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Worth noting that palpatine didn't dissolve the senate until part 4. He was in absolute power then, not before. The senate willingly created the galactic empire for "stability".
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Dec 21, 2014 03:58
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Also, the films have always been against democracy when defined as majority rule. The majority of people elected Palpatine to power, and the majority of people are happy to have even more power. There's a dictatorship in democracy that's evident from the very first scenes of Episode 1. Anakin is right: Obiwan's impartiality, neutrality, and overall refusal to adopt a perspective holds him back from actually accomplishing the Jedi's stated goals. Anakin believes a benevolent dictatorship is necessary, and he's not entirely wrong there.
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Dec 21, 2014 05:35
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Also, the films have always been against democracy when defined as majority rule. The majority of people elected Palpatine to power, and the majority of people are happy to have even more power. There's a dictatorship in democracy that's evident from the very first scenes of Episode 1. I'd say Obi-Wan's problem was that he adopted one perspective too strongly. He believes that the Republic and the Jedi are the unambiguous good guys in the conflict; he's not neutral at all. He doesn't become Mr. Certain-Point-of-View until the OT--and that's something I think he actually learned from Anakin and the Sith.
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Dec 21, 2014 10:37
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:Also, the films have always been against democracy when defined as majority rule. The majority of people elected Palpatine to power, and the majority of people are happy to have even more power. There's a dictatorship in democracy that's evident from the very first scenes of Episode 1. El Perkele posted:They're pretty much like your theories about the narrative of the prequel trilogy, but in Lucas approved form and about as subtle as a rhino in heat. Even if you consider such stuff unnecessary for the reading of the films themselves, said Cartoons are heavily indicative of what Lucas - very involved in the production of the cartoons! - wanted to say with the prequels. 
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Dec 21, 2014 10:53
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Separatist senators (who we're never really shown) presumably didn't elect Palpatine to power. The Senate in ROTS is a rump senate made up of Palpatine's supporters. For a guy who lets the Trade Federation off scot-free, presides over the disintegration of the Republic, and leads a war effort which sees the Republic "crumbling," he sure is a popular guy.
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Dec 21, 2014 11:32
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KaptainKrunk posted:Separatist senators (who we're never really shown) presumably didn't elect Palpatine to power. The Senate in ROTS is a rump senate made up of Palpatine's supporters. KaptainKrunk posted:For a guy who lets the Trade Federation off scot-free, presides over the disintegration of the Republic, and leads a war effort which sees the Republic "crumbling," he sure is a popular guy. Actually, the Republic's "crumbling" is mostly rhetoric, because they're winning the war already. The battle of Coruscant is a desperate gamble by the CIS to reverse momentum by decapitating the Republic; when it fails, they flee to the Outer Rim in disarray, even being forced to relocate heir leadership to a random mining outpost. Almost all of the fighting we see in the movie happens on separatist heartland, those planets Jedi get Order 66'ed on, the "outer Rim sieges" in the scrolling text. Palpatine also uses both sides' propaganda to his advantage, so he does retain popularity. As for the TF, they get marginalized and then nationalized after the war.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:42
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The Trade Federation has a chokehold on interplanetary trade and the ships they contribute to the CIS are explained away as rogue officials. They're officially supposed to be neutral and there's very little anyone can do about their Separatist leanings. The banks, at least until control of the central bank gets seized by the Republic post Sith meddling, work with both sides too.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:51
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It's pretty easy to see why the Empire winds up being very Human-centric, when the public faces of the commercial enemies in the Clone Wars are all syndicates dominated by one species or another. If the TF or Banking Clan or Commerce Guild are whatever are publicly blamed for starting all this mess, and none of them have human in anything more than a token capacity, it's like concentrated feed for racist assholes in the Core.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:25
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Madurai posted:It's pretty easy to see why the Empire winds up being very Human-centric, when the public faces of the commercial enemies in the Clone Wars are all syndicates dominated by one species or another. If the TF or Banking Clan or Commerce Guild are whatever are publicly blamed for starting all this mess, and none of them have human in anything more than a token capacity, it's like concentrated feed for racist assholes in the Core. Which - and I'm unsure as to whether or not this will survive the EU purge - makes sense since the Sith hate "aliens," which doesn't really make sense since the original Sith were "aliens" and there have been a lot of alien Sith Lords, but the EU doesn't make a whole lot of sense and I'm glad it's dead; wipe it out, all of it.
