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Cool Ghost posted:I don't have anything near 100 Sleep spells, and I'm not sitting around to draw them from Grats, so that's out, and once you're able to refine status magic, you can get Break with no effort because you can buy Softs. I'm not saying you have to do it, I'm just saying it works.
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Dec 21, 2014 05:22
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Cool Ghost posted:Later on, there's even an option to just move junctions over from one party member to another without having to do any of the other menu work. It's great. This is actually available from the get-go. It's in the same part of the menu as you use to switch characters in and out of the party, so it's totally understandable that you wouldn't go loving around in there until you get to the point in the plot where you'd be able to do that part, but the junction exchange system is always available. The party member switching is of course grayed out until it's available.
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Dec 21, 2014 05:31
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Have you ever wondered why you can name Squall but nobody else? This is why.
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Dec 21, 2014 06:43
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I really appreciate the Blind Gunswordsman Zatoichi here. The closed eyes are probably from focussing before Renzokuken, but with 255% Hit, the blind status literally only helps him fight better, because this is a mechanic that makes sense.  Also, I'm pretty sure that if you hit something with a 100% Sleep ST-J physical attack, you'd just wake it up and immediately put it back to sleep, so Quistis's advice isn't that bad.
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Dec 21, 2014 11:54
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Refining the 80 Wizard Stones into Curagas is kind of a waste since you can already buy Tents which convert straight up into Curagas. Since there's literally nothing else worth spending money on at this point, there's no reason whatsoever not to blow all your money on tents every single time.
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Dec 21, 2014 13:21
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MagusofStars posted:Refining the 80 Wizard Stones into Curagas is kind of a waste since you can already buy Tents which convert straight up into Curagas. Since there's literally nothing else worth spending money on at this point, there's no reason whatsoever not to blow all your money on tents every single time. *breaks game in one of the 1887348623 other really obvious ways* This is not meant as critique, except towards the game.
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Dec 21, 2014 14:04
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Fister Roboto posted:Have you ever wondered why you can name Squall but nobody else? This is why. Please rename "Squall" to "Squally".
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Dec 21, 2014 14:31
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MagusofStars posted:Refining the 80 Wizard Stones into Curagas is kind of a waste since you can already buy Tents which convert straight up into Curagas. Since there's literally nothing else worth spending money on at this point, there's no reason whatsoever not to blow all your money on tents every single time. Notice he has 100 Tornado spells in inventory. Junctioned to HP, that would be +3000 HP as opposed to the +2200 that 100 Curagas would give (Tornado is +30HP per spell as opposed to +22 for Curaga), and Tornado is a little more than twice as effective a junction for STR and MAG. In fact, Tornado's a much better spell for everything except SPR.
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Dec 21, 2014 18:21
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MagusofStars posted:Refining the 80 Wizard Stones into Curagas is kind of a waste since you can already buy Tents which convert straight up into Curagas. Since there's literally nothing else worth spending money on at this point, there's no reason whatsoever not to blow all your money on tents every single time. Why buy the Tents when you can get the Curagas for free?
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Dec 21, 2014 19:29
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Cool Ghost posted:Why buy the Tents when you can get the Curagas for free? I dunno, Cool Ghost posted:Curaga is a great, easy-to-get HP junction early in the game (100 Curagas add 2,200 to HP) and it's honestly not a terrible idea to sink a bunch of gil into Tents for it. But you seem to, so let me ask you, why is it not a terrible idea to sink a bunch of gil into Tents for Curaga, if you can get them for free?
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Dec 21, 2014 20:04
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Well, like he said there's not really much else to spend money on at this point, and there are a lot better spells that you can refine from wizard stones that you can't get through money.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:26
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Gim52a posted:I dunno, You can buy Tents infinitely, which means that it takes basically zero effort to get 100 Curagas for everyone, or to fill in what you don't get from the Wizard Stones. The Wizard Stones can also be used for other things, if that's how you want to play it. Buying Tents isn't a terrible idea, and like MagusofStars pointed out, there's not a lot else that it's important to buy, but I decided to take the free Curagas.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:27
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It's not like it matters that much. This game is trivially easy to break if you know what you're doing.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:30
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That's also true - if I really wanted to, I could play cards for 10 hours and get the (edit: second-)best HP junction in the game for everyone.
