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Wade Wilson posted:I mean, how else did he end up with werewolf Andi? The Butters that was first introduced certainly wouldn't have been able to start a relationship with her. Weren't all the werewolves huge nerds for the first couple books? That kind of thing doesn't entirely disappear from someone's personality. I'm sure they have some things in common.
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Oct 23, 2014 20:22
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You have to be a seriously cynical motherfucker to dislike Butters. Though I wish they'd went with the whole 'Blind painter' thing, rather than the Knight thing.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:06
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TenaciousJ posted:Weren't all the werewolves huge nerds for the first couple books? That kind of thing doesn't entirely disappear from someone's personality. I'm sure they have some things in common. The werewolves were Harry's D&D group for a while, there were definitely some common interests there.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:22
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I just hope to god that the next book touches on the reactions of the White Council to all the recent developments in Harry's life. Since he last saw them he's taken Demonreach, died and come back, become winter knight, decimated the Red Court, took over the Wild Hunt, kicked more outsider rear end, been involved in the deaths of two more Fae Ladies (for something that's supposed to be immortal, Harry sure has seen a lot of Fae Ladies die), had his apprentice/warlock become the Winter Lady, kicked Nicky's rear end, robbed Hades, and been in yearly contact with powers like Odin and Uriel. And that's just the poo poo I remember. Merlin is gonna freak out.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:34
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Kris xK posted:Merlin is gonna freak out. And, in the background, Ebenezer will wink and give Harry a thumbs-up. You're right, though, we feel overdue for a White Council book.
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Oct 23, 2014 21:47
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Butters is absolutely awful. I don't know if I'd call him a Mary Sue, but he's always at the heart of some of the most annoying parts of the book. First he sparks the most egregious "scientists are just close minded sheeple who refuse to see what's really happening" middle school douche philosophy rants from Dresden. Then he's the center of characters being angry at Dresden because Dresden wasn't around to continue tirelessly fighting evil. (Because he sacrificed his life to utterly destroy a pretty bad evil.) Then in Skin Game, he spends the entire book being a faithless, sullen asshat. This behavior puts his friends, innocent children, and an angel in serious danger. For this shittiness, he gets the sword of faith. What?
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Oct 24, 2014 00:45
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Wittgen posted:(Because he sacrificed his life to utterly destroy a pretty bad evil.) Himself?
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Oct 24, 2014 01:02
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Khizan posted:Himself? The red king.
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Oct 24, 2014 02:46
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Azuth0667 posted:The red king. No. He took up the mantle of Winter Knight to rescue his daughter. In typical Dresden fashion, he somehow managed to wipe out the Red Court in the process. Prior to that, though, he arranged to have himself killed in an effort to prevent himself from becoming a monster because he assumed that was inevitable. Khizan is right, the monster Harry sacrificed himself to stop was himself.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:02
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Yeah, Harry didn't sacrifice himself to kill anyone. He sacrificed Susan and then had himself killed to avoid having to deal with the consequences of his choices, which is what the last two or three books has been about and he's only now starting to come around to the idea that maybe he can't just shrug and go 'welp, nothing I can do!' ' It's really easy to get into the viewpoint of 'what Harry is doing looks justified to the reader with knowledge of his actions' and ignore that since Harry spends a lot of time being closed-off, abandoned, selfish or otherwise distant that it is really not easy for other characters to see that element of him. Especially because Harry is pretty far from infallible. Skin Games pretty much laid out exactly why people didn't trust Harry and a lot of it is justified because when something goes wrong Harry's default response tends to be "better close myself off!" ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Oct 24, 2014 |
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Oct 24, 2014 04:14
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Ornamented Death posted:No. He took up the mantle of Winter Knight to rescue his daughter. In typical Dresden fashion, he somehow managed to wipe out the Red Court in the process. Signing on with Mab was sacrificing himself for his daughter and he had to go through the red king to do that hence the great evil. That isn't including him literally attempting to kill himself to avoid the consequences for his actions either.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:23
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Azuth0667 posted:Signing on with Mab was sacrificing himself for his daughter and he had to go through the red king to do that hence the great evil. That isn't including him literally attempting to kill himself to avoid the consequences for his actions either. That's a fine interpretation of events (though flawed, in my opinion), but it doesn't fit with what Wittgen said, which is what started this avenue of discussion.
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Oct 24, 2014 04:28
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That feels a little nitpicky to me. When he decided to take up the winter mantle, he was sacrificing himself. He set up a hit on himself later to limit his sacrifice to just his life, sure. It was probably a bad decision. He was, after all, manipulated by satan into making it. But I think it's pretty pedantic to argue that he wasn't sacrificing himself to fight the red court.
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Oct 24, 2014 09:18
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Khizan posted:The werewolves were Harry's D&D group for a while, there were definitely some common interests there. And butters was introduced to the group as their new dungeon master. I forget which book. The word "Nerd boner" was used.
