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Lt. Danger posted:Once the knife comes out, that's it - the knife is always out. Kenny and Jane would never be able to talk again in a hypothetical future because they've not only shouted at each other and hit each other, but Jane pulled a knife, and once you've done any of those you can never go back down because you could always theoretically go back up. That's it, wrap it up gentlemen, Kenny and Jane have reached DEFCON Knife. Or you could drop the knife to make it clear you're not going to stab the other person with it in the upcoming fight. There was never any chance there wasn't going to be a fight, jane made that clear going in (and in fact her whole plan depended on it). By pulling a weapon she turned it into a knife fight and the only way it wasn't going to end as a knife fight is if she had dropped the knife. Even then Kenny might have picked it up but that's what happens when you escalate a fistfight by adding weapons to it. People generally don't wind back easily.
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Sep 1, 2014 17:55
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Jane taking her knife out is literally the same as if she had nuked Florida.
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Sep 1, 2014 17:57
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Mymla posted:Jane taking her knife out is literally the same as if she had nuked Florida. How forgiving would you have been if Kenny had pulled a knife on someone? (Even if he fixed everything by putting it away.) It's kind of a big deal today, it's probably more serious in a post apocalyptic blizzard surrounded by zombies where the cops won't intervene.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:01
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A bit late playing this, but I actually kind of liked the ending. I played through trying to keep the group together for the most part, but when it came down to it I stayed with Kenny because Kenny's shown a hell of a lot more loyalty then anyone else. Kenny's growing distrust of Jane throughout the episode kind of confused me, until we had the conversation at the car and he went "she looks like another Lily situation". And that actually made things fall into place for me, by looking at Kenny's point of view. Sure, WE know that Jane is a good person (or at least wants to be one), but that's because Clem's the only one who she actually talks and confides to. For Kenny, he's had to live through 3 separate groups of survivors destroying themselves, each time losing or thinking he lost someone he loved in the process (Season 1 - Duck and Katjaa, Episode 2/3 - Everyone at the Ski Lodge and then Sarita, Episode 5 - AJ). Frankly, I think its a miracle he's as capable and functioning as he is. And regardless of how season 1 plays out, Lily straight up murders a member of the party and (in my playthrough) steals the group's RV, leaving him and his family to fend for themselves. From Kenny's point of view, Jane looks pretty drat similar to Lily; he's known her for what, a week total? And in that time he's seen her shoot a guy in the dick and leave him for walker bait, rob a teenager which directly leads to the group getting attacked later, gently caress Luke when he's supposed to be on watch (which can lead directly to Sarah dying) and then straight up leave the group when they arguably need her the most. She then spends the rest of the final episode talking about how unstable and unreliable Kenny is and antagonizing Kenny at every turn (sure, Kenny's an rear end in a top hat about it, but he's also the guy who got the truck running, took a beating for Clem and is apparently the only one other then Clem who gives a poo poo about protecting the baby. Maybe shut up and say "thanks Kenny for being reliable"? Also, Kenny wanted to just shoot Arvo and move along. Y'know, to that town across the river we were originally going to? Luke would still be alive if everyone had just listened to him). What I'm getting at is that with Kenny's experiences, and Jane's complete lack of empathy (HAHA YOUR DEAD FAMILY)/ track record of looking out for number 1, when she shows up at the end minus baby, no signs of even looking like she tried to save the baby, and not even bothering to try to explain what happened ("It was an accident!" What the gently caress does that even mean? How do you "accidentally" lose/kill a baby you were holding?!) yeah, completely believable that she'd leave a small child to die to save herself. If you were Kenny, would you want that person to be with your group so she can maybe let Clem die next? For what it's worth, I don't think Kenny was planning to kill her. Beat the poo poo out of, yes, leave her rear end at the rest stop, but once she pulled the knife and cut him, there was no coming back. Like it was mentioned earlier, if Kenny's shown that if he's wrong he'll pull back and control himself, but that wasn't an option once Jane went murderous and hosed up his one good eye. I think at that point he went into the red and it was only going to end with one of them dying. That end choice was BRUTAL for me, because I didn't want to just let Kenny murder someone in front of me, but I knew I'd regret shooting him (I let Ben die in season 1 and I've always felt terrible about it) and also he's always tried to protect Clem. The timer ended up running out for me, so I got to see a REALLY uncomfortable death scene and got the Wellington ending which was so. loving. emotional. It really did give Kenny a great ending for his story arc, and made it worth sticking with his rageaholic redneck rear end.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:04
