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Antares posted:If you didn't play those games when they were current / know D&D systems, they're badly dated and incredibly tedious. There's a good reason PoE has its own systems instead of being Baldur's Gate with an updated D&D edition number. Yes, and that reason is licensing.
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Feb 8, 2015 19:01
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And because the good version of the DnD rules that would make an amazing digital adaption Wizards have already thrown away because grognards complained a lot. If they licensed the current DnD rules they'd be just as much of a mess as 2nd and 3rd Edition digital adaptions.
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Feb 8, 2015 19:07
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Disco Infiva posted:Yes, and that reason is licensing. Nothing was stopping them from using the Open Game License, considering Knights of the Chalice has never received a cease and desist.
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Feb 8, 2015 19:23
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Antares posted:If you didn't play those games when they were current / know D&D systems, they're badly dated and incredibly tedious. There's a good reason PoE has its own systems instead of being Baldur's Gate with an updated D&D edition number. Nah, IE games have actually aged quite well compared to the vast majority of games from that era, especially thanks to community patches and mods. 2nd edition AD&D is not great but there's still a pretty big difference between "these games aren't perfect" and "these games should be forgotten". Even if you don't like them, preserving and remembering old classics is always important when it comes to any medium. That's not the same thing as directly copying them, which should go without saying.
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Feb 8, 2015 19:25
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Oasx posted:I don't know for sure, but i assume that IWD 2 had a much bigger budget, plus the benefit of using an engine that was mostly bug free. A lot of people believe that if you can think of something, it will suddenly come into existence and work immediately in the game without anything beyond trivial effort. rope kid fucked around with this message at 20:02 on Feb 8, 2015 |
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Feb 8, 2015 19:59
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a slim pixie posted:Nothing was stopping them from using the Open Game License, considering Knights of the Chalice has never received a cease and desist. http://www.pathguy.com/ddnext.htm
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Feb 8, 2015 20:12
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quote:The "Dungeons and Dragons" phenomenon has encouraged young people to study other cultures. It is a game in which people work together to accomplish a meaningful goal. Characters even define themselves in terms of their good morals and their ethics. On one level, it simulates the spiritual warfare described in the Christian scriptures and in the Arthurian legends on which the game is based. I am proud that I was able to make a contribution.  Amazing
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Feb 8, 2015 20:19
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rope kid posted:That's a dangerous game to play. Holy poo poo for real?
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Feb 8, 2015 20:19
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Kanfy posted:Nah, IE games have actually aged quite well compared to the vast majority of games from that era, especially thanks to community patches and mods. 2nd edition AD&D is not great but there's still a pretty big difference between "these games aren't perfect" and "these games should be forgotten". They've aged incredibly poorly compared to games from practically any genre other than RPG. Perhaps Baldur's Gate has aged less poorly than the likes of Fallout, but compared to the actual vast majority of games? No. Definitely not.
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Feb 8, 2015 20:23
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Mymla posted:They've aged incredibly poorly compared to games from practically any genre other than RPG. Perhaps Baldur's Gate has aged less poorly than the likes of Fallout, but compared to the actual vast majority of games? No. Definitely not. I picked up BG2 for the first time in 2010 or 11 and loved it, despite never having played a D&D game before 
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Feb 8, 2015 20:32
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rope kid posted:That's a dangerous game to play. Disgusting.
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Feb 8, 2015 20:38
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Mymla posted:They've aged incredibly poorly compared to games from practically any genre other than RPG. Perhaps Baldur's Gate has aged less poorly than the likes of Fallout, but compared to the actual vast majority of games? No. Definitely not. Yeah you are vastly overstating how badly it's aged. Compared to JRPGs (grind grind grind motherfucker and I hope you like searching every nook and cranny for the hidden quest NPCs), a lot of early console games (especially the NES/SNES crop that was built on the old arcade model of "bullshit hard to pull more money"), the atrocious level designs of most post Doom FPS games (until about a decade later it was a checkbox list of bad must-have locations), the utterly hilariously bad interfaces of early Warcraft era RTS games and the bullshit rubber-banding of early racing games - Baldurs Gate has aged very well. There's highlights in all those genres of course (Dark Forces level design is at least twice as sensible as anything of the time for example), but most of the titles in them - not that good anymore. DatonKallandor fucked around with this message at 20:46 on Feb 8, 2015 |
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Feb 8, 2015 20:41
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Mymla posted:They've aged incredibly poorly compared to games from practically any genre other than RPG. Perhaps Baldur's Gate has aged less poorly than the likes of Fallout, but compared to the actual vast majority of games? No. Definitely not. I completely disagree about other genres having aged better, except for maybe "ageless" stuff like 2D platformers. RPGs have always been largely about numbers, and while they've certainly become prettier and the various systems have changed and improved over time, they're still very much about those exact same numbers. In comparison pretty much all other genres, action games, horror games, first-person shooters, sports games, racing games, etc. have all benefited tremendously from technological improvements as they're far less about numbers and much more about things like visuals and fluidity of controls. A good RPG from 2015 is almost certainly better than a good RPG from 1998, but a good action game from 2015 might as well be from an entirely different planet than a good action game from 1998. Kanfy fucked around with this message at 20:50 on Feb 8, 2015 |
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Feb 8, 2015 20:48
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frajaq posted:
Wasn't that the guy who refused to code in evil paladins because they went against his personal beliefs or something?
