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Fyrbrand posted:Oh that's not as bad I guess. It's cool and good to see more zany random tables though! It's worse. At least d6 models removed wouldn't require 2 more dice get rolled for each potential loss. You have stockholm syndrome.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:00
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What's really sad is that Orks are my main army, the one faction I really, really enjoy in 40K, but my 'backup' army is CSM.  I now own a lot of vanilla Space Marines that I'm painting as Salamanders so I can field something green that doesn't suck.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:03
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HiveCommander posted:You can pay points to allow you the privilege of killing more of your own models (which also cost points) So, Commissars? Because the way I read the boss pole, it's a commissar. And nobody is complaining about blammin'. Except for those about to get blammed, that is. I didn't like it how in DoW blamming was done to make the troops shoot faster. Too gamey. BlackIronHeart posted:What's really sad is that Orks are my main army, the one faction I really, really enjoy in 40K, but my 'backup' army is CSM. I support your valiant choice not to go the rear end in a top hat way and do Death Guard. I swear most people go guard Nurgle for some mysterious *cough* T5 *cough* reason.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:19
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... I never said they weren't Nurgle CSM. But they're dirty white, not green! 
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Feb 12, 2015 07:25
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HiveCommander posted:Don't be forgetting SPESS MUHREENS and METAL BAWKSES! Well, you probably want to forget those examples... I don't get this meme
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Feb 12, 2015 07:42
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JcDent posted:So, Commissars? Because the way I read the boss pole, it's a commissar. And nobody is complaining about blammin'. Except for those about to get blammed, that is.
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Feb 12, 2015 07:51
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Herr Tog posted:I don't get this meme
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Feb 12, 2015 07:52
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HiveCommander posted:Don't commissars only blam one dude though to pass a failed morale check? How many do the before mentioned Boss Poles blam? Herr Tog posted:I don't get this meme Plus, the voice acting, I guess. EDIT: An old post of dudes playing Force on Force with Guardsmen. It would be a little more complicated with Space Marines, I guess. Then again, Force on Force Marine Squad would probably look like... Force on Force Astartes posted:Initiative level: D8 to D10 I think it's almost ridiculously good squad. Force on Force rolls succeed on 4+, so those D8 and D10s mean that Marines are very good at not running away. Body armor... I've never seen an official list where I goes above 1D. That and Advanced Life Saving techniques makes Marines in cover nigh immortal. Two squads like that and a Razorback, and you can play single player insurgency scenario till cows come home. Oh yeah, SP rules exists and they're perfect for heretics and stuff. And that's before you start drawing Fog of War cards or 40K'ed Fog of War cards. Force on Force doesn't give you points, as you have to build forces around scenarios and such. JcDent fucked around with this message at 08:30 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 08:06
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Ignite Memories posted:It should also be noted that there wasn't really anything wrong with the way things worked before. If you wanted orks to be fearful, just take away mob rule entirely. They over complicated things by adding more rolling that neither player even enjoys. The "issue" with the old table was that it didn't really affect mobs with a small number of models like Burnas or Meganobz. Those elite units often didn't have access to bosspoles either so were stuck at a single LD7 roll for leadership. That wasn't such an issue to me, but logically the fix would be to just give them access to a +1 LD and Bosspole upgrades. Sorted. But no, a random table that's just plain aggravating to use. That's a better idea. 
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Feb 12, 2015 11:08
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JcDent posted:How many do the before mentioned Boss Poles blam? Hell, you don't even need the Boss Pole for the Nob to blam some boyz, all it does is lets you reroll that super undesirable 1-3 'run away' result for a chance at killing a few dudes instead. If you take the aforementioned Ghaz expansion, you add 2 to the chart, but blam d3+3 Orks each time instead. You pay for a DLC book that makes you kill more of your own models when they fail morale checks (which are still leadership 7 or 8).
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Feb 12, 2015 11:29
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HiveCommander posted:The chart is either 'run away', 'Nob beats up d6 Orks' or 'Nob beats up d6 Orks unless there's less than 10 left'. Think he meant the 4th/5th ed bosspole which was 1 automatic wound (armour saves allowed). So that's gone up to an average of 1.75 wounds normally and 2.5 for Ghazzy, with a maximum of 6 (WOO FUN). Edit: HiveCommander posted:Oh, so they aren't resolved with the Nob's Power Klaw (which you'd never not take)? That makes it slightly less poo poo, at least Why would you take a power klaw now? Hope you like challenges. No more hidden power klaws so now your nob just gets challenged out and smushed before he gets to strike. It was worse in 6th before excess wounds spill over and a single lovely sergeant "challenging" your nob would stop it from doing any damage, but even in 7th your nob is a sitting duck to anyone remotely good at combat. Y'know, the sort of thing that'd be a good problem to fix with the new codex. Daedleh fucked around with this message at 11:43 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 11:35
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And I still don't see how that's supposed to be "Orky" flavor or whatever, since it's an old old evolution of Animosity from Fantasy and that never killed your own troops, just made them act like idiots. I've heard more than one player comment that this seems more of a Commissar rule than Ork. (And I heard that about the older versions too, but at least they weren't stupidly annoying to use.)
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Feb 12, 2015 11:36
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Not only that, but fluff-wise the changes are meant to represent Ghaz's Nobs being more brutal at enforcing discipline. By adding +2 to the result you actually reduce the chances of that happening, changing the 2-3 result to just a 1. Not to mention that the table goes from 1 to 6 and has no results for 7 or 8. Possibly the intention was 'you pass' but until GW FAQs it I have no idea. A bunch of S4 hits isn't too bad for 'ard boys, especially with a painboy (4+ save and 5+ FNP means you're probably not taking much damage). It's the random allocation of the hits which is a real pain, as according to RAW you have to resolve each hit fully before randomly selecting the next one 
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Feb 12, 2015 11:39
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Zark the Damned posted:It's the random allocation of the hits which is a real pain, as according to RAW you have to resolve each hit fully before randomly selecting the next one This is the crux of the issue. I could accept the changes with less of a grumble (though whoever thought that Orks needed nerfing is insane) if the new rule was as quick to resolve as the old one, but randomising who gets hit and rolling saves one at a time is frustratingly slow and cumbersome.
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Feb 12, 2015 11:45
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Rulebook Heavily posted:And I still don't see how that's supposed to be "Orky" flavor or whatever, since it's an old old evolution of Animosity from Fantasy and that never killed your own troops, just made them act like idiots. I've heard more than one player comment that this seems more of a Commissar rule than Ork. (And I heard that about the older versions too, but at least they weren't stupidly annoying to use.) 
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Feb 12, 2015 11:57
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On the other hand I think that's the worst space marines have ever been.
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Feb 12, 2015 12:09
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Orks were also pretty great with the choppa rule basically ruining the armor of anything you wanted to hit. No terminators, you do not have a 2+ save anymore, sorry. I assume that is gone forever and orks aren't good at close combat anymore?
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Feb 12, 2015 13:07
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HiveCommander posted:Considering old Mob Rule let them substitute their leadership value for the amount of models in the unit, with 11 or more being fearless, it's a pretty huge nerf. Also, they stayed 6pts a model (but got frag grenades for free). Orks were 6 points a model (and fearless when over 10 models) back when Space Marines were 17 points for a dude with only a Bolter and Power Armour. Now? Space Marines are 14 points each with their trademark armour and gun, but gained a Bolt Pistol, frag and krak grenades (which is 4 points of extra wargear back in their 4th edition codex) and Orks are still 6 points a model and have the lovely new Mