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You know, even if you grant Strange his logic (which is a leap), that Batman's extreme methods create the enemy, the solution to that is not 'So let us become more extreme!'
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Dec 19, 2014 09:06
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This is sort of Batman's problem, it's not just that he wont kill, but he wont let others kill for him. I mean he went down to save Ra's after Ra's killed all those people and Strange. And he wanted to help Strange. But then again, it's kind of really relieving to think the guy cares so much about life, that he'll even try to save the worst of them. It just typically has horrible consequences because Comic book Writers have no scale.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:07
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I really have to wonder if Rocksteady shifted the focus from Hugo Strange to Joker at the last minute for Mark Hamill's retirement, or if things were always planned to be this way. I mean, Hugo Strange being defeated is not the main focus of the game. It's an afterthought. His boss is a guy we've already beaten hours ago. His plan could've been thwarted in about half an hour if Batman hadn't gotten distracted by Joker, a fact made all the more embarrassing when you consider that the helicopters wouldn't have even been attacking Batman at any point earlier in the game. I'm also rather curious as to how Hugo Strange planned to make more Arkham Cities when his whole M.O. was "Give criminals guns, tell the people who funded me that I am grossly incompetent, and violently murder everyone. Rinse, repeat." Like, seriously, even with Ra's backing, that seems like a tall order to get approved more than once. Then again, Ra's never had faith in the plan to begin with considering that he tries to get Batman to replace him earlier in the game, which would've made Bruce Strange's boss.  Really, the only thing Strange accomplishes is killing a bunch of mooks and providing the setting for the game. Rather disappointing for a guy who seemed to have so much presence and leverage over the criminals in the interview tapes. That being said, I absolutely adore the Protocol 10 segment. Gliding through the city while the Arkham City theme plays and trying to avoid the missile strikes is really great. As is ascending Wonder Tower. I just wish there was a boss fight with Strange. I mean, imagine getting to the top floor of Wonder Tower and seeing this 
Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 09:15 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 09:08
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Onmi posted:This is sort of Batman's problem, it's not just that he wont kill, but he wont let others kill for him. I mean he went down to save Ra's after Ra's killed all those people and Strange. And he wanted to help Strange. But then again, it's kind of really relieving to think the guy cares so much about life, that he'll even try to save the worst of them. It just typically has horrible consequences because Comic book Writers have no scale. I've come to realize over the course of watching these LPs and playing these games the problem is not really Batman's Don't Kill Rule, it's that it seems to be the main drama button any of his writers hammer on, constantly. It has the effect of making what should be an admirable character trait (A man who is devoted to the idea that in the process of aiding in enforcing the law he should leave justice to the courts, not a pistol) seem like a character flaw. There's also, as we've discussed, the total lack of effective containment and rehabilitation, which is again, a function of Batman existing in a comic setting and thus there being no way to conclusively end anyone's story. The writers constantly presenting him with increasingly absurd situations while going 'Well! You sure want to murder someone now, I guess, don't you? And wouldn't it be so easy!? GET TO MURDERING BUT YOU CAN'T' and him constantly being confronted by characters whose ridiculous objective is not just 'I wish to kill the Joker' but rather 'I wish to FORCE BATMAN TO DO IT' just drains all the interest out of the setup.
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Dec 19, 2014 09:21
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Oh, as a side note, one of the tie-in comics for Arkham Unhinged mentions that Hugo Strange had a Protocol 9 in execution at the same time as Protocol 10, Protocol 9 being an attack on the Batcave that was thwarted by Robin and Nightwing. Of course, Robin was supposed to be out checking the hospitals and Dick should've been helping if he was there, so I doubt it's canon.
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Dec 19, 2014 10:28
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And this is why I hate Strange's plan so much. Let's go over Strange's plan, here. Step 1: Buy Quincy Sharp off, use mind control to make him compliant, and then turn him into the mayor. Step 2: Use Sharp's power to get authorization to seal off an entire section of the city as an unmonitored, Escape From New York style prison city. Step 3: Funnel weapons to all the prisoners and pit them against each other in wars to create the illusion he's completely lost all control of said prison. Step 4: Begin illegally grabbing people off the street and imprisoning them, with no actual authority to make arrests or detain people who haven't been convicted and sentenced to his prison by a court. Up to and including high-profile activists, reporters, and politicians. In broad daylight, in front of cameras. Step 5: Use his complete and utter failure to control the prison city as an excuse to activate a protocol nobody ever thought would have to be used, which is basically a self-destruct of the entire prison city. Step 6: Everybody will be so impressed by his total disregard for the laws, and absolute ineptitude at running Arkham City, that they'll let him set up similar prison cities based on it, all over the world. Which, presumably, he will also totally fail to control and then burn down. You are the worst at plans, Strange. The worst that ever was.
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Dec 19, 2014 11:37
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Keystone City's where the Flash is fro-oh christ, you look it up like five seconds after I started writing it. Christ now I feel like an idiot.
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Dec 19, 2014 11:46
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Also, keep in mind that he threw the guy who let him get permission for all of this into Arkham City. I'm pretty sure Ra's just let him do the Arkham City plan to see if he'd be able to nuke some of Batman's more troublesome supervillains. Another thing I want to know: how did Strange get permission to enact Protocol 10 given that he quite publicly abducted a number of high profile people from Bruce Wayne to Quincy Sharp? Gothsheep posted:Well, it did get one of them! I'd only ever heard of him from BTAS and The Batman. He was very impressive in the latter. In the former, he finds out that Bruce Wayne is Batman by probing his mind in a therapy session and planning to auction off the information to some supervillains. The villains in question were Joker, Two-Face, and Penguin... who are all important characters in this game, come to think of it.  While Batman is able to keep his identity secret and trick Strange into thinking that Bruce Wayne isn't Batman, Strange is implied to have later realized it was a trick and gives information on his identity over to Cadmus. Blueberry Pancakes fucked around with this message at 11:59 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 11:50
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:I'm pretty sure Ra's just let him do the Arkham City plan to see if he'd be able to nuke some of Batman's more troublesome supervillains. Well, it did get one of them!  Actually I don't know if I'd call Strange a 'troublesome villain'. I'd literally never heard of him prior to this game.
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Dec 19, 2014 11:55
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Gothsheep posted:You are the worst at plans, Strange. The worst that ever was. You're always commencing, stop with the commencing, just do it. I really don't get it either. Just lie about the weapons and the utter, complete failure and just execute everyone the minute they turn the corner and ask for a missile strike on an empty city if you really need to. "Yep, everything's horrible here - padapadapdapdapda. Can't leave my office with all the GUNS firing -pewpewpewpew. MY GOD THEY'VE GOT A DINOSAUR - raaaaawr. Please let me level the city with air to surface missiles, kthxbai"
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Dec 19, 2014 12:07
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So in other words, batman is an allegory for gun control. Ras totally just tried to Yoshimitsu batman to death.
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Dec 19, 2014 12:14
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FeyerbrandX posted:You're always commencing, stop with the commencing, just do it.  SCIENCE SAYS THEY ARE PROTO-BIRDS SO IT FITS HIS THEME
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Dec 19, 2014 13:32
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:That being said, I absolutely adore the Protocol 10 segment. Gliding through the city while the Arkham City theme plays and trying to avoid the missile strikes is really great. As is ascending Wonder Tower. I just wish there was a boss fight with Strange. I mean, imagine getting to the top floor of Wonder Tower and seeing this I'm with you there. Dude's ripped, combat trained, and thinks he's a better batman- it would have been amazing if he countered that punch as the start of a boss fight. They could have even made it similar to Freeze's, except instead of doing all the different stealth takedowns you would have to use all of your combat gadgets and combos.
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Dec 19, 2014 13:42
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Okay, so the point where you deal with Ras? Storywise, the game should've ended right there. Don't get me wrong, the upcoming bossfight is pretty drat great, but Joker just feels so shoehorned in here, even with the cure plotline. He just politely waits until you're done saving the city and then pops up for a final showdown. I think they just had this idea that the game simply has to end with Joker since he's Joker, right? Well gently caress that. Not sure how many other players/batfans/whatnot feel the same but there's way too much Joker in the first two games. At this point, he's just boring. He's been given too much time in the spotlight, you're not expecting anything (I know it's kind of the point, I played the game. Doesn't change the fact this feels stupid as hell.), you just foiled a supervillain and look, it's the clown again. Of course, then the third game does exactly the same thing with Bane. And that's even more of a shame because it's got a great villain gallery, they just choose to run with the least interesting ones.