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Feb 8, 2015 20:50
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In Mymla's defence it might be not so much that the IE games have become retrospectively awful, but that CRPG design in general has stagnated since their release compared to other computer games and tabletop RPGs.
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Feb 8, 2015 21:03
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Infinity Engine games have joys such as having to deal with the worst pathfinding in the history of gaming, needing knowledge of three editions old D&D rules and the wonders of save or die spells. They're basically impenetrable without help from the internet. Compared to games like Mario 64 or Half-Life, yeah, they've aged poorly. Both of those games are easy to just start up and play. IE games require research and mods to not have a bad time with. I would recommend more or less any newer RPG over the IE games.
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Feb 8, 2015 21:11
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I'm still astonished that 4th ed never managed to see the light of day in a game. Just one of those weird IP things, but still...
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Feb 8, 2015 21:12
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Fungah! posted:Wasn't that the guy who refused to code in evil paladins because they went against his personal beliefs or something? Aren't they just called Blackguards anyway?
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Feb 8, 2015 21:13
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SurrealityCheck posted:I'm still astonished that 4th ed never managed to see the light of day in a game. Just one of those weird IP things, but still... Because it is Not Good. But its the basis for the MMO Neverwinter.
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Feb 8, 2015 21:14
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frajaq posted:Aren't they just called Blackguards anyway? 3.5 removed the alignment lock on paladins, with the catch that if you acted outside of your alignment (whatever it was) you'd fall, or I guess rise if you were an evil paladin. Our boy, if it is the same guy, refused to take the alignment lock off of paladins because he thought it was immoral and went against his value system e: I think they made Blackguards their own prestige class, which only fallen LG paladins could hit and IIRC included the clause that if you did anything that wasn't evil for any reason you'd double-fall and just be super hosed Fungah! fucked around with this message at 21:39 on Feb 8, 2015 |
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Feb 8, 2015 21:35
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Jastiger posted:Because it is Not Good. I can put my opinions in all caps too! It really makes them sound Definitive and Correct, doesn't it
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Feb 8, 2015 21:37
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Antares posted:If you didn't play those games when they were current / know D&D systems, they're badly dated and incredibly tedious. There's a good reason PoE has its own systems instead of being Baldur's Gate with an updated D&D edition number. i'm playing through them for the first time right now and having a lot of fun! i'm sure pillars of eternity will be better but you can make a better video game without smashing the four olds
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Feb 8, 2015 21:41
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I posted a bug report about it (though I guess it's not technically a bug) but the Spider Queen fight needs some loving I think. First off, it's possible to pull the other spiders from her without reacting which seems a bit weird. It also makes the fight very easy (even on Hard). Secondly, given her size, the pathfinding gets rather problematic when there's other spiders around. Mostly she just skitters around behind her army, not doing much. Maybe it'd be good to give her some sort of ranged weaponry or something to fire at us while we're busy dealing with her minions? I dunno, the fight gets anti-climactic since it rarely plays out "well" so to speak.
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Feb 8, 2015 22:00
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We've been talking to Dave about the call for help functionality. He and the area designers have been looking into it.
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Feb 8, 2015 22:13
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Pillars will only be a true successor to the IE games if I command my group of adventurers to navigate a cramped corridor, and then half of them go the wrong way
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Feb 8, 2015 22:19
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Jastiger posted:Because it is Not Good. Neverwinter doesn't really use the actual ruleset though. It's interesting because it relies on quite a lot of game-style logic, not least of which is keeping track of lots of debuffs etc on monsters and lots of tile-based movement. I can see the prevalence of interrupts and things making it a bit hard to translate directly but it still seems to be a more natural fit than the other versions to a game version.
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Feb 8, 2015 22:24
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Disco Infiva posted:Yes, and that reason is licensing.