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Oct 24, 2014 17:00
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Rhymenoserous posted:And butters was introduced to the group as their new dungeon master. I forget which book. The word "Nerd boner" was used. Not long after their previous DM was killed. (Also Andi's previous boyfriend make if that what you may) Rumda fucked around with this message at 19:52 on Oct 24, 2014 |
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Oct 24, 2014 17:44
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It was the end of Turn Coat
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Oct 24, 2014 18:13
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Rhymenoserous posted:And butters was introduced to the group as their new dungeon master. I forget which book. The word "Nerd boner" was used. "His nerd penis is longer and harder than all of ours put together" was the exact phrasing, if I recall.
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Oct 24, 2014 21:51
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Wade Wilson posted:I mean, how else did he end up with werewolf Andi? The Butters that was first introduced certainly wouldn't have been able to start a relationship with her. Andi is written as being physically attractive, but she isn't exactly normal people. Like the rest of the Alphas she was a social outcast and probably has issues(tm). Also, reminder that the short story Day Off paints her as being a literal furry. Rumda posted:Not long after their previous DM was killed. (Also Andi's previous boyfriend make if that what you may) Whatever, it's not like there are many (any?) romantic relationships in this series that aren't kinda hosed up or dysfunctional. Mars4523 posted:He is pretty terrible. I heard someone describe him as the "DM's little brother" in terms of what he's allowed to get away with. Thought it was pretty apt. Wade Wilson posted:"His nerd penis is longer and harder than all of ours put together" was the exact phrasing, if I recall. Butters was okay in Dead Beat because he had an actual arc, since then he's ridden the line somewhere between Mary Sue and the annoying hyper-competent kid in every sci-fi story. His character in Skin game was definitely a nadir, but I guess we're gonna have to put up with him a lot more now, so yay. Skippy McPants fucked around with this message at 01:54 on Oct 25, 2014 |
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Oct 25, 2014 01:50
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Question: Since when has receiving a big power-spike in Dresden Files EVER had a positive effect on a character's life? Butters is involved now and I don't think he's going to be nearly as invincible as he may have been previously. Or as visible, because he's got a job now and it's been made pretty clear that while Dresden and the Knights cross paths now and then they have a job to do and it doesn't usually involve Dresden. Andi annoys me as a character because she's basically the last of the Alphas we see regularly and she's not useful or really part of the team. She's been used as a kidnap victim-slash-hostage multiple times. I don't think she's a very good character. I don't think I could ever hate Butters though.
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Oct 25, 2014 03:26
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WRT Butters being a Mary-Sue... didn't Butcher play him in the TV show?
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Oct 25, 2014 06:47
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mirthdefect posted:WRT Butters being a Mary-Sue... didn't Butcher play him in the TV show? Nah, played by a guy named Matt Gordon according to IMDB.
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Oct 25, 2014 07:08
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Skippy McPants posted:Nah, played by a guy named Matt Gordon according to IMDB. My bad. He was an "extra" working as Butter's assistant in the background.
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Oct 25, 2014 07:58
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Butcher has said that he wrote Butters so that he would have a character he could cosplay. Maybe that's what you were thinking of?
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Oct 25, 2014 08:22
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Wittgen posted:Butcher has said that he wrote Butters so that he would have a character he could cosplay. Maybe that's what you were thinking of? These days Micheal, Morgan, or Billy would be a better fit.
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Oct 25, 2014 10:32
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Wittgen posted:Butcher has said that he wrote Butters so that he would have a character he could cosplay. Maybe that's what you were thinking of? Nope. Dude behind Justin's coffin. 
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Oct 25, 2014 21:01
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Wittgen posted:Then in Skin Game, he spends the entire book being a faithless, sullen asshat. This behavior puts his friends, innocent children, and an angel in serious danger. For this shittiness, he gets the sword of faith. What? I see Andi as more of a wasted character than a bad one, but she's very disappointing. She's a loving badass werewolf, but the only thing she's had to do recently is be a damsel in distress or be Butters' disproportionately hot girlfriend. Justine, who is a problematic character herself, has more agency and plot impact than Andi does.
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Oct 26, 2014 01:13
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I really liked Butters up until Ghost Story. Dude has become quite a dick.
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Oct 26, 2014 02:25
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Butters should have loving stayed dead when the Corpsetaker ripped his soul out of his body is what I'm getting at. Regarding Andi, I think there was a bit in either Cold Days or Ghost Story where Dresden makes some kind of "We ought to rename her Danger Prone Daphne" remark when she gets kidnapped again.
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Oct 28, 2014 12:23
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Butters has the same problem as Murphy does. The series has kinda gone past the point where they have a believable role in things. There's the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady, valkyries, werewolves, godlike beings left and right. Satan & Co. locked up in the cellar. The stakes are just too high for having dude with a medical degree and cop who knows judo be believable actors after Ghost Story.
