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Okay, get this: No more gold passives on Elder Lizard, Wiggles, and maybe the Wraith. Keep one on Ancient Golem. Base jungle creep gold is reduced across the board. Enemy jungle creep gold is then increased slightly. Enemy jungler kill gold is increased slightly, since they're already making "Do you have Smite?" a trigger. Now tanky support junglers that can function without a ton of gold have real advantages over Lee Sin/Khazix types. Running a carry jungler would be more of a gamble because they're dependent on snowballing themselves to be effective endgame, but they are rewarded more for being able to disrupt the other jungler and using their early game advantages. Even people in solo queue would learn better map awareness because it would become routine to have to deal with counterjungling, which would create another Dragon/Baron-style teamwide conflict in jungler vs jungler. Is this dumb? Or am I the most brilliant of all?
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Oct 16, 2014 13:16
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Smite-stealing is going to be sooooo much harder if it can target champions as well as monsters. You can actually "miss smite" by smiting the wrong target.
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Oct 16, 2014 13:23
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Tired Moritz posted:I'm thinking of getting Zac because he seems really cool. Any opinions on his place in the game? He's heaps of fun, he's at his best top but not vs things that catch you out and do a lot of damage you can't answer like Riven. In the jungle he's pretty crummy these days. If you just want to have fun, he is that, and his initiation is one of the best in the game.
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Oct 16, 2014 14:18
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Phenotype posted:Okay, get this: Tanky junglers aren't being kept down by carry junglers building a huge gold advantage - their biggest weakness is to strong early game junglers like Lee Sin who can invade and kill them/steal buffs before they've completed any items or even go back to base yet. This seems like it would just increase the incentive to pick an early game counterjungler because you're making the gold advantage for invades better and limiting the other junglers ability to catch up.
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Oct 16, 2014 14:39
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Crazy Larry posted:Tanky junglers aren't being kept down by carry junglers building a huge gold advantage - their biggest weakness is to strong early game junglers like Lee Sin who can invade and kill them/steal buffs before they've completed any items or even go back to base yet. This seems like it would just increase the incentive to pick an early game counterjungler because you're making the gold advantage for invades better and limiting the other junglers ability to catch up. The point would be that there wouldn't be enough gold in the jungle for an AD jungler, so he'd be dependent on counterjungling or getting those kills. And the gold passive would still exist on Golem for tanky junglers. And I feel like, if invades were promoted like that, there would be more of a teamwide effort on both sides to fight early jungle skirmishes.
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Oct 16, 2014 15:43
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Phenotype posted:The point would be that there wouldn't be enough gold in the jungle for an AD jungler, so he'd be dependent on counterjungling or getting those kills. And the gold passive would still exist on Golem for tanky junglers. More likely you'd just get dumb stuff like Lee Sin buying Golem stone because he actually does like to be tanky, because the gold passive would outweigh any benefit he gets from the aggressive items.
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Oct 16, 2014 15:46
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Yeah League of Lee and Shaco is not a good idea. With jungle gold going down the toilet, why would laners sacrifice the good XP and gold in their lane to go help their guaranteed useless jungler maybe not get murdered by champions with ridiculous mobility?
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Oct 16, 2014 15:48
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Phenotype posted:The point would be that there wouldn't be enough gold in the jungle for an AD jungler, so he'd be dependent on counterjungling or getting those kills. And the gold passive would still exist on Golem for tanky junglers. Tanky junglers are held down by the type of junglers who already want to go into your jungle and eat your lunch - increasing the incentive to do so doesn't help them. As for the whole team coordination thing, it's not in solo queue that tanky junglers need help - they're at their weakest in team games and the pro scene, where coordination is at its highest already. The literal best teams in the world are already avoiding junglers like Amumu because there's just not a way for them to coordinate successfully against a Lee Sin invade
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Oct 16, 2014 15:58
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Crazy Larry posted:Tanky junglers are held down by the type of junglers who already want to go into your jungle and eat your lunch - increasing the incentive to do so doesn't help them. As for the whole team coordination thing, it's not in solo queue that tanky junglers need help - they're at their weakest in team games and the pro scene, where coordination is at its highest already. The literal best teams in the world are already avoiding junglers like Amumu because there's just not a way for them to coordinate successfully against a Lee Sin invade It's not just invades, although that's big. You also get your lunch eaten as a low-damage jungler in a 2v2 with a laner + jungler. If Lee counterganks Amumu lvl 3-5, Amumu should never win unless someone really fucks up.
