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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Also. 'death of the author' really just means the birth of the reader as 'co-author' of a given work. Nobody who hates the prequels actually cares what George Lucas thinks - detailed analysis of his stated political affiliations, religious beliefs (and so-on) simply does not occur. (Or, when it does occur, it invariably supports the reading of the prequels as satirical.) George Lucas is into Eastern mysticism and Buddhism, so he probably doesn't think the Force is just meaningless magic powers that aren't as important as Christ. He's a huge philanthropist so he probably doesn't agree with your idea that charity's just a band-aid or distraction from systemic problems. Nothing he's said or done has suggested he's an anticapitalist, much less a radical Christian one. So no, his biography doesn't support your satirical reading.
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Dec 17, 2014 10:49
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:"Esoteria [sic] for the individual" is oxymoronic. the individual is the smallest of groups and is obviously what i was talking about. "seeing little slivers of truth no one else can" SuperMechagodzilla posted:Also. 'death of the author' really just means the birth of the reader as 'co-author' of a given work. exactly my point about the personal bias/wish fulfillment, so...? SuperMechagodzilla posted:Nobody who hates the prequels I don't hate the prequels and don't think I've ever said I have. SuperMechagodzilla posted:there are few things more pretentious than misusing 'big words' and other terminology to put yourself in a position of false authority I never once used a word incorrectly. "SuperMechagodzilla posted:Altogether, your post is bad - whether you intended for it to be or not. No, it was pretty good. Sorry, Hoss.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:01
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Jewel Repetition posted:George Lucas is into Eastern mysticism and Buddhism, so he probably doesn't think the Force is just meaningless magic powers that aren't as important as Christ. He's a huge philanthropist so he probably doesn't agree with your idea that charity's just a band-aid or distraction from systemic problems. Nothing he's said or done has suggested he's an anticapitalist, much less a radical Christian one. George Lucas is a self-described "Buddhist Methodist" - as in Methodist Christianity. Lucas has also stated that he is "a very ardent believer in democracy, not capitalist democracy. " Rando posted:the individual is the smallest of groups No, it really is not.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:14
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:George Lucas is a self-described "Buddhist Methodist" - as in Methodist Christianity. As in white guy cultural tourist who still likes the comforts of what he grew up with, not radical Zizek community of believers thing. Your version of Christianity would be unrecognizable to most people who self-describe as Christians. SuperMechagodzilla posted:Lucas has also stated that he is "a very ardent believer in democracy, not capitalist democracy. " That's interesting, I didn't know he was public about his political beliefs. But the rest of what he says in that interview puts him at center-left, not far-left.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:30
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Jewel Repetition posted:Your version of Christianity would be unrecognizable to most people who self-describe as Christians. That's the entire history of Christianity.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:33
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Jewel Repetition posted:As in white guy cultural tourist who still likes the comforts of what he grew up with, not radical Zizek community of believers thing. Your version of Christianity would be unrecognizable to most people who self-describe as Christians. You're conflating my redemptive (re-)interpretation of Star Wars with the much more basic observation that the prequels are satirical.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:36
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:
Um, yes it is.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:37
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Rando posted:Um, yes it is. You cannot initiate yourself into a one-person group by giving yourself access to knowledge that you've hidden from yourself. You are bad at communication.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:41
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You cannot initiate yourself into a one-person group by giving yourself access to knowledge that you've hidden from yourself. You are bad at communication. No, one would be discovering knowledge previously hidden from one's self through fate or whatever. I'd like to hear from anyone else that thinks what I was trying to say was difficult to understand.
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Dec 17, 2014 11:48
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You're conflating my redemptive (re-)interpretation of Star Wars with the much more basic observation that the prequels are satirical. No I'm not. The prequels are satirical, but it's an obvious tragic satire ("this is how democracy dies" etc) not the really complex thing you're ascribing to it.
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Dec 17, 2014 12:01
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:You cannot initiate yourself into a one-person group by giving yourself access to knowledge that you've hidden from yourself. You are bad at communication. were you the child that told alec guinness you'd seen star wars over a hundred times
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Dec 17, 2014 12:18
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Raxivace posted:What do you guys think Vader would ask Santa to bring him for Christmas? An iPadme.