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Feb 8, 2015 22:34
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I just hope they continue to produce content using their new assets/engine. It really hurts my soul to see companies develop all their own stuff and then choose not to continue it or only put out a single sequel, sometimes for reasons outside their control. On the topic of IE games - they're basically impossible to decipher without external help (see: the big manual that nobody read). People who had no desire to learn D&D just played off the seat of their pants and went by trial/error or I do X and Y usually happens. I swear the most common question was always "I miss SO MUCH but I don't know what to do to make it better. Wait what the gently caress is THAC-OH??" Rascyc fucked around with this message at 22:40 on Feb 8, 2015 |
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Feb 8, 2015 22:38
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SurrealityCheck posted:I'm still astonished that 4th ed never managed to see the light of day in a game. Just one of those weird IP things, but still... BUt I would also make a special allowance for those Dark Eye games because you either need to be a computer or severely german to run a game of Dark Eye
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Feb 8, 2015 22:44
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Basic Chunnel posted:I feel like we've seen enough of the work of Rope Kid et al to know that, all things being equal, they'd rather be working on something they built themselves in every respect and can adjust with impunity. When I play PoE I don't get the sense that it only uses its own ruleset and setting because getting a D&D license wasn't possible. That they could have gotten more money out of Kickstarter for a D&D product may or may not be true, but I think most any creative person, given the choice, would rather own something, even if they really love something that they could borrow. Yeah, I grew up on D&D games and have very fond memories of them, but I'd much rather see Obsidian working on their own IP & rule set.
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Feb 8, 2015 22:48
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Fungah! posted:I can put my opinions in all caps too! It really makes them sound Definitive and Correct, doesn't it It does. Thanks for agreeing! I think only good things can come from Obsidian doing their own IP.
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Feb 8, 2015 22:52
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Rascyc posted:I just hope they continue to produce content using their new assets/engine. It really hurts my soul to see companies develop all their own stuff and then choose not to continue it or only put out a single sequel, sometimes for reasons outside their control. IE games are perfectly learnable by just playing them and reading the descriptions for stuff. If a 12 year old with only a tenuous grasp of English can do it, so can just about anyone else making an honest effort as well.
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Feb 8, 2015 22:54
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Yeah as a kid I lapped up the IE games way easier than basically anything else at the time. Figuring out that the armor class thingy was better the lower it went wasn't hard either. Now to figure out which spell protection helped against what and what to use to get through those layered onion motherfuckers took some more effort.
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Feb 8, 2015 23:03
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You can basically ignore THAC0 as you only need to know low AC = good, high attack = good, it's not exactly great design but it's passable. The increasingly convoluted spell duels and byzantine stat system is where the real badness is
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Feb 8, 2015 23:08
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All I can say is that 13-year-old me trying to figure out 2nd edition D&D has a lot of sympathy for 28-year-old me trying to figure out Wasteland 2's derived stats system
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Feb 8, 2015 23:13
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verybad posted:IE games are perfectly learnable by just playing them and reading the descriptions for stuff. If a 12 year old with only a tenuous grasp of English can do it, so can just about anyone else making an honest effort as well.
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Feb 8, 2015 23:19
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DatonKallandor posted:Why should gear that is too powerful for normal mode be available in it? New Game+ with proper support means you get to play the game once and have a reasonable challenge and nice start-at-1 progression and then when you've done that you can play the extra hard mode that has stuff that might have been considered "unfair" in the first run but also equipment that lets you keep progressing in power without having to code level ups and the rewards that entails (talents, etc.). The programmers needs to code in the new gear, the artist need to make new models and qa need to test the balance of the new game+ items ..., time that could be used to make new items for the game.
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Feb 8, 2015 23:26
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Antares posted:they're badly dated and incredibly tedious Mymla posted:They're basically impenetrable without help from the internet. The games are still fine, but you are correct that they do not compare to jumping on turtles in Mario.  Half Life was a basic FPS with an enjoyable story. This has almost nothing to learn if youve played (anything resembling) Doom. It doesnt sound like you like games with these kinds of rules at all, and I hope you didnt get PoE just to complain about it when it shows up. DatonKallandor posted:the good version of the DnD rules that would make an amazing digital adaption Wizards have already thrown away because grognards complained a lot Strangely enough, there were a lot of people that simply didnt want to play an expensive miniatures game that required a computer to make characters. 4e (sandwiched between all of the other versions) stands out as the most "not DnD" of the collection. You may love it, but it is definitely sitting by itself at a different table by comparison.
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Feb 8, 2015 23:32
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^^^^^^ People claim that 4e is "not D&D", but it is also the version most similar to the original D&D. Jastiger posted:Because 4E is Not Good. But its the basis for the MMO Neverwinter. Jackard fucked around with this message at 23:40 on Feb 8, 2015 |
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Feb 8, 2015 23:34
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Jackard posted:^^^^^^ ODnD could be played with a small booklet, dice, and some paper.
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Feb 8, 2015 23:40
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