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Disinterested posted:A nation of people that drinks pickle juice to cure its hangovers must be destroyed. Any civilized person knows that you should be drinking pickle juice while getting the hangover. Man, it's been too long since I had a pickleback.
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Jan 19, 2015 13:56
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What's so bad about "unearned feelings" of accomplishment, etc? It's not like there's a finite supply of feelings that needs to be rationed out. Confession: I sometimes give people undeserved praise.
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Jan 19, 2015 13:56
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Mukip posted:What's so bad about "unearned feelings" of accomplishment, etc? It's not like there's a finite supply of feelings that needs to be rationed out. Confession: I sometimes give people undeserved praise. Because complimenting others is a nice thing to do, but complimenting yourself for accomplishments you had no part of is just crass.
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Jan 19, 2015 14:27
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I'm proud national pride is disapproved of in my country.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:47
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Cingulate posted:I'm proud national pride is disapproved of in my country. Who'd have bet this would turn out to be a typical German attitude 100 years ago?
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Jan 19, 2015 15:47
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Nobody. Everyone who might have agreed with it was terribly pessimistic and depressed, as is evident from them going to Spain or France to kill themselves.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:52
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Ardennes posted:Basically, free elections aren't really free if you don't have equal rights for the population, it is a fair criticism of the US before civil rights as well. Even when the US had full blown slavery they were still a democracy. Slavery has been a thing for all of human history. Europe and america still have sex slave trade. They still get the democracy label from me. Perhaps some day in the future well have direct democracy and all humans will be free, no prejudice and elections will be the thing of theoretical beauty. But in the meantime we have the messy aparthaid, slavery, prejudice, hispanic non citizens in america not voting kind of democracy. Rigged elections are a whole nother thing.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:54
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I can't tell if you're being serious with this whole "yeah apartheid's not ideal, but the Swart Gevaar will kill us all without it" crap. Maybe I need to read GBS more.
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Jan 19, 2015 15:57
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Cerebral Bore posted:Because complimenting others is a nice thing to do, but complimenting yourself for accomplishments you had no part of is just crass. Good then, america isnt my country, i didnt help shape its history. But i am an immigrant living in the land and i appreciate the opportunities i have that i would never have anywhere else in europe. And their still the best country in the wold by a long shot
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Jan 19, 2015 15:57
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A Fancy 400 lbs posted:America managed to gently caress up in Eastern Europe even though literally all they had to do was wait for the USSR to collapse. Instead they sent a bunch of assholes over to "help" by telling the newly independent states in Eastern European to privatize everything. The ones who went, "Lol, gently caress that and gently caress off" tend to be doing a lot better than the ones who listened. The ones that did better are the ones who listened. Poland privatized and their corruption is real low. They do have too heavy of a beurocratic system they didnt shake that from their russian days. The countries that didnt do well tend to have high corruption, heavy red tape beurocracy, didnt fully privatize, stayed more within the russian sphere of influence and the russian mentality of doing business. The people Ive met in poland, my family, their friends. Are very happy with the condition of the polish economy, how its grown since adopting american ways. And we have a democracy that works very well for us. Then you look at russia and all its satellite countries that it corrupted and they struggle. But they never went full american. They wanted to be mini russias but in charge of their own failure. As russians are owning their failing economy now through heir glorious leader kim jun putin
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Jan 19, 2015 16:12
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davidb posted:Even when the US had full blown slavery they were still a democracy. Slavery has been a thing for all of human history. Europe and america still have sex slave trade. They still get the democracy label from me. Perhaps some day in the future well have direct democracy and all humans will be free, no prejudice and elections will be the thing of theoretical beauty.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:13
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davidb posted:The people Ive met in poland, my family, their friends. Are very happy with the condition of the polish economy, how its grown since adopting american ways. And we have a democracy that works very well for us. I guess it's hard for corrupt politicians to stay in power when they spend their first bribe making the pilot of their airplane drink so much vodka that he crushes the whole thing into the ground. 