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Dec 17, 2014 12:43
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Bongo Bill posted:Vader wanted to force people to get along. He stood for peace and justice. Not quite the same as freedom. Cnut the Great posted:If you take the film at face value, he sold out because he became convinced that the Jedi's motivations and methods were ultimately no better than the Sith's, and so he decided he might as well side with the guy who at least offered him a chance to save his wife. But he did genuinely believe the Jedi to be hypocritical and corrupt. He also genuinely believed Palpatine to be hypocritical and corrupt. Well this is one of the big problems with the prequels; we don't get to know Anakin very well. The formative periods in his life; his Jedi training and his years in the Clone Wars, are not really shown. We get a snippet of him as a kid, him after his training but before the clone wars, and him in the last weeks of the clone wars. We can sort of infer that he's more attached to the clones than Obi-Wan and the rest of the Jedi but we don't see him interact with them much. We can infer that he's against slavery and might harbor some enmity for the Jedi and Republic for not wiping it out in the rim worlds. We can infer that by being stuck between Palpatine and his Jedi colleagues that he's come to see the hypocrisy of the Jedi more clearly than others. But all we really get from him is that he likes Padme, he resents Obi-Wan for holding him back in sort of nebulous terms, and he has doubts about democracy. Oh and he hates sand and wishes his mother were still alive, even though he apparently never visited or attempted to contact her in a 10-12 year period. Anakin's mental state seems to undergo a sharp decline right around the climax. In one scene he's reporting Palpatine to Master Windu and is prepared to help apprehend him. He wants Palpatine alive for personal reasons, i.e. saving Padme, but he still has goals that make sense and takes rational actions to further those goals. In the next scene he's on his knees pledging allegiance to a man he was ready to arrest a few minutes ago. (And will be ready to overthrow in a few hours apparently?) The purge of the Jedi Temple makes less sense; is he trying to escape punishment for his crime? Trying to protect Palpatine and by extension Padme? Why, then, kill harmless children who are neither a physical nor political threat? His actions here make less sense as the sane but personally compromised man we've seen up to now; they're not very rational. He does things that don't seem to further his immediate goals and that are out of character to boot. It's pretty obvious why though; he's wearing EVIL brandTM contact lenses that mean he is very bad and crazy now. And indeed, his actions are bad and increasingly crazy. By the time Padme confronts him on Mustafar he's swinging wildly between rage and manic joy. I mean, he suggests to Padme that she rule the galaxy at his side; his wife, the senator who has opposed his authoritarian politics from the day they met. He's mentally disturbed. His conversation with Obi-Wan is similarly rambling and irrational. He can't muster any of the arguments or accusations that we might expect and doesn't even seem to be addressing Obi-Wan the whole time. He shouts at no one in particular about peace, freedom and justice as Obi-Wan, behind his back, checks the unconscious Padme that Anakin has apparently forgotten about in the last 10 seconds. He's nuts. Obi-Wan doesn't waste much time trying to talk to him. (Although his dialog is pretty lame too.) I mean, maybe the blocking with Anakin's back to Obi-Wan is supposed to symbolize rejection (no duh he just killed a zillion Jedi) but it makes him look spaced out and crazy especially since he's just finished delivering diatribes to Padme and Obi-Wan that barely make any sense. And then the contact lenses come back and he attacks. So we're left with the unsatisfying conclusion that Darth Vader, a guy who we might infer has many reasons to resent the Jedi and the Republic despite being a rising star within the Order and the Republic Army, turned on and destroyed the Jedi and Republic because he gave in to the dark side and the dark side makes you loving crazy. And to circle back around to the original point, we kind of still don't know Vader's opinions about the Jedi and the Republic very clearly, because when we meet him he's either a kid with no political opinions, a mopey teenager with few opinions beyond sex is good, my step-dad is lame and a vague authoritarian bent, and an adult who seems like he might have some interesting opinions due to his difficult political position but who descends into insanity right when he might start giving his unfiltered opinion. In the end the only evidence we have for Anakin's political opinions are what we can infer from his past, his brooding and sniping, and a single confused and delirious rant. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 14:27 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 13:04
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Arglebargle III posted:And to circle back around to the original point, we kind of still don't know Vader's opinions about the Jedi and the Republic very clearly, because when we meet him he's either a kid with no political opinions, a mopey teenager with few opinions beyond sex is good, my step-dad is lame and a vague authoritarian bent, and an adult who seems like he might have some interesting opinions due to his difficult political position but who descends into insanity right when he might start giving his unfiltered opinion. In the end the only evidence we have for Anakin's political opinions are what we can infer from his past, his brooding and sniping, and a single confused and delirious rant. He does imagine that the Jedi should be freeing slaves as a child. But doesn't actually do much anything about that. He's more occupied with being a Jedi and then being a soldier.
