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Koramei posted:This might sometimes be true, particularly in Medieval rather than Renaissance art, but I don't think it would be the norm. Keep in mind, art is one of the main ways visual language is pushed forward. Even if an audience couldn't understand what something was depicting at first, it would become familiar with it over time. One could be surprised how endlessly Renaissance art is paraphrased in modern photography. You're definitely right, first, there's a problem of representing the unknown, but there's also new myths entering the game that are received from a certain perspective. People are able to read more, hear new stories and in turn, tell new stories. Think of epic works from the east, like the Shahname, how they inspire writers and painters. Renaissance itself is proof of how relatively forgotten myths of antiquity spread to a wider audience. E.g. Hegel has documents with people named after roman politicians from the republic era, like Julius Caesar or more strikingly, that the painter picks Alexander's conquests as his theme and establishes the connection to the current fight against the arch enemy from the east, the turks. Maybe the painter even depicts Alexander with the face of his benefactor?
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Dec 6, 2014 21:12
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Baron Porkface posted:What were troop transports like in the age of sail? Did they just put a bunch of fuckers on frigates? Check out all those pictures I post--if it's a big camp or siege scene, it almost always takes place near water and there are always transport boats hanging around in the background.
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Dec 6, 2014 21:20
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Kanine posted:I have a question about tube feeding magazines and how you can't have pointed, centerfire cartridges in them. Theoretically could you just have a rimfire pointed cartridge with the same ballistics as an equivalent centerfire cartridge without the chainfire issue? Historically rimfire cartridges existed alongside centerfire when lever action tube fed rifles were being fielded by various armed forces of the time? How come this isn't a thing? Mostly it has to do with what a giant pain in the rear end rimfire cartridges are to manufacture. The process is a lot more involved and just doesn't scale nearly as well as centerfire does. Second, rimfire is a horrifically unreliable ignition method when compared to centerfire. The tl;dr of how rimfire is produced is that the primer compound is squirted into the base of the cartridge and the cartridge spun to spread the compound throughout the rim after which the propellent is poured into the cartridge. By its very nature this means that there is no good way to tell if the primer is evenly distributed throughout the rim, if it has an even consistency, etc. A primer, on the other hand, is just a squirt of compound in a cup. Quality control for that is as simple as looking at the cup to verity the compound is in there. The mix of ease of manufacture with far, far better reliability is why rimfire has largely gone the way of the dodo in modern firearms. The only reason .22LR has even hung around as a sporting and small game round is its utter ubiquity and the fact that it can be had for dirt cheap. Even then, it's notorious among shooters for being a finnicky bastard of a round and people just accept failure rates far in excess of what they would tolerate with any other cartridge because of how cheap it is. (Well, ideally. Current prices are all kinds of hosed up, but that's a TFR gripe that has to do with current gun industry drama and not a milhist thread issue). There is also a second factor to take into consideration, and that's the fact that rimfire guns tend to wear out a lot faster, especially when issued to people (like your average soldier) who aren't going to take particularly good care of them. Most rimfire designs function by having an off-center firing pin that smooshes the rim of the cartridge against the face of the chamber. Firing the gun with no cartridge in the barrel ("dry firing") causes the firing pin to smack into that face. Eventually this can lead to either the firing pin breaking or the chamber developing a pit where it's been struck repeatedly, and that pit can be enough to let the rim bend rather than smash the primer as it should, which drastically reduces the reliability of the gun. Either scenario - gradually lowered reliability or broken pins - is bad from a military point of view. Centerfire guns avoid the issue entirely by just having a dry-fired gun's firing pin strike nothing but empty air at the mouth of the chamber. More modern rimfire designs have all sorts of little mechanical tricks to make dry fire safe for the gun, but none of that applies to the period you're asking about. JcDent posted:Well, I know it's