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Oct 28, 2014 12:55
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General Emergency posted:Butters has the same problem as Murphy does. The series has kinda gone past the point where they have a believable role in things. There's the Winter Knight, the Winter Lady, valkyries, werewolves, godlike beings left and right. Satan & Co. locked up in the cellar. The thing is that they do have legit rolls to play in the story and if Jim had wanted to they could have been quite relevant. Their current roles were that Butters patches Harry up and provides him anatomical or medical knowledge and Murphy provides mundane alternatives to Harry blowing things up or Hocus Pocusing answers out of thin air. But, they could have been made more important easily. Butters through his experiences with the super-natural could have made scientific discoveries and moved into a strong position at a well equipped and funded research lab. Murphy could have, instead of being ostracized, moved up in the PD and had more access to help Harry as his obstacles got larger. Maybe even a national position with Homeland Security or the FBI. Instead Butcher pulled them both down and poo poo all over them and made them really awful characters.
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Oct 28, 2014 15:14
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Its almost as if The Dresden books..... aren't very good  Thats not to say they can't be fun and enjoyable in a pulpy way, but I stopped expecting the writing/character-development to be any good a long time ago. Mr.48 fucked around with this message at 00:28 on Oct 29, 2014 |
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Oct 28, 2014 15:50
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Mr.48 posted:Its almost as if The Dresden books..... arent aren't very good The weird thing is that they can have *moments* where they're actually legitimately good. Murphy has had moments of being an actual independent and well-developed character, for example. Butcher just can't sustain it.
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Oct 28, 2014 16:15
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I didn't know people hated Butters. I like the little guy. I also like how he turned into sort of a Wizard Batman. He's fun. 
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Oct 28, 2014 16:27
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ConfusedUs posted:I didn't know people hated Butters. I'm with you, man. Some people are quite heated about it, and this revelation kinda blind sides me.
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Oct 28, 2014 18:27
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Butters IS fun. And he's grown a lot over the series. (He had a lot of room to grow!) The problem is that we're told and not shown a lot of it since it's not really in Harry's field of view since he was dead. We really need a Butters and Bob short story/series of shorts like the Bigfoot trilogy to fill in some of the gap there. I feel like Butters is getting the same flak in Cold Days/Skin Game that Murphy got in Fool Moon because he wasn't completely on the 'Team Dresden' train, even though he had good reason to be wary of Winter Knight Harry.
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Oct 28, 2014 18:32
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He's just super annoying. And Marsters does this high pitched voice for him that adds to that annoyance I guess. (I've never actually "read" a single word in the entire series.) Dresden screaming Parkour! throughout Skin Game is hilarious.
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Oct 28, 2014 23:38
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Butters and Murphey can still be relevant...just not at the power level Harry is operating at. Honestly I think Butcher should start doing more short stories or maybe a full-on spin-off series featuring the lower-power-level characters doing the old magical-noir thing that Harry used to do. As Harry gets more and more powerful and the stakes get higher and higher, the need for a cop or a coroner get less and less. Butters being a Knight is potentially helpful, but it'll be really unbelievable if he starts doing the same type of craziness Michael used to get up to. I like the power level curve that Dresden has been on so far, having him go from taking a job at his PI office all the way up to robbing Hades' bank vault is a great journey; its just leaving some of the side characters behind. I would love to see a Paranet anthology. Lower-power stories, maybe written by various other offers? Give Murph a chance to be 'in charge' of a couple of new talents or something.
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Oct 29, 2014 09:30
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Don't hold your breath. Jim has said several times that he doesn't particularly like writing short stories because they take as much effort as a novel (for him) with a fraction of the return. He'll probably do enough to round out one more collection and that's it.
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Oct 29, 2014 12:56
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jivjov posted:Butters and Murphey can still be relevant...just not at the power level Harry is operating at. Honestly I think Butcher should start doing more short stories or maybe a full-on spin-off series featuring the lower-power-level characters doing the old magical-noir thing that Harry used to do. As Harry gets more and more powerful and the stakes get higher and higher, the need for a cop or a coroner get less and less. Butters being a Knight is potentially helpful, but it'll be really unbelievable if he starts doing the same type of craziness Michael used to get up to. I like the power level curve that Dresden has been on so far, having him go from taking a job at his PI office all the way up to robbing Hades' bank vault is a great journey; its just leaving some of the side characters behind. Actually the dresden files RPG is releasing a paranet RPG book, so there will probably be some fluff in that book.
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Oct 29, 2014 16:16
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Grundulum posted:And, in the background, Ebenezer will wink and give Harry a thumbs-up. You're right, though, we feel overdue for a White Council book. Good news, Jim Butcher said the next book will apparently be "Peace Talks", about the Fomor and White Council negotiating peace (with no problems at all occurring during this, naturally). So they would obviously make a reappearance there. At least this time the White Council is gonna have trouble blaming Harry for THIS war considering he was dead when it started.
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Oct 30, 2014 04:55
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