Linux: vim isn't moe

The Something Awful Forums > Discussion > Serious Hardware/Software Crap > YOSPOS > Linux: vim isn't moe

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

if what bsd is saying is true then how does swap/suspend/hibernate work on os x?

the fixed partition is needed for kdump not suspend/hibernate

kdump is running after the kernel has already crashed. that would be a really bad time to touch filesystem data structures, so it's important to already have a fixed swap location before it runs

# ? Oct 27, 2014 22:39

Adbot: ADBOT LOVES YOU

# ? Apr 26, 2024 05:49

Winkle-Daddy: Mar 10, 2007

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

the only time you should ever touch swap, ever, is to dump kernel memory to disk. either for debugging, or for suspend/resume. this requires a fixed swap partition of known size to be immediately available w/out any code executing to create it

any other use of swap is a perversity.

it is not my fault your desktop is seriously loving hosed up. that is a problem with your employer not a problem with the sane defaults established by your distribution's installer

or if you cj'd OpenVZ stacks during the time there was that kernel bug that wouldn't free swap, and you'd have to do the swapoff/swapon dance while people complained they can't SSH to the box. THANKS FOR YOUR OPTIMIZED KERNEL DICK HOLES!

# ? Oct 27, 2014 22:42

Winkle-Daddy: Mar 10, 2007

Winkle-Daddy posted:

OPTIMIZED KERNEL DICK HOLES

mods?

# ? Oct 27, 2014 22:43

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Winkle-Daddy posted:

or if you cj'd OpenVZ stacks during the time there was that kernel bug that wouldn't free swap, and you'd have to do the swapoff/swapon dance while people complained they can't SSH to the box. THANKS FOR YOUR OPTIMIZED KERNEL DICK HOLES!

virtuozzo is an abomination

if i ever have to cat /proc/user_beancounters again it will be too soon

# ? Oct 27, 2014 22:44

Cocoa Crispies: Jul 20, 2001; Vehicular Manslaughter!; Pillbug

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

if what bsd is saying is true then how does swap/suspend/hibernate work on os x?

uses files

# ? Oct 27, 2014 22:53

Workaday Wizard: Oct 23, 2009; by Pragmatica

sorry i meant to ask : can os x produce kernel dumps? is the regular os x's kernel debuggable?

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:07

BobHoward: Feb 13, 2012; The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

the only time you should ever touch swap, ever, is to dump kernel memory to disk. either for debugging, or for suspend/resume. this requires a fixed swap partition of known size to be immediately available w/out any code executing to create it

any other use of swap is a perversity.

it is not my fault your desktop is seriously loving hosed up. that is a problem with your employer not a problem with the sane defaults established by your distribution's installer

as usual your reading comprehension is creatively stupid, bsd stymie

also lol that u think the only purpose of swap is to dump kernel memory. even in environments where all the users are theoretically clueful, the real world is imperfect. having swap as a backstop prevents terrible problems like losing a week's worth of simulation (aka a week's worth of deadline) to the oom killer when some rear end in a top hat doesn't check whether it's safe to start up another sim on the same compute server

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:08

BobHoward: Feb 13, 2012; The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

sorry i meant to ask : can os x produce kernel dumps? is the regular os x's kernel debuggable?

yes, it can dump over tcp/ip. it also supports two-machine debugging where gdb on one system uses firewire remote dma to debug the live kernel on the other

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:12

sports: Sep 1, 2012

most of the current programming talent goes to Apple to fix errors older than themselves.

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:16

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

BobHoward posted:

even in environments where all the users are theoretically clueful, the real world is imperfect. having swap as a backstop prevents terrible problems like losing a week's worth of simulation (aka a week's worth of deadline) to the oom killer when some rear end in a top hat doesn't check whether it's safe to start up another sim on the same compute server

lol

you use swap as a backstop because you have no batch processing system. great job, guys

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:17

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

i think i have figured it out: bobhoward works in the late 1990s

his unix workstation has 4G of ram and relies on swap to not crash
he runs critical "simulations" on shared unix systems without any meaningful job control or dispatch
he's very excited about features in apple's horrible 1980s unix

how does the internet reach from us to your time, bob

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:18

Captain Foo: May 11, 2004; we vibin'
we slidin'
we breathin'
we dyin'

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

i think i have figured it out: bobhoward works in the late 1990s

his unix workstation has 4G of ram and relies on swap to not crash

he runs critical "simulations" on shared unix systems without any meaningful job control or dispatch

he's very excited about features in apple's horrible 1980s unix

how does the internet reach from us to your time, bob

sounds more like you don't live in the real world but OK

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:20

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

Captain Foo posted:

sounds more like you don't live in the real world but OK

none of us do. we live in the 'pos

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:24

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

i live in a world where operations guys get paged immediately if a server hits swap

because that is an error condition

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:25

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

googling for linux dynamic swap shows something like 3 projects that do this, apparently.

