romans did?

# ? Sep 2, 2014 15:37

PST: Jul 5, 2012; If only Milliband had eaten a vegan sausage roll instead of a bacon sandwich, we wouldn't be in this mess.

For over a year now, I�ve had a nagging thought: Vehicles in Pathfinder should have levels. I mean Pathfinder is a game where everything has a level to it (or some level-derived scaling to it): characters, NPCs, monsters, spells, encounters, mass combat units, magic items, gold, expected damage per round, hit points, saving throws, DCs. And vehicles have none of that?!? Not only that, they do not have an XP value. So according to the rules of the game, So according to the rules of the game, facing a bad guy is just as difficult as facing that same bad guy in a mech. Does that make sense to anyone?
Don�t get me wrong, I love vehicles. Adding a vehicle can really make an encounter epic and memorable. Take kobolds for example, what are you likely to remember more: fighting a half dozen kobold or fighting a only 3 kobolds, but they are each driving a giant stone-worked dragon-looking cart that breaths fire? I�d hazard a guess that the latter is far more memorable.
The rules as written now have no scaling to them at all, outside of cost. Unfortunately, cost is not a good means of scaling. Compare this for a moment: By the time you are level 5, a group of adventurers can cut their way through a small army of hobgoblins. When they are done, they have a small fortune in mundane arms and armor that they can take to the closest city and cash in. But this is balanced against the weight of the arms and armor. The slower traveling speed and the inability for certain characters such as monks and rogues to not use all their abilities when weighed down means it is much easier for most groups to just leave the weapons and armor on the battlefield and forget them. Now compare that to the vehicle that the hobgoblins came in on. If that small army attacked from several keelboats (using Ultimate Combat stats), not only can they take vehicle and pilot themselves (with potentially a penalty if they do not have the requisite 8 person crew) to a port, but they can also carry all those arms and armor they could not before, allowing them to get even richer. And if they decide to sell it, they have a whopping amount of money to buy other items that the level scaling system says they should not otherwise have. The other options is to take the vehicle�s cost into the expected treasure value of the encounter, meaning the bad guys have less equipment with which to attack the PCs, meaning they deal less damage to the adventurers. See the problem here. It is a catch-22.
Now if vehicles had levels to them, a GM would have a guideline as to what kind of vehicle to send the bad guys in with. A GM can decide see that a glider, being a level 1 vehicle should be used by the army of goblins instead of an alchemical dragon.
So far, I really have made nothing more than a few minor reasons why a level system is required for vehicles. That was all set up for this: the GP value does not really mesh well with a vehicle�s abilities and difficulty to handle. For example, a 13,000 gp keelboat has 600 hp and requires a crew of 8. Compare that to a 10,000 gp sailing ship (again, both of these use Ultimate Combat stats), which is 50% larger, requires a crew of 20 and has 900 hp. Higher hit points are associated with a higher level. So is larger size and a larger number of followers (if you have the Leadership feat). All of which indicate that the sailing ship is a higher level vehicle. So why does it cost less? Like equipment and magic items, gold piece value is the scaling factor here. Unfortunately, the base rules do not work the way it should.
Then case of wagons. There is never a reason for players to buy a light or medium wagon. The light wagon cost 50 gp, can carry up to 1,000 lbs, has 60 hp, and requires a horse to pull it. The heavy wagon, by contrast cost 100 gp, can carry up to 4,000 lbs, 120 hp and, and requires the same horse to pull it as the light wagon as well as the same Drive check. Under a level system: everything would change. The heavy wagon would require 4 horses to pull it, meaning the DC for the Drive check would increase, but so would the amount of cargo that can be hauled. The amount of cargo the vehicle can carry is level dependent. With a level system, you can definitely say that a wagon can carry this much cargo at this level. Next the ramming damage should be changed. The ramming damage under a level system would change based on the level of the vehicle, not on its size. Sure, size should be a factor, but it should be the constant added onto the die roll, not the die roll itself. If it were a creature, its size should be the Strength modifier while the level determines the number of dice to roll for damage. On and on, all the vehicles should have level-based components to them.
Tell me what you think. Do you feel that vehicles should have a level?

# ? Sep 2, 2014 16:29

insanityv2: May 15, 2011; I'm gay

quote:

Hi, I just saw your game on kickstarter and I am worried about something, primarily because of your promotional art.

I really hate females in any game because it totally breaks the immersion, it's like being forced in real life to cross-dress. I never even considered buying Tomb Raider because of that.

