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Wait, Jim Ross had Oklahoma on his podcast? I never thought that would go down. I thought JR hated him.
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Oct 16, 2014 05:09
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LordPants posted:There was some talk that Cornette was booking the undercard feuds, which makes sense when you have ridiculous bullshit on top, and really traditional feuds and finishes on the bottom. Charles Gnarwin posted:On JR's podcast, Ed Ferrara said that 80% of every writing meeting was devoted solely to the main event and then they would just fill on the undercard with what time they had left to plan. It's amazing that the era is fondly remembered for every character having a story from the top of the card to the bottom when so little time was devoted to the undercard.
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Oct 16, 2014 13:39
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Perfidus posted:Wait, Jim Ross had Oklahoma on his podcast? I never thought that would go down. I thought JR hated him.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:33
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Charles Gnarwin posted:On JR's podcast, Ed Ferrara said that 80% of every writing meeting was devoted solely to the main event and then they would just fill on the undercard with what time they had left to plan. It's amazing that the era is fondly remembered for every character having a story from the top of the card to the bottom when so little time was devoted to the undercard. The only people who remember that fondly are people who buy into Vince Russo's bullshit. Every wrestler having a story leads to the worst of crash TV.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:36
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MassRafTer posted:The only people who remember that fondly are people who buy into Vince Russo's bullshit. Every wrestler having a story leads to the worst of crash TV. I dunno, the WWE after Russo left and before Stephanie took over were some of the best times in wrestling. You just need the proper structure and planning (like any other loving TV show) to do it which is something both Vince's can't do.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:38
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Gonzo McFee posted:I dunno, the WWE after Russo left and before Stephanie took over were some of the best times in wrestling. You just need the proper structure and planning (like any other loving TV show) to do it which is something both Vince's can't do. WWE in 2000 didn't give everyone a story like Vince Russo would. It was a planned structured show, but they didn't try to cram every bit of the roster into every show and give them a story.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:43
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Endorph posted:Wasn't the story that JR didn't hate the dude who played Oklahoma since he was just doing his job, and rather he hated the guys who wrote the Oklahoma character? Or have I got it confused with some other really meanspirited parody wrestler? You're thinking of "Dr. Death" Steve Williams, the guy Oklahoma managed, and a very good friend of JR's.
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Oct 16, 2014 20:53
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I think Cornette was far angrier about it than Ross was.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:09
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El Gallinero Gros posted:I think Cornette was far angrier about it than Ross was. Cornette is far angrier about lots of things. Also Ed Ferrara is a liar and a scumbag.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:24
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coconono posted:Cornette is far angrier about lots of things. That makes him a saint in professional wrestling, relatively speaking.
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Oct 16, 2014 21:52
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MassRafTer posted:WWE in 2000 didn't give everyone a story like Vince Russo would. It was a planned structured show, but they didn't try to cram every bit of the roster into every show and give them a story. But when a character showed up, they had a reason. Russo overbooked the poo poo out of things, but it was better than the endless rematches with no development that plagues modern WWE. I think we can all agree that the Kreski era was the best time ever because he took the concept of people having motivations and stories and actually had it make sense. God bless that nerd and his flow charts. WCW edit: I'm still working my way through the Nitros I never watched as a child and I just got to Loch Ness. Who the gently caress thought Giant Haystacks was needed on TV? Charles Gnarwin fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 16, 2014 |
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Oct 16, 2014 23:01
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Charles Gnarwin posted:But when a character showed up, they had a reason. Russo overbooked the poo poo out of things, but it was better than the endless rematches with no development that plagues modern WWE. Nerd nothing, it was standard TV stuff in every other TV Show. Keeping note of a character's alliances, motivations and history by writing it down is just how TV shows are made. Can't have that in the WWE though because stuff like that makes it harder for Vince to tear the whole show up and start again.
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Oct 16, 2014 23:10
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MassRafTer posted:WWE in 2000 didn't give everyone a story like Vince Russo would. It was a planned structured show, but they didn't try to cram every bit of the roster into every show and give them a story. There's a difference between giving everyone a story and giving everyone insane amounts of stupid character development. "Mysterious dude in a mask who hates wrestler B for unknown reason" is a great story that takes a minute to tell and can be interesting. What Russo did wrong was thinking we needed to know about how the masked man used to be a famous male model who the other wrestler secretly mutilated in a trailer park fire after having an affair with his mom and shooting his dog.