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Dec 17, 2014 13:26
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Jewel Repetition posted:No I'm not. The prequels are satirical, but it's an obvious tragic satire ("this is how democracy dies" etc) not the really complex thing you're ascribing to it. I am not ascribing, and the interpretation I've performed is not terribly complex. Rando posted:No, one would be discovering knowledge previously hidden from one's self through fate or whatever. I'd like to hear from anyone else that thinks what I was trying to say was difficult to understand. You sound crazy because you are saying (to the extent that I can parse your writing) that: Art can only be meaningfully consumed by 'the community', and only if 'the community' assumes that art contains an encoded message of 'emotional/conceptual truth' sent to it from 'the author'. Individuals who disagree with 'the community' are not decoding 'the message', but merely decoding 'fate'/'coincidence'. Because 'the message' is not intended for individuals, anything that only an individual can perceive is not 'the message'. 'The message' is encoded through deliberate craftsmanship, which is 'the grammar of the universal language.' Deliberate craftmanship can only be identified by 'everyone', because individuals can only perceive 'slivers of truth' and are therefore 'esotericist' - unless they act as part of 'the community' to push 'the community' towards achieving a perfect understanding of the artist's mind. In other words: art interpretation as crowdsourced telepathy. SuperMechagodzilla fucked around with this message at 13:59 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 13:45
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PeterWeller posted:It's especially disingenuous because what causes the civil war isn't the Trade Federation's blockade of Naboo; it's the Jedi's invasion of Geonosis with their secret clone armies. You can't assume they continued to be aggressive after Naboo because they knew they had suffered from the schemes of a Sith. And I'm sorry you don't understand concepts like guilt and redemption as they apply to the tragic figure at the center of a six part space drama. I wonder where the droid armies the Separatists used came from? The separatists, who were beginning to rebel and separate from the Republic before the events on Geonosis happened. It's very obvious what level of commitment the TF had from when they started hostilities (under Palpatine's command) to when they continued to supply and wage it (under Palpatine and Dooku's commands). Not to mention the whole Death Star thing. Also, I wonder how guilty Vader was feeling at the time he sliced off the head of kid number 50? His redemptive act isn't going to happen for a while. quote:I'd like to hear from anyone else that thinks what I was trying to say was difficult to understand. Not really, no. RBA Starblade fucked around with this message at 14:07 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 14:05
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The ruins in the swamp are clearly an allusion to Colonel Kurtz's hideout in 'Apocalypse Now'. Vietnam War references are definitely intentional.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:13
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McDowell posted:The ruins in the swamp are clearly an allusion to Colonel Kurtz's hideout in 'Apocalypse Now'. Vietnam War references are definitely intentional. Are they? I'm not doubting you but I just didn't notice that. I'd love to see some shot comparisons, that would be really interesting. I watched Apocalypse Now for the first time this year, Kurtz hideout is a pretty amazing location.
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Dec 17, 2014 16:18
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I understood what Rando meant. I don't necessarily agree that a single person can constitute a community but it's equally ridiculous to say esoterica can only come from a community.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:05
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computer parts posted:That's because the Jedi quite clearly started out nobly and were only corrupted by their integration with the Republic's bureaucracy. All we are told about the Jedi Order is that they have been the guardians of peace and justice in the Old Republic for a thousand (generations/years). Yoda also plainly states that there has not been a Sith threat for a thousand years. If that's the case, it's a stretch to say they were "corrupted" by integration with the Republic's bureaucracy -- they've evidently been doing just fine for millennia. Their greatest flaw was complacency, not corruption.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:38
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And the idea that they were complacent or corrupted is muddied by the oft-repeated idea that Palpatine is "clouding their minds with the force" to make every single character stupid enough to let his plan work. It's just another way the prequels can't seem to decide what story they're telling.