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:29

bobbilljim: May 29, 2013; this christmas feels like the very first christmas to me

2014, year of Linux on the DESKTOP, where noone in their right mind gives / should give a poo poo about swap or ram utilization.

BobHoward posted:

and it's actually dumb everywhere, not just desktop

i'll give u a real world non desktop example so u can comprehend.

shhhh

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

i live in a world where operations guys get paged immediately if a server hits swap

sshhhhhhhhhhhhh

# ? Oct 27, 2014 23:34

jre: Sep 2, 2011; To the cloud ?

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

i live in a world where operations guys get paged immediately if a server hits swap

because that is an error condition

Is it cold in your ivory tower BSD stymie ?

# ? Oct 28, 2014 00:06

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

jre posted:

Is it cold in your ivory tower BSD stymie ?

if it gets cold i call facilities and a nice man from Johnson Controls adjusts the HVAC to suit my needs

# ? Oct 28, 2014 00:34

PIGEOTO: Sep 11, 2007

The solution is to buy more ram haha

# ? Oct 28, 2014 00:48

PIGEOTO: Sep 11, 2007

# ? Oct 28, 2014 00:48

PIGEOTO: Sep 11, 2007

I hope you all progress far enough in your funny computing careers that you reach the point of nirvana where you no longer give a poo poo about arguing over whether your devs do or don't get paged when a server hits swap holy Christ you are all spergs

# ? Oct 28, 2014 00:55

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

if you have one hundred and twenty eight gigabytes of random access memory in your personal computer architecture based server and you hit swap then you have some serious problems

also loving lol you're saying a SIGBUS or a SIGSEGV would wipe out an entire week's worth of computing work? like seriously? you have absolutely no way to checkpoint this poo poo to disk?

"doctor it hurts when i hammer myself repeatedly in the balls"

# ? Oct 28, 2014 01:26

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

anyway as for my laptop uuh i don't want to flashburn my ssd when swapping and even with this 2009-era c2d piece of crap with 4gb of ram my computing needs seem to be fully suited without any sort of swap. i can see how cad or video editing or poo poo like that might actually need some decent amounts of ram tho but i mean at that point you probably would want IT to get your needs professionally suited for you

and yeah swap files work fine anyway and have done since like ever

not if you use btrfs mind you but btrfs is bad anyway imo

# ? Oct 28, 2014 01:28

bobbilljim: May 29, 2013; this christmas feels like the very first christmas to me

Mr Dog posted:

anyway as for my laptop uuh i don't want to flashburn my ssd when swapping and even with this 2009-era c2d piece of crap with 4gb of ram my computing needs seem to be fully suited without any sort of swap. i can see how cad or video editing or poo poo like that might actually need some decent amounts of ram tho but i mean at that point you probably would want IT to get your needs professionally suited for you

and yeah swap files work fine anyway and have done since like ever

not if you use btrfs mind you but btrfs is bad anyway imo

years ago i used my eee pc 701 with no swap as i had installed 4GB of ram which was coincidentally the size of the SSD in the laptop and it suited my needs fine

# ? Oct 28, 2014 01:51

eschaton: Mar 7, 2007; Don't you just hate when you wind up in a store with people who are in a socioeconomic class that is pretty obviously about two levels lower than your own?

Captain Foo posted:

sounds more like you don't live in the real world but OK

# ? Oct 28, 2014 01:51

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

PIGEOTO posted:

I hope you all progress far enough in your funny computing careers that you reach the point of nirvana where you no longer give a poo poo about arguing over whether your devs do or don't get paged when a server hits swap holy Christ you are all spergs

spergs? in MY yospos!?

# ? Oct 28, 2014 02:23

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

Shinku ABOOKEN posted:

sorry i meant to ask : can os x produce kernel dumps? is the regular os x's kernel debuggable?

i thought osx used the filesystem, an idiot choice, but i was wrong

osx actually has a semi-sane design. you configure a second dump server on the network and it writes over the network. a crude solution but it should work ok.