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Oct 17, 2014 01:48
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El Estrago Bonito posted:There's a difference between giving everyone a story and giving everyone insane amounts of stupid character development. "Mysterious dude in a mask who hates wrestler B for unknown reason" is a great story that takes a minute to tell and can be interesting. What Russo did wrong was thinking we needed to know about how the masked man used to be a famous male model who the other wrestler secretly mutilated in a trailer park fire after having an affair with his mom and shooting his dog. To be fair, a lot of that stuff would eventually come later on. I guess it's the WWE effect but when he was in charge of the writing there it was largely just pretty simple stories for the undercard. He was a fan of giving everyone something to do, which should be one of the good things that WWE took from his tenure. It's also essentially what NXT do at the moment, but that's because thankfully they don't have a whole lot of time per episode. The format lends itself to leaner storytelling. Anyway, the I'm up to post BatB 96 with the Nitro episodes. I've already talked about how dead that Florida crowd is, but man the booking is also all over the place. Unless all the story is being shifted over to WCW Saturday Night I have no idea why anyone is fighting. Arn Anderson was suddenly getting a title shot (Well deserved too), Alex Wright is suddenly in a very homoerotic 4 man tag team, Konnan is inexplicably fighting VK Wallstreet after losing his belt to Flair (With no buildup). gently caress these things are a mess. Positives: The cruiserweight stuff is getting into full swing and it's awesome. Malenko and Rey are saving shows at the moment. Hogan plays the heel so well, it's like years of this poo poo has been building up and he's letting loose. Though amusingly, his only response to Gene's 'What about the children?' question is some vague thing about warning them and they didn't tow the line so it's their fault. I actually think he's trying to blame kids not saying their prayers and eating their vitamins for his turn. The most hilarious moment comes when The Outsiders attack, and throw Rey around like a dart. Rey INSISTS that there was four guys, despite the whole thing being televised. Amusingly he first says three, and then corrects himself. By the end of the night I expected the figure to double. Alex Wright helpfully rides to the hospital with him. Though seeing as he's just wearing bright orange underwear and a leather jacket, I don't know how he's going to make it home.
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Oct 17, 2014 15:42
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MassRafTer posted:WWE in 2000 didn't give everyone a story like Vince Russo would. It was a planned structured show, but they didn't try to cram every bit of the roster into every show and give them a story. DrVenkman posted:To be fair, a lot of that stuff would eventually come later on. I guess it's the WWE effect but when he was in charge of the writing there it was largely just pretty simple stories for the undercard. He was a fan of giving everyone something to do, which should be one of the good things that WWE took from his tenure. It's also essentially what NXT do at the moment, but that's because thankfully they don't have a whole lot of time per episode. The format lends itself to leaner storytelling. Yeah, I think 'cramming everyone into every show' is the problem, regardless of how it's done. You can create small, simple stories that simmer for weeks or months at a time, culminating in an eventual blow-off, without it becoming an overbooked Russo mess. With the huge number of hours' worth of TV WWE has to fill these days, why shouldn't they have feuds which build slowly? Stick some guys together, give them some direction and then don't put them on every single show. A Raw promo here, a Smackdown match there, with the occasional Main Event segment over the course of a couple of months would keep the angle in peoples' minds and could help alleviate the problem of dartboard-booked PPV matches with zero build.
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Oct 17, 2014 16:04
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Zybysko versus Eric "Eazy E" Bischoff at Starcade '97 is an abomination.
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Oct 18, 2014 01:18
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So something just crossed my mind, was the 'fan' run-in during the Hogan/Piper match at Halloween Havoc 97 a work or not? The commentary during the match kind of puts it over with a real fake "look at the NWO beating up a fan" feel, but security seems to have a very weird time actually dragging the guy out of the ring and the camera-work gets really janky and cuts out seemingly too soon for some reason. This was probably answered in chat when we watched Halloween Havoc some months ago, but I wasn't there for that one.
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Oct 18, 2014 08:13
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Doomsday Jesus posted:Zybysko versus Eric "Eazy E" Bischoff at Starcade '97 is an abomination. gently caress whoever gave Hulk Hogan creative freedom.