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Jan 19, 2015 16:15
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davidb posted:The ones that did better are the ones who listened. Poland privatized and their corruption is real low. They do have too heavy of a beurocratic system they didnt shake that from their russian days.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:15
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As human made institutions go, the U.S. has probably been one of the greatest positive forces in world history. For what it's worth.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:18
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Panzeh posted:Poland deserved all the partitions it got and the fact that it couldn't naturally assert its own independence is very telling about its national character. Agreed. Polands lucky to exist, to have a healthy economy and a functioning democracy. They didnt earn it. Just like jews/israel America #1
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Jan 19, 2015 16:36
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Cingulate posted:To some, democracy means any system where government depends on voting. To others, it's a system where the people rule - equally, that is. An apartheid nation could be a democracy under the first, but not the second understanding. Agreed. But since there is no direct representation fully equal democracy well have to go with the more realistic real world version. Even in the best situation poor, sick people have trouble getting out to vote. That theoretical nations inability to make voting happen for the hobo under the bridge is a failure of democracy. Then we have all the shades of grey between the perfect democracy and the rigged election. I draw my line at rigged elections.
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Jan 19, 2015 16:40
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Randler posted:I guess it's hard for corrupt politicians to stay in power when they spend their first bribe making the pilot of their airplane drink so much vodka that he crushes the whole thing into the ground. The russians and ukrainians do a drat good job of staying corrupt while dying of vodka. Their really committed to their corruption so they get the failed economies they deserve
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Jan 19, 2015 16:42
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Cingulate posted:And the lowest corruption - lower than in the US, and much lower than in Poland - can be found in the nordic countries, which are usually seen as socialistic to some degree. Are you trying to say russia has less corruption than america? Russia where investors and world business wont touch with a 10 foot pole Vs America the #1 economy in the world. Ranked highly in terms of ease of business, security, rules of law, patent enforcement, low taxes?
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Jan 19, 2015 16:45
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asdf32 posted:As human made institutions go, the U.S. has probably been one of the greatest positive forces in world history. For what it's worth. Its not perfect. Has and still does some stupid poo poo. But still the best
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Jan 19, 2015 16:50
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davidb posted:I draw my line at rigged elections. Wait wait. Disenfranchisement and apartheid don't bother you, but rigged elections is where you say it's not a democracy finally? Well poo poo, I guess an absolute monarchy is a democracy as long as we're not lied to about how the king casts the one and only vote in the country. asdf32 posted:As human made institutions go, the U.S. has probably been one of the greatest positive forces in world history. For what it's worth. Well if you mean the stated ideals of the United States: that all men are created equal with inalienable rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness then yes that idealism has been a great positive force. Unfortunately, the same can't be said for the violent and brutal nation-state that bears the same name. VitalSigns fucked around with this message at 17:18 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 16:59
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VitalSigns posted:
Yeah america is a brutal nation state? Your such a delicate flower of ideals
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Jan 19, 2015 18:35
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VitalSigns posted:Wait wait. Disenfranchisement and apartheid don't bother you, but rigged elections is where you say it's not a democracy finally? Humans are violent and brutal. That's not an excuse for the intellectually lazy conclusion that all human institutions are equally bad or overall destructive.
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Jan 19, 2015 18:56
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KomradeX posted:Hilarious fact the pledge of Aleigence was originally designed as a way to sell American flags to immigrants in the late 19th century. America had always ever been about the supremacy of capitalism. Even better are the old people who get bent out of shape over people wanting to remove the 'under god' portion of it. That bit wasn't added until the 1950s as a bit of Cold War propaganda. A large chunk of the geriatrics who scream about how removing it is desecrating US history never even said it when they were in school. Also: 
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Jan 19, 2015 19:01
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I think the US has definitely been essential for extreme positive developments. However, not necessarily so much where it, as a state, was intentionally trying to fix the world; for example, while this is hard to say in hindsight, I'd be surprised if south america would have been worse off without all the CIA toppling of democratically elected governments. But US citizens, building on US spirit, economy and liberty, have made tremendous contributions to science and technology, saving undoubtedly billions of lives. Think just of Norman Borlaug and the Green Revolution. davidb posted:Are you trying to say russia has less corruption than america?
