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Darth Windu posted:No. As a diamond 1 player, even in diamond you should barely play counterpicks, ESPECIALLY into lanes. You may play counters on a global team comp perspective and that is fine, but it's ALMOST always better to just play a comfort pick. There are some matchups I will not play no matter what because they are so hard, but even so, it's better to just pick another comfort than an actual counter.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:08
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I am not asking for freelo advice or what is the better strategy or whether or not I should be worried about counters, I am asking for good resources on learning good counters and compositions. Right now I am open to playing any champion and losing horribly for it, but I enjoy picking a champ that makes it easier to play into someone while I give away free MMR to everyone.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:15
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The only way you're going to learn anything useful about counters is by playing champions and learning matchups from experience.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:16
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Saying Sivir counters Cait is the same as saying Yi counters Zed because he can meditate through Zed's mark. Cait pretty much stomps Sivir
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Oct 28, 2014 04:19
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glomkettle posted:The only way you're going to learn anything useful about counters is by playing champions and learning matchups from experience. I still remember my first match against Talon as Veigar 
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Oct 28, 2014 04:24
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glomkettle posted:The only way you're going to learn anything useful about counters is by playing champions and learning matchups from experience. That statement is objectively incorrect. I will just assume there aren't any better resources than the ones I mentioned at this point.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:26
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Observe Me posted:Saying Sivir counters Cait is the same as saying Yi counters Zed because he can meditate through Zed's mark. Cait pretty much stomps Sivir Yi does beat Zed tho and that is why D:
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Oct 28, 2014 04:27
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psymonkey posted:Yi does beat Zed tho and that is why D: Yes but a better Zed but can beat a worse Yi so let's never talk about this topic openly again i'll loving cut you
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Oct 28, 2014 04:29
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All Else Failed posted:That statement is objectively incorrect. I will just assume there aren't any better resources than the ones I mentioned at this point. lolcounters sucks because it is wrong for the most part. A lot of their so called "counters" aren't, and in some cases it goes both ways because ITS A SKILL MATCHUP.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:29
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All Else Failed posted:That statement is objectively incorrect. I will just assume there aren't any better resources than the ones I mentioned at this point. What you're are asking for is like asking what counters this and why. And you're missing the parts that matter which are who picked what? Ex. if they pick kassadin, wukong and warwick, and your team picked morgana sup, mid swain, and you're picking with some other dude and you're playing jungle. Now you have a bunch of picks. You can assume that it's wukong top and warwick jungle, if that's the case you have to think about what are the common traits of feral flare junglers. What are the Feral Flare junglers. Now that you've thought about what common junglers are there, now think about how do kassadin and wukong and warwick position themselves @ around 20 minutes for a mid push. How do they want to get on you. Then you have to think about what champs have advantages against the enemy junglers. Like what happens pre and post 6 if you find them in the jungle in a 1v1. I can guarantee that like 99% of the population doesn't even consider this.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:40
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All Else Failed posted:I am not asking for freelo advice or what is the better strategy or whether or not I should be worried about counters, I am asking for good resources on learning good counters and compositions. In all sincerity there are very very rare hard counters to champs in league. There are some obvious ones like "Hey picking anything with very short range and no gap closers or disjoints" into Ryze or Quinn or something. There are some rough matchups, but no real hard counters. Think about what the enemy champ does and think "Does my roster of champs have a response to this that can farm off with them?" if yeah, try it out. As for comps that's more of a thinking about what the champs on your team do + what you can add to it. A Xerath or Ziggs pick might encourage you to try Nidalee or Jayce top because that's a really pokey comp, or take Skarner in the jungle into midlaners with really hard CC. But honestly it's all kinda for naught if you don't play the champ a lot or enjoy it. In solo queue just about anything goes and you could have an entire team of squishy assassins that beats down a bunch of tanky bruisers. For realsies, find champs you like and play them. You'll figure out what's a hard matchup sooner than you know if you play a champ enough times. And how well your pick contributes to a team.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:41
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All Else Failed posted:I am not asking for freelo advice or what is the better strategy or whether or not I should be worried about counters, I am asking for good resources on learning good counters and compositions. Just play characters, then keep playing the ones you have fun with. What you're looking for is just going to make you spend a bunch of time and energy on something which isn't going to improve your game or make you have more fun.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:49
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psymonkey posted:Yi does beat Zed tho and that is why D: You can actually completely deny the Death Mark from being applied at all if you have something to Alpha Strike to at a certain point during the cast.  That said, typically Zed will win the match up early (more so if Yi is jungling than in a lane) and then the farther into the game you get the more Yi can wipe Zed off the goddamn map before he has a chance to do anything relevant.