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Heliotic posted:How forgiving would you have been if Kenny had pulled a knife on someone? (Even if he fixed everything by putting it away.) Jane pulls it while backing off, tells Kenny to stay away from her, and then, when he stops advancing on her, sheathes it. It's clear she isn't drawing it to kill him, but to try to stop him from attacking her. If Kenny did so, everything would have ended there.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:04
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Android Blues posted:Jane pulls it while backing off, tells Kenny to stay away from her, and then, when he stops advancing on her, sheathes it. It's clear she isn't drawing it to kill him, but to try to stop him from attacking her. If Kenny did so, everything would have ended there. So what happens then? Her big plan to expose Kenny fails and she just leaves? Her entire plan was to -get him- to attack her.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:07
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Tekopo posted:AJ was in cahoots with Jane because he 'conveniently' stopped crying when Kenny went out to look for him.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:15
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Carver could've prevented this.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:19
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Heliotic posted:So what happens then? Her big plan to expose Kenny fails and she just leaves? Her plan was to expose Kenny as unstable and violent, but it's clear Jane is willing to be wrong by the fact that she gives him every chance not to fight her. He instigates the violence in every case: he swings for her, he charges her after she sheathes the knife, she tries to explain while he shouts that she's lying. She fights back once he tries to choke her to death, but before that, she's wary, defensive, and trying to get him to stand down. If she wasn't totally right about Kenny being unstable and violent, no fight happens and things probably get real awkward but, more importantly, nobody ends up dead. She sets up the circumstance that she thinks will set him off, but past that, she's clearly willing not to fight him if it turns out she's wrong about his violent tendencies.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:20
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Aside from my aforementioned desire that the ending be between going with Kenny or going with Luke and Jane there was no way I was ever going to not pick the ending I did. From Episode 2 onward I picked [hug Kenny] and never let go. Kenny is a Lee Bro 4 Life, even when they didn't get along Kenny went with my Lee to go save Clem. Kenny is family, and you don't leave family goddammit  . If there had been an option to tell the new group to gently caress off and never come back at the ski lodge, I would have gleefully taken it. Kenny took a vicious beating for Clem, and clearly would have died for her if that's what it took. I don't care how crazy he got at the end, Kenny's my bro and you don't abandon bros just because they get sangry when their girlfriend dies or they slap around a little shitbird who led his heavily armed crew back to mug you. Do I wish Jane didn't have to die? Sure, that was kind of a bummer, but if there had been a [shoot Jane] option, I probably would've taken it. Or at least a [threaten Jane with gun and tell her to piss off] option. In the end, Kenny's family. And you don't abandon family. He didn't abandon Clem when she needed him, Clem sure as hell isn't going to abandon Kenny at his lowest.
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Sep 1, 2014 18:40
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Heliotic posted:How forgiving would you have been if Kenny had pulled a knife on someone? (Even if he fixed everything by putting it away.) Yeah, if he put it away, which he wouldn't have. I don't even dislike Kenny, he just lost it after Sarita died. He was kinda losing it before, but that was really the last big straw.
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Sep 1, 2014 19:07
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Lt. Danger posted:Look dudes violence is wrong. It's wrong even if the other person is horrible and evil. It's wrong even if you're really, really mad. It's wrong even if you think they did something really terrible. It's wrong even if they're deliberately trying to upset you. It's wrong even if they started it but now they've stopped (putting the knife away is stopping). Violence is wrong and the whole reason The Walking Dead is a horror story is that violence has become common despite the audience's sensibilities. Is violence also wrong in self-defense? Is it wrong in the defense of others? Is it wrong no matter what someone else has just done? If Jane had indisputably killed AJ, then stood by Kenny mocking him about it, maybe singing a little song about how funny it is his familes keep dying, is it still utterly unjustifiable for Kenny to hit her? If it's still wrong there, how about if she turns towards Clem and announces her intent to kill her next? Still wrong? "violence is wrong" is a stupid absolute that has no grounding in the real world, let along a zombie apocalypse.
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Sep 1, 2014 19:41
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I think the ending would of been a thousand times better if they kept the option to shoot Mike actually. You just killed him from stealing from you (or attempting to), I think it would of given the ending more of a impact when it comes to Kenny due to people saying "I wish I could of shot Mike." then turning around with. "I'm not going to let a person kill another person."
