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serious q: why do you think these people will buy your linux computers instead of buying some similar hardware and pirating windows xp libreoffice is a fuckshow sorry computers means microsoft (or apple if you're rule 36 as gently caress)
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Aug 31, 2014 17:01
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Suspicious Dish posted:Guatemala and Rio are developing countries, not third world countries. They already have running water, clothes, TV, and sometimes internet. rio is a city, not a country, dipshit
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Aug 31, 2014 17:13
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Mr Dog posted:serious q: why do you think these people will buy your linux computers instead of buying some similar hardware and pirating windows xp They don't want Windows XP: it's virus-ridden, unsupported, and they don't like working with it. "Windows" to them is an IE with 18 toolbars that they've used in an Internet Cafe. Traditional hardware is also too big, too expensive, too noisy and too power-hungry. User testing so far shows that they are quite happy with LibreOffice, it matches with the version of MS Office they're trained on in schools, and they're quite comfortable with it. Our user testing report posted:Office programs are the same when you are new to computers - The girls have a little experience with computers because they previously had classes that taught them how to write documents and create presentations, but they don’t have knowledge enough to identify the difference between Microsoft Office or LibreOffice. For the sisters, LibreOffice programs were equivalent to the programs they used and learned in school. Not a big deal. They felt comfortable trying the presentations program.
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Aug 31, 2014 17:29
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Cocoa Crispies posted:rio is a city, not a country, dipshit Whoops, gently caress. I was phone posting last night and messed that one up bad.
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Aug 31, 2014 17:29
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its pretty, can I buy one?
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Aug 31, 2014 17:34
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prefect posted:what's the lumpy white-and-red thing? its u
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Aug 31, 2014 17:35
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computer toucher posted:its pretty, can I buy one? Mission or the UFOputer?
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Aug 31, 2014 17:38
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z0rlandi viSSer posted:its u nice
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Aug 31, 2014 18:06
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Suspicious Dish posted:They don't want Windows XP: it's virus-ridden, unsupported, and they don't like working with it. "Windows" to them is an IE with 18 toolbars that they've used in an Internet Cafe. yeah and it's also the only os that will run poo poo they want to run if they're buying a computer if they just want to browse the internet and send email they'll just buy an android phone or shitlet like good little consumers  i would like to see it succeed, but the oss community's decades-long "convert the third world poors" strategy didn't work with OLPC, it didn't work with the numerous projects to switch local governments over to oss, and it isn't going to work with your thing either. it doesn't even need to get drowned by microsoft bribes, it just never reaches broad user acceptance in the first place. technical superiority doesn't mean a loving thing. nothing. zero. less than zero. you are posting on a forum written in loving php.
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Aug 31, 2014 18:33
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it's probably all the yospos talking but i wish i was optimistic a person as you Suspicious Dish
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Aug 31, 2014 18:36
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Mr Dog posted:yeah and it's also the only os that will run poo poo they want to run if they're buying a computer mr. dog it seems to me like suspicious dish's company has done a lot more market research than you and you're bitter for some reason 
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Aug 31, 2014 18:54
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I'd buy one if you call it Los Computadoras
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Aug 31, 2014 19:04
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The Three Amigas
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Aug 31, 2014 19:08
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Silver Alicorn posted:mr. dog it seems to me like suspicious dish's company has done a lot more market research than you and you're bitter for some reason theyre distributing a linux they probably havent
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Aug 31, 2014 19:16
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Bloody posted:theyre distributing a linux they probably havent
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Aug 31, 2014 19:18
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Silver Alicorn posted:mr. dog it seems to me like suspicious dish's company has done a lot more market research than you and you're bitter for some reason hey i'd be happy to be proven wrong, but this particular adventure does have precedent and not good precedent either. then again they said that about tablet computers and welp ipad happened v  v
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Aug 31, 2014 19:38
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well the OLPC was a piece of poo poo and also it was being sold to places that didn't have electricity or water or chairs it's not the same
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Aug 31, 2014 19:44
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Mr Dog posted:hey i'd be happy to be proven wrong, but this particular adventure does have precedent and not good precedent either. You need to understand that this is a market that has smartphones, that has tablets, and still wants computers. To make a terrible car analogy, it's the difference between a car and a motorcycle. In fully developed countries, you can afford a car, so you save up for a car, and then if you have a little extra more, you buy a motorcycle as a status symbol. In these countries, you can only afford a motorcycle, so everybody has motorcycles, except for the small elite that can afford cars, and they buy cars as a status symbol. Everybody wants computers. I honestly believe that the desktop market won't disappear as the analysts think it will: the guy who's writing the "The Desktop Computer Is Dying" article every week on Forbes did it on a loving desktop PC. He ain't typing it on a tablet or smartphone. OLPC is a different story -- OLPC was a fairly successful project, but it was a non-profit, and it was aimed too low, to people without running water or anything like that. The OLPC business strategy was "buy a fancy new toy, and also sell one to someone in Africa", which meant that as soon as the toy went out of vogue, you have no more money. There's also no real motivation to improve the product, because the people who are using it aren't really paying for it. Here, we're a for-profit company -- if people don't like our computers, they don't loving sell, so we need to improve them so that they sell. There's plenty of ideas here about how to make great computers, but I don't think "running existing apps" is a big piece of the puzzle. Their install base for computers that most people use is in Internet Cafes, and they're not tied to any one app.