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Oct 28, 2014 04:51
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To actually answer your question lolcounters is not a good web site because the submissions are added and voted on by the general public. Championselect is hilariously out of date. Check sites like probuilds and people will discuss lane matchups in articles. That's really your best bet. It's generally more important to be sure you aren't picking into an extremely weak lane for yourself than trying to pick the strongest possible lane. That's why nobody will ever shut up about cait/siv whenever the topic comes up, outside of the very few times Sivir has been strong it's an extremely bad matchup due to the range mismatch but it's on all the Web Sites that sivir counters cait because you can spell shield traps/the ult.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:00
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psymonkey posted:Don't worry about counters and play what you want. Use your brain and understand what you are capable of and what your opponent is capable of and find your openings to get favorable trades. Counter picks only really matter in perfectly even skill matches where each player is equally skilled in the match in question. League is a rather complex game in a lot of ways. In any case a player with 500 games as champion X that has played against champion Y numerous times is going to crush somebody that has never played champion Y before but picked them specifically to counter champion X. If you can't explain why Y counters X then you cannot counter X with Y. I've seen a lot of games where a counter pick went very badly on to see "wait, doesn't Y counter X?" Well, if X knows the match well then they can turn it around, counter pick or not. People can also do quite well picking all sorts of ridiculous things. Spooky Bear Ghost does well with Urgot, who is often considered literally the worst champion in the game. Warchicken made Diamond playing nothing but support Teemo. Hell I nearly made Gold last season maining top Thresh. I've seen insane things like support Darius do extremely well. The right pick is the one you win games as and have fun playing. No more, no less. ToxicSlurpee fucked around with this message at 05:03 on Oct 28, 2014 |
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Oct 28, 2014 05:01
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Websites aren't very good at tracking counters because the game isn't static. X beats Y one patch and then an item that's core to X gets nerfed and now he loses to Y, or Y gets direct buffs that let them deal with X better. Ask yourself instead, "What gives this champion a hard time?" Then pick a champ you are good at that fills that criteria. Think about a champion's strengths, and you should be able to see which archetypes they do well against. Caitlyn's extreme range will make it very difficult for Sivir to CS. Morgana is very strong against single-target-pickoff CC like Ahri and Elise. Rammus, Malphite and Taric are extremely strong against All-AD comps. Gnar is strong against melee bruisers, but struggles vs. those with on-demand gap closers. Akali has difficulty dealing with Lee Sin's multiple reveals.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:03
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Counterpicks matter in a couple situations, usually in top lane - but it's more about things like "If the enemy picks Nasus for the love of god pick either something that can actually kill him or something that scales okay" Also things like "Dont blind pick Garen unless you are a Garen autist" So I guess it's less counterpicking and more not setting yourself up to fail by picking into a lane where you're going to struggle just by the nature of how the 2 champions interact.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:08
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So a little while ago I started playing a lot of Support Lee Sin, and more recently I decided to do a write up of my experiences and I made a guide. If anyone's interested, give it a read: http://www.lolking.net/guides/313306
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Oct 28, 2014 05:09
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A Stupid Baby posted:Counterpicks matter in a couple situations, usually in top lane - but it's more about things like "If the enemy picks Nasus for the love of god pick either something that can actually kill him or something that scales okay" Valid point. My favorite picks to see when I grab Nasus are things like Mundo, Singed, or Shyvana. Yeah we can have a farm party under my tower, I'm fine with that. Don't mind me, I'm just pressing Q and hitting minions, nothing to see here.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:12
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What does a support Lee Sin do? Pick jungle instead?
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Oct 28, 2014 05:15
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Invalid Validation posted:What does a support Lee Sin do? Pick jungle instead? Kill the enemy ADC. Repeat until end of lanephase.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:19
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I totally agree that there is no magic bullet to countering, and there is no real substitute for thinking on your feet when it comes to League. I have only recently been more confident in building a sensible itemization without an inherent feeling of "oh god I am loving this up". But it's like riding a bike and I'm not ready to completely rip off the training wheels, and I say this with confidence because when I do go to the matchups section of high LKS LoLking guides during a loading screen it often very directly contributes to me winning my lane because someone much better than me has recorded what works best in that matchup -- sometimes I will even look up a guide for the champ I am laning against and see what the advice is to them about what I will do, that is how I eventually learned that when I play Fizz everyone with half a brain is waiting for me to blow my E on waveclear to harass me, et cetera. I guess I was hoping there was a better site out there, since I didn't even know about Libertine's stats or op.gg til a couple of months ago after 2+ years of playing. So I guess, instead, I am recommending the Lolking matchups sections on guides to other noobs out there who want tips on their matchups because as noobs we are not capable of thinking it out that well yet. And with teamcomps, I am maybe overemphasizing it since in my elo and solo Q it really doesn't matter as much but a lot of stuff just seems counterintuitive to me. I can come up with a million reasons why my team will or won't work but I don't have the game knowledge to know which of those theories is nonsense or actually applicable, if that makes sense. Maybe I was hoping for a Foxdrop type dude who specializes in this area of the game. As for just playing champs I like, I do sometimes (I played like 15 games trying out Warwick this weekend and it was so fun and easy, and I basically only played Talon with a little Skarner from the end of Season 2 [when I started playing] to like the start of Season 4 or something). But in the past few months I have taken to trying to play every free champs and playing champs that I bought before or in a pack that I maybe wasn't ready for before and it has greatly helped in keeping the game fun and in learning what every champ does, as well as finding me some of my favorite and best champs. I will never be good enough to matter at this game and once I get my life together I doubt I'll even play that much but in the meantime I'm all up in it and trying to increase my game knowledge through things other than just spamming games. Whew, lotsa text, soz m8s A Stupid Baby posted:Counterpicks matter in a couple situations, usually in top lane - but it's more about things like "If the enemy picks Nasus for the love of god pick either something that can actually kill him or something that scales okay" I mean, that's what I mean by counterpicks. You literally defined what I am asking about. I think people in this thread just have an aversion to the term "counters" because they picture themselves as noobs or current noobs and think "god how disgusting he thinks he can pick this champ and insta-win fuckin' scrublord" but that's not what I am saying. I hate first picking for that reason, though I consider mysefl a jungle main these days and I can usually get away with that, but I never really have any idea what's safe to blindpick. And I like looking at, say, their midlaner and then looking up who "interacts favorably" (read: is a counterpick) and then looking into my champion pool and picking one I'd like to play. Enrico Furby fucked around with this message at 05:27 on Oct 28, 2014 |
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Oct 28, 2014 05:24
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ToxicSlurpee posted:Valid point. My favorite picks to see when I grab Nasus are things like Mundo, Singed, or Shyvana. Yeah we can have a farm party under my tower, I'm fine with that. Don't mind me, I'm just pressing Q and hitting minions, nothing to see here. Singed is one of my most played toplaners and longest played champs because I feel like he is useful no matter what unless he gets dumpstered by a Jayce or something, so many times have I gone manmode and 0-2 or 0-3 and still won my lane via kills and/or towers just by being an annoyingly aggro twat.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:27
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One thing I do use lolcounters for is to check the abilities of the other champ. It is pretty useful to know that Siver's shield is on like a 22 sec CD. If I see a champ I haven't seen in a long time I'll check that too. I didn't know what Malzahar's spaceaids actually did so I looked that up and learned "don't stand near the creepline or near anybody with the spooky aura". I cannot and probably won't commit everything to memory and the counter websites are brief enough to look at while the game is loading.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:31
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All Else Failed posted:Singed is one of my most played toplaners and longest played champs because I feel like he is useful no matter what unless he gets dumpstered by a Jayce or something, so many times have I gone manmode and 0-2 or 0-3 and still won my lane via kills and/or towers just by being an annoyingly aggro twat. Singed is always useful sure but he has trouble preventing Nasus from getting 500 stacks in 20 minutes. Singed generally wants to push the lane as hard as he freaking can. Nasus wants you to push his lane. That's kind of an odd match in that way; Singed will probably farm like mad and become a tanky poo poo while Nasus will be eating your carries with 1,500 damage Q crits.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:39
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Just played against a team that was all junglers with invisibility. They had a Shaco, Rengar, Twitch, Khazix and Teemo, all with Teleport and Smite. I guess this was meant to be some unstoppable OP troll team with them just teleporting around anywhere, but they were pushed to their inhibitors by the 18 minute mark. They surrendered at 20, I finished the game with 9/3/11.
