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Saying you're 'in the middle' of most issues almost always means 'gee I agree this is bad but on the other hand let's just wait it out and do nothing', South Park is rightly invoked because it sets things up where instead of laughing at both sides and ending with 'alright but seriously as dumb as these people can be they're probably right' it ends with a smug 'gee so I guess no one is right but me the man who bravely does nothing'.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:11
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That lead somehow to people going up to me and saying "I don't like both presidential candidates. I just don't have a political stance in general", and then getting startled and horrified when I told them that distrust in both candidates was by itself a political stance.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:18
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On the other hand, when you have to choose between two extremes it's best not to choose but because the nature of the internet is such is that if choose one you supposedly embrace everything they stand for when you argue with, what is perceived to be, "the other side". I think of "in the middle" is taking the merits of both arguments, removing the vitriol and believing that is what is important. Maybe that's not the best use of "in the middle" but there you have it. I mean this for big internet discussions/drama, really.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:25
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Jimbot posted:On the other hand, when you have to choose between two extremes it's best not to choose but because the nature of the internet is such is that if choose one you supposedly embrace everything they stand for when you argue with, what is perceived to be, "the other side". I think of "in the middle" is taking the merits of both arguments, removing the vitriol and believing that is what is important. Maybe that's not the best use of "in the middle" but there you have it. I mean this for big internet discussions/drama, really. You can choose a side without choosing the extreme, I hope this helps you in your adult life.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:40
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Then why in the hell do people not just go "I'd rather not address this?" or not saying anything at all? That comes across as more like this Zizek_Ebooks quote than some sort of "levelheaded" argument.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:45
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So i just watched the LP of Metriod; Other M. so from what i saw the game looked like hot garbage. It honestly did everything wrong from storywriting, Charaters, camera work during cinematics. The game feels more like metal gear then metriod. did this game get playtested? Tatum Girlparts posted:You can choose a side without choosing the extreme, I hope this helps you in your adult life. Most people don't act like adults online. everyone just yell gently caress and poo poo at each other. at least here people have a brain when dealing with trolls. Cyron fucked around with this message at 23:57 on Sep 8, 2014 |
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Sep 8, 2014 23:45
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I actually kinda like the rocket heels, simply because they actually do something, as opposed to the heels in Other M. Like, I'd prefer if it was just plain rocket boots, but I do like that they took something terrible for combat and just for aesthetic purposes and made it terrible for combat but functional.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:54
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Cyron posted:So i just watched the LP of Metriod; Other M. so from what i saw the game looked like hot garbage. It honestly did everything wrong from storywriting, Charaters, camera work during cinematics. The game feels more like metal gear then metriod. Hey now, I won't stand for anyone besmirching Metal Gear by comparing it to Other M. That's just not cool. 
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Sep 8, 2014 23:56
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Alacron posted:Hey now, I won't stand for anyone besmirching Metal Gear by comparing it to Other M. That's just not cool. I am talking more about how the game looks and feels more like metal gear and less like a metriod game, as in it seams more on rails then even some of the latter prime games.