So, will any class, ability, quest or anything at all be gender locked?
I don't even want to be forced to have a female companion.

ahahahhahahahah oh jesus christ

# ? Sep 2, 2014 18:20

kafziel: Nov 11, 2009

And of course the reply and follow-up.

quote:

Whole story concept is about a male and female apprentices, so it is an essential part of a story. You will have one male and one female charachter to role-play simultaneously.
Also, i don't really quite understand you attitude toward a female charachters, why you hate them (smile)

quote:

Oh crap, that's really bad news, pretty much ruined it for me.

I really wish developers would stop pandering to vulgar sexuality and heteronormativity already.
Overwhelming majority of gamers are male and only 18% played as female Shepard in Mass Effect 3, which was the most mainstream marketed game ever. Can't they take a hint from raw data already?

P.S.
I quite clearly explained why I hate them in the opening post, can't you read?

# ? Sep 2, 2014 19:18

JohnnyCanuck: May 28, 2004; Strong And/Or Free

Morbid topic, I know.

Suicide is a controversial subject. I would like to preface this post by saying I am asking about the game mechanics of handling the following scenarios. NOT about the morality, or personal feelings on the subject of suicide. That is a discussion for another place at another time.

Now, moving on.
In some cultures past (and some would argue present) the honorable suicide is not uncommon, especially among warrior types. To this day the phrase "fall on your/my sword" is used when describing self sacrifice for the presumed greater good (or when joking about such).

Many PCs are warrior types. So how would you handle the mechanics of character Suicide?
I mean, mechanically, your average Grackletooth stabbed themselves with a vibrosword numerous times in order to die, and they may pass out before dying.
Does Suicide get a pass on normal damage rules? Insta-Death?

If so does that apply to only honourable suicides or other suicides?

If you allow suicide to bypass normal damage rules what about staged suicide, or assisted suicide?

# ? Sep 2, 2014 19:46

ObMeiste: Oct 7, 2003; The Boss doesn't like you. Get out now or you'll have some real trouble.

Surprisingly someone on tumblr posted:

Just because I feel like ranting, I�ve been noticing posts about some new illustration in a D&D book of a �typical� human; which is now a black woman. One question�
WHY?
Since when are black women (or blacks or women for that matter) a large part of the playerbase? If the main demographic of the game�s and book�s fans are and always has been white men, why change something established to suit your want for representation?
Here�s a clue: NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS TO REPRESENT EVERYONE. Don�t like it? Don�t loving take it over. Just avoid what you don�t want to read or see. It�s amazingly easy to do.

I personally don�t read books, play games or watch movies because I�m looking for representation. I seek out what entertains me- not what I feel shows characters that could actually be me or live my life. I�m a girl. Does fantasy represent women? Well� you know what? Yeah. There�s a lot of it out there written by women, and/or for women, and/or featuring female leads or female-centric worlds and stories.
But do I enjoy or seek that side of it out because OH NOES MALE CHARACTERS ARE ALL -EVIL- AND -OPPRESS- ME?
Not. At. All. I hate quite a bit of it, actually.

What the gently caress is even UP with this new trend of changing everything to suit the wants of butthurting minorities? They wouldn�t want their poo poo taken over by white, straight male representation, why think they have a loving right to take over other people�s established universes? What�s already there is it: don�t fix what isn�t broke in the eyes of those who made and enjoy it. Don�t say that this book, that game, or those movies would have been better with a gay, a tranny or a �colored� person. You don�t like it, too drat bad.
If you are even capable of it, make and write your OWN stories. Don�t make other people write them for you.

P.S. DnD has always been a game of imagination and yes, interpretation of the rules as the group sees fit. Can�t play as a black tranny girl �cause it doesn�t specifically say you can? Your lack of imagination is not someone else�s problem to fix.

Someone other than white males in my D&D? Minorities lack imagination! :argh:

# ? Sep 2, 2014 20:40

Owlbear Camus: Jan 3, 2013; Maybe this guy that flies is just sort of passing through, you know?

He seriously in the space of two sentences complains bitterly that someone different from him is being represented, then disclaims caring about representation. I'm sure he doesn't think of it as "representation" when it's the "default."

Grog tithe:

quote:

quote:
Surprise! We're ambushed by the bandits.

However, these bandits are no joke as they're organized and tough as nails. It's a tough fight, but in the end we are victorious (it is 4e D&D after all).