a Russian rifle, it's just they wrote that some parts might have been around since 1890s. Finnish Nagants are some of the most fascinating arms out there from a historical collecting standpoint precisely because of how many times they've potentially changed service. The earliest parts would have been manufactured for Russia under the Tsars. At the time Finland was part of the Russian Empire. When Finland declared its independence in 1917 it inherited huge stocks of Tsarist small arms and acquired many more through purchase and capture over the next few years. In the years following independence they were desperately short of small arms. To supplement the Russian arms that they inherited they also bought captured WW1 surplus from anyone who was in a position to sell it. The baltic states and cash-strapped young nations that used to be part of Austro-Hungary in particular sold them a bunch of weapons. Rather than simply scrap worn out weapons they would frequently re-build them with either salvaged parts from other worn out weapons or new production parts that they made domestically or bought from foreign companies. For example, Swiss weapon maker SIG produced a large number of Mosin barrels for them in the 20s. This practice continued even after they began their own domestic manufacture of new Mosins and basically became an institutionalized habit. That's how you get those Finnish guns with receivers dating from the 1890s. Maybe it was a gun that was in an Imperial Russian military arsenal in Helsinki since forever, maybe it was one that was captured by the Austro-Hungarians and sold by the Czechs in the 20s. Either way, once it got into a Finnish military supply chain it didn't get out until it was flat out worn the gently caress out and, as it happens, the receivers on bolt action rifles are really resilient things that don't wear out easily. edit: also, I'll just add for anyone with firearms specific questions that we've got a whole forum of friendly gun-nuts on SA, and an entire thread in it for the poor, damaged types who collect old military weapons. There is a wealth of knowledge there as far as the historical and technical details of that small arms trivia. Cyrano4747 fucked around with this message at 21:45 on Dec 6, 2014 |
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Dec 6, 2014 21:42
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Of course, I won't argue that some enterprising Finnish person might have gotten his hands on an early prototype, shot a Russian and passed it down to future generations.
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:What about them? They were used, they worked. I will restate that barring George Silver, no fencing material we have indicates that there was a perceived hierarchy of weapons That's why there's more musketeers than pikemen; although it's a more honorable weapon (which is why the Fendriches go in the middle of the pike on the march and, depending on the formation, in combat) the pike is not as versatile. (That's also why you give your pikemen something else in certain situations, like during a siege; the "sturmpique" has that name for a reason.) I have read interminable period arguments about which is a better weapon, pike or musket, but those aren't fencing manuals and nobody I've read has tried to set up a ranking system or anything. (Besides, there are interminable period arguments about every drat thing. As soon as they invent widespread popular literacy everyone has to tell everyone else their opinions, just shouting into the void like you with your first Geocities page.) Cyrano4747 posted:edit: also, I'll just add for anyone with firearms specific questions that we've got a whole forum of friendly gun-nuts on SA, and an entire thread in it for the poor, damaged types who collect old military weapons. There is a wealth of knowledge there as far as the historical and technical details of that small arms trivia. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 12:11 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 12:08
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Tomn posted:So out of curiosity, when exactly did Medieval/Renaissance/Early Modern Europeans stop thinking of people in the past as being "Exactly like us, down to the clothes they wear"? And why did that start happening? More archeological discoveries? Or did artists like that one KNOW that history wasn't the way it was now, they just wanted to depict a scene that contemporary viewers would recognize and understand? Around the time they stop giving Jesus european features.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:13
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Jesus with European features? Well, during the periods of the initial Germanic conversion to christianity, a popular tool for conversion was the "Heilandlied", which was initially was kind of the bible, but at the North Sea coast, with Jesus as a somewhat less angry Chieftain.