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Sep 1, 2014 19:48
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Android Blues posted:Her plan was to expose Kenny as unstable and violent, but it's clear Jane is willing to be wrong by the fact that she gives him every chance not to fight her. He instigates the violence in every case: he swings for her, he charges her after she sheathes the knife, she tries to explain while he shouts that she's lying. She could have gotten him to stand down by just saying "hey the baby is still alive, PSYCH!" In fact she had numerous opportunities to do so during the fight, once she had supposedly proven that Kenny was unstable and blah blah blah. She didn't, not once. Which leads me to think that Jane had no intention to actually deescalate the fight. She wanted him to die, and wanted a good excuse so she could look like the good guy to Clem because she was just an "innocent person being attacked." Then she got Clem to do the dirty work of killing Kenny because she couldn't do it. Nice job, Jane. You are a hero for the ages.
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Sep 1, 2014 19:49
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Sushipants posted:Wellington ending which was so. loving. emotional. I had Clem shoot Kenny and had to restrain myself from bursting into sobs. Goddamit Jane you're loving insane.
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Sep 1, 2014 19:49
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Kraps posted:I had Clem shoot Kenny and had to restrain myself from bursting into sobs. Goddamit Jane you're loving insane. Yeah that's what I did, too. I hoped he'd go all "Why, Clem?", partly because after two games you learned to expect this as the default response for not siding with someone, partly because having him hate you for it is easier to swallow. Instead having him acknowledge how he hosed up everything up so much that he made the girl that's like a daughter to him shoot him was pretty heart-breaking for me. I'm a sucker for this kinda poo poo.
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Sep 1, 2014 20:01
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Lt. Danger posted:Stand your ground is wrong. If that's the case, then Jane should have loving run during the numerous opportunities to do so. Thank you for agreeing that Jane was wrong.
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Sep 1, 2014 20:04
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If you side with Kenny or Jane is entirely dependent on how you played the game. In my game Kenny basically called Clem a traitor because she didn't back him 100% of the time, wanted to go to Wellington even though two people (clem and jane) wanted to go back, started hating Jane just because she didn't want to go RIGHT NOW IN THE CAR (Did Kenny and Jane really get discuss/shout at each other before that? They might have done, but it was never to the level of arriving at Arvo's hideout/after getting the car stolen) etc. I think that car part with jane/kenny and clem in the car is really important to determine if you find Kenny sympathetic or not.
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Sep 1, 2014 21:53
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Darkrenown posted:Is it wrong no matter what someone else has just done? What does violence in this situation accomplish? Again, the whole point of the scene is that Kenny doesn't use violence solely in self-defence anymore, but uses it as an outlet for his own frustration. When he attacks Jane, neither he nor Clem are in immediate danger. If he blames Jane for AJ's death, whether through carelessness or malice, he can walk away. If Jane follows or becomes aggressive, he can defend himself then. He doesn't need to attack her in the scene presented in the game - except to relieve his own anger and despair. monster on a stick posted:She could have gotten him to stand down by just saying "hey the baby is still alive, PSYCH!" If we're going to do logical robots, then Kenny shouldn't have started the fight in the first place until he had acquired more data. monster on a stick posted:If that's the case, then Jane should have loving run during the numerous opportunities to do so. Thank you for agreeing that Jane was wrong. The contention around stand your ground law isn't deciding the exact line on when it is or isn't okay to use lethal force on someone, ya doof.
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Sep 1, 2014 21:54
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Lt. Danger posted:What does violence in this situation accomplish? You're dodging the question though, is violence justified in some cases or not? Because I think most people would conclude it is justified against someone who just killed your child, then it becomes a question of if Kenny had reasonable cause to believe that's what happened or not rather than a blanket "violence is always wrong".
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Sep 1, 2014 22:43
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Darkrenown posted:You're dodging the question though, is violence justified in some cases or not? Because I think most people would conclude it is justified against someone who just killed your child, then it becomes a question of if Kenny had reasonable cause to believe that's what happened or not rather than a blanket "violence is always wrong". It's not justifiable if someone killed your child, because killing that person solves nothing.
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Sep 1, 2014 22:53
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Man what's with you guys? It's the apocalypse, situations where violence is an applicable form of conflict resolution has risen from 0.001% to about 65%. See: Arvo and Friends. Hell it's probably beneficial to take it up a leisure activity just to keep your killing arm strong.
