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My crawl team was "David Bowie's Procedural Death Labyrinth" and now my brain fills in the "David Bowie" whenever I see it written.
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Dec 6, 2014 03:55
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| # ? Apr 27, 2024 09:49 |
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i fail to see the problem here
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Dec 6, 2014 04:21
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Sounds like a theme for a 7drl.
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Dec 6, 2014 12:18
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> You see before you ZIGGY STARDUST.
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Dec 6, 2014 12:43
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procedural death labyrinth is also a perfect description of what Invisible, Inc. is
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Dec 6, 2014 14:27
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John Harris' old @Play column (linked in the OP) talked about the whole "What is a roguelike" argument a bit. It goes back literally decades at this point, so nobody is going to solve it in this thread. A lot of people feel that things like random items that need identification are integral to being a Roguelike, but most modern ones are doing their best to phase that out or ignore it entirely. Ditto with hunger mechanics (although there are a lot of "time-pressure" mechanics that are still fairly common and serve basically the same function). To me the only two things you need to be a roguelike are: A) Randomness B) Permadeath I know there are games that have random level generation without permadeath like Torchlight or Diablo, but honestly without permadeath, you don't really get much out of being randomly generated. If you're plowing through a hack and slash RPG you probably don't really care whether the next hallway goes left or goes right. You're just charging through killing monsters and if you die you just run back to where you died and kill the monsters that just killed you and keep going. They might as well just be a linear RPG with random encounters like Final Fantasy games. Permadeath is what puts the danger in not knowing what's around the next corner, because if you charge in recklessly and die, you lose everything and start over. Dark Souls got a lot of mileage out of that feeling even without being randomly generated - the point of the randomness is that it creates that same feeling EVERY TIME, rather than just on your first go through the game. Also, I agree that "Procedural Death Labyrinth" is a metal as gently caress name and should really be what they're called. At the very least someone should make a GAME called Procedural Death Labyrinth.
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Dec 6, 2014 15:29
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Diablo and Diablo-likes can become somewhat closer to roguelike if you play on hardcore, since the levels and monsters are somewhat randomized and hardcore has permadeath. Hell, Minecraft and Terraria are sorta-kinda roguelikes if you play on hardcore. What they all definitely are on hardcore is procedural death labyrinths, since they are 1. "procedural" (random) and somewhat labyrinthine and 2. full of death. Same with FTL. This proves beyond doubt that Procedural Death Labyrinth (PDL) is the best new and inclusive genre name and I throw my full support behind its adoption. Let's use it alongside the more baroquely vague "roguelike" to further qualify games; Liberal Crime Squad is a roguelike, Diablo is a PDL, and DoomRL is a roguelike PDL. Angry Diplomat fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 17:12
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Deth Lab 4 Looty
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Dec 6, 2014 17:27
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Didn't Diablo originally start in pre-production as a turn based game? Thought I read that somewhere.
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Dec 6, 2014 18:09
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The Cheshire Cat posted:John Harris' old @Play column (linked in the OP) talked about the whole "What is a roguelike" argument a bit. It goes back literally decades at this point, so nobody is going to solve it in this thread. I think there's a big checklist of roguelike stuff and, for me, it needs to meet several of them. Some are more important that others, some are vital. I haven't sat down to figure out the exact formula but I don't think A/B are enough. Because I don't think A or B are necessary. Games with stiff punishments for death can still be a roguelike, static design can be a roguelike too.
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Dec 6, 2014 18:24
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Goddamn yall, is it really so hard to split games into roguelikes and roguelites? Nethack is a roguelike, BoI and FTL are roguelites. Problem solved.
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Dec 6, 2014 19:38
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It's all subjective anyway. My favorite traditional roguelikes are crawl, ultima online, warframe and cards against humanity but not everyone has to agree with that definition obviously.
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Dec 6, 2014 19:44
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It's not like other genres are 100% agreed upon either - both the Legend of Zelda & Monkey Island-series have often been called "adventure games", while obviously being entirely different.
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Dec 6, 2014 20:08
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The people who make the games should call it whatever the gently caress they want, just like bands that make up dumb fake genres to describe themselves.