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Jan 19, 2015 19:05
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The United States is not a positive force in the world, lol if you think any nation state is.
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Jan 19, 2015 19:25
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davidb posted:But in the meantime we have the messy aparthaid, slavery, prejudice, hispanic non citizens in america not voting kind of democracy. So basically you're literally saying that sometimes slavery/apartheid are necessary? If not, then what do you think you're accomplishing by defending the countries (like Israel) that do this sort of thing? Nothing would ever change for the better if the world was full of people like you who justified the evils of the status quo. "Well, nobody is perfect" has never been a sentiment that leads to positive change.
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Jan 19, 2015 19:28
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Ytlaya posted:Nothing would ever change for the better if the world was full of people like you who justified the evils of the status quo. "Well, nobody is perfect" has never been a sentiment that leads to positive change. Nobody is perfect can be a valid way of looking at history. Further back in our history people were so pig-ignorant that it's hard to say of them that they should have made choices that we regard as morally appropriate in the modern world, particularly with regards to thinks of which those people were simply unaware. The problem is trying to translate that logic in to the present to totally relativise everything - or even to totally relativise the past. By the mid-late nineteenth century all of the arguments for slavery had been debunked thoroughly. It was obviously a morally bankrupt idea, not even consistent with itself. Nationalism had a very appropriate role to play in the time it was a developing phenomenon, as a way of stopping ancien-regime horse-trading of social and political communities. It is a totally legitimate social feeling to say 'look, we're Saxons. I don't want to be told I am a lower Saxon or an upper Saxon, or that I live in a different country to half of my family because of some curiousity of dynastic law. We should be allowed to have our fates conjoined'. On occasion feelings like this developed quite a long time ago in parts of Europe that were a jigsaw of states. It's very easy to see how you can get to an irredentist position from here, but a large number of early German romantics did think of nationalism more in these terms than in the crowing militaristic terms with which we are more familiar. Disinterested fucked around with this message at 19:37 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 19:35
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Disinterested posted:Nobody is perfect can be a valid way of looking at history. Further back in our history people were so pig-ignorant that it's hard to say of them that they should have made choices that we regard as morally appropriate in the modern world, particularly with regards to thinks of which those people were simply unaware. The problem is trying to translate that logic in to the present to totally relativise everything - or even to totally relativise the past. By the mid-late nineteenth century all of the arguments for slavery had been debunked thoroughly. It was obviously a morally bankrupt idea, not even consistent with itself.
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Jan 19, 2015 19:40
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Ytlaya posted:
Good thing we dont depend on people like you to get things done. People like you that require ideological purity to get your support. I see thomas jefferson as a great man who did important/good things. You masturbate about how he owned slaves I see america for the democracy spreading, russia neutralizing, world peace maintining great country that it is Your all like...america was mean this one time in band camp
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Jan 19, 2015 19:52
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Does neutralizing Russia also involve democracy spreading and world peace maintaining? As an American I seem to recall spreading democracy to Russia a few decades ago, what happened there? You as an immigrant with experiences in lovely-non American states can surely explain that to me.
