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Rumda posted:Yeah but when you vote you get people willing to pervert justice just to get elected And when they're appointed they pervert justice for entirely different reasons.
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Dec 8, 2014 00:47
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In any case, we can all agree that justice is perverted.
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Dec 8, 2014 03:12
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TheJoker138 posted:And when they're appointed they pervert justice for entirely different reasons. The idea is that judges should not be taking popular opinion into account when they make decisions, only the law. If you think the people are going to elect a lovely governor who is just going to appoint cronies then that's a problem with the state of democracy right now and solutions can be found in fixing the electoral process and working toward a more informed public. Why would the same electorate that's electing this bigoted, nepotistic governor you are postulating be any better at electing judges?
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Dec 8, 2014 06:31
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MrWilderheap posted:The idea is that judges should not be taking popular opinion into account when they make decisions, only the law. If you think the people are going to elect a lovely governor who is just going to appoint cronies then that's a problem with the state of democracy right now and solutions can be found in fixing the electoral process and working toward a more informed public. Why would the same electorate that's electing this bigoted, nepotistic governor you are postulating be any better at electing judges? They wouldn't. But removing electing judges isn't going to fix anything. The public is the problem, not the basic idea behind the current system. Basically everything is hosed.
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Dec 8, 2014 06:47
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I'm not sure if it's viewable without (free) membership, but the FT has a good article on Serial, touching on what it refers to as the 'moral queasiness' of using real cases for entertainment.
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Dec 8, 2014 09:19
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Red Oktober posted:I'm not sure if it's viewable without (free) membership, but the FT has a good article on Serial, touching on what it refers to as the 'moral queasiness' of using real cases for entertainment. I think the FT is one of those sites that gives you a few free articles a month. It's a fairly smart article and largely absolves Serial itself and looks towards the audience, e.g. Reddit. There's a nice quote at the end too: quote:“I feel like the word for this whole series has been ‘ambiguity’,” says another, 28-year-old Anna Maltby Patil. “The crime was ambiguous, the ‘evidence’ was ambiguous, the characters involved have been ambiguous, everyone’s opinions about the podcast itself have been pretty ambiguous. I think we’ll be able to do a lot of interpretation about that but I don’t know that Sarah is going to provide it for us . . .”
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Dec 8, 2014 10:40
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Nice interview with Adnan's family in the Guardian yesterday: http://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2014/dec/07/serial-adnan-syed-family-podcast-interview
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Dec 8, 2014 11:13
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TheJoker138 posted:They wouldn't. But removing electing judges isn't going to fix anything. The public is the problem, not the basic idea behind the current system. Basically everything is hosed. If the public is the problem then removing them from decisions can only help.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:26
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Make voting compulsory, make judges voted in for life only to be removed by impeachment process. Our entire criminal judicial system hinges on guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. There is so much doubt here that I would like to think I would not have convicted had I been on the jury. but I've never been on a jury so I don't know what it's like having to make those decisions and decipher all the evidence in a small closed room. I hope Adnan get's another trial.
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Dec 8, 2014 11:33
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Dear Prudence posted:Make voting compulsory, make judges voted in for life only to be removed by impeachment process. The other problem with being on a jury is that it severely interferes with your day to day life. I was on one that took 2 days away from me, and that was pretty bad. I can't imagine having to sit on a Jury for multiple weeks. I wonder if that would make someone want to come to a decision as soon as possible.
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Dec 8, 2014 12:52
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Blue Star Error posted:I think this case is a strange example of a miscarriage of justice that happened to get the right guy. loving Bingo
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Dec 8, 2014 15:59
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ElGroucho posted:loving Bingo Nothing, aside from Jay's say so, connects Adnan to the crime and Jay had to give the prosecutor Adnan or else Jay would have his deal revoked and probably be the prosecutor's next target. What makes you certain that Adnan killed Hae?