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Dec 6, 2014 20:18
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Harvey Mantaco posted:Didn't Diablo originally start in pre-production as a turn based game? Thought I read that somewhere. I've heard the same thing -- somewhere in development one of the devs decided to remove the pause between turns to see what happened, and oh hey, it actually works pretty well. Diablo 1 is still very clearly tile-based and I seem to recall being able to "see" turns lurking in the background, so to speak (e.g. in seeing the timing of how entities act). Though of course it's no longer actually turn based given that it's possible to dodge projectiles by moving out of the way.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:10
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I've heard the same thing -- somewhere in development one of the devs decided to remove the pause between turns to see what happened, and oh hey, it actually works pretty well. Diablo 1 is still very clearly tile-based and I seem to recall being able to "see" turns lurking in the background, so to speak (e.g. in seeing the timing of how entities act). Though of course it's no longer actually turn based given that it's possible to dodge projectiles by moving out of the way. You can have a turn-based game that lets you dodge projectiles. TOME lets you do so, because many (though not all) projectiles have a defined movement speed rather than arriving instantaneously, and if you get a turn between when they're launched and when they get to where they're going, you can get out of the way. Obviously it isn't quite the same way Diablo lets you act since it's realtime (now, anyway), but it can happen.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:12
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Prism posted:You can have a turn-based game that lets you dodge projectiles. TOME lets you do so, because many (though not all) projectiles have a defined movement speed rather than arriving instantaneously, and if you get a turn between when they're launched and when they get to where they're going, you can get out of the way. Obviously it isn't quite the same way Diablo lets you act since it's realtime (now, anyway), but it can happen. I think orb of destruction in crawl too? I wish more roguelikes did it more, feels like you have more tactical control that way.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:21
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Harvey Mantaco posted:I think orb of destruction in crawl too? I wish more roguelikes did it more, feels like you have more tactical control that way. Yeah, the Orb of Destruction moves (and unlike TOME projectiles, it tries to home but doesn't corner very well), but it and ball lightning are pretty much the only things that do it; in TOME it's kind of just a thing many projectiles that aren't beams do. There is very little more satisfying than using a short-range teleport to vault over an enemy and let the Orb of Destruction tracking you hit it.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:30
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They're also both kinda kludgy, since they're really just summoned monsters that suicide when they get next to something.
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Dec 6, 2014 22:34
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Prism posted:There is very little more satisfying than using a short-range teleport to vault over an enemy and let the Orb of Destruction tracking you hit it. Playing as a ToME Rogue, being next to a mage, getting to act the same instant they cast a really powerful but slow-moving spell, switching places with them, and watching them get completely pasted by their own projectile. Also good: being a Brawler and using THE POWER OF PUNCHES to dodge a spell, grab its caster, and hurl them bodily into their own spell
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Dec 6, 2014 22:58
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Harvey Mantaco posted:I think orb of destruction in crawl too? I wish more roguelikes did it more, feels like you have more tactical control that way. It's actually kind of odd that DoomRL doesn't do that, given the emphasis on dodging slow moving projectiles in Doom itself.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:12
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Prism posted:There is very little more satisfying than using a short-range teleport to vault over an enemy and let the Orb of Destruction tracking you hit it. This sounds like a game concept to me. Your character has no direct attacks, just mobility techniques (with cooldowns, maybe)...but they're being chased by an all-destroying automaton. You can only kill things by luring the automaton into them.
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Dec 6, 2014 23:15
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There's a PDL with those mechanics, but I can't recall the name of it offhand. Dungeonmans has a lot of player abilities and monster abilities that mess with space and movement in interesting ways. Unfortunately the enemies didn't end up using quite as many time/dodging/things you can react to type attacks as I was hoping it would from earlier alphas, but it feels pretty dynamic compared to a lot of 'bump alphabet' combat systems that are boring as hell in other games (hello Crawl melee).
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Dec 7, 2014 01:24
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Harvey Mantaco posted:Didn't Diablo originally start in pre-production as a turn based game? Thought I read that somewhere. Yep. It originally (if I remember the interview at the back of the Diablo strategy guide correctly, anyways) started out as a very traditional turn-based roguelike, except with graphics and a streamlined UI. There was an ongoing debate over whether to keep it turn-based or make it realtime; eventually someone hacked together a realtime version of the engine to see how it played and after passing that around the office for a bit a new consensus was arrived at to make it realtime. The Cheshire Cat posted:It's actually kind of odd that DoomRL doesn't do that, given the emphasis on dodging slow moving projectiles in Doom itself. DoomRL has its own dodging mechanics -- basically, you get a % chance to dodge by moving laterally before the enemy actually fires, with bonuses for movement speed, the Dodgemaster trait, running, etc. It does feel odd that it doesn't have slow-moving projectiles, but I can kind of see why they did it that way. In Doom proper, you often either have too many projectiles flying at you to dodge them all, or you have projectiles coming at you from multiple directions and can't see all of them to dodge them. In DoomRL the former is very rarely the case and the latter never happens because of the top-down view, so with projectile movement speed you would basically have no excuse for ever getting hit at all except by hitscan enemies.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:10
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  Should be ready for beta of full controller support and holiday content this week! Just a couple little things to tidy up.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:15
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The Cheshire Cat posted:It's actually kind of odd that DoomRL doesn't do that, given the emphasis on dodging slow moving projectiles in Doom itself. It does, they're called 'lost souls'.