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Jan 19, 2015 19:58
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davidb posted:Agreed. But since there is no direct representation fully equal democracy well have to go with the more realistic real world version. A state deliberately and systematically denying individuals from voting is an entirely different kind of failure of democracy from sick people being unable to vote or homeless people being unable to vote (actually, a homeless person probably could vote, but being homeless they probably have more important matters to attend to). America Inc. fucked around with this message at 20:21 on Jan 19, 2015 |
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Jan 19, 2015 20:11
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In fact, I have no problem with saying that the US was not a real democracy until the Civil Rights Era.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:20
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"Real" Democracy is a 20th century invention since before then you always had large portions of the populate who were not given the vote before they had the wrong colour skin, were poor, didn't have a penis.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:21
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BigPaddy posted:"Real" Democracy is a 20th century invention since before then you always had large portions of the populate who were not given the vote before they had the wrong colour skin, were poor, didn't have a penis.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:28
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LookingGodIntheEye posted:but if we are going to say that you can still have a democracy with apartheid in the 21st century then our definition of democracy is so fast and loose as to be completely meaningless. Agreed, you give the vote to everyone of age (come on is anyone really going to argue children should vote?) or it isn't truly representative. This is in place in western Democracies so now you have the next hurdle to cross which is make people involved with the political process so they are informed and go out and vote. That is something far harder to change.
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Jan 19, 2015 20:33
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BigPaddy posted:Agreed, you give the vote to everyone of age (come on is anyone really going to argue children should vote?) or it isn't truly representative. This is in place in western Democracies so now you have the next hurdle to cross which is make people involved with the political process so they are informed and go out and vote. That is something far harder to change. There are many difficulties achieving the perfect theoretical democracy. The children should get a vote if they understand what voting is. Why should 17 year olds be aparthaid..ed. kids are growing up fast nowadays. Your dismissal of 17 year old voters as not mentally capable is similar to why other groups were deemed not fit to vote throughout history. I dont know exactly what percentage of the population needs to be eligible to vote to still be considered a democracy. We currently require citizenship and 18years old. That still leaves a lot of people on the sidelines. I just know that rigged votes is my cutoff and aparthaid isnt. Because aparthaid is like slaves in america not voting. And i still consider america a democracy pre civil war. LookingGodIntheEye posted:In fact, I have no problem with saying that the US was not a real democracy until the Civil Rights Era. I recognize that as a legitimate stance the boston bomber posted:Does neutralizing Russia also involve democracy spreading and world peace maintaining? As an American I seem to recall spreading democracy to Russia a few decades ago, what happened there? You as an immigrant with experiences in lovely-non American states can surely explain that to me. What happened is whats been happening. Not every society can handle democracy..its a very fragile beast. Polish society had a certain...russian flavour to it. But when i visit my russian friends i can really see the difference in mentality between russians and say...germans who made democracy work Germans want to get the job done, whats good for society lets build it. I respect germans more than polaks Russians first thought is how can i work the system to make some money. That means lie cheat steal bribe, dont work if possible. Russians tried democracy and simultaneously their cultural mentality similtaneously was working against it. Backroom deals, hand twisting, bribes, jail for people who disagree. They value a mongol khan type more than voting together for the societies good. Similarly their attempt at free market capitalism. They want the benefits they see from pictures of capitalist lifestyle. But they dont have the laws in place to make it work. First you had the oligarchs swallow most of the pie. Then you have the government controlling the market and taking companies from ciitzens. The way a mongol khan could take war booty and women for himself at a whim and in dispraportional amounts
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Jan 19, 2015 21:28
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davidb posted:I just know that rigged votes is my cutoff and aparthaid isnt. Because aparthaid is like slaves in america not voting. And i still consider america a democracy pre civil war. oh man, you should probably stop
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Jan 19, 2015 21:49
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Ytlaya posted:So basically you're literally saying that sometimes slavery/apartheid are necessary? If not, then what do you think you're accomplishing by defending the countries (like Israel) that do this sort of thing? If you don't grade on a curve everything flunks. It ends up being as intellectually barren as blind support of the stays quo.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:14
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asdf32 posted:If you don't grade on a curve everything flunks. It ends up being as intellectually barren as blind support of the stays quo. Not everyone has been committing genocide and slavery continually for the last several centuries.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:25
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Mornacale posted:Not everyone has been committing genocide and slavery continually for the last several centuries.
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Jan 19, 2015 22:27
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