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Aug 31, 2014 20:41
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hey suspicious dish, I don't want to sound condescending or anything and I don't know poo poo about guatemala but here's a crash course on brazil because idk, I think the markets may be way more different than you're imagining: - lots of people do have a soft spot for windows xp, it's funny. it's kinda like how my dad has a soft spot for windows 95 being the best operating system ever. - brazil isn't a fully developed country but holy poo poo, the car culture here is almost as strong as in the US. there's a lot of incentive from the government to buy a car, and now with the emergence of a new lower middle class, owning a car isn't that big a deal as it was 20 years ago. - in brazil we speak portuguese so be careful if you bring these computers with spanish boxes. I guarantee everyone will hate it because... that's a thing brazilians do, we hate the spanish language. - desktop computers are kinda expensive, so people usually buy laptops. really lovely but cheap laptops like Positivo. idk the prices you're aiming for, but if you can somehow convince that they're better than those laptops then... well the thing is, rich people have expensive laptops. not so rich people want to feel the same way (owning a laptop!), even if they never bring out the laptops out of their house. it sounds like a tough scenario to compete with. - cheap samsung cellphones are ridiculously popular. I ride the bus everyday and man, it's like a 1/3 of the people have one, I'm not kidding. - apple products cost like 3 times more because taxes. this is not true for EVERY tech gadget (see samsung being popular), there's something really weird going on with apple. anyway if you know a brazilian who uses an apple product then, objectively speaking, he's a total tool.
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Aug 31, 2014 22:35
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Symbolic Butt posted:- apple products cost like 3 times more because taxes. this is not true for EVERY tech gadget (see samsung being popular), there's something really weird going on with apple. anyway if you know a brazilian who uses an apple product then, objectively speaking, he's a total tool. rule 36 still applies in brazil
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Aug 31, 2014 22:48
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I know all those things. Of course we won't ship a Spanish product in Brazil: the boxes you saw were for Guatemala, as that's going to be our first pilot release for Mission. Our product currently has full Portuguese and Spanish translations, with Arabic support coming soon (for another pilot country). We have a ground team in Rio and we actively deploy and do user testing for our customers there. I'm aware of the growing ownership of cars as people move out of the favelas and into the higher classes. That's to be expected. The car analogy was more to make a point about smartphone / computer ownership, and why they want real desktops instead of just smartphones. We want to build a cheap, luxurious PC for the lower-middle class there. We aren't going after the rich people: our mission is about empowering the people who have nothing else for them. Give them a built-in budgeting tool, give them Khan Academy, give them Wikipedia, a bunch of other offline content. Make an app to help them save up for a vacation, and having local areas for vacationing around Rio, and how much it would cost. They might have to save up for a few months to buy a computer, but that's OK. We know that there's plenty of demand for our machine when we talked to computer retailers there. Shipping our own hardware is first stage until we can support our own OS on lots more hardware configurations. We talked with Positivo and they want to put our OS on their laptops, but we can't do that until our software works with arbitrary PCs. If the end game is that Chinese manufacturers commoditize our hardware and make cheap knockoffs with our own OS and does the engineering to make it work, loving great. We'll exit the hardware business in a flash. Now the Brazilian people have a cheaper machine. That said, I'm not an expert in Rio markets. This is all stuff I'm relaying from our ground team and our CEO, who's been there doing user testing many, many times.