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Oct 18, 2014 08:28
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RZApublican posted:So something just crossed my mind, was the 'fan' run-in during the Hogan/Piper match at Halloween Havoc 97 a work or not? The commentary during the match kind of puts it over with a real fake "look at the NWO beating up a fan" feel, but security seems to have a very weird time actually dragging the guy out of the ring and the camera-work gets really janky and cuts out seemingly too soon for some reason. I think accounts say they worked themselves into a shoot. The commentators and security are so used to overbooked Fake Sting bullshit they're not sure if a Fake Sting entering the cage is scripted or not, especially when there are already Fake Stings everywhere. When he gets in you can see the real Fake Sting who's supposed to be out go and hold him down in the corner. That's when they catch on that its a fake Fake Sting and go and kick his rear end/carry him away. Marks.
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Oct 18, 2014 09:15
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Flameingblack posted:WCW very briefly recovered, probably only due to Bill Goldberg's success, as well as the mid-card getting much better. But god drat I have never seen a company blow such an important moment before. Sting couldn't win clean, and then he was stripped of the title a few days later, acting completely out of character by attacking a referee? They didn't "very briefly recover" they continued on an incredible business streak that led to a record number of sell outs that winter, making more money than any company in the history of wrestling (to that point) in 1998 and doing several hugely successful stadium shows at the end of 98 and ending on 1/4/99. Starrcade 97 barely mattered thanks to Goldberg. Starrcade 97 was a huge blunder, but not one that hurt the company long term like loving up Goldberg, or hurt me long term by making me rewatch Larry vs Easy E on the first Thunder.
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Oct 18, 2014 09:46
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Flameingblack posted:WCW very briefly recovered, probably only due to Bill Goldberg's success, as well as the mid-card getting much better. But god drat I have never seen a company blow such an important moment before. Sting couldn't win clean, and then he was stripped of the title a few days later, acting completely out of character by attacking a referee? They vacated the title because of another gently caress finish to the Hogan/Sting rematch the next night on Nitro. Which happened of course, just as the overrun would hit and they couldn't continue. And then they couldn't show it on the next Nitro, because it was held up for "legal" reasons and that it would be available this Thursday night on the world premiere of WCW Thunder.
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Oct 18, 2014 12:31
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Why the hell wasn't the post-Fingerpoke of Doom storyline anything but Goldberg murders everyone and gets back his title? I know he hosed up his hand with the limo thing, but I have Spring Stampede '99 on tape and am always baffled that they didn't run with the guy who proved to be worth that much goddamn money in '98. Starcade '97 wasn't the "end" of WCW but it foreshadowed and facilitated everything wrong with them on everything involving their main even scene and beyond. Starcade '97 is their Sega CD. '99 and 2000 are the 32X and the Sega Saturn. Greed is the Dreamcast I guess. Sonic '06 is TNA Big Coffin Hunter fucked around with this message at 12:38 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 12:32
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Big Coffin Hunter posted:Why the hell wasn't the post-Fingerpoke of Doom storyline anything but Goldberg murders everyone and gets back his title? I know he hosed up his hand with the limo thing, but I have Spring Stampede '99 on tape and am always baffled that they didn't run with the guy who proved to be worth that much goddamn money in '98. Starcade '97 wasn't the "end" of WCW but it foreshadowed and facilitated everything wrong with them on everything involving their main even scene and beyond. He didn't gently caress up his hand until December of '99, almost a year later.
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Oct 18, 2014 12:57
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 Holy poo poo, I thought that happened in spring or at least early summer. It's even worse than I thought.
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Oct 18, 2014 12:59
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Big Coffin Hunter posted:
The only reason Goldberg started getting pushed again was because of Russo. I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I thought the "Goldberg must repeat his legendary 173-0 streak" storyline was actually a great idea and could've built him back up as an absolute monster. Have him jerking the curtain with jobbers, his matches getting interrupted with commercial breaks, etc. In order to show how much Russo is loving with him. After a few dozen wins, it becomes obvious he really could pull it off again, so they start stacking the deck against him. Interferences, handicap matches. Hell, Russo could even throw all the goofy gimmick matches he wants into it to prove how desperate he is to keep Goldberg from getting to the magic number. It really could have been something.
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Oct 18, 2014 13:06
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Big Coffin Hunter posted:
Goldberg took a few months off after Slamboree in the summer for a movie. He had murdered Hall and Nash, but the title picture was a goddamn mess in '99 and it ended up being DDP beating everyone up.