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Sep 8, 2014 23:59
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Tatum Girlparts posted:You can choose a side without choosing the extreme, I hope this helps you in your adult life. It's the internet, extremes only exist to the loudest. Being in the middle is the best place to be to get the full picture and one side may no encapsulate everything you believe in. And I tell you brother the middle is the place to be in an internet argument. Still, being patronizing is unbecoming of you. It doesn't add anything to the discussion. Kunster posted:Then why in the hell do people not just go "I'd rather not address this?" or not saying anything at all? That comes across as more like this Zizek_Ebooks quote than some sort of "levelheaded" argument. People like to have a voice to their thoughts or stances. It's good practice to know that you don't have to conform to any one "side" so to speak. People are complex but when "US vs Them" mentality reduces them down to whichever side they choose to be part of it's hard to get how you feel across without being shouted down by the "Others". At least in the middle you can say your piece then get yelled at by everyone. Alacron posted:Hey now, I won't stand for anyone besmirching Metal Gear by comparing it to Other M. That's just not cool. Kojima is pretty bad with women characters. Love the series to death but... yeesh. Not all, mind you, but most. Jimbot fucked around with this message at 00:59 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 00:16
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I'm not much of a gamer but I watched Anita's latest video, thought it was pretty good, well-made and thoughtful. It may be "101" but she's making it for a casual pop culture audience, not feminist academia. It seems a lot more thoughtful and well researched than most internet reviews I've seen (video games or otherwise). I love the myriad of examples that she gives, and it really illustrates that these are pervasive issues, not just limited to a small handful of games. From what she showed, the Kratos scene definitely seemed awfully sexually exploitative and gross to me. Its okay to disagree, if you like the game it still exists and you can still play it. Nobody is trying to ban God of War 3, and I wish people didn't get so defensive over mild critiques of their video games/animes/movies/comics/etc of choice. I also think JO's comment was really ugly, creepy and abusive way to speak to someone, even someone who you disagree with wrt a scene in a video game. I know its the internet and everything, and there is definitely a certain culture, not at all unique to SA, which encourages people to act ever more hateful even (or especially) when it comes to relatively trivial issues. JO's comment was not the first or the last abusive online comment I've read and its sad for me to say that its not even the worst, not by a long shot. But it still feels wrong to me, and its not "kid gloves" to act like a healthy, well-adjusted human being when discussing a particular video game scene. I don't know if that makes me "in the middle" or "lazy" or whatever. I'm sorry if it does and its not my intention to be.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:46
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Regardless of Anita's actual criticism, her biggest accomplishment is moving this discussion into the forefront of the industry. Also, for indirectly exposing how utterly rancid and horrible """""""""gamer culture"""""""" is.
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Sep 9, 2014 00:53
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No doubt, I'm not really a fan of Sarkeesian's videos but I'm 100% supportive of her just because this poo poo needs to be said, and it needs to be said more often.
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Sep 9, 2014 01:23
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Just in quick response to the whole "that was mean," thing. Well, yes it was. It was mean. And it would be a very different story if everyone was ganging up on BB and the thread turned into the kind of "enough's enough" spectator-fest you often see in GBS or E/N. But it wasn't, it was a full page of discussion on a topic going down progressively skeevier and skeevier avenues with more mealy-mouthed "maybe he has a point" parsing of BB's really sexist statements. Someone brought up #GamerGate, and that's exactly what was on my mind when I responded, though for the exact opposite reason that poster was bringing it up. To me, #GamerGate mostly illustrates the internet's amazing ability to foster mealy-mouthed "well maybe they have a point" responses to ghastly, wrongheaded attitudes to the point where they mutate a narrative so far from the truth that truly terrible and abusive people have a platform (4chan gamer bros) over the rational cut-the-poo poo rebuttals (Zoe Quinn and her supporters.) When stuff starts morphing in that direction, it can only stop when someone steps in to "be that guy" and cut the poo poo. The "people in the middle" everyone keeps bringing up are essentially neutral parties that allow the squeakiest wheel (usually the gross one) to roll right over the truth. No one was being that guy yet, so I decided to be that guy. As a result, the thread went from a full page of "ew" to back on track very quickly. There were responses to my response, but the "you see sexism where there is none, a fee-mayul wrote it" thing? Shut down. There's a reason people would rather post and quote snippets from The Daily Show about a political issue than CNN talking points. I can't claim to be funny like John Stewart and his writers, but I can drat well share their appreciation for cutting the bullshit to shed light on the truth of a situation and also just plain lighten it. I know I made one guy laugh? Eh. I understand completely if you disagree with this approach! I get completely thinking that I'm a big meanie. But having been on both sides of the fence at this point...I'd much rather be the big meanie. At least I'm okay being that person if I don't see anyone else stepping up, and in this case, I didn't. I don't believe in bullying either. But laying down the straight poop can be a very healthy thing, and I hope I've explained why I think that's okay. Jay O fucked around with this message at 01:32 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 01:29