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Dec 7, 2014 12:47
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JaucheCharly posted:Maybe the painter even depicts Alexander with the face of his benefactor? not in this case. https://flic.kr/p/e9qFre Otherwise, though, I think you've pretty much got the right of it
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Dec 7, 2014 20:20
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Can anyone recommend any books on Green Berets and/or Montagnards in Vietnam? Either a been there done that or tactical/strategic wider scope is cool too. I would take any SOG or LRRP type books too.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:36
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Phobophilia posted:Around the time they stop giving Jesus european features. I don't understand why this comes up so much. Have you seen how Jesus is portrayed in Ethiopia, India, China, Korea? Or how about our common perception of what the Buddha looks like compared to the South Asian man he probably was? Of course Jesus wasn't European, but that people are aghast that spiritual figures are portrayed to be familiar to those they're meant for is a little ridiculous.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:56
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Waroduce posted:Can anyone recommend any books on Green Berets and/or Montagnards in Vietnam? Either a been there done that or tactical/strategic wider scope is cool too. I would take any SOG or LRRP type books too. The Green Berets by Robin Moore is actually a good starting point. It was published during the war and despite the fact that it's 'fiction' and the basis for the infamous John Wayne film it's a drat good read. Dude went through the entire Q course before writing it. Obviously there's other more comprehensive accounts but give that one a look.
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Dec 7, 2014 21:58
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Koramei posted:I don't understand why this comes up so much. Have you seen how Jesus is portrayed in Ethiopia, India, China, Korea? Or how about our common perception of what the Buddha looks like compared to the South Asian man he probably was?  chinesus.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:03
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Agean90 posted:
 Black Jesus, ~6th century.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:08
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The miracles that he performs have also been adapted. He chops epic ammounts of wood with knifehands. my dad posted:
More like a real middle eastern Jesus would look like.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:19
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Koramei posted:Of course Jesus wasn't European, but that people are aghast that spiritual figures are portrayed to be familiar to those they're meant for is a little ridiculous. Localizing the Bible was (and is, as translation work continues) always a difficult prospect. For example, how do you explain the idea of 'lion' to pagans living in Nordic tundra? Michael Agricola who first translated the Bible to Finnish language went with 'jalopeura' which means 'a noble deer' or 'a big deer'. It could be that he thought this was a title that should instill fear in locals, or maybe because it was already used for the astrological sign Leo. Another example is orthodox iconographer monks working in the northernmost Russian monasteries. The story of Jesus riding to Jerusalem on a donkey is a tale of the humility of the King of Kings, but donkeys just weren't used in the north so their icons depicted Jesus riding a normal horse.
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Dec 7, 2014 22:21
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Rodrigo Diaz posted:not in this case. https://flic.kr/p/e9qFre Edit: Cyrano, I've been thinking about your question about my subjects' mental states, and it really seems like there's been something wrong with Hieronymus Sebastian Schutze/however you want to spell it since he shot that guy by accident. I mean, when it happened he begged everyone in the room to kill him (they refused), and he flipped out after he hurt Steter a few months later. If he has had something wrong with him mentally for a while, and if others can tell, perhaps Steter attempted to blacken his name because he saw an easy target. This would make Steter's actions far more malicious than the usual hyper-competitive jostling that the adult men in this society do whenever they socialize. Both of these thoughts are conjecture, though. Since neither one describes his mental state or his motivations, we'll never know. Edit 2: Rodrigo Diaz posted:Armor did not make shields obsolete. They persisted through the 16th century (Alonso de Contreras was a paje de rodela) until finally dying out because guns had become so much better and the socket bayonet ended the pike block. Think about that, though. An entire way of war disappears due to the introduction of a single piece of equipment. At least now all your infantry can walk under trees. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 23:48 on Dec 7, 2014 |
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Dec 7, 2014 22:42
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JaucheCharly posted:More like a real middle eastern Jesus would look like. Black anime Jesus has arrived
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Dec 8, 2014 00:20
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Phobophilia posted:Black anime Jesus has arrived Excuse me Coptic Jesus would like to have a word. 