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Dec 17, 2014 17:49
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Lurdiak posted:And the idea that they were complacent or corrupted is muddied by the oft-repeated idea that Palpatine is "clouding their minds with the force" to make every single character stupid enough to let his plan work. The idea that Palpatine is clouding their minds with the force is brought up only in episode II though. We can assume he was doing that even before, but the Jedi only become aware of that in AOTC when Mace tells Yoda that they should inform the senate that their ability to use the force has diminished or something. In AOTC we see the Jedi start acting downright stupid by taking command of the clone army and effectively starting the clone wars. The idea that the ways of the Jedi order are questionable is present in TPM before any force mind-clouding is introduced. I also don't think it's clearly established that it's Palpatine who is weakening the Jedi. We could argue that they themselves are losing their connection with the force by acting wrongly. I believe the ROTS novelization does support the idea that it's just Palpatine clouding their minds though.
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Dec 17, 2014 18:12
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Captain Jesus posted:In AOTC we see the Jedi start acting downright stupid by taking command of the clone army and effectively starting the clone wars. Obi-Wan tracks Jango Fett to Geonosis and learns that the Trade Federation + Dooku are behind the Separatist movement, that one of their leaders tried to assassinate Amidala, and that they have built a new droid army in violation of the treaty from TPM. A Jedi strike force then arrives to rescue Kenobi and investigate. The Clone Army doesn't arrive until after Palpatine is given emergency powers and orders an fullblown invasion. Palpatine is able to start the Clone Wars because the Trade Federation has violated its treaty and built a new army. e. I agree though that it would have been more compelling if the Jedi started the war, just like it would have been more compelling if they were actually corrupted and not just doing what they've always done. unlimited shrimp fucked around with this message at 18:39 on Dec 17, 2014 |
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Dec 17, 2014 18:34
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Lurdiak posted:And the idea that they were complacent or corrupted is muddied by the oft-repeated idea that Palpatine is "clouding their minds with the force" to make every single character stupid enough to let his plan work. I don't recall it being explicit that it was Palatine clouding their vision. Could be wrong. Also, it's not necessarily true even if the Jedi think so. Makes more sense that the dark side clouding everything is the Jedis own dark side, their own foolish attachment to the Republic and dogma. I'll have to rewatch to confirm though.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:08
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When I fist watched it I thought it was Palps clouding their vision, but on rewatch it seemed pretty clear the Jedi's own corruption was causing them to not see the future or whatever. IIRC they never directly say it is Sidious.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:10
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unlimited shrimp posted:The Jedi don't start the Clone Wars. Fair enough. I forgot it's Palpatine who orders the clone attack. The Jedi still lead the attack on Geonosis though. I don't think we can say they are doing what they've always done because it's the first time we see the Jedi (the guardians of peace and justice) lead an army to a battle. It would seem more appropriate for the Jedi to try to prevent the war rather than to jump right in.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:13
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Raxivace posted:I'm curious to hear how you think you don't have to subscribe to some form of DotA to think that a work can mean or less than its author intended when that's part of what I've understood DotA to mean. By subscribing to one of the many other critical frames that do so, like Psychoanalysis or New Criticism or Fish's Reader Response or just plain old Rhetorical Criticism. The Intentional Fallacy predates Barthes essay by nearly half a century. RBA Starblade posted:I wonder where the droid armies the Separatists used came from? The separatists, who were beginning to rebel and separate from the Republic before the events on Geonosis happened. It's very obvious what level of commitment the TF had from when they started hostilities (under Palpatine's command) to when they continued to supply and wage it (under Palpatine and Dooku's commands). Not to mention the whole Death Star thing. Also, I wonder how guilty Vader was feeling at the time he sliced off the head of kid number 50? His redemptive act isn't going to happen for a while. The droid armies came from Geonosis. You saw them getting made. The Republic could have let those systems secede instead of starting a war to prevent them from doing so. It's clear the Trade Federation's level of commitment wavers from the Naboo incident onward. They go from principles to subordinates. They clearly just want a peaceful settlement to hostilities when Vader arrives on Mustafar. I bet Anakin felt pretty terrible about what he did. He's not in the best of places emotionally at the end of Ep3.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:14
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Lunatic Pathos posted:I don't recall it being explicit that it was Palatine clouding their vision. Could be wrong. Also, it's not necessarily true even if the Jedi think so. Makes more sense that the dark side clouding everything is the Jedis own dark side, their own foolish attachment to the Republic and dogma. That makes a lot more sense than Palpatine perpetually using the force to not only affect how the Jedi can use it, but making it so nobody realizes he's the one doing all of the manipulation. It always seemed weird that people like Yoda were always concerned with Jedi going to the dark side, despite saying there hadn't been a Sith in "a thousand years".