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Oct 16, 2014 16:06
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Tired Moritz posted:I'm thinking of getting Zac because he seems really cool. Any opinions on his place in the game? He's either always in the right places at the right times to get kills with his mediocre damage/cc, or he's completely useless. Slingshot is seriously one of the most broken skills in the game and the rest of his numbers/kit have been made to suck in order to balance him. Early snowballing will compensate for the bad nubmers, but you need to close out the game before it becomes a 45 minute slog-fest where even people who are behind are level 18 with core items.
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Oct 16, 2014 16:18
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Zac desperately needs a new skin. So much potential for him too.
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Oct 16, 2014 16:57
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I just saw a video of a no-ADC bot lane with Karma as APC and Yorick as a Spellthief's Edge support. A sustain lane would probably shut them down, but holy poo poo Karma/Yorick sounds physically painful to play against.
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Oct 16, 2014 17:14
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Some pro teams experimented with Karma playing in the ADC spot instead of a traditional ADC and slamdunking lane with it, to mixed success. It can work if you have a lot of scaling on your team elsewhere because Karma is so lane dominant.
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Oct 16, 2014 17:36
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Disinterested posted:Some pro teams experimented with Karma playing in the ADC spot instead of a traditional ADC and slamdunking lane with it, to mixed success. It can work if you have a lot of scaling on your team elsewhere because Karma is so lane dominant. You'd have to have a significant source of AD damage on your team to make up for the massive amount of magic damage you put out, which can be alleviated by AD assassins I guess, but then you would probably also want a Lichbane AP mage to take turrets like Ziggs.
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Oct 16, 2014 18:31
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How Rude posted:You'd have to have a significant source of AD damage on your team to make up for the massive amount of magic damage you put out, which can be alleviated by AD assassins I guess, but then you would probably also want a Lichbane AP mage to take turrets like Ziggs. Or an AD Jungle/Top with an attackspeed steroid, like Xin Zhao or Master Yi. You can do Yasuo/Zed mid, Xin Zhao/Master Yi jungle, anybody top lane, and then Karma/someone-tanky-with-CC bot lane. EDIT: This actually sounds like a reasonable teamcomp. If they build MR to counter bot lane, then mid and jungle wreck them. If they build armour against those, Karma cleans house. xeose4 fucked around with this message at 18:40 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 18:37
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xeose4 posted:Or an AD Jungle/Top with an attackspeed steroid, like Xin Zhao or Master Yi. You can do Yasuo/Zed mid, Xin Zhao/Master Yi jungle, anybody top lane, and then Karma/someone-tanky-with-CC bot lane. Towers, friend! I wouldn't try this unless the enemy team has lousy waveclear, because you've made a comp that is very dependent on getting Master Yi/Xin Zhao close enough to attack towers. If you can get them to towers they do wreck them very well, however. Xin Zhao was crazy strong in All For One mode for this very reason.
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Oct 16, 2014 18:55
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PlaceholderPigeon posted:Something is going on with TF's profile page- his cards are white and different and its all smoky and stormy. New champion teaser? Ao Shin? Harrowing? Rumor is that this is hype for the Shaco rework. It's all still a little vague to be a certainty but having a new Shaco in time for the Harrowing could be pretty great.
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Oct 16, 2014 18:58
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The Shaco rework rumors seem to be driven by wild stretches about the shrouded champions being linked to the 7 Deadly Sins and that somehow being linked to Shaco. I'd love a Shaco rework but...come on.
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Oct 16, 2014 19:06
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They just gave Shaco a new splash art, so I don't think that's likely. And a kit rework would take several weeks of testing on the PBE.