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"Gamergate" (I use quotations because it's a dumb name) is an interesting case to me. The abuse, harassment and other vile crap coming out of it is truly trashy. No one should support that kind of views or behavior. But like all movements you get some people joining in because they hear something that echos their sentiment. That small portion of that movement I refer to are the people who think that there's something seriously wrong with the enthusiast press and their relationships with publishers and developers. Individually they can hem and haw and scream until they're blue in the face that there's a problem, but the press just dismisses them, often times calling them conspiracy nuts or somesuch nonsense. So they join up thinking that maybe they can be heard and no longer ignored but instead are overshadowed by the extremists who use real problems as a shield so they can continue their hate and harassment. I found this article to be an insightful look into the whole ordeal. Something from the middle. Edit: Stink gently caress Rob posted:Well you see if you boil it down, the Zoe Quinn controversy is ultimately the age-old argument of Free Speech vs Censorship Jimbot fucked around with this message at 01:59 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 01:52
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Well you see if you boil it down, the Zoe Quinn controversy is ultimately the age-old argument of Free Speech vs Censorship  (This is a thing Yahtzee actually said)
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Sep 9, 2014 01:52
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Jay O posted:Just in quick response to the whole "that was mean," thing. Well, yes it was. It was mean. And it would be a very different story if everyone was ganging up on BB and the thread turned into the kind of "enough's enough" spectator-fest you often see in GBS or E/N. To be fair BB is seen as a joke here and i rather like seeing people talk themselves into the shithole myself (a guy in "games" smash bros thread, talked did this this weekend and it was funny seeing him lower himself to a 7 day ban). Your way is less messy and works well, but i love a mess. but there was "outsiders" defending him so i guess we needed the whole can of raid at the moment. EDIT:the whole drama in the last few weeks have been overbearing. there is a issue with gaming culture, gaming press, and the culture with the devs who make the game big and small. things have to change allaround, and gamergate is not the way, it just poison at this point gaming as a industry is going though growing pains, we are at the point where the kids of the 80's and 90's are grown up now and thinking in way of having good games to play with their kids. We also now getting more of a wider adudence, but some refuse to change let it be Gamers, Devs or the press. we need change in the inderstry for order for gaming to exist, and it need work from not just gamers, and a hashtag isn't going to do crap. that is my stance, i will wait for people to laugh at me. Cyron fucked around with this message at 02:23 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 01:52
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This thread is really depressing. The reactions here seem so knee jerky it seems like nobody is approaching this reasonably. There was a post here that stated that they knew it was sexiest because their gut said so. You know how awful that sounds? That kind of thinking is distressing and dangerous. It leaves no room for discussion, no room for exploration as to why such a situation automatically invokes such a response leading to short sided ideas. It's like reading a forum full of fundies crying they're being oppressed because the ACLU won't let them put the ten commandments in a court house. Bad form, you guys.
Mad Lupine fucked around with this message at 03:48 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 03:03
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Mad Lupine posted:This thread is really depressing. The reactions here seem so knee jerky it seems like nobody is approaching this reasonably. There was a post here that stated that they knew it was sexiest because they're gut said so. You know how awful that sounds? That kind of thinking is distressing and dangerous. It leaves no room for discussion, no room for exploration as to why such a situation automatically invokes such a response leading to short sided ideas. It's like reading a forum full of fundies crying they're being oppressed because the ACLU won't let them put the ten commandments in a court house. Bad form, you guys. I agree. Everyone here in the thread is being very short sided.
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Sep 9, 2014 03:13
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Mad Lupine posted:This thread is really depressing. The reactions here seem so knee jerky it seems like nobody is approaching this reasonably. There was a post here that stated that they knew it was sexiest because they're gut said so. You know how awful that sounds? That kind of thinking is distressing and dangerous. It leaves no room for discussion, no room for exploration as to why such a situation automatically invokes such a response leading to short sided ideas. It's like reading a forum full of fundies crying they're being oppressed because the ACLU won't let them put the ten commandments in a court house. Bad form, you guys. Throwing a toppless woman into a gear to open a door and getting a tasteless named achievement is tasteless if you ignore that she is a woman regardless and is the overall issue with the god of war series after the first game. The First game have some not so good things but it written like a old Greek tragedy. The 2nd game he become a frank miller character and turn into a blood raging lunatic. Cyron fucked around with this message at 03:25 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 03:19
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It would Help, Perhaps, if someone made an argument for it that wasn't hilariously loving dumb. Like, just the worst poo poo ever. Apologies for being Dumb and So Goddamn Crazy. have you considered that brutally murdering innocent women and then mocking them purely for your own amusement.... actually owns??? *Slavoj Zizek scratches his chin thoughtfully* Chexoid fucked around with this message at 03:40 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 03:23
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Mad Lupine posted:It's like reading a forum full of fundies crying they're being oppressed because the ACLU won't let them put the ten commandments in a court house. Bad form, you guys. nah
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Sep 9, 2014 03:48
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Argumentum ad hominem doesn't really win over neutrals following a discussion. If there is something you want to refute then use logic and evidence to rebut the points not attack the person. If your arguments are good you will win over neutrals even if you don't convert your opponent. Dude, that wasn't an ad hominem attack. That's not what that means. She was telling BB that he consistently had lovely, sexist contributions to this thread and that he should reexamine his worldview. That's not an ad hominem, that's a plain and straight up "You suck, bro." Mad Lupine posted:It's like reading a forum full of fundies crying they're being oppressed because the ACLU won't let them put the ten commandments in a court house. Bad form, you guys. You know there's a perfectly good reddit just waiting with open arms. Dozens, in fact. And best part is you don't even have to pay.