Cool Ghost fucked around with this message at 08:59 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 21, 2014 20:39
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Cool Ghost posted:like MagusofStars pointed out Yes, this is what I was trying to get at. Both MagusofStars and you yourself pointed out good reasons to buy tents, but you quoted MagusofStars' post that had a reason for buying tents in it, and responded with Cool Ghost posted:Why buy the Tents when you can get the Curagas for free? to the very same post that you now reference when I asked you to answer this very question. It just annoyed me, that's all. I have no problems whatsoever with you not wanting to do it in the LP, it's all good by me. And I'll shut up about this now.
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Dec 21, 2014 20:45
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 SHIN Alright, I'm done for the day.
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Dec 21, 2014 23:55
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Aithon posted:Also, I'm pretty sure that if you hit something with a 100% Sleep ST-J physical attack, you'd just wake it up and immediately put it back to sleep, so Quistis's advice isn't that bad. Along with the 100% ST-Atk, assuming ((your Str) - (its Vit)) / 4 is greater than or equal to its sleep resistance (e.g. a 0-point advantage if it has 0% resist, an 80-point advantage if it has 20% resist), then yes, that would work. e: T-Rexaurs have 50% sleep resist. You'd need a 200-point advantage to drop that to 0%. Otherwise it might sometimes wake up. Handily, their Vit is thoroughly pathetic (it's like 18 at level 100, and less at lower levels). Vil fucked around with this message at 00:30 on Dec 22, 2014 |
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Dec 22, 2014 00:27
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Simply Simon posted:Cool Ghost: "I won't buy Tents to make infinite Curagas and break the game really easily." How broken can you make this game? I just one shot Ifrit, at level 7.
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Dec 22, 2014 00:36
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Silegna posted:How broken can you make this game? I just one shot Ifrit, at level 7. yeah, now imagine doing that to the final boss at level 8.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:15
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I've never been able to figure out how this game is "meant" to be played.
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Dec 22, 2014 01:18
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Ignore levels and junction/transmute spells is what I've gathered.
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Dec 22, 2014 02:03
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Fister Roboto posted:I've never been able to figure out how this game is "meant" to be played. I *think* the way the developers probably intended you to play through the game would go something like this: 1.) You don't really intentionally avoid battles/experience (via Card, running away, or reduced enemy frequency abilities) BUT you also never intentionally go out of your way to get into battles or grind XP. So you gain levels at a fairly consistent pace throughout the game. 2.) You gain most of your magic through Draw. Since you're leveling fairly slowly and some of the best spells aren't available from early game enemies regardless of level, this puts a bit of a cap on the kind of junctions you have available until the mid-game. 3.) You use refining abilities minimally to supplement your available magic/junctions, but without intentionally grinding for specific items - maybe you have a few Fish Fins to turn into Water from random battles, but you're not grinding out multiple battles to load up on them to get 300 Waters; as mentioned in (2), you're getting most of your magic from Draw. 4.) You don't go out of your way to do Card battles or use Card Mod. Maybe you refine a few cards here and there, but you're not intentionally hunting down the really game-breaking moddable ones. 5.) You actually use magic on a semi-regular basis - so while you might have a little bit of powerful magic early on (see point 3), the few way-too-early Curagas or whatever you picked up are getting used up rather than permanently being junctioned and making you wildly overpowered. That's the best I can figure. Following all of this would probably produce a difficulty curve that increases gradually as you go along. You wouldn't have brokenly powerful things early on since you're not abusing refining or Card Mod; by the time you naturally get the great junctions, the enemies would have leveled up enough that they'd no longer be game-breakingly powerful.
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Dec 22, 2014 03:39
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MagusofStars posted:I *think* the way the developers probably intended you to play through the game would go something like this: I did this, ended up being level 35 before beating the game.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:49
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MagusofStars posted:I *think* the way the developers probably intended you to play through the game would go something like this: I'm gonna go ahead and say this is it. This is pretty much how I played it, and I didn't break anything. I had no idea it was possible to break the game so easily.