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Oct 16, 2014 19:06
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kingcobweb posted:Smite-stealing is going to be sooooo much harder if it can target champions as well as monsters. You can actually "miss smite" by smiting the wrong target. I think in some cases you could consider this a hit
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Oct 16, 2014 19:08
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Yeah I'm not sold on it being for the Shaco rework, it's just the most convincing explanation so far. I think an ultimate skin for Shaco would be more likely than a kit rework. I mean there's apparently 6 Shaco skins now and another would make that 7. Even that's super flimsy and conspiracy theory-ish though 
Catgirl Al Capone fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 19:22
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Maybe when the other team picks Lee Sin your jungle should inexplicably grow a bunch of tower plants. Just shooting thorns and throwing coconuts to protect the Amumus of the world.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:06
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a medical mystery posted:Yeah I'm not sold on it being for the Shaco rework, it's just the most convincing explanation so far. There is no way they're making an ultimate skin for that champ without reworking him.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:09
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xeose4 posted:I just saw a video of a no-ADC bot lane with Karma as APC and Yorick as a Spellthief's Edge support. The problem with building a lane-dunking 2v2 is that any good team will just lane swap against you or figure out some way to avoid having to actually play that lane. I'd imagine it's not horrible in pre-challenger ranked 5's though.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:14
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An ultimate shaco skin would be the greatest thing. Riot please grant me this thing that I didn't realize I wanted so bad.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:20
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NTT posted:An ultimate shaco skin would be the greatest thing. Riot please grant me this thing that I didn't realize I wanted so bad. No gently caress you me first
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Oct 16, 2014 20:29
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Whitenoise Poster posted:Maybe when the other team picks Lee Sin your jungle should inexplicably grow a bunch of tower plants. Just shooting thorns and throwing coconuts to protect the Amumus of the world. The problem is that anyone with a greater ability to spike a monster than you is going to be really hard to deal with, especially coupled with the fact that if he lies in wait he lets you take all the risk. Maybe they could do something to make jungle mobs more broadly aggressive? In lane, your ability to just murder the other guy is limited by minion damage and tower damage. In the jungle, the only threat to being in a risky place is the other team. Alternatively (and people would hate this), you could remove Lee Sin/Elise's ability to reposition to monsters? That would allow them to be stronger without giving them perfect safety to buff steal. At least Nunu has to run up to you to unfairly steal your buff.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:55
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theflyingorc posted:The problem is that anyone with a greater ability to spike a monster than you is going to be really hard to deal with, especially coupled with the fact that if he lies in wait he lets you take all the risk. They're throwing out some ideas like giving all of the jungle camps special effects when the jungler takes them, some of which are defensive such as granting extra vision, so that may help some.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:05
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Crazy Larry posted:They're throwing out some ideas like giving all of the jungle camps special effects when the jungler takes them, some of which are defensive such as granting extra vision, so that may help some. The issue is that I don't see how this could do anything about the Lee Sin Red Steal, unless the wraiths do something that gives you a huge advantage over him.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:08
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I would love an ultimate, or even better arcade, skin for Zyra. C'mon, give us some more Zyra skins.  (Actually, I don't know how an ultimate skin would work on Zyra, so maybe just arcade)
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Oct 16, 2014 21:16
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"Lee Sin is at my Red Buff" is something very few champions can actually deal with alone, (Khazix is so popular right now since he's one of the few who CAN.) I think being able to get more vision for free or cheap in your own jungle while you're actively farming it is probably a good answer if it lets you avoid the duelists when you're playing a teamfighty champion who can't fight 1v1. Make it more into a cat and mouse and not just "Well it's 7 mins, time to go kill Amumu at his blue buff."
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Oct 16, 2014 21:21
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theflyingorc posted:Alternatively (and people would hate this), you could remove Lee Sin/Elise's ability to reposition to monsters? That would allow them to be stronger without giving them perfect safety to buff steal. At least Nunu has to run up to you to unfairly steal your buff. That's why you pull buff monsters into the brush; it's not perfect but most jungler invading will throw skillshots at where the buff spawns. Also take the ward trinket and throw it over wall where they're most likely to walk through to get in range of your buff. Just knowing they're coming means you can ping for support or at least get out of there. Fun story: I was playing jungle Sion against a Lee Sin. I decided to start blue, they invaded our red and killed our support, not good. So I saved my smite, got blue, went to his red and stole it just as he got there and had to flash over baron. For some reason he kept trying to gank mid so I thought gently caress it, I'll grab his blue. As I got there I noticed he was going for it so I waited in the brush, saw him Q over onto blue, I charged up my Q (AoE damage + 2s stun at full) and proceeded to kick the poo poo out of him. Felt really good. We'll see what happens with all these pre-season jungle changes and how the alternate abilities on smite will affect early invades and resisting them.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:21