It is during the course of the fight that a situation arose which destroyed my immersion in the scene. My character was reduced to below zero hit points and knocked unconscious. The pacifist halfling cleric was going to use a power to heal my character, but the only thing he had left in his arsenal was a burst healing power. Another player who's character was missing hit points insisted! that the cleric player should delay his action so that this other player's character can move and get into the burst to be healed. He whined about it until the cleric player relented and held his life-saving healing action until the other wounded player could move across the board and get into the healing burst too.

This kind of blew the whole scene and vibe for me because there was no logical, in-game, reason for the halfling cleric to wait to save my character's life. My minotaur was lying unconscious and bleeding out with two opponents still intent on killing him, and the cleric delays moving to his aid to save his life because another character on the other side of the fight has to run over and get into the healing burst just to get some hit points back. This broke the verisimilitude for me, and, consequently, the immersion I was experiencing up to that moment in the encounter and game session.

Not a big fan of spells like that, personally. Fireball makes sense to hit everyone in an area...healing bursts, not so much.

"A magical burst of fire conjured from nowhere makes sense, but a burst of healing magic is a bridge too far for my verisimilitudes!"

Owlbear Camus fucked around with this message at 02:08 on Sep 3, 2014

# ? Sep 2, 2014 23:33

Chaltab: Feb 16, 2011; So shocked someone got me an avatar!

Otisburg posted:

Grog tithe:

You left out the best part.

quote:

A couple of weeks ago, my group of life-long friends got together for our second Mancation. Mancation is where all the guys get together without significant others and children for the weekend and hang out. We drink, smoke, and play games: card, dice, board, console, and, naturally, RPGs. If any remember, my group drank the 4e D&D Kool-Aid up until the release of 4.5 D&D... er, the D&D Essentials line. After the release of D&D Essentials, they stopped dipping their cups into the punch bowl and stopped playing 4e D&D altogether. We now use the 6e HERO System.

I don't know what's funnier: bashing the edition treadmill of D&D a line before proclaiming his liking for the SIXTH edition of HERO, or the comparison of a game to a mass cult suicide.

edit; a charming aside from our old friend ExploderWizard

quote:

Well, since all WOTC D&D is special olympics material, its all good.

Chaltab fucked around with this message at 01:37 on Sep 3, 2014

# ? Sep 3, 2014 01:35

Free Gratis: Apr 17, 2002; Karate Jazz Wolf

Chaltab posted:

I don't know what's funnier: bashing the edition treadmill of D&D a line before proclaiming his liking for the SIXTH edition of HERO, or the comparison of a game to a mass cult suicide.

Eh, the use of "drinking the kool-aid" to mean acceptance or indoctrination has permeated society to point where a lot of people don't even know the origin of the phrase beyond "oh yeah, uh, something happened right?"

Here have some more Desborough.

quote:

From the RPGNet thread in which the usual people like Darren, are being shartdukes:

Challenge for any Gor fans: Give me 3 cool plot lines which riff off of Gor's gender politics and which would make for a fun adventure.

1. A rich merchant's love slave was taken from him by bandits during a raid on his caravan. She has since been sold and traded from hand to hand across Gor and must be tracked down. He'll pay any price, but she never loved him but is in - mutual love - with her current master (when she's found).

2. A punitive raid into the Northern Forests to deal with the Panther Girl problem 'once and for all' descends in a fantasy Vietnam. The Ubar behind the raid is driven by his own ego and his secret shame at having been caught by Panthers and sold as an oar slave in the past.

3. Drugged and enslaved the group awaken within the seraglio of a wealthy and powerful woman. They're intended to be her house and silk slaves but escape from the compound may be possible - if they work together and work hard to gain the mistress' favour.

You see! Women can be just as awful as men! EQUALITY!

# ? Sep 3, 2014 02:39

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# ? Apr 27, 2024 20:09

Erebro: Apr 28, 2013

Oh, but let's not forget the promotional teaser!

Desborough continuing to believe there is no such thing as bad publicity posted:

Exotic: Certain slaver houses spend generations breeding slaves for particular traits. Usually this is simply a �bred slave�, chosen for beauty, submission and responsiveness. More rarely slaves are bred with an eye to collectors or other purposes. Some have been bred for a particular deformity or physical trait, some for things as exotic as stripes or poisonous saliva glands.

Another form of exotic is a slave girl raised in total isolation from men in perfect and absolute innocence. These are purchased for victory feasts and the first they know of men is serving, wholly, at that event. Many of these slaves, traumatized by their experience, commit suicide.

I reiterate: promotional.

Think about it.

Erebro fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Sep 3, 2014

# ? Sep 3, 2014 02:51

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Traditional Games > grognards.txt - sandbox gamers are the John Galts of the RPG world

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