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Dec 21, 2014 22:42
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Dystram posted:Which - and I'm unsure as to whether or not this will survive the EU purge - makes sense since the Sith hate "aliens," which doesn't really make sense since the original Sith were "aliens" and there have been a lot of alien Sith Lords, but the EU doesn't make a whole lot of sense and I'm glad it's dead; wipe it out, all of it. This is delving too far into the toilet of the EU but the Sith organization itself isn't particularly anti-alien, that all came from racist Republic-turned-Imperial bureaucrats, of which there were many. Palpatine didn't seem to personally care one way or another, he had plenty of nonhuman sycophants. Wipe it out, all of it.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:22
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Potential BFF posted:This is delving too far into the toilet of the EU but the Sith organization itself isn't particularly anti-alien, that all came from racist Republic-turned-Imperial bureaucrats, of which there were many. Palpatine didn't seem to personally care one way or another, he had plenty of nonhuman sycophants. Ah, ok. It's tough to tell what's EU and what isn't when sometimes EU garbage gets mixed in to cannon stuff and vise versa. The only things that should be cannon are the movies.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:48
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Should be fired out of a cannon more like.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:11
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A thought: Dark City is what would have happened as the natural evolution of the Republic and the Jedi, had the Sith not intervened.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:14
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I'm mildly curious to know who was the first douchebag who thought the Sith should go from classic evil designs like Vader and the emperor to the mess of pseudo-tribal tattoos and red skin the EU seems to be overrun with. Did all that come from Darth Maul? Or was it already established and Lucas just put it in there?
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Dec 22, 2014 01:16
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Lurdiak posted:I'm mildly curious to know who was the first douchebag who thought the Sith should go from classic evil designs like Vader and the emperor to the mess of pseudo-tribal tattoos and red skin the EU seems to be overrun with. Did all that come from Darth Maul? Or was it already established and Lucas just put it in there? Darth Maul.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:19
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I thought Maul was pretty cool. Though I question the evolutionary perks of them horns.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:57
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Dystram posted:Darth Maul. It was established in the Tales Of The Jedi series, which were a few years before Darth Maul that the Sith were originally red-skinned aliens. Then Darth Maul codified it.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:02
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Lurdiak posted:I'm mildly curious to know who was the first douchebag who thought the Sith should go from classic evil designs like Vader and the emperor to the mess of pseudo-tribal tattoos and red skin the EU seems to be overrun with. Did all that come from Darth Maul? Or was it already established and Lucas just put it in there? I kind of like the reading that Palpatine chose Maul because Maul literally looks like Satan and he would scare the Jedi shitless. Vader looks functional because there is no one left to scare, only the audience. This works all the better because it seeped into the EU.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:05
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Corek posted:It was established in the Tales Of The Jedi series, which were a few years before Darth Maul that the Sith were originally red-skinned aliens. Then Darth Maul codified it. Darth Maul is a zabrak with red and black tattoos over his whole body. The red-skinned Sith are a totally different race. My post was in response to whoever asked what or who led to all the newer Sith lords having edgy tribal tattoos - my response was Darth Maul.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:33
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Grendels Dad posted:I kind of like the reading that Palpatine chose Maul because Maul literally looks like Satan and he would scare the Jedi shitless. Vader looks functional because there is no one left to scare, only the audience. This works all the better because it seeped into the EU. Palpatine found Maul as a baby and trained him.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:34
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Dystram posted:The only things that should be cannon are the movies. It's the movies, The CGI Clone Wars, and Rebels. The Clone Wars is pretty decent for what it is and manages to stay fairly grounded and far from EU poo poo. Rebels seems to be developing along those lines as well.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:39
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Dystram posted:Palpatine found Maul as a baby and trained him. Daw, that's kind of sweet of Sheev.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:41
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Potential BFF posted:It's the movies, The CGI Clone Wars, and Rebels. Right, but the only things that should be cannon are the movies. The cartoons are fairly ok but I don't like them being cannon in order to retroactively fill in gaps in the PT, story and character development, that exist because of shoddy writing. They too often get used to excuse that crap - "well, it's explained/shown in the cartoon!"