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Aug 31, 2014 23:56
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Suspicious Dish posted:I know all those things. oh welp  Suspicious Dish posted:Of course we won't ship a Spanish product in Brazil: the boxes you saw were for Guatemala, as that's going to be our first pilot release for Mission. Our product currently has full Portuguese and Spanish translations, with Arabic support coming soon (for another pilot country). ok, it's just that I've seen this kinda thing happen before. I don't know why foreign people have a hard time remembering that portuguese and spanish are different languages. as mj said, they just don't care about us  Suspicious Dish posted:We want to build a cheap, luxurious PC for the lower-middle class there. We aren't going after the rich people I tried to point out the tendency of people emulating the richer, I wasn't really considering the market for upper class people. I never been in Rio, but just as an example, my family on my mom's side lives in a favela in São Paulo. it's not one of the extremely bad and violent favelas or anything. they're way better economically nowadays but they never moved. they (and their neighbors) got hugeass tvs now. anyway it sounds like a great deal to me, I'll totally buy the Mission, it looks neat. but I'm not like everyone, I'm a dumb turbonerd. I'm not sure people would see these computers as a more attractive thing to save up money for than a lovely laptop. mr dog's pessimism at some points doesn't sound out of place to me
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Sep 1, 2014 01:07
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Sure. I certainly welcome the feedback and experience and discussion here. I'm more optimistic than most, but still acknowledge the whole thing can crash and burn at any moment. It's a San Fransisco startup. I know it's not going to be stable forever, but I'm going to remain proud of what we built, and really enjoy the ride until then. I'll be visiting Guatemala for three weeks from September 7th to October 1st to do real user testing and get real feedback. I'll certainly update you guys with what I find there.
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Sep 1, 2014 01:39
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Suspicious Dish posted:If the end game is that Chinese manufacturers commoditize our hardware and make cheap knockoffs with our own OS and does the engineering to make it work, loving great. We'll exit the hardware business in a flash. Now the Brazilian people have a cheaper machine. uuh the chinese will make counterfeit knockoffs of your poo poo or they'll make something that kinda sorta maybe works for six months before it falls apart and the NAND flash chips poo poo themselves, it'll have GPL violations out the rear end, binary blobs everywhere, a kernel that's like two years out of date, probably their own advertising shitware built into the browser too. and it'll be cheaper than your product and that'll be all that matters. nobody wins here except the fly by night chinese operation. after all this is exactly what happened for Androids in emerging countries, that's what you get when you try to push an open source os. google didn't rush to vacuum everything in Android into the proprietary locked-down Google Play Services module becaues they're evil masterminds pulling a bait and switch, they did it because they had your open source hippy naivete about Android, and it was going nowhere fast until they lubed up, bent over and let the US carriers completely have their way with it. Then they discovered that both carriers and OEMs are complete dickheads of the highest order so they had to make lots of things proprietary in order to get some kind of leverage against them.
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Sep 1, 2014 02:01
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selling poo poo to poors is either always profitable (crack cocainr) or never profitable (poo poo Linux computers )
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Sep 1, 2014 03:09
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http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html lennart poettering did another thing
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Sep 1, 2014 04:27
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there's already small formfactor linux/android computers in existence is this a custom design or is it a recased one that already exists for the economy of scale (great way to get rid of all those ouyas)
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Sep 1, 2014 05:43
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Suspicious Dish posted:Mission or the UFOputer? The UFOputer looks like someone forgot a dollar store plastic tray in the sun. On a volleyball.
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Sep 1, 2014 07:31
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Mr Dog posted:http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html i always thought that maybe, despite appearances, poettering was a beacon of hope because he was trying to bring obvious right ideas to linux even if he was being a dumb while doing it, and also because he was pissing off the right kind of people. welp it's like he and his cabal read ingo molnar's posts, didn't quite get the point, and tried to come up with a solution which preserves the idiot manchild linux distribution system in some form trying to solve linux dll hell is a worthy goal but doing it by bunging every version of every distro into its own fs snapshot is loving dumb, the system will melt down when every app links a diff version of the same library. the answer is actually committing to a few long term stable abis, maybe lennart isn't talking about that because it can't be addressed by a bikeshedding project headed by him under the existing regime, poo poo as simple as motherfucking copy and paste breaks on me, all the time. i can't imagine how much worse a shitshow linux will become if a million distros bloom under /usr suspicious dish i am v sympathetic to the reasons you left redhate, and i like you, so i hope for your sake that someday someone waylands the everliving gently caress out of all the levels of the linux gui stack above the compositor. just like x11 there is a lot of horrible poo poo long overdue for flushing
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Sep 1, 2014 09:08
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Mr Dog posted:http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html this seems sensible idk
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Sep 1, 2014 09:18