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Dec 8, 2014 17:33
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MrWilderheap posted:This is mostly due to "tough on crime" politicians who have implemented laws that put in place incredibly long mandatory minimum sentences for trivial offenses. I totally agree but don't confuse broken laws with a broken system. These laws are placed there because this is what the majority of the people with the power want ether for personal gain or misguided attempt at security. Just look at the push for legalization of pot, laws can change and slowly push towards the norm. But ultimately, no matter what system you live under, all legal systems use humans and humans are flawed and make mistakes.
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Dec 8, 2014 17:46
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Yeah but American humans are the most flawed. Not really.
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Dec 8, 2014 21:03
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TheJoker138 posted:They wouldn't. But removing electing judges isn't going to fix anything. The public is the problem, not the basic idea behind the current system. Basically everything is hosed. But there just isn't any compelling reason that judge should be an elected position. The executive and legislators are elected because the public has a right to determine what the laws are and how they should be enforced. But why should public opinion play any role in the court room? The only things that should matter to the judge are the facts of the case and the law itself. Not how their ruling will affect their chances of reelection. Most countries have appointed judges, the US is one of the few places that elects them (on a local level) and I've never heard a good reason why that should be the case.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:21
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MrWilderheap posted:But there just isn't any compelling reason that judge should be an elected position. The executive and legislators are elected because the public has a right to determine what the laws are and how they should be enforced. But why should public opinion play any role in the court room? The only things that should matter to the judge are the facts of the case and the law itself. Not how their ruling will affect their chances of reelection. Most countries have appointed judges, the US is one of the few places that elects them (on a local level) and I've never heard a good reason why that should be the case. It has to do with the conversation between the traditions of common law and society which, in a perfect world, produces lawyers and judges from the same society in which they're elected. The politics is what skews the system, but the Lockean notion of law preceding the state is and our own unique system of law is a good combination with properties of civil law. I mean, it's American as gently caress in all its chaos (which I think can be beautiful at times) and conservative in the sense that it is often behind the times but not prone to radical change overnight. But then I'm not black and in prison based on flimsy evidence.
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Dec 9, 2014 00:39
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Shes Not Impressed posted:It has to do with the conversation between the traditions of common law and society which, in a perfect world, produces lawyers and judges from the same society in which they're elected. The politics is what skews the system, but the Lockean notion of law preceding the state is and our own unique system of law is a good combination with properties of civil law. I mean, it's American as gently caress in all its chaos (which I think can be beautiful at times) and conservative in the sense that it is often behind the times but not prone to radical change overnight. But then I'm not black and in prison based on flimsy evidence. Let local judges be selected by county board supervisors, let DAs be elected as the representation of the people's desires re: law enforcement
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Dec 9, 2014 01:01
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bedpan posted:Nothing, aside from Jay's say so, connects Adnan to the crime and Jay had to give the prosecutor Adnan or else Jay would have his deal revoked and probably be the prosecutor's next target. I can't answer for that guy, but the crucial piece of evidence is that Jay knew where Hae's car was. That proves beyond any doubt that Jay was involved with her death, and we can completely rule out unknown third parties (eg serial killers, sex pests, Mr S etc). I'm not a big fan of the "Jay did it" theories, because as others have pointed out he has no motive (that we've heard on the show, I haven't read any other material), and he'd basically need to be a criminal mastermind to engineer the perfect situation where he has Adnan's phone and car during a tiny window when Adnan has no alibi. I haven't heard anything so far that makes me think that that's the case. Which leaves us with Adnan. Either he killed her alone and enlisted Jay's help afterwards (roughly as per Jay's testimony), or they were both in on it together and Jay later turned on Adnan for unclear reasons (but most likely a guilty conscience). I think the latter is the most likely scenario, based on what we've heard so far. That said. I don't think he should have been convicted on the strength of evidence we've been shown; in my mind there's certainly enough reasonable doubt that he's not guilty. If the burden of proof were lower, and we were looking at the balance of probabilities, I'd be more inclined to say guilty.