(what happens when i need to work on a network driver crash? linux ameliorates this stuff by having kdump execute a second kernel with un-crashed drivers)

# ? Oct 28, 2014 02:25

BobHoward: Feb 13, 2012; The only thing white people deserve is a bullet to their empty skull

Mr Dog posted:

if you have one hundred and twenty eight gigabytes of random access memory in your personal computer architecture based server and you hit swap then you have some serious problems

also loving lol you're saying a SIGBUS or a SIGSEGV would wipe out an entire week's worth of computing work? like seriously? you have absolutely no way to checkpoint this poo poo to disk?

"doctor it hurts when i hammer myself repeatedly in the balls"

lol if u think eda cad tools are always great about checkpointing etc. welcome to the world of being an end user who(se employer) pays huge amounts of money for the privilege of using software that is poo poo

(okay this is everyone's world but it is especially true in my field)

lol that nbsd thinks small companies in shaky condition (i'm no longer employed there due to corporate existential crisis :smith:

) even have an on-call server ops team

lol that every time i post people keep ignoring the point which is that the most correct way to solve this problem (and no matter how much u think its not a real problem its still something os designers must worry about) is to use a simple technology from the stone age of computing

u wouldn't accept static allocation of ram in a general purpose operation system why accept static allocation of disk for swap

# ? Oct 28, 2014 02:45

Qtotonibudinibudet: Nov 7, 2011; Omich poluyobok, skazhi ty narkoman? ya prosto tozhe gde to tam zhivu, mogli by vmeste uyobyvat' narkotiki

BobHoward posted:

why accept static allocation of disk for swap

patches welcome etc

# ? Oct 28, 2014 02:49

pram: Jun 10, 2001

BobHoward posted:

u wouldn't accept static allocation of ram

lol someone never used basically any open source hypervisor

# ? Oct 28, 2014 02:50

SYSV Fanfic: Sep 9, 2003; by Pragmatica

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

i live in a world where operations guys get paged immediately if a server hits swap

because that is an error condition

When I was an RHEL sysadmin, I could never ever figure out why exactly 128mb of swap started being used within 24 hours of a reboot. There was always at least 4GB of ram free. Considering every kernel errata for RHEL was novella length I figured it would be one of life's great mysteries.

I envied the windows admin team. Reboot, Reboot, Reboot, Reboot. Fourth reboot didn't work? Call Microsoft.

# ? Oct 28, 2014 03:16

graph: Nov 22, 2006; aaag peanuts

pram posted:

open source hypervisor

n-n-nnn-n-n-no dont

# ? Oct 28, 2014 03:16

pram: Jun 10, 2001

vm.swappiness you moron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swappiness

# ? Oct 28, 2014 03:17

Notorious b.s.d.: Jan 25, 2003; by Reene

keyvin posted:

When I was an RHEL sysadmin, I could never ever figure out why exactly 128mb of swap started being used within 24 hours of a reboot. There was always at least 4GB of ram free. Considering every kernel errata for RHEL was novella length I figured it would be one of life's great mysteries.

I envied the windows admin team. Reboot, Reboot, Reboot, Reboot. Fourth reboot didn't work? Call Microsoft.

pram posted:

vm.swappiness you moron

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swappiness

incidentally this is why you monitor swapin/swapout rates and not swap usage directly

there are innocuous ways to misconfigure a server that will cause small amounts of swap to be used, but it doesn't matter because rates will be 0: long-lived files in a tmpfs, vm.swappiness set too high and a long-lived app wires memory it doesn't access often etc

# ? Oct 28, 2014 04:02

Last Chance: Dec 31, 2004

Notorious b.s.d. posted:

i live in a world where operations guys get paged immediately if a server hits swap

because that is an error condition

paged... swap... I GET IT

# ? Oct 28, 2014 04:20

Sapozhnik: Jan 2, 2005; Nap Ghost

BobHoward posted:

lol if u think eda cad tools are always great about checkpointing etc. welcome to the world of being an end user who(se employer) pays huge amounts of money for the privilege of using software that is poo poo

(okay this is everyone's world but it is especially true in my field)

lol that nbsd thinks small companies in shaky condition (i'm no longer employed there due to corporate existential crisis ) even have an on-call server ops team

lol that every time i post people keep ignoring the point which is that the most correct way to solve this problem (and no matter how much u think its not a real problem its still something os designers must worry about) is to use a simple technology from the stone age of computing

u wouldn't accept static allocation of ram in a general purpose operation system why accept static allocation of disk for swap

i meant the guy who was doing week-long compute cluster simulations with no way to recover from a SIGSEGV or whatever

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CRIU

this may be of interest to that person btw

(still can't believe this insane poo poo exists)

# ? Oct 28, 2014 04:50