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maybe they should think more about fixing the cause (garbage libs whose regressions are going undetected/ignored) instead of the symptom (apps that use those garbage libs having version-specific problems) also there's already a version numbering system for dynamically linked libraries (albeit one that mostly goes by convention)
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Sep 1, 2014 09:26
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Suspicious Dish, just make sure you're getting paid in cash and not equity or stock options or something. COLD HARD CASH NOW
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Sep 1, 2014 10:24
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lunix posted:Many people when they hear the word "btrfs" instantly reply with "is it ready yet?". Thankfully, most of the functionality we really need here is strictly read-only. With the exception of the home sub-volumes (see below) all snapshots are strictly read-only, and are delivered as immutable vendor trees onto the devices. They never are changed. Even if btrfs might still be immature, for this kind of read-only logic it should be more than good enough lol
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Sep 1, 2014 11:25
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Progressive JPEG posted:maybe they should think more about fixing the cause (garbage libs whose regressions are going undetected/ignored) instead of the symptom (apps that use those garbage libs having version-specific problems) lovely packaging is enough of a social problem that Linux folks would rather try to hamfist a code alternative than raise any kind of personal conflict
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Sep 1, 2014 11:28
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Symbolic Butt posted:- apple products cost like 3 times more because taxes. this is not true for EVERY tech gadget (see samsung being popular), there's something really weird going on with apple. anyway if you know a brazilian who uses an apple product then, objectively speaking, he's a total tool. the brazilians i know with apple products seemed pretty cool, but they could afford to make trips to the us to buy 'em lol if you're ever on a flight from MIA to GRU or GIG everything about peoples' checked luggage is hilarious: the worst kind of baggage completely overstuffed with stuff that's cheap here
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Sep 1, 2014 12:09
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Cocoa Crispies posted:the brazilians i know with apple products seemed pretty cool, but they could afford to make trips to the us to buy 'em lol blame the import tariffs Rich Brazilians will go to London (lol) because apple stuff is cheaper in the UK
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Sep 1, 2014 12:17
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I used to work in a lovely retail chain in Vancouver and waves of kids from Brazil would come in asking for "ipoj with beeg jeegahs"
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Sep 1, 2014 13:42
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parts of it i like, parts of it i don't like. the thing is, systemd eliminated a lot of the reasons that distros have to exist (pointless duplication of system-level glue scripts that all got unified into something sensible now that systemd is around). maybe that's why there was so much pushback to systemd: it was an existential threat to distros. i don't really need to preserve "choice" around what i want to call /etc/hostname because it just isn't important. this WinSxS-on-crack proposal is a technical solution for a political problem. i don't particularly like it because it's going to turn a flat fs hierarchy into a namespaced, aliased, hall-of-mirrors hell. the political solution is that all linux distros except one need to die. i don't give a crap whether the resulting thing uses deb or rpm or loving pacman. make a single linux with a rolling release model, then snapshot that every year or two and backport security fixes to that snapshot for the next five (or however long). but that is never going to happen because redhat and suse and loving canonical all want to continue to make money, US operations mostly use RHEL, european operations I guess use SLES, and Canonical really needs to gently caress off and die. At that point upstream can create and push packages for The One True Distro as and when they become ready, and they can maintain those packages within the stable snapshots. Use "sonames" or whatever the drat mechanism is called together with the One True Package Manager to install all of these library versions side by side in a plain and stupid /usr/lib/<platform triple>/ directory (i.e. do multiarch the Debian way because everything else is a hack) without any WinSxS style filesystem virtualisation and namespacing bullshit to cover for library authors' laziness.
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Sep 1, 2014 14:02
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anyway kdbus and gnome sandboxes will solve this for the narrow case of desktop applications (which tbh nobody really cares about for linux anyway). so you'll have a sandboxed GNOME Weather applet and GNOME Music application that can be released to users directly via self-contained release ZIPs from upstream downloaded via the GNOME Software application. Great. app stores don't really work for server applications though, which is why I'm not so keen on this one-size-fits-all solution. There the problem is slightly different: all of the languages used to develop server apps have their own siloed package managers which don't interact with rpm or deb at all (node.js npm, Java maven, Perl CPAN, whatever thing Python has). But arguably that isn't important as long as you wall off some chunk of the FHS for them to play in, then set up ansible/puppet/whatever to use the system-level package manager to install your db servers and managed code VMs, then in parallel command the managed code VM package managers to install your application packages. I dunno. It doesn't seem like a problem that really needs fixing. The only real area where this becomes a problem is when you have rpm/deb-packaged desktop apps written in these managed langs. Then you end up making rpm/deb packages for CPAN modules or whatever and it all goes straight to hell. Either way these are two very different problems with very different desired final solutions. Poettering's Hall of Mirrors doesn't really seem to solve either of them particularly well.
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Sep 1, 2014 14:13
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what is a directory solution for a linux workgroup that doesn't suck rear end?
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