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Oct 28, 2014 05:47
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How Rude posted:Nasus is the most boring champion ever. If you can't first blood him before his first back you automatically lose the Nasus game and it loving sucks. I love seeing a Nasus on the enemy team because that's one less person who can annihilate me for picking Kog'Maw and the shred from W/Bork passive really does work on him. A lot of solo queue enemy teams are a bunch of dumb assholes who will pick on you for picking the objectively cutest and best ADC 
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Oct 28, 2014 06:10
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Well back up to the original question about counters, no, unfortunately I don't think there's really a good source for learning that stuff outside just accrued game knowlege, which is a shame. People do have a tendency to tunnel way too hard on counters and especially lane counters so there's an overreaction and people write them off. I'd actually be interested in compiling some sort of counter list of the sort you're talking about, especially cross-lane stuff: What do I pick if I'm looking at the draft and mostly worried about what I can do to keep their jungle Yi off my carry, what are my choices as: a top lane, as support? It'd probably be a big project and would have to be curated by a small group of people to avoid the idiocy that trying to crowdsource that information would lead to (Nami is WAY better than Alistar at dealing with Yi! No Alistar is! You're both stupid Lulu is the only way to go!)
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Oct 28, 2014 06:18
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rabidsquid posted:I love seeing a Nasus on the enemy team because that's one less person who can annihilate me for picking Kog'Maw and the shred from W/Bork passive really does work on him. Nasus is a pretty terrible teamfighter unless he's like, stupid ahead and it's still early, or the majority of his team is beef. Most of the time he wants to just be inexorably pushing your inhib turrets down, and if he gets hella feed he's going to require like 3 or so people to actually kill him. In actual teamfights against compositions that aren't trash he's very vulnerable to getting kited or blown the hell up before he can actually do anything of any value in the fight.
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Oct 28, 2014 06:22
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Who the gently caress locks in Quinn top - and thus should know she's trash anywhere else - and then willingly allows some dipshit to take top as Teemo, with a Shaco jungle and AP Ezrael mid, into loving Lucian/Sona. We even shoved Sona out of lane at level 2, and then Lucian just dumpstered Quinn anyhow because Quinn is useless.
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Oct 28, 2014 06:23
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Down With People posted:Just played against a team that was all junglers with invisibility. They had a Shaco, Rengar, Twitch, Khazix and Teemo, all with Teleport and Smite. ONE TIME I PLAYED A GAME AND THERE WAS A BLUE GUY AND HE HAD SHINY GEMS THAT SPARKLED. I LIKED HIM. HE TOOK THE BURNING SPELL AND THAT WAS MEAN WHEN HE USED IT ON ME. I WAS PLAYING AS AN ALLIGATOR. I LIKE ALLIGATORS THEY ARE COOL AND NICE.WE HAD A NICE TIME PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AND THEN WE WON LOL. I GUESS THE OTHER TEAMS STRATEGY OF BLUE GUY WITH BURNY SPELL DIDNT PAY OFF IN THE END. WHAT A DAY.
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Oct 28, 2014 06:35
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Headline posted:ONE TIME I PLAYED A GAME AND THERE WAS A BLUE GUY AND HE HAD SHINY GEMS THAT SPARKLED. I LIKED HIM. HE TOOK THE BURNING SPELL AND THAT WAS MEAN WHEN HE USED IT ON ME. I WAS PLAYING AS AN ALLIGATOR. I LIKE ALLIGATORS THEY ARE COOL AND NICE.WE HAD A NICE TIME PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AND THEN WE WON LOL. I GUESS THE OTHER TEAMS STRATEGY OF BLUE GUY WITH BURNY SPELL DIDNT PAY OFF IN THE END. WHAT A DAY.
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Oct 28, 2014 06:39
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Quinn is actually a lane bully (granted, probably not against Lucian). You can actually apply a lot of pressure with her bot depending on who your support is and what you're going up against, the problem with running her there (or at all) is that her teamfight is really awful. You're probably better off running a double bruiser kill lane. Your draft in particular is uniquely awful for any kind of teamfight and smells of "this idiot picked Quinn so Im just gonna pick something zany and have fun". The only way you win with a draft like that is if your entire team is way better than theirs (which happens sometimes and is always funny) Headline posted:ONE TIME I PLAYED A GAME AND THERE WAS A BLUE GUY AND HE HAD SHINY GEMS THAT SPARKLED. I LIKED HIM. HE TOOK THE BURNING SPELL AND THAT WAS MEAN WHEN HE USED IT ON ME. I WAS PLAYING AS AN ALLIGATOR. I LIKE ALLIGATORS THEY ARE COOL AND NICE.WE HAD A NICE TIME PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AND THEN WE WON LOL. I GUESS THE OTHER TEAMS STRATEGY OF BLUE GUY WITH BURNY SPELL DIDNT PAY OFF IN THE END. WHAT A DAY.