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Dec 9, 2014 01:01
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People keep saying he doesn't have an alibi, but doesn't that one woman say she saw him in the library? Maybe it got debunked later on and I just missed it though. Also, I think it's kind of silly to assume that Jay has to be a criminal mastermind to pull this off. People get away with murder all the time, all he really needed was to get lucky, and I think that's what happened. He killed her, got incredibly lucky that Adnan couldn't provide a clear-cut alibi, and he used the fact that he helped testify to skate free of everything.
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Dec 9, 2014 02:40
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Jummy posted:People keep saying he doesn't have an alibi, but doesn't that one woman say she saw him in the library? Maybe it got debunked later on and I just missed it though. Asia claims to have seen him at the library and while I don't think it was debunked she wasn't very sure about it after the fact. It felt a little circumstantial at best. That said, it's criminal that Adnan's attorney didn't follow up with Asia to help his case. Even if Asia did see him at the library they still have the cell phone record to link Adnan to the crime. The call to Nisha shows him and Jay together shortly after the murder and during the time when he was supposedly at track practice. The phone also pinged the cell tower near Leakin park showing that his phone was near the site of Hae's grave the night of the murder. It doesn't prove that Adnan killed Hae but I think it's enough to show that he was more involved than he's letting on.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:06
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Jummy posted:People keep saying he doesn't have an alibi, but doesn't that one woman say she saw him in the library? Maybe it got debunked later on and I just missed it though. I don't remember which episode it was (I think it was The Deal With Jay), but Jay apparently told somebody beforehand a somewhat different version of the story and in that version Hae was killed at the library at about the time Asia (?) saw Adnan there. So the library story only exonerates Adnan according to the version of events that was presented at the trial, which we already know is pretty suspect.
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Dec 9, 2014 03:09
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That was the story told to his friend Chris. In that version, Adnan called him while he was at a pool hall [this is probably another source for rumors that he may have been more involved with Jenn] and it was at the library. Also the Asia alibi really only covers the state's timeline (which is why it would have significantly aided his case). Part of the requirement for Jay being called a 'mastermind' is that he had to have been framing Adnan from the start. These were stories he was telling people fairly early on. It's not just Chris and Jenn, there is also Neighbor Boy. NB claimed what he said didn't happen, but clearly it either did or he heard about it somehow. My guess is it's the latter before he realized that he'd be an accessory if he confirmed it. And again, she was most likely killed by someone who managed to get her and her car away from the crowded school lot without a scene, killed her without a violent struggle, and failed to leave any physical evidence in her car. I don't know if the police could determine it, but it seems likely she was buried the same day she was killed as well, given the snowstorm.
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Dec 9, 2014 04:03
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Am I crazy or was the Asia alibi debunked because she specifically mentioned the type of weather that day way which was completely inaccurate? Like she said it was raining heavily but it was clear all day or something? So she would have been remembering another day.
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Dec 9, 2014 08:45
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Mister Chief posted:Am I crazy or was the Asia alibi debunked because she specifically mentioned the type of weather that day way which was completely inaccurate? Like she said it was raining heavily but it was clear all day or something? So she would have been remembering another day. It was on a blog somewhere but I didn't bookmark it and can't find it now.
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Dec 9, 2014 10:13
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Mister Chief posted:Am I crazy or was the Asia alibi debunked because she specifically mentioned the type of weather that day way which was completely inaccurate? Like she said it was raining heavily but it was clear all day or something? So she would have been remembering another day. Your memory is correct. While not entirely debunking Asia's story, it at least makes it unreliable. Like just about everything else in the case. In fact, about the only uncontested fact in the whole case is that Jay is somehow involved.