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Sep 9, 2014 04:06
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on this but you're a critic so you're supposed to be good with persuasion.
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Pirate Jenny posted:Dude, that wasn't an ad hominem attack. That's not what that means. She was telling BB that he consistently had lovely, sexist contributions to this thread and that he should reexamine his worldview. That's not an ad hominem, that's a plain and straight up "You suck, bro." When you bring up Reddit as a more reasonable alternative to anything, I think there's something very wrong with your definitions of reason. But what was I thinking. This is a thread about internet critics. Maybe we should just move on.
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Sep 9, 2014 04:16
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Yeah, how dare we say the God of War series has blatant sexist elements to it and point out how dumb it is to say it isn't sexist. Nah, for real though, there is shockingly some things I like about God of War even though it is super awful in terms of female characters. I really love the art direction and the scale of everything, from the Titans, gods, and beasts. The cinematic fight scenes are something to applaud and do a good job of making you feel really, really small. Kratos still sucks though.
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Sep 9, 2014 04:19
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Mad Lupine posted:When you bring up Reddit as a more reasonable alternative to anything, I think there's something very wrong with your definitions of reason. But what was I thinking. This is a thread about internet critics. Maybe we should just move on. Allow me to rephrase: if you are discouraged by the quality of discussion that you're encountering on this forum and the type of person that posts here, perhaps you might want to seek out another forum that better reflects your worldview. Better? Edited to actually discuss Internet critics- I keep seeing this word "extremes" being brought up in the last couple of pages. What is the "extreme" alternative to the angry #gamergate people? Is it Anita? Because completely disregarding the accuracy of her criticism (which I think is quite good, but I admit that I'm not familiar with many of the games she's discussing), is she representing an extreme? As has been noted in the thread many times, the brand of feminism she discusses is... pretty basic. It might be "extreme" to young gamers, but in a grand scheme it isn't extreme at all. Pirate Jenny fucked around with this message at 04:31 on Sep 9, 2014 |
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Sep 9, 2014 04:27
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Let's move on at this point: We Hate Movies is one of the funniest movie podcasts going right now and this is a great time to jump in: http://www.whmpodcast.com/ They're doing a best of thing for the past couple months and some of their best stuff is being reuploaded. Battle of Endor, Rocky 4, Tuff Turf and Invisible Child are all amazing episodes. Friday the 13th Part 5 is good too if only for the constant Star Trek diversions.
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Sep 9, 2014 04:43
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OldTennisCourt posted:Let's move on at this point:
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Sep 9, 2014 04:47
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Robert Denby posted:Their episode on "The Butterfly Effect" is pretty fantastic, especially them imagining the screenwriters as stoned teenagers trying to one-up each other on putting 'edgy' and 'dark' content into their script. They also discuss the infamous alternate ending where Ashton Kutcher's character kills himself before he's born by strangling himself with his umbilical cord. "Yo man ~wheeze~ you think we can get Wes Borland to score our movie?" "Yeah bro, my cousin sold him meth one time."