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Dec 8, 2014 00:43
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Korean Jesus don't got time for your poo poo. He's busy. Doin' Korean poo poo.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:02
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Waroduce posted:Can anyone recommend any books on Green Berets and/or Montagnards in Vietnam? Either a been there done that or tactical/strategic wider scope is cool too. I would take any SOG or LRRP type books too. Like Hunterhr said The Green Berets by Robin Moore is a good start. John Plasters books on their involvement in SOG are also really good. Reflections of a Warrior is by Frank Miller who was an SF soldier in SOG and spent 7 years in Vietnam. He's also a Medal of Honor recipient. Gary Linderer wrote several books about LRRP and SF recon units. Larry Chambers' Recondo is another good book about a LRRP unit along with some info about Recondo, the recon school ran by the 5th Special Forces Group. Just about every book about Army Special Forces in Vietnam will also feature Montagnards. Even the SF recon teams in SOG used them.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:07
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The oldest known icon of Christ Pantokrator is not white. Well, depending on your definition of "white." (Encaustic on panel, 6th or 7th c.)
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Dec 8, 2014 01:10
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HEY GAL posted:The oldest known icon of Christ Pantokrator is not white. Well, depending on your definition of "white." It's odd that his face and hands aren't even close to the same color. In fact, when dealing with art this old, is it the same color today it was back then?
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Dec 8, 2014 01:21
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BurningStone posted:It's odd that his face and hands aren't even close to the same color.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:24
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The Chinese one stands out to me because the actual depiction of Jesus doesn't really seem THAT far off from how one might depict Jesus in the West, clothes and all - but everyone else is completely, utterly, 100% Chinese.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:28
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MA-Horus posted:Korean Jesus don't got time for your poo poo. Are the hats Korean or just how they viewed Europeans at the time it was painted?
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Dec 8, 2014 01:40
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They're insanely Korean http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gat_%28hat%29 edit: and his robe is a hanbok, which is also insanely Korean
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Dec 8, 2014 01:43
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MA-Horus posted:Korean Jesus don't got time for your poo poo. Get your poo poo together, Korean Peter.
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Dec 8, 2014 01:46
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So, suppose you are a 17th century commander and you need to inspire courage in your men. What do you say? Times being what they are, Raimondo Montecuccioli (Sulle Battaglie, 1640) divides his advice according to the religion (or lack thereof) of the recipient. To atheists, "If the soul dies with the body, death is desirable, for all suffering will end, and man will be freed from all evil." To true believers, you should say that only the wicked need fear death; the human soul has arisen from the breath of God and will be preserved for eternity only by unification with its source. "Hence most cowardly is the soul which flees peril because of the fear of death, which becomes distressed at the thought of leaving a fleeting and transitory existence for a full and perfect attainment of the benefits of eternity." To your Protestants, you should say that if you believe in predestination you should not fear death at all, since you can do nothing to escape it. I got this from a secondary source so I couldn't inspect this for his thoughts, but he might not know that different Protestants believe different things about predestination, not to mention that he's confused predestination with regards to whether you're saved or damned with a belief in fate. Both Lutherans and all the varieties of Reformed I can think of would be more likely to find this ham-handed and out of place than reassuring, but at least he's making an effort. Moreover, if your people are antsy about the fate of their bodies after death, assure them that "If one is buried upon the battlefield, one feels nothing thereby. The glory of one's name is not impaired. Rather, the historical accounts that describe battles will preserve the memory of a person's life far more durably than will all the marble monuments that could be erected on a tomb." HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 03:55
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How did the labels "central powers" and "axis powers" come to be and were those phrases used in the actual countries?