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Oct 18, 2014 13:26
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Big Coffin Hunter posted:
you may think this because on his legends of wrestling round table Kevin Nash cites Goldberg loving up his arm as a reason they had to do the fingerpoke of doom
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Oct 18, 2014 14:47
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oatgan posted:you may think this because on his legends of wrestling round table Kevin Nash cites Goldberg loving up his arm as a reason they had to do the fingerpoke of doom I'd have to double check, but I think Nash claimed it was a way to reform the nWo so that Goldberg could pick them off and that it got blown up because
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Oct 18, 2014 14:50
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ayn rand hand job posted:Goldberg took a few months off after Slamboree in the summer for a movie. He had murdered Hall and Nash, but the title picture was a goddamn mess in '99 and it ended up being DDP beating everyone up. Souled Out: Hogan doesn't defend the title, Goldberg gets revenge on Scott Hall in a taser/ladder match Superbrawl: Hogan feuds with Flair, Nash/Hall unmask Rey Mysterio, Goldberg is in a feud with Bam Bam Bigelow for some reason Uncensored: Hogan drops the belt (and "control of WCW") to Flair, Nash beats Rey again, Goldberg is off filming Universal Soldier(?) Spring Stampede: DDP beats Flair for the belt, Goldberg gets revenge on Kevin Nash, Hogan is taken out in an injury angle Slamboree: Nash beats DDP for the belt, Piper beats Flair for "control of WCW", Goldberg wrestles Sting for some reason but the Steiners and Bret Hart interfere and I guess the NWO is gone? Great American Bash: No Goldberg, Hogan, or Hall. Nash continues to book himself as champion Bash at the Beach: See Great American Bash Road Wild: Goldberg returns to feud with Rick Steiner! Hogan returns (as a face) to retire Kevin Nash Fall Brawl: Goldberg is now feuding with DDP, Sting turns heel to take the belt off of Hogan Halloween Havoc: Hogan lays down in a worked shoot in his title rematch, Goldberg wins the belt in an impromptu match against Sting but title is vacated the next night Mayhem: Goldberg is feuding with Sid Vicious now, Bret Hart defeats Chris Benoit in a WCW title tournament, Hall came back Starrcade: Hart beats Goldberg for the title but it's vacated the next night, Nash comes back as a face, the next night NWO2000 forms with Hart/Nash/Hall/Jarrett feuding with Goldberg And then in the run-up to Souled Out 2000 it is revealed Goldberg concussed the hell out of Bret Hart so he had to re-vacate the title, Goldberg hosed up his arm, Scott Hall disappeared again, and Jeff Jarrett got a concussion too and had to vacate his US title. All of this led to the main event putting the world title on Chris Benoit, who left the company the following morning. Most remarkably, only a small portion of this was booked by Russo. But that's how Goldberg got his revenge on the NWO for the fingerpoke of doom.
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Oct 18, 2014 15:09
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Goldberg didn't film Universal Soldier until after Slamboree. He was feuding with Bigelow after Bigelow attacked him in the aftermatch of that 5 star classic ME of Souled Out '99, the Taser Ladder match. No, the ladder wasn't actually a taser.  The Steiners and Hart were heels at the time of Slamboree. Hall was out until November after he was involved in a car accident and broke his foot. OJ MIST 2 THE DICK fucked around with this message at 15:21 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 15:17
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Goldberg was actually feuding with Bam Bam all the way back before Starcade, in part so Nash didn't have to work too many matches as a heel during the build, in part because it was always planned to bleed Goldberg back off into the mid card after Starcade.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:44
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Edge & Christian posted:I guess the NWO is gone? There was no blowoff. They just gradually phased out the angle. One time during Nash's babyface title reign, I swear Schiavone said "maybe we were wrong about the NWO."
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Oct 18, 2014 16:49
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That's something Death of WCW didn't go into enough detail for me on (unless the new edition adds anything.) The whole thing with the WolfPac (sic?) and all the infighting was really confusing at the time, and of course it meant that nobody in WCW really beat the nWo, they did it to themselves.
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Oct 18, 2014 16:58
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The start of 99 was just the perfect storm of politics undoing everything they had built up. The cracks were there already but to have so many power plays in such a short period of time killed all the momentum. Even down to Flair pushing to turn heel, not realising that he had reached the point where the WCW fanbase didn't want to boo him.