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Sep 1, 2014 22:56
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It'd stop them killing any other children for one thing, such as the 11 year old girl you're traveling with. So what would you do if someone had just killed your child in a situation with no law enforcement? Shrug? Tsk disapprovingly? Ask them politely not to do it again? If you can seriously say you would not react violently you should probably either get into the wine-making business, or return to your manufacturer for an emotions-chip upgrade.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:00
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Glad to hear the Russian prison gang did nothing wrong.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:00
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Lt. Danger posted:Of course it defuses the situation, the problem is that it doesn't work on Kenny because he's psychologically broken. What is wrong with you people? Do you not think that using violence on people is wrong? You are aware that where to draw the line is probably the single biggest running theme in the entire franchise, right? There's no justice, no courts, no civilization any more. The world is now a violent place. Often people that take your view are morally superior to the end. People remember them fondly, even, because they rarely make it a month. People really need to realize that in a post-apocalyptic world, all of society - including it's rules - are pretty much crumbling to dust. So yeah, sometimes violence in that world might end up justified. In the real world there would be a proper, non-violent way to deal with assholes like Arvo. That said there was no reason to justify to-the-death level violence at the end. If Jane hadn't been trying to gut Kenny, the knife wouldn't have been out, and she wouldn't have gotten her rear end stabbed. It should have never started in the first place. Does anyone think Kenny would have punched her to death? He wasn't even likely to win the fist fight and was outmatched from the very start nor likely to continue it once she was down if he had. The knife was brought by Jane. And in my play through, bringing the weapon was her undoing. Lt. Danger posted:Stand your ground is wrong. Again, in the real world.. stand your ground is a very hosed up law for a lot of reasons. In the apocalypse "Stand your ground" should be a motto. Seriously. You are basically giving the same argument as every single character that ends up dead in every post-apocalyptic setting ever. Elsewhere in the franchise, I could just picture you backing Herschel 100% for rounding up zombies in his barn, too. 1stGear posted:Assuming the baby is dead is perfectly reasonable from its absence and Jane's reaction. What Kenny assumes is that Jane deliberately killed because the baby, which is a whole different ball of wax. Which is also why people saying Kenny would have beaten Clementine to death if the child died was ridiculous. He would have never, ever believed Clementine murdered the kid, unlike Jane. Turtlicious posted:It's not justifiable if someone killed your child, because killing that person solves nothing. Except with no jail, it's really the only way to keep them from doing more damage. Why I actually thought it would be terribly irresponsible to let the cannibals in season 1 live. Sure, I wanted pay back but I still might have stopped before killing the guys (including executing one in the barn). But why I killed them, flat out, was I didn't want this to happen to the next unsuspecting group. Plus, they knew where my group lived and if they survived, we'd have to pack up and leave or face inevitable payback from them and the gang working with them. I'd argue that the morally wrong thing would be to let people like that continue to operate and exist. Obviously the situation in Season 2 is WAY less black & white than cannibals, but I do wonder if everyone who decided to take the "high road" even considered that fact. The game neatly has zombies do the job for you if you let them live, but it's pretty contrived. There was no reason for the generator to run out of power, or a sudden horde. It was just to close a lose end and definitely nothing you'd know ahead of time. Plus, that was the closest thing to justice possible. These people not only murdered my friends, but a number of people before we even got there. It couldn't go unanswered yet what answers were there? Darkrenown posted:Is violence also wrong in self-defense? Is it wrong in the defense of others? Is it wrong no matter what someone else has just done? If Jane had indisputably killed AJ, then stood by Kenny mocking him about it, maybe singing a little song about how funny it is his familes keep dying, is it still utterly unjustifiable for Kenny to hit her? If it's still wrong there, how about if she turns towards Clem and announces her intent to kill her next? Still wrong? Lt. Danger is pissed Telltale makes him kill zombies and couldn't had Clem throw herself on Carver to spare his life, probably. Blazing Ownager fucked around with this message at 23:18 on Sep 1, 2014 |
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Sep 1, 2014 23:00
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Heliotic posted:So what happens then? Her big plan to expose Kenny fails and she just leaves? it worked - he did attack her before she drew the knife in defense
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Sep 1, 2014 23:17
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Wow I did not know there was an option to kill both of them. That's nuts.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:17
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Doomsayer posted:[spooiler] Clem is the real monster! A single warning shot would have probably solved everything.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:24
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Lt. Danger posted:If we're going to do logical robots, then Kenny shouldn't have started the fight in the first place until he had acquired more data. The person saying "violence is wrong" and "stand your ground is wrong" in a zombie game is now against logical robots, ok, got it. quote:The contention around stand your ground law isn't deciding the exact line on when it is or isn't okay to use lethal force on someone, ya doof. Actually, it kind of is. Stand your ground is about whether you have the responsibility to flee versus defend yourself against an attack. Jane could very well have fled, it's not clear if Kenny would have followed her, but Jane certainly had the ability to get out of the rest stop and put herself out of the reach of Kenny's ability to attack her. Instead she assaults Kenny by pulling a knife (by the legal definition of assault.)