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Dec 22, 2014 04:51
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Fister Roboto posted:I've never been able to figure out how this game is "meant" to be played. Step 1: buy Brady Games guide Step 2: follow it religiously Step 3: never actually learn how the game works
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Dec 22, 2014 05:18
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Yeah, when played like that it's an alright/well-balanced game. I forget, if you let the GF auto-pick what ability they learned every time, how far down the list were the refinement abilities anyway? I'd say their location there would, more than anything, say how they imagined the average person would/should play the game.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:36
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Decus posted:Yeah, when played like that it's an alright/well-balanced game. I forget, if you let the GF auto-pick what ability they learned every time, how far down the list were the refinement abilities anyway? I'd say their location there would, more than anything, say how they imagined the average person would/should play the game. I'm pretty sure the default abilities for GFs to learn are dumb things like SumMag+10/20/30%. If you don't set them to the useful stuff, it will take you forever.
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Dec 22, 2014 05:42
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Decus posted:Yeah, when played like that it's an alright/well-balanced game. I forget, if you let the GF auto-pick what ability they learned every time, how far down the list were the refinement abilities anyway? I'd say their location there would, more than anything, say how they imagined the average person would/should play the game. TL;DR version: morallyobjected posted:I'm pretty sure the default abilities for GFs to learn are dumb things like SumMag+10/20/30%. If you don't set them to the useful stuff, it will take you forever. Long version: Somewhat far down. More glaringly dumb is the position of the basic stat junctions in the priority list. For the GFs we've got so far, it goes like this - numbers in parentheses are net AP needed to get there if you let the GF do what it wants. Quetzalcoatl: (pre-learned: Mag-J, basic commands) SumMag +10% (40) SumMag +20% (110) SumMag +30% (250) GFHP +10% (290) GFHP +20% (360) Boost (370) T Mag-RF (400) Mid Mag-RF (460) HP-J (510) Mag +20% (570) Mag +40% (690) Elem-Atk-J (850) Vit-J (900) Elem-Def-J (1000) Elem-Def-x2 (1130) Card (1170) Card Mod (1250) Shiva: (pre-learned: Spr-J, basic commands) SumMag +10% (40) SumMag +20% (110) SumMag +30% (250) GFHP +10% (290) GFHP +20% (360) Boost (370) I Mag-RF (400) Vit-J (450) Vit +20% (510) Vit +40% (630) Spr +20% (690) Spr +40% (810) Elem-Def-J (910) Elem-Def-x2 (1040) Str-J (1090) Elem-Atk-J (1250) Doom (1310) Ifrit: (pre-learned: Str-J, Elem-Atk-J, basic commands) SumMag +10% (40) SumMag +20% (110) SumMag +30% (250) GFHP +10% (290) GFHP +20% (360) GFHP +30% (500) Boost (510) F Mag-RF (540) Ammo-RF (570) Str +20% (630) Str +40% (750) Str Bonus (850) HP-J (900) Elem-Def-J (1000) Elem-Def-x2 (1130) Mad Rush (1190) Siren: (pre-learned: Mag-J, ST-Atk-J, ST-Def-J, basic commands) GFHP +10% (40) GFHP +20% (110) Tool-RF (140) SumMag +10% (180) SumMag +20% (250) SumMag +30% (390) Boost (400) L Mag-RF (430) ST Med-RF (460) Mag +20% (520) Mag +40% (640) Mag Bonus (740) ST-Def-x2 (870) Treatment (970) Move-Find (1010)
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Dec 22, 2014 07:12
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the first time I played this game I thought summons were cool, had no idea you could reorder the way they learned abilities, avoided the card game, had no idea Card could let you refine stuff into high tier magic, did a lot of drawing ... basically if you don't think about the system beyond the tutorials provided, you're playing it "as intended" but as we have all seen, there's nothing stopping you from turning yourself into a powerhouse from minute five. Junctions and the way they work could be cool, but if the developers wanted it to be balanced ... I don't even know. Level gating some stuff, I guess? But then that just rewards early grind for xp instead of early grind for Curagas. I dunno, I'm not sure any system like Junction could be "saved" per se without making it incredibly frustrating once you DID know how it worked.
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Dec 22, 2014 07:19
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This thread is tempting me to play the game again. I think the plot and characters are irredeemably botched, but there's something so appealing about such a breakable system. I just need to hold out until we get updates about spreading/not spreading the loving card game rules, and I'm sure I'll be cured of any desire to go through that.