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Dec 19, 2014 13:44
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About the proud chopper pilot, it's actually a pretty common thing in the real world, especially for gunship gunners. It's both easier to distance yourself from "Hey I just ended 20 peoples lives" when you're at a long range, and being proud that you're doing your job well also works as a coping mechanism.
Nalesh fucked around with this message at 14:42 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 14:27
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I'd say Joker was fine as the main villain in Asylum. Asylum was the focus on all of the madness, and Joker is Batman's chief rogue. It makes sense they'd have him come to the forefront. I just wish that game had more villains, even though I feel like all of them were presented reasonably well (aside from Bane).
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Dec 19, 2014 15:37
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Nalesh posted:About the proud chopper pilot, it's actually a pretty common thing in the real world, especially for gunship gunners. It's both easier to distance yourself from "Hey I just ended 20 peoples lives" when you're at a long range, and being proud that you're doing your job well also works as a coping mechanism. At the risk of opening a can of worms, just remember that one video of those pilots who gunned down a group of journalists, and then the van-full of people who tried to help them in Iraq.
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Dec 19, 2014 15:52
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apostateCourier posted:I'm with you there. Dude's ripped, combat trained, and thinks he's a better batman- it would have been amazing if he countered that punch as the start of a boss fight. They could have even made it similar to Freeze's, except instead of doing all the different stealth takedowns you would have to use all of your combat gadgets and combos.  EDIT: Hobgoblin2099 posted:I'd only ever heard of him from BTAS and The Batman. He was very impressive in the latter.  That's right, Hugo Strange is the one in a million: the supervillain who will knock out the hero, then just take off the hero's mask and immediately have a look. Because really, why not? Drakyn fucked around with this message at 16:35 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 16:27
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He really is a genius.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:39
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No, no, you're missing the point of Strange's plan: as far as Gotham City Council is concerned, he didn't lose control of Arkham City - even though the inmates have managed to arm themselves, he had a protocol for just the occasion, thus preventing them for spilling into city proper. And I'm sure he could've spinned the inadequate security measures (which led to inmates having weapons in the first place) as Sharp/Penguin's fault. The prison cities at Metropolis and Keystone would be much better protected, you see Oh, and you've missed something, Scruffy: during Protocol 10, there's a group of thugs inside sewers hiding from the helicopters that you can talk to  Have you noticed that Gotham City has not one, not two, but three lighthouses? One is located on the Arkham Island, and the other two are south of the Wonder Tower, one the other side of the river, surrounded by tall buildings (and, as Wonder Tower plaque shows, that was the case even when Gotham City didn't had all those skyscrapers around).
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Dec 19, 2014 16:42
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Nice of him to comb Bruce Wayne's hair for him after taking his mask though.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:43
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Kazeite posted:No, no, you're missing the point of Strange's plan: as far as Gotham City Council is concerned, he didn't lose control of Arkham City - even though the inmates have managed to arm themselves, he had a protocol for just the occasion, thus preventing them for spilling into city proper. And I'm sure he could've spinned the inadequate security measures (which led to inmates having weapons in the first place) as Sharp/Penguin's fault. The prison cities at Metropolis and Keystone would be much better protected, you see What about all of the innocent people that disagreed with him and just conveniently happened to be nuked on the exact same night that Protocol 10 needed to be executed?