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Dec 9, 2014 10:20
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Mister Chief posted:Am I crazy or was the Asia alibi debunked because she specifically mentioned the type of weather that day way which was completely inaccurate? Like she said it was raining heavily but it was clear all day or something? So she would have been remembering another day. http://serialpodcast.org/posts/2014/11/weather-report Basically, her memory of talking to Adnan in the library is specifically tied to the fact that it snowed that night, because her boyfriend was mad at her for doing so and she was then trapped in the house with him all night, which was awkward or something. Problem is, it didn't actually snow that night. School was cancelled the next day due to ice, not snow, and that didn't even start until 4:30 AM on the 14th. While this doesn't disprove her story, it does, like outlier just said, make it more unreliable because the fact that the weather was different than what she said makes it possible that she's remembering a completely different day. On the other hand, ice and snow aren't really all that different (to me, at least  ) especially as she's remembering it 6 weeks and then 14 years after the fact, so it could be nothing.
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Dec 9, 2014 10:26
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ninjahedgehog posted:http://serialpodcast.org/posts/2014/11/weather-report Not even close to as unreliable as Jay saying he saw Hae's body at the strip, or at best buy, or ???.
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Dec 9, 2014 15:24
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The manipulation is apparent to the judge but the exact details do not concern us common folk.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:52
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Watermelon City posted:The manipulation is apparent to the judge but the exact details do not concern us common folk. It feels like it would be improper for him to get into the specifics of the case. I'm surprised he even made that comment, to be honest.
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Dec 9, 2014 20:55
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CottonWolf posted:It feels like it would be improper for him to get into the specifics of the case. I'm surprised he even made that comment, to be honest. It's lovely and unbecoming but also pretty predictable. Jummy posted:People get away with murder all the time, all he really needed was to get lucky, and I think that's what happened. He killed her, got incredibly lucky that Adnan couldn't provide a clear-cut alibi, and he used the fact that he helped testify to skate free of everything. A million times this. The cops served his lucky break on a platter. the yeti fucked around with this message at 22:39 on Dec 9, 2014 |
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Dec 9, 2014 22:35
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I powered through the first five episodes last night knowing nothing about it, rely enjoying the immersive quality, and then when I googled it and found out it was all a real case I felt somewhat guilty about trying to "guess" if he was innocent or not.
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Dec 10, 2014 00:03
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dj_clawson posted:I powered through the first five episodes last night knowing nothing about it, rely enjoying the immersive quality, and then when I googled it and found out it was all a real case I felt somewhat guilty about trying to "guess" if he was innocent or not. How did you listen to five episodes and not know it was a real case?
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Dec 10, 2014 04:26
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Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:How did you listen to five episodes and not know it was a real case? He doesn't pay attention to lyrics.
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Dec 10, 2014 05:23
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Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:How did you listen to five episodes and not know it was a real case? Probably has the same attention to detail that your average juror in this country has. If my life is ever in the hands of a jury I'd sooner just blow my brains out than let 12 brain dead fucks decide my fate. P.S. Not calling the other poster a brain dead gently caress. However they do seem to have horrible deductive powers and no attention to detail. Much like your average juror.
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Dec 10, 2014 16:23
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quote/edit
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Dec 10, 2014 16:25
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Raar_Im_A_Dinosaur posted:How did you listen to five episodes and not know it was a real case? I thought it was a really, really, really excellent radio show.
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Dec 10, 2014 20:16
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Well, the War of the Worlds mystery is solved..
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Dec 11, 2014 00:25
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This may be relevant to goon interests: The Marshall Project Polls Top Trial Lawyers on Adnan's Guilt
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Dec 11, 2014 06:16
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Bitchkrieg posted:This may be relevant to goon interests: The Marshall Project Polls Top Trial Lawyers on Adnan's Guilt quote:And I’ll say, if he’s so virtuous, why’s there such a lack of emotion on his part? In discussing the murder of someone you loved for which you've been unjustly imprisoned for decades, you’d get emotional. This is a girl he dated for a very small amount of time when he was 17 and, honestly, at this point I think it would be really weird if he talked about her like she was the love of his life. I take the "Adnan may in fact have done it but I see zero reason to believe he did beyond the word of a noted liar who is 100% involved in the murder and cover-up." quote:Joseph Sieger, Brooklyn Defender Services
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Dec 11, 2014 07:23
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New episode just dropped. Titled: Rumors, oh poo poo yall
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Dec 11, 2014 11:40
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