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Dec 22, 2014 07:27
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Psion posted:I dunno, I'm not sure any system like Junction could be "saved" per se without making it incredibly frustrating once you DID know how it worked. Maybe making it skill-based instead of number-based? Like in Transistor you can toss your dodge skill on your passive slot and your character becomes overall faster, or upgrade your attack with a stun skill to make it stun enemies for a while. It could end up like equipment upgrading in FFX, only with less tedium because magic is everywhere. Transistor was also highly breakable, but it was at least interesting to break, because it was more about mixing skill concepts together than about getting the highest bonus to your damage dealing stat.
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Dec 22, 2014 07:59
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Psion posted:Junctions and the way they work could be cool, but if the developers wanted it to be balanced ... I don't even know. Level gating some stuff, I guess? But then that just rewards early grind for xp instead of early grind for Curagas. I think it would be better if junctions were tied directly to the GFs, so each GF would improve each stat by a certain amount per GF level. Make the gains for each individual GF small and the way they're spread out would gate it semi-naturally. You could still grind your GFs, but it would be like grinding in any other game, basically. Other than that, you could gate off cards better (like, say, have people in Balamb in disc one only play level 1-2 cards), which would shut down some major exploits, and put some level ceilings on enemies based on area; you could set it up so that enemies in Balamb and the SeeD exam cap out at level 10 or something, so you can't draw high-level spells off of them. That's a lot of words to say it would take a major overhaul, I guess.
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Dec 22, 2014 08:29
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Does it really need that much of an overhaul? I mean, sure it's easily breakable, but is that such a bad thing? Nothing is forcing you to break the game over your knee. Lots of folks in this very thread played it without breaking it at all! (I didn't.) Yet the option is there for folks who really learned the Junction system and went out of their way to find stuff. I think that's an ideal system. It's there, but it's not mandatory.
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Dec 22, 2014 13:33
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My dream rehaul for FF8 would have each character learn abilities by level-up (so a magically oriented character like Selphie might learn Blizzaga), similar to FF4, and each GF would bestow a base set of abilities when junctioned, and additional unique abilities pertaining to that character/GF combination as they level up. Even possibly have skills unlocked only with a specific set of GFs equippied (like Shiva + Ifrit on Zell). GFs would provide some useful stat boosts, but nothing gamebreaking, and magic would either be less powerful in boosting stats or made more necessary to be used in combat. Would require heavy system overhauls, but a man can dream. I still like the FF8 system, but I won't deny it's easy to break it if you want to.
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Dec 22, 2014 13:44
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Psion posted:Junctions and the way they work could be cool, but if the developers wanted it to be balanced ... I don't even know. Level gating some stuff, I guess? But then that just rewards early grind for xp instead of early grind for Curagas But they do level gate stuff already, that's the thing! They were so close to having that system in place but ultimately all they did was lock two refinements behind GF Level 100 and call it a day. Ultimately I just think FF games without the Job System are ultimately worse than ones with it.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:12
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MarquiseMindfang posted:But they do level gate stuff already, that's the thing! They were so close to having that system in place but ultimately all they did was lock two refinements behind GF Level 100 and call it a day. The PC version lacks those level 100 limits.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:36
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I was a dumb and stubborn kid, and manually drew 100 of every spell, three times. And I still managed to break the game with other means.
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Dec 22, 2014 16:37
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Drawing 100 spells isn't that painful as long as you junction your magic stat up first.
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Dec 22, 2014 22:35
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Silver Falcon posted:Does it really need that much of an overhaul? Most of the problem I have with the system is there's no relateable context for it. It's not something that makes any kind of sense at face value. What does it mean to draw and stock magic? Where am I storing these spells? In my pockets? On a magic scroll? In my BRAIN?? How does junctioning actually work? Why does junctioning fire make me stronger? How am I converting animals into cards, cards into physical objects, and those into spells? It's all just so abstract.
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Dec 22, 2014 22:41
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This LP is definitely better than playing the game again. It's an old game and all but I wish people weren't so quick to leap in with "I'm going to write up a play-by-play of [thing] soon!" when the OP hasn't had a chance to touch on [thing]
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Dec 22, 2014 22:44
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