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Dec 19, 2014 16:51
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Night10194 posted:I've come to realize over the course of watching these LPs and playing these games the problem is not really Batman's Don't Kill Rule, it's that it seems to be the main drama button any of his writers hammer on, constantly. It has the effect of making what should be an admirable character trait (A man who is devoted to the idea that in the process of aiding in enforcing the law he should leave justice to the courts, not a pistol) seem like a character flaw. There's also, as we've discussed, the total lack of effective containment and rehabilitation, which is again, a function of Batman existing in a comic setting and thus there being no way to conclusively end anyone's story. The writers constantly presenting him with increasingly absurd situations while going 'Well! You sure want to murder someone now, I guess, don't you? And wouldn't it be so easy!? GET TO MURDERING BUT YOU CAN'T' and him constantly being confronted by characters whose ridiculous objective is not just 'I wish to kill the Joker' but rather 'I wish to FORCE BATMAN TO DO IT' just drains all the interest out of the setup. This irks me too, because BTAS did it quite well, and they only really waved the "thou shalt not kill" flag once or twice, one of those times was when batman was dealing with the sewer king, who was abducting street orphans and forcing them to work as his own personal underground crime army. They also showed the consequences of killing rather well in Justice League, because once you do it the first time, it gets easier. Once you do it the 200th time, it's routine.
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Dec 19, 2014 16:57
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Kurieg posted:This irks me too, because BTAS did it quite well, and they only really waved the "thou shalt not kill" flag once or twice, one of those times was when batman was dealing with the sewer king, who was abducting street orphans and forcing them to work as his own personal underground crime army. He didn't kill the Sewer King. He tried to save him from the alligators and the guy refused to be helped by Batman. Speaking of the Sewer King, he also forbade the kids to speak at all, and fed an unknown number of them to the aforementioned alligators. e: Actually, I think I misunderstood your post. Nevermind. my dad fucked around with this message at 17:09 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 17:06
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my dad posted:He didn't kill the Sewer King. He tried to save him from the alligators and the guy refused to be helped by Batman. That's what I mean, he was a monster and didn't really have a mental disorder to use as an excuse. And he didn't die (the Gators were his pets so they didn't hurt him), Bats grabbed him and looked like he was going to kill him for a moment before tossing him to the cops.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:17
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You're all sort of misunderstanding how Strange intends to start this up in other cities - it's got nothing to do with people thinking a large scale open prison will be effective in other cities after the massive failure of Arkham City. Strange thinks that after Protocol 10 is complete and all the villains are dead, people will go "Oh hey, this is actually better. Why didn't Batman do this years ago? You're the best Strange." Strange really, deeply believes that the general public will see him as a hero for getting rid of all the supervillains, not as a grossly incompetent prison administrator. Then he can set up in Metropolis and Keystone with the public's full expectation that everybody inside will end up dead. Obviously this plan is dumb but that's because Strange is bananas.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:20
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Everyone is bananas, including Batman, Catwoman and Thug #17.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:38
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Pwnstar posted:Everyone is bananas, including Batman, Catwoman and Thug #17. Thug #16, though, is just a relatively normal guy who never asked to be in here and has found he has no choice but to join up with the supervillains or die in the cold, riven with guilt over the atrocities he's committed in the name of self preservation and hoping desperately that the Riddler is the lesser of two evils. Finally, Batman arrives and defeats his erstwhile companions, then grabs him. "Don't hurt me! I have information for you!" He says, moments before getting a spiked gauntlet in the eye. Arkham Batman is kind of a dick.
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Dec 19, 2014 17:54
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Night10194 posted:Thug #16, though, is just a relatively normal guy who never asked to be in here and has found he has no choice but to join up with the supervillains or die in the cold, riven with guilt over the atrocities he's committed in the name of self preservation and hoping desperately that the Riddler is the lesser of two evils. Finally, Batman arrives and defeats his erstwhile companions, then grabs him. "Don't hurt me! I have information for you!" He says, moments before getting a spiked gauntlet in the eye. He may leave them laying face down in a puddle in -20F weather with a shattered orbital and two hyper-extended arms, but he doesn't kill people.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:10
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He also totally forgot about that nurse. Put me down as another one dissapointed that Hugo Strange didn't go mano a mano with Batman.