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Sep 1, 2014 23:26
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Blazing Ownager posted:Does anyone think Kenny would have punched her to death? He wasn't even likely to win the fist fight and was outmatched from the very start nor likely to continue it once she was down if he had. The knife was brought by Jane. And in my play through, bringing the weapon was her undoing. Does someone need to link you the video yet again? He rushes her and tries to push her against the wall while pushing his forearm into her throat. Something tends to happens to humans when you do that and it's not a healthy thing. It's not a fist fight that's lethal force right there. Not that he likely would have held back from punching her to death either.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:30
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Felix_Cat posted:Does someone need to link you the video yet again? He rushes her and tries to push her against the wall while pushing his forearm into her throat. Something tends to happens to humans when you do that and it's not a healthy thing. It's not a fist fight that's lethal force right there. Not that he likely would have held back from punching her to death either. Yeah she might have passed out, pretty much. If you don't do anything for about 5 seconds she kicks him in the balls and then starts punching his bad eye, which realistically is far, far more likely to kill someone with that kind of injury. The problem with those videos is they don't account for your actions, or inaction and we all saw slightly different versions of the same event. Junkfist posted:His other hand was keeping Jane from pulling the knife again. Kenny was just keeping the peace and restraining her after Jane's hysterical display of deadly force. This is almost positively why he went that way in the first place, so good point.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:34
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Felix_Cat posted:Does someone need to link you the video yet again? He rushes her and tries to push her against the wall while pushing his forearm into her throat. Something tends to happens to humans when you do that and it's not a healthy thing. It's not a fist fight that's lethal force right there. Not that he likely would have held back from punching her to death either. His other hand was keeping Jane from pulling the knife again. Kenny was just keeping the peace and restraining her after Jane's hysterical display of deadly force. Pretty admirable and saintly if you think about it!
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Sep 1, 2014 23:35
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On an unrelated note I still think it was dumb they had Clementine shot with a real gun, because the plot immediately following it never accounted for the fact a small child just TOOK A BULLET THROUGH THE ARM. She doesn't slow down, she can travel and she can use both arms to not only fire weapons, but pull grown adults around. They really should have had her get shot with a crossbow or something, or injured in some other way (Arvo braining her from behind with a tire iron or something). Anything other than, again, "shot straight through the shoulder."
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Sep 1, 2014 23:38
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As much as I dislike Jane and don't regret abandoning her rear end after I learned her plan, I'd say her drawing that knife is about the only way she'd have a chance to come out of that fight okay. Kenny is bigger and stronger than her. Drawing the knife was escalation but to be fair it was also evening the odds. Of course that all goes to poo poo when Kenny gets the knife.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:39
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Blazing Ownager posted:On an unrelated note I still think it was dumb they had Clementine shot with a real gun, because the plot immediately following it never accounted for the fact a small child just TOOK A BULLET THROUGH THE ARM. She doesn't slow down, she can travel and she can use both arms to not only fire weapons, but pull grown adults around. It's a little ridiculous that Clem can take bullets from rifles like a champ like ten minutes before Kenny dies to a handgun shot yeah.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:40
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itt people laud a murderous and violent broken psycopath, who desperately latches onto a baby to replace those he's lost, while causing more fractious behaviour, as the healthy choice.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:41
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JawKnee posted:itt people laud a murderous and violent broken psycopath, who desperately latches onto a baby to replace those he's lost, while causing more fractious behaviour, as the healthy choice. Well you know how people who like Jane are.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:42
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Blazing Ownager posted:On an unrelated note I still think it was dumb they had Clementine shot with a real gun, because the plot immediately following it never accounted for the fact a small child just TOOK A BULLET THROUGH THE ARM. She doesn't slow down, she can travel and she can use both arms to not only fire weapons, but pull grown adults around. all those alternatives could and probably would result in a worse wound
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Sep 1, 2014 23:42
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Seagull posted:Well you know how people who like Jane are. "I'm not crazy, you're the crazy one!"
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Sep 1, 2014 23:44
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Blazing Ownager posted:Clem is the real monster! A single warning shot would have probably solved everything. Yeah this is annoying, or even just being able to say "Kenny stop, Jane is pulling something." The weakness in the series is not being able to tell Kenny Jane's plan or being able to fire the gun during the fight sequence.
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Sep 1, 2014 23:50
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