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Dec 7, 2014 02:50
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Dropbear posted:It's not like other genres are 100% agreed upon either - both the Legend of Zelda & Monkey Island-series have often been called "adventure games", while obviously being entirely different. the legend of zelda series is clearly and has always been action RPGs with a focus on categorical rather than incremental loot and some puzzles. I think it was only ever called an adventure game because the guy who cooked it up based on his adventures wandering in the woods as a kid.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:00
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andrew smash posted:the legend of zelda series is clearly and has always been action RPGs with a focus on categorical rather than incremental loot and some puzzles. I think it was only ever called an adventure game because the guy who cooked it up based on his adventures wandering in the woods as a kid. Didn't the "action RPG" name not come around until the 90s? People called Zelda an adventure game because the "action RPG" term wasn't a thing yet.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:07
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Zelda is an Action-Adventure game. Now what that specifically means who knows but that is the term that is usually used to describe Zelda and games like Zelda i.e. Jack and Daxter, Rachet and Clank, Metroid, etc.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:12
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Nintendo Kid posted:Didn't the "action RPG" name not come around until the 90s? People called Zelda an adventure game because the "action RPG" term wasn't a thing yet. it didn't, but adventure games did exist then and zelda had essentially nothing in common with them except the fact that specific items were checkpoints on your progression through the game.
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Dec 7, 2014 04:14
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And outside of setting, Zelda has very, very little in common with what would be considered a traditional RPG of the era. Even the things it does have in common are kind of debatable (do heart containers count as leveling up? etc).
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Dec 7, 2014 04:50
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Lunatic Sledge posted:And outside of setting, Zelda has very, very little in common with what would be considered a traditional RPG of the era. Even the things it does have in common are kind of debatable (do heart containers count as leveling up? etc). I would think "getting stronger as you progress" is a better defining element of an rpg than "literally has a number that goes up".
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Dec 7, 2014 04:53
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Jeffrey of YOSPOS posted:I would think "getting stronger as you progress" is a better defining element of an rpg than "literally has a number that goes up". It's a defining element, yeah, though stuff like Alter Beast and Resident Evil are great RPGs if we're rolling off that metric. Zelda also lacks a party system, turn based combat, or pretty much any of the other things that would define an RPG of the time, or barely even define an RPG now, save the setting and the perspective of the gameplay. (Edit: You don't even necessarily get stronger as you progress in Zelda; you could beat all the dungeons and never get better than the wooden sword, accidentally). Defining all the specifics of a genre, any genre, is kind of difficult. Lunatic Sledge fucked around with this message at 05:26 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 05:24
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Unormal posted:
aw yesssss, controller support is something I've kind of been wishing this game had vvv Oh sweet. K. I'll let you know if anything breaks. SpruceZeus fucked around with this message at 05:53 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 05:44
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SpruceZeus posted:aw yesssss, controller support is something I've kind of been wishing this game had If you, or anyone else, would like to help test it out immediately, you can access the latest alpha by putting "sproggiwooddebug" in the password field of the "Betas" tab in the Steam client, and switch to the debug branch. This branch isn't a stable branch like Beta, but it should be stable-ISH, and is usually fairly far ahead of Beta. Currently controller support is completely functionally implemented except for clicking on speech bubbles and doing decoration, though there's still a little polish missing.
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Dec 7, 2014 05:49
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Unormal posted:
The sheep doesn't have a santa hat. 
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Dec 7, 2014 05:52
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How does the 7DRL work? I tried looking at their website but it's completely devoid of information. I'm at a point in programming now that I could probably complete one but I can't find much info on it.
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Dec 7, 2014 10:33
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Lord Windy posted:How does the 7DRL work? I tried looking at their website but it's completely devoid of information. I'm at a point in programming now that I could probably complete one but I can't find much info on it. I think you just have to hit the Register button on this page. e: and then program a roguelike. That part is kinda important.
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Dec 7, 2014 10:49
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RPATDO_LAMD posted:e: and then program a roguelike. That part is kinda important. Pfft, I am just going to rebrand Cataclysm to 'Lord Windy's house of Zombies' and submit. More seriously, I think I might just do my own '7DRL' starting soon. I'm on Holidays so it could be fun.
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Dec 7, 2014 11:02
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Lunatic Sledge posted:It's a defining element, yeah, though stuff like Alter Beast and Resident Evil are great RPGs if we're rolling off that metric. Zelda also lacks a party system, turn based combat, or pretty much any of the other things that would define an RPG of the time, or barely even define an RPG now, save the setting and the perspective of the gameplay. (Edit: You don't even necessarily get stronger as you progress in Zelda; you could beat all the dungeons and never get better than the wooden sword, accidentally). I think power gained through discovery and not conflict is one of the big indicators against RPG and for Adventure.
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Dec 7, 2014 18:40
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