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Oct 28, 2014 06:39
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Headline posted:ONE TIME I PLAYED A GAME AND THERE WAS A BLUE GUY AND HE HAD SHINY GEMS THAT SPARKLED. I LIKED HIM. HE TOOK THE BURNING SPELL AND THAT WAS MEAN WHEN HE USED IT ON ME. I WAS PLAYING AS AN ALLIGATOR. I LIKE ALLIGATORS THEY ARE COOL AND NICE.WE HAD A NICE TIME PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AND THEN WE WON LOL. I GUESS THE OTHER TEAMS STRATEGY OF BLUE GUY WITH BURNY SPELL DIDNT PAY OFF IN THE END. WHAT A DAY.
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Oct 28, 2014 06:48
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itsjustdrew posted:WW isn't bad once you have a wits end and BORK. 2.00+ Attack speed, with my runes at least (AS red, ARM yellow, scaling MR blue, AS quints) and push comes to shove, you can always go balls deep and get AS boots. its 2 hits per minion, and if I have it, I 2 hit and smite sieges. it's not a waste because it stacks to / on my FF. If you have to autoattack every minion separately to clear waves as a melee champ, you don't have good waveclear.
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Oct 28, 2014 07:00
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A Stupid Baby posted:I'd actually be interested in compiling some sort of counter list of the sort you're talking about, especially cross-lane stuff: What do I pick if I'm looking at the draft and mostly worried about what I can do to keep their jungle Yi off my carry, what are my choices as: a top lane, as support? Most of the time, "how to balance your team's choices" is going to boil down to the following flowchart: I) Are you forced into picking ADC? If yes, go to II, if not, go to III. II) Pick the safest, most self-peeling ADC you know how to play well. Take heal. III) Are you in some timewarped twilight zone where nobody wants to play mid? If yes, go to IV, if not, go to V. IV) Pick the safest midlaner you know how to play well. Bonus points for reliable CC. Take exhaust against an assassin or burst mage and ignite against everyone else. V) Pick something tanky with CC. If you're jungling, take smite. If you're top, take TP. If you're supporting, take exhaust. xeose4 fucked around with this message at 07:12 on Oct 28, 2014 |
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Oct 28, 2014 07:05
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Something I learned today after playing some teambuilder Ahri. If a leblanc Distortions anywhere throw your Q where her jump-back point is. No LB will ever just not jump back. Ever. I assume this works for syndra Q as well, will have to do further testing.
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Oct 28, 2014 07:41
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A Stupid Baby posted:Quinn is actually a lane bully (granted, probably not against Lucian). You can actually apply a lot of pressure with her bot depending on who your support is and what you're going up against, the problem with running her there (or at all) is that her teamfight is really awful. You're probably better off running a double bruiser kill lane. It was a hilariously awful shitshow because I picked Leona expecting to get a real ADC and instead they did the swap and I was left with two assassins, Teemo, a skillshot AP mage who died to a stiff breeze and the hardest engage support in the game. Worse yet, none of them even wanted to fight when I went in, and then started talking about suicide Leona because their response to any engage was to run screaming in terror. By the end of the game I was ulting on cooldown to stop the other team from chasing, and basically accomplishing nothing else because the rest of the team died in three hits (their team had Darius and Ryze for a front line, too, it was terrible).
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Oct 28, 2014 08:34
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Headline posted:ONE TIME I PLAYED A GAME AND THERE WAS A BLUE GUY AND HE HAD SHINY GEMS THAT SPARKLED. I LIKED HIM. HE TOOK THE BURNING SPELL AND THAT WAS MEAN WHEN HE USED IT ON ME. I WAS PLAYING AS AN ALLIGATOR. I LIKE ALLIGATORS THEY ARE COOL AND NICE.WE HAD A NICE TIME PLAYING VIDEO GAMES AND THEN WE WON LOL. I GUESS THE OTHER TEAMS STRATEGY OF BLUE GUY WITH BURNY SPELL DIDNT PAY OFF IN THE END. WHAT A DAY. Might of been me, sorry. When taric was beast I played him top a bunch.
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Oct 28, 2014 09:23
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Had 2 afks in two games. Thankfully one was hexakill so I didn't get demoted out of silver 1, although Anivia seems pretty good at the moment. I went 9-5 despite it being a 4v5 so overall, could have been worse and actually ended up dissapointed that I didn't win it 4v5.
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Oct 28, 2014 12:09
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