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Sep 9, 2014 04:52
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Here's one of my favorite We Hate Movies moments from one of my favorite episodes (MP3 link) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLHIif2E7IE
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Sep 9, 2014 05:27
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Pirate Jenny posted:Dude, that wasn't an ad hominem attack. That's not what that means. She was telling BB that he consistently had lovely, sexist contributions to this thread and that he should reexamine his worldview. That's not an ad hominem, that's a plain and straight up "You suck, bro." Dude/dudette, an ad hominem argument is where you seek to dismiss another's argument by condemning the speaker as dumb/wrong/sexist/monstrous and thereby (fallaciously) prove the speaker's argument to be wrong/illogical. It circumvents actual contradiction of the argument by attacking the opponent. Which was exactly what Jay O did. If BB's suggestions were sexist then you a) define sexism, b) propose why sexism is wrong, c) seek to prove BB's statement is sexist ergo wrong. Yeah, this is SA, so that's not going to happen but someone opposing BB's statements can at least attempt to criticise the arguments rather just attacking him as a person. Unless it's just a slapfest. In which case  Of course, if Jay O was just out to insult BB then that's another thing entirely. If I've mistaken an insult for an argument then yeah, I'm wrong about applying the term ad hominem (but right in the definition). But I think Jay O has said since that she was frustrated at BB's substance and style rather than him as a person.
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Sep 9, 2014 12:17
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Dude/dudette, an ad hominem argument is where you seek to dismiss another's argument by condemning the speaker as dumb/wrong/sexist/monstrous and thereby (fallaciously) prove the speaker's argument to be wrong/illogical. It circumvents actual contradiction of the argument by attacking the opponent. Which was exactly what Jay O did. If BB's suggestions were sexist then you a) define sexism, b) propose why sexism is wrong, c) seek to prove BB's statement is sexist ergo wrong. Yeah, this is SA, so that's not going to happen but someone opposing BB's statements can at least attempt to criticise the arguments rather just attacking him as a person. Unless it's just a slapfest. In which case But on the other hand, BB was making GBS threads up this thread, and now his shadow looms over us, continuing to poo poo up this thread.
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Sep 9, 2014 13:17
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When did WHM start their tall cold glass of water thing? I don't remember them ever bringing it up and then several episodes ago it started coming up somewhat frequently.
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Sep 9, 2014 14:24
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DoombatINC posted:Here's one of my favorite We Hate Movies moments from one of my favorite episodes (MP3 link) Oh man, this movie came out during a Summer vacation to Sweden. I remember the cardboard uprights of her leering down at me with that manic stare. Wasn't there something about cannibals in the movie? I seem to recall something about that for some reason. Edit: Sure enough: "she is reunited with her father on Christmas Day and he offers her the chance to become a cannibal princess, since he was washed ashore of an uncharted island where he was crowned king."
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Sep 9, 2014 14:25
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Ghostpilot posted:Oh man, this movie came out during a Summer vacation to Sweden. I remember the cardboard uprights of her leering down at me with that manic stare. Finally, my daughter, I've found you. Now how do you feel about eating the flesh of your enemies?
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Sep 9, 2014 15:19
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I'll have nobody talk poo poo about Pippi Longstocking.
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Sep 9, 2014 15:38
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"One day Pippi, they'll listen to horses and you'll get the chair Pippi THE CHAAAAAAAAAIR"
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Sep 9, 2014 18:12
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Josef K. Sourdust posted:Dude/dudette, an ad hominem argument is where you seek to dismiss another's argument by condemning the speaker as dumb/wrong/sexist/monstrous and thereby (fallaciously) prove the speaker's argument to be wrong/illogical. It circumvents actual contradiction of the argument by attacking the opponent. Which was exactly what Jay O did. If BB's suggestions were sexist then you a) define sexism, b) propose why sexism is wrong, c) seek to prove BB's statement is sexist ergo wrong. Yeah, this is SA, so that's not going to happen but someone opposing BB's statements can at least attempt to criticise the arguments rather just attacking him as a person. Unless it's just a slapfest. In which case Glad to know its our responsibility to explain highschool concepts like "define sexism" and "why is sexism wrong" to some idiot defending a rape joke in a bad game. Thats a real reasonable debate and not a way to shut woman up so some idiot can explain how its totally not sexism because men die in wars.
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Sep 9, 2014 18:34
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LoonShia posted:I'll have nobody talk poo poo about Pippi Longstocking. Well it's that or we go back to talking about #Gamergate 
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Sep 9, 2014 19:00
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LoonShia posted:I'll have nobody talk poo poo about Pippi Longstocking. Relax, people are only talking poo poo about the American remake.
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Sep 9, 2014 21:31
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