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Dec 19, 2014 19:32
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Yah, having a Strange would have been good. As I said before, Strange is crazy, and the city plans for Metropolis and Keystone are crazy. Not just for the fact that the superheros of the cities can easily handle the city; the flash can run up and down walls and Superman, is well, superman. The other issue is their villains. There is no way that Lex would let something like Arkham City be built in his town, and the Rogues have Mirror Master who regularly gets them out of prison through the mirrors. Its only in Gotham that this plan could even hope to work, and as the bad end shows, it wouldn't have.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:02
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grandalt posted:Yah, having a Strange would have been good. As I said before, Strange is crazy, and the city plans for Metropolis and Keystone are crazy. Not just for the fact that the superheros of the cities can easily handle the city; the flash can run up and down walls and Superman, is well, superman. The other issue is their villains. There is no way that Lex would let something like Arkham City be built in his town, and the Rogues have Mirror Master who regularly gets them out of prison through the mirrors. Its only in Gotham that this plan could even hope to work, and as the bad end shows, it wouldn't have.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:06
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:What about all of the innocent people that disagreed with him and just conveniently happened to be nuked on the exact same night that Protocol 10 needed to be executed?  In the meantime, holy crap, did you know that Bruce Wayne is Batman and therefore Strange was completely justified in "temporarily" detaining him? I mean, it's Batman's fault things were so bad Arkham City had to be built, amirite?  The point is, I can almost see Strange's crazy, crazy plan working in the Arkhamverse ... Something just occurred to me - obviously, at this point, Joker already knows where Lazarus Pit is. So, why not take a dip right now? It can't possibly make things worse for him at this point, right? Now, Lex vs Strange... Again, I can almost see him agreeing to to cooperate (after all, it would permanently get rid of any undesirables in Metropolis), on the condition that Superman should end up there as well, obviously. Oh! Strange can deduce Superman's identity too, right? He could've used that as a bargaining chip (not that Lex would ever believe that Superman is Clark Kent, but that's beside the point )
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Dec 19, 2014 20:17
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I admit, I'm not a huge fan of superman, but all the situations where someone comes in and tries to scheme and go 'Ahaha I can defeat the SUPERMAN' and then suddenly gets a rather hefty and swift reminder that he's literally a demigod do make me smile some.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:20
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grandalt posted:Yah, having a Strange would have been good. As I said before, Strange is crazy, and the city plans for Metropolis and Keystone are crazy. Not just for the fact that the superheros of the cities can easily handle the city; the flash can run up and down walls and Superman, is well, superman. The other issue is their villains. There is no way that Lex would let something like Arkham City be built in his town, and the Rogues have Mirror Master who regularly gets them out of prison through the mirrors. Its only in Gotham that this plan could even hope to work, and as the bad end shows, it wouldn't have. Arkham City fundamentally wouldn't work in Keystone because part of what makes Arkham City work is that nobody inside gets along. Joker is fighting with Penguin who is fighting with Two Face who is fighting with Catwoman who is fighting with Ivy, and all the big players are trying to play keep away with Freeze, and Croc is somewhere in the sewers eating passersby, and it's all just a big loving mess. In Keystone? All of Flash's rogues regularly work together and are pretty good friends. Even if you removed Flash from the equation somehow, the inmates of Iron Heights City would just team up and take Strange out rather than devolving into infighting like the Gotham rogues.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:43
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Night10194 posted:I admit, I'm not a huge fan of superman, but all the situations where someone comes in and tries to scheme and go 'Ahaha I can defeat the SUPERMAN' and then suddenly gets a rather hefty and swift reminder that he's literally a demigod do make me smile some. Again, a favourite comic of mine is I believe a modern one where Superman meets the Joker and Superman no sells him like he was Zack Ryder attacking Hulk Hogan. Batmans stories and villains really have to exist in their own comic, and while Batman can leave them, generally when the others do it just seems silly. It always seems so silly because frankly most of these guys aren't threats to them. Lex Luthor is a threat to superman because he's got a vast intelligence, far beyond anyone else in the world and the thing is, he could very well cure cancer, but he wont just to prove that he's the best. In fact he'll cure a person and then reverse his cure just to prove the point that he always could. It's opposite Reed Richards syndrome. Reed Richards