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anti-magic posted:That's why you pull buff monsters into the brush; it's not perfect but most jungler invading will throw skillshots at where the buff spawns. That's how I win 1v1s against Lee Sins etc. as Jungle Poppy. You sneak into their jungle and wait for them to move unaware you are there and then you wombo them to death after they wasted one or two cooldowns moving/attacking jungle monsters.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:23
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anti-magic posted:That's why you pull buff monsters into the brush; it's not perfect but most jungler invading will throw skillshots at where the buff spawns. Also take the ward trinket and throw it over wall where they're most likely to walk through to get in range of your buff. Just knowing they're coming means you can ping for support or at least get out of there. Another way to win is through prediction. If you know the enemy jungler's gonna invade, you can just saunter up to his red and grab it. Early game laners can't risk contesting you as they can cede an exp advantage doing so. If you find Lee there he's significantly less threatening than when he gets the drop on you and you can often bully him out.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:30
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OtherworldlyInvader posted:I want this to be the next Ziggs skin. Professor Genki Ziggs needs to happen before anything else.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:32
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theflyingorc posted:The issue is that I don't see how this could do anything about the Lee Sin Red Steal, unless the wraiths do something that gives you a huge advantage over him. The most interesting change to the jungle so far imo is the timing of the spawns. I have no idea whether it favours invaders yet or not, there seem to be a few different approaches for getting buffs and a lot of champions seem to need to recall before getting one or both. There are going to be a lot of options for stealing and protecting the early jungle depending on your planned route.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:44
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God I fucking love Diablo 3 gold, it even paid for this shitty title
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Tired Moritz posted:I'm thinking of getting Zac because he seems really cool. Any opinions on his place in the game? If you want to get him because you've played him and had fun doing so, sure. Trying to actually make him work anywhere is an exercise in frustration, though. His ganks, while surprising, aren't really that good in terms of actual CC or damage. His top lane got nerfed horribly from when he was the immovable q-spamming blob of eternal health, and there's a ton of champions that will not only make him miserable in lane but also outperform him later in the game. There's a lot of neat ideas, but the concept of him being a "good initiator" came from an era when non-standard gank paths were at a premium, and even in that era, flinging yourself a mile ahead of your team came with all sorts of teamwork problems that didn't exist for more standard champions. That said, he's still fun to play when you can make him work, and there's plenty of dumb builds you can do in arams or 5s with buds or whatever. Try him out first though, He's really not worth it if you don't really like him because he's pretty bad right now.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:57
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misguided rage posted:The most interesting change to the jungle so far imo is the timing of the spawns. I have no idea whether it favours invaders yet or not, there seem to be a few different approaches for getting buffs and a lot of champions seem to need to recall before getting one or both. There are going to be a lot of options for stealing and protecting the early jungle depending on your planned route.
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Oct 16, 2014 22:37
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mistaya posted:"Lee Sin is at my Red Buff" is something very few champions can actually deal with alone, (Khazix is so popular right now since he's one of the few who CAN.) In truth there's a bunch that can, but a lot of it is conditional. Did I dodge the Q? Can I position the red into hitting him instead of me? Stuff like that. Udyr handles him well, as does Skarner, Shyvanna, probably Darius, Kha, Xin, Pantheon, but you kinda get the theme. However, your tanky or somewhat squishy early tanky guys like Hecarim, Nautilus, Amumu, Sejuani and Zac are all missing from the above because their option is basically to flail around and die horribly. Or hope to God your lanes have a pulse and will respond to you flailing around dying. One thing as a JUNGLE MAIN I'd really really beg of players below me in Bronze/Silver/Gold/Plat don't get loving disheartened because some stupid prick like Lee stole your red. Hit 3 from golems and wraiths/wolves and go gank anyway. If it works, you'll be ahead. If it doesn't, you've applied a lot of pressure to a lane. Oh and to echo what Baby said Zac is absolute trashcan shoes right now. His numbers deserved to get kicked in the groin on release but now he just kinda initiates and that's about the size of it. Servaetes fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 22:38
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Servaetes posted:In truth there's a bunch that can, but a lot of it is conditional. Did I dodge the Q? Can I position the red into hitting him instead of me? Stuff like that. Udyr handles him well, as does Skarner, Shyvanna, probably Darius, Kha, Xin, Pantheon, but you kinda get the theme. However, your tanky or somewhat squishy early tanky guys like Hecarim, Nautilus, Amumu, Sejuani and Zac are all missing from the above because their option is basically to flail around and die horribly. Or hope to God your lanes have a pulse and will respond to you flailing around dying. Can you help me be a better jungler? Some tips. I'm gold 4 and got here on Vi amumu xin and rammus's backs
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