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Oct 18, 2014 17:20
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I was at the Souled Out Ladder match between Goldberg/Hall. They never showed us any video packages so when Scott Hall said "Goldberg slipped on his piss in the back" we had no idea why he was actually limping. Trons were also just slow pans of the wrestler, probably shot earlier that day.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:05
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Maxwell Lord posted:That's something Death of WCW didn't go into enough detail for me on (unless the new edition adds anything.) The whole thing with the WolfPac (sic?) and all the infighting was really confusing at the time, and of course it meant that nobody in WCW really beat the nWo, they did it to themselves. Savage had a title match against Sting and botched NWO interference cost him the match. So when Hogan had a title match against Sting, Savage came down as part of the NWO scrum and hit Hogan, costing him the match. When Nash expressed sympathy for Hogan (after Hogan and Bischoff poo poo-talked not only Savage, but Hall and Syxx who were kayfabe/really fired respectively) Hogan responded by beating Nash down with a baseball match after they tagged against Piper and the Giant. So in retaliation for that, Nash came down and powerbombed Sting during Savage's next title shot, allowing Savage to win the title. Of course this is immediately where it starts to get dumb. Now the big inciting incident of the split is the next night where Hogan insists he get a shot at the title. This is two months after Hogan/Savage already main evented a PPV with a cage match, but whatever. JJ Dillon insists this match will have NO RUN-INS. It has four of them, culminating in Bret Hart attacking Kevin Nash as he tried to drag an unconscious Savage on top of Hogan. Hart then put an unconscious Hogan on top of Savage. And then yeah, it just sort of dragged on for that summer with no clear direction, Hogan was still ostensibly the top heel but he spent the summer feuding with Karl Malone and Jay Leno, then got his win back over Ultimate Warrior, then 'retired'. Then came back for the Fingerpoke of Doom which reunited the two feuding factions, minus all the people who were injured or who had wandered off. Then that version of the NWO lasted all of 3-4 months, then the NWO 2000 formed at the end of 1999. So yeah, no NWO faction ever (including WWE's) ever had a satisfactory blow-off. The Hollywood/Wolfpac split itself was booked somewhat competently, though.
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Oct 18, 2014 18:21
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The '99 build really got hosed over by injuries. Hogan tore his kneecap at Spring Stampede and was out all summer. Luger tore his biceps after and was on the shelf between February and September. Hall had a car run over his foot after Superbrawl and was gone until November. After that the only really serious top-card members were Kevin Nash and Scott Steiner.
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Oct 18, 2014 19:54
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The Nitro/PPV rewatch continues. It's Hog Wild 96. First off, why the change from Hog Wild to Road Wild? Do you love the sound of helicopters? Then this is the PPV for you. The chopper overhead is almost constant. Tony insists there's 250,000 people there, but he's lied to me before. Once again the Cruiserweights save the show. Rey and Ultimo have a really good match, as do Malenko and Benoit. Once again though I'm not sure why anyone is wrestling anyone. Other than they just are. Flair cuts a package on The Outsiders, but is wrestling Eddie. I was looking for other information about this show but it's the first mention I heard that Heenan was wasted during most of his run. How true was that? Mark Madden in his book claims that Heenan was a drunk and protected by people like Meltzer because they liked him. Russo did a shoot where he claims he was told to can Heenan because he was drinking too much, but he says personally he never noticed. Though it seems that when Russo was sent home Heenan is shortly after. If viewed with that in mind it explains a few things. Man, gently caress what people say, Miss Elizabeth was gorgeous in this era. She's still one of the most awkward people I've ever seen in front of the camera, but gorgeous nonetheless. EDIT: I think the Steiners/Harlem Heat match can be best described as 'Racially charged'. DrVenkman fucked around with this message at 23:04 on Oct 18, 2014 |
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Oct 18, 2014 22:41
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DrVenkman posted:The Nitro/PPV rewatch continues. It's Hog Wild 96. First off, why the change from Hog Wild to Road Wild?
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Oct 18, 2014 22:51
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DrVenkman posted:The Nitro/PPV rewatch continues. It's Hog Wild 96. First off, why the change from Hog Wild to Road Wild? You're not going to get much in angles beyond "people want belts".
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Oct 18, 2014 23:07
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