is sort of accidentally 99% of the time written to be a tosser. Lex really IS an rear end in a top hat. But the point is, Lex has billions he can throw into research and a good public face to fight Superman. Joker is a dude who's crazy. In reality Joker has the greatest power of all. Popularity Plot Armor. Joker cannot die because then Batman loses his most popular villain. So the obvious answer to me, as it has always been is, Stop making the Joker such a mass murdering psychopath. Because it makes Batman look incompetent and by proxy EVERYONE look incompetent. Lex Luthor doesn't commit mass murders, not just because of his public image but because he doesn't need to, he has ways of establishing his threat without doing so. Like becoming President of the United States. He never needed to do that, but he drat well loving could. And while we're on the subject, the worst thing to come out of the Nu52 was not anything sexual, it was Mr. Freeze's legitimate grief over loving his wife too drat much being changed to him just being Nora's stalker. I'll let Wikipedia sum this up quote:Batman Annual #1 introduces a new origin for Mr. Freeze. Here, Victor Fries' fascination with cryonics began when he was a boy and his mother fell through the ice of a frozen lake. The ice was able to keep her preserved long enough for help to arrive, thus sparking his lifelong obsession with the cold. It is later revealed that the accident left Fries' mother in constant pain, and Fries ended her suffering by pushing her into a lake. In this new origin, Nora was never Fries' wife. Her name was Nora Fields, a woman born in 1943. When Nora was 23, she was diagnosed with an incurable heart disease, so her family placed her in cryogenic stasis hoping that a cure would be found in the future. Fries, having written his doctoral thesis on Nora, took on a position as a cryogenic researcher and technician at Wayne Enterprises, the facility that housed Nora's body. Legitimate grief and a reasonable motive that while still clearly placing him in the villain role makes him someone to be pitied? No gently caress that, and now it actually IS Bruce's fault he became a super villain. CuwiKhons posted:Arkham City fundamentally wouldn't work in Keystone because part of what makes Arkham City work is that nobody inside gets along. Joker is fighting with Penguin who is fighting with Two Face who is fighting with Catwoman who is fighting with Ivy, and all the big players are trying to play keep away with Freeze, and Croc is somewhere in the sewers eating passersby, and it's all just a big loving mess. In Keystone? All of Flash's rogues regularly work together and are pretty good friends. Even if you removed Flash from the equation somehow, the inmates of Iron Heights City would just team up and take Strange out rather than devolving into infighting like the Gotham rogues. Also FLASH GENUINELY LIKES HIS ROGUES... at least the Wally West version does. I mean they aren't best friends but there's always been a sort of unspoken rule among the Rogues. They stick to petty bank crimes and never try to kill Wally, and Wally in turn stops them from commiting crimes and never you know... vibrates them to the point they explode. Their weapons, while horrifying to use on regular people, just BARELY give them the means of slowing the flash down. But the Rogues in general (not all of his Rogues Gallary, I mean Zoom would be utterly different) get along with him and in turn if something like this went down, would help him shut it down. Onmi fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Dec 19, 2014 |
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Dec 19, 2014 20:44
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I would very much enjoy seeing that. Someone comes to Flash's town and pulls this grimdark bullshit and he and his villains just team up, stop them, and go back to playing superpowered tag and trying to work through mental issues.
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Dec 19, 2014 20:51
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Onmi posted:Also FLASH GENUINELY LIKES HIS ROGUES... at least the Wally West version does. I mean they aren't best friends but there's always been a sort of unspoken rule among the Rogues. They stick to petty bank crimes and never try to kill Wally, and Wally in turn stops them from commiting crimes and never you know... vibrates them to the point they explode. That reminds me of that episode of Justice League where all of Flash's rogues are complaining about him always stopping their crime while they sit at a bar and how they're hardcore big time criminals. And then they order stuff like ginger ale and milk when the bartender comes because Captain Cold has stomach ulcers, you see.
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Dec 19, 2014 21:00
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It's called Flash and Substance, and has this great scene where Batman and Orion have to follow him around to keep him safe while they try and figure out who amongst the Rogues is actually trying to kill him. It also shows how he deals with his Rogues
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Dec 19, 2014 21:40
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| # ? May 16, 2024 22:49 |
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 This is Wally partying with his Rogues. And here is a page from that issue just to show that no, it's not just a cover 
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Dec 19, 2014 22:04
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