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Dec 22, 2014 02:43
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Grendels Dad posted:Daw, that's kind of sweet of Sheev. sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv
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Dec 22, 2014 02:44
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Dystram posted:sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv more like shiv amirite
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Dec 22, 2014 03:04
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meristem posted:I think the whole discussion across the past pages showed that actually the majority of people didn't elect Palpatine to power? Rather, that on a scale like a galaxy, representative democracy is pretty much impossible. Or did you mean 'the majority of people in the Senate'? Not the majority of the galaxy, but the majority of people in the Republic. The senate is a very simple way to visualize the population of the Republic. The imagery at the end is of the entire audience of elected representatives applauding while Padme mopes from a distance. Yoda falling to the bottom floor of the senate and escaping through a maintenance tunnel isn't 'just' a reference to Empire Strikes Back; it also symbolizes his place in the Republic now. Padme's been pushed to the side. Yoda's been shat out. The line about freedom dying to a thunderous applause is a callback to the coliseum and arena imagery from the previous films - and the basic imagery of huge puppet armies walking in formation. 'The people' are the Gungans, clones, and droids, and they're often easily manipulated - but they're also the ones that Padme should have been serving all along.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:07
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SuperMechagodzilla posted:The line about freedom dying to a thunderous applause is a callback to the coliseum and arena imagery from the previous films - and the basic imagery of huge puppet armies walking in formation. 'The people' are the Gungans, clones, and droids, and they're often easily manipulated - but they're also the ones that Padme should have been serving all along. They are all also notably fake, being mostly comprised of CGI. Disclaimer: This is not a counter-argument.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:31
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Dystram posted:Right, but the only things that should be cannon are the movies. That's fair. While I agree they shouldn't be necessary as a fallback for explaining things in the movies I'm okay with them existing which I can't say about pretty much all of the EU short of some ship designs. Even the Thrawn stuff that gets thrown around as being good just strikes me as eye-rolling.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:56
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Potential BFF posted:That's fair. Agreed.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:09
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Potential BFF posted:I'm okay with them existing which I can't say about pretty much all of the EU short of some ship designs. And not many of them. Like, maybe the Assault Gunboat from X-wing, and not anything else.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:15
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Dystram posted:Right, but the only things that should be cannon are the movies. There's nothing in the cartoons that needed to be covered in the movies. They expand on things in an interesting way, but it's all stuff that's tangential to the main story, or was already covered in the films in sufficiently abbreviated form. The Clone Wars is an anthology series about events during a war. Episodes I-III is a story about the fall of Anakin Skywalker, using a war as a backdrop. That's why we only see the beginning and end of the the Clone War in the movies--those are the only parts that are important to the story. ecureuilmatrix posted:As for the TF, they get marginalized and then nationalized after the war. And Palpatine never (publicly) let them off scot-free. The Courts did. Presumably, Palpatine actually cracked down on the Federation after becoming Supreme Chancellor, exactly like he said he would, which is why they've been pushed to the point of armed secession by Episode II. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 08:01 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 07:58
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Dystram posted:sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeevvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvvv What? The gently caress are you talking about? Your name is Palpy!
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Dec 22, 2014 10:11
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Potential BFF posted:It's the movies, The CGI Clone Wars, and Rebels. It's as if the Matrix reboot (which one would that be canonically, 6.0?) operated on apps, Big Data and the Internet of Things. I think I would watch an apps/IoT Matrix.
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Dec 22, 2014 10:39
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Lurdiak posted:What? The gently caress are you talking about? Your name is Palpy! He'll always be Monster Mash to me.
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Dec 22, 2014 13:18
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Lurdiak posted:What? The gently caress are you talking about? Your name is Palpy!
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Dec 22, 2014 16:28
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Prototype toy pics leaked and possible concept art of Kylo Ren's helmet.
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Dec 22, 2014 17:21
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Szmitten posted:Prototype toy pics leaked and possible concept art of Kylo Ren's helmet. http://indierevolver.com/2014/12/22/a-closer-look-at-kylo-ren-in-star-wars-the-force-awakens/ 
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Dec 22, 2014 18:05
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Little too Vader-y, but still cool? I dunno yet.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:10
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Mortal Kombat's Scorpion meets the Stahlhelm. I'm not in love, but I doubt I'd love Vader's helmet if I saw it for the first time today. E: course, w/ the caveats opinions based on crappy blurry pictures entail.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:16
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CelticPredator posted:Little too Vader-y, but still cool? I dunno yet. It would make sense that any new Sith would ape the style of the most known Sith leader.
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Dec 22, 2014 18:48
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