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Dec 8, 2014 03:57
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Don't forget the black Madonna and black baby Jesus of Montserrat: 
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Dec 8, 2014 04:03
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HEY GAL posted:Moreover, if your people are antsy about the fate of their bodies after death, assure them that "If one is buried upon the battlefield, one feels nothing thereby. The glory of one's name is not impaired. Rather, the historical accounts that describe battles will preserve the memory of a person's life far more durably than will all the marble monuments that could be erected on a tomb." Well, the guy's kind of right. What are the chances that anyone would have given a gently caress about Hieronymus Sebastian and his "buddy" Steter more than 50 years after they croaked if they'd stayed home and been responsible townspeople. Instead they went and chose a life of danger, vice, and poor decisions that has a bunch of internet history geeks talking about them nearly 400 years later.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:15
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Cyrano4747 posted:Well, the guy's kind of right. What are the chances that anyone would have given a gently caress about Hieronymus Sebastian and his "buddy" Steter more than 50 years after they croaked if they'd stayed home and been responsible townspeople. Instead they went and chose a life of danger, vice, and poor decisions that has a bunch of internet history geeks talking about them nearly 400 years later. Edit: Pictured, some people who feel nothing, and whose glory is not currently being harmed:  
HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Dec 8, 2014 |
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Dec 8, 2014 04:26
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Baron Porkface posted:How did the labels "central powers" and "axis powers" come to be and were those phrases used in the actual countries? "Central Powers" was a term in use well before WWI. It came from the Triple Alliance of Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Italy in 1882 (and the earlier Dual Alliance between Germany and A-H of 1879). They were simply strong military and economic powers in the center of Europe, and so the term "Central Powers" became a term to describe the alliance. Wiki says the term axis was first used by Mussolini in 1923 when he stated that "the axis of European history passes through Berlin." It seems to have stuck to any alliance involving Germany after that.
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Dec 8, 2014 04:46
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FAUXTON posted:Don't forget the black Madonna and black baby Jesus of Montserrat: Alright, now I'm really curious about her shoes. They look just like these armoured boots, but it's tough to tell if she's just supposed to be wearing armor all over. Surely this wasn't a normal shoe for a noble type? 
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Dec 8, 2014 05:07
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Yes, it's like a lava lamp.
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HEY GAL posted:To your Protestants, you should say that if you believe in predestination you should not fear death at all, since you can do nothing to escape it. I got this from a secondary source so I couldn't inspect this for his thoughts, but he might not know that different Protestants believe different things about predestination, not to mention that he's confused predestination with regards to whether you're saved or damned with a belief in fate. Both Lutherans and all the varieties of Reformed I can think of would be more likely to find this ham-handed and out of place than reassuring, but at least he's making an effort.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:29
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Arquinsiel posted:This seems to be a sore issue with Protestantism in general, because it leads to Awkward Questions that nobody seems to want to answer.
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Dec 8, 2014 05:31
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PittTheElder posted:Alright, now I'm really curious about her shoes. They look just like these armoured boots, but it's tough to tell if she's just supposed to be wearing armor all over. Surely this wasn't a normal shoe for a noble type? The shape of sabotons (plate defenses for the foot) tends to follow contemporary civilian fashion. 
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Dec 8, 2014 05:52
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HEY GAL posted:And, you know, fifteen minutes before a set piece battle is not the time or the place for Awkward Questions. I mean what do you do, raise your hand in the middle of the block? Somehow I don't think that'd work.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:53
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Mirificus posted:The Madonna looks like they're wearing slightly pointed shoes. Pointed shoes aren't unusual in civilian fashion of the era and they get even pointier in the 15th century. Well what struck me wasn't the point (I've noticed that just seems to be a fashion of period shoes), but the fact that the top of the shoe seems to be layered. That's what made me think of that armoured boot. Contrast it to this example from your wikipedia link (sample size of one!), which is flat on top, and how I'd expect it to be made, just based on ease of manufacture: 
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Dec 8, 2014 07:04
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Arquinsiel posted:"Excuse me sir, but might we delay the battle a while to pick apart the logical inconsistencies in each other's relative belief systems and thereby reduce unit cohesion?" Saxony (as Lutheran as it is possible to get) was allied to/subject to the Emperor until the Edict of Restitution, speaking of Awkward Questions
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Dec 8, 2014 07:09
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HEY GAL posted:Incidentally, I've seen some dudes throw down because of what seemed to have been ethnic conflict, but I haven't seen any religious disputes yet. I bought a new book about the war again (by the Swedish Dick Harrison) and according to his research, soldiers really didn't care for religion at all, especially in dealing with other soldiers. Most religious beefs are what the civilian population occupies themselves with.
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Dec 8, 2014 07:22
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