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Dec 17, 2014 19:20
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PeterWeller posted:The droid armies came from Geonosis. You saw them getting made. The Republic could have let those systems secede instead of starting a war to prevent them from doing so. It's clear the Trade Federation's level of commitment wavers from the Naboo incident onward. They go from principles to subordinates. They clearly just want a peaceful settlement to hostilities when Vader arrives on Mustafar. I bet Anakin felt pretty terrible about what he did. He's not in the best of places emotionally at the end of Ep3. quote:Obi-Wan tracks Jango Fett to Geonosis and learns that the Trade Federation + Dooku are behind the Separatist movement, that one of their leaders tried to assassinate Amidala, and that they have built a new droid army in violation of the treaty from TPM. A Jedi strike force then arrives to rescue Kenobi and investigate. The Clone Army doesn't arrive until after Palpatine is given emergency powers and orders an fullblown invasion. Though you're right that they're willing to capitulate by the end of Episode 3. Actually, I kind of wonder what happened to the TF by the time the original trilogy takes place. quote:I bet Anakin felt pretty terrible about what he did. He's not in the best of places emotionally at the end of Ep3. If he does, we never see it. At least for the child murder anyway.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:24
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HIJK posted:I understood what Rando meant. I don't necessarily agree that a single person can constitute a community but it's equally ridiculous to say esoterica can only come from a community. Relating only to a small group or "community" is literally the definition of esoteric.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:30
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RBA Starblade posted:Though you're right that they're willing to capitulate by the end of Episode 3. Actually, I kind of wonder what happened to the TF by the time the original trilogy takes place. But the Trade Federation isn't really behind the Seperatist Movement. They're clearly a pawn of Sidious still, and they are but one faction involved by that point. And all of this is ancillary to the point: the Jedi and their clones just attack without preamble or parley. You see him as an emotional wreck from the point where he betrays Windu to the point where he destroys Palps' lab.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:35
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RBA Starblade posted:If he does, we never see it. At least for the child murder anyway. Which ones, the Jedi or the sand people. Zing.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:36
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Szmitten posted:Which ones, the Jedi or the sand people. You actually catch a glimpse of Anakin killing Jedi kids in the security footage Obiwan and Yoda watch. It's pretty messed up. He has one kid in a choke hold he is using as a human shield.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:43
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wyoming posted:Relating only to a small group or "community" is literally the definition of esoteric. Well, you say that.  Technically it's about initiating members of secret societies into precious knowledge. I'm more interested in the "private, secret, confidential" part.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:44
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PeterWeller posted:But the Trade Federation isn't really behind the Seperatist Movement. They're clearly a pawn of Sidious still, and they are but one faction involved by that point. And all of this is ancillary to the point: the Jedi and their clones just attack without preamble or parley. I really wish that we got to see Vader post-breakdown in episode 3. The last we see of Anakin/Vader in Ep 3 is that scene in the lab where he's still an emotional wreck - we never see the change happen where he recovers from that, hardens up, and becomes the fearsome monster who chokes his own subordinates and tortures people in cold blood we know from the original trilogy. One of the few things we knew about Vader's past before the prequels came out is that he hunted down and exterminated the Jedi, yet in episode 3 the only Jedi we see him kill are the children in the temple. Everyone else is taken out by the Clones. It kills me that we never got to see a newly minted Darth Vader in full costume kicking rear end in the movie. Instead we got a rushed ending that neatly puts everything in the condition it was in at the beginning of ANH in a span of 10 minutes.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:49
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Lurdiak posted:Analyzing the 6 films as if they were conceived of in order isn't very flattering to the narrative, because Lucas was changing his mind about poo poo even during the production of the prequels. He was changing his mind during the production of the OT too.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:57
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I wasn't being literal with my use of the word esoteric.
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Dec 17, 2014 19:57
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PeterWeller posted:You actually catch a glimpse of Anakin killing Jedi kids in the security footage Obiwan and Yoda watch. It's pretty messed up. He has one kid in a choke hold he is using as a human shield. Can I get a screengrab of this?
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Dec 17, 2014 20:05
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hiddenriverninja posted:Can I get a screengrab of this?  Doesn't look like kids though.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:12
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I doubt the general way laser swords hurt people is something they could get away with showing happening to kids on screen without being rated R.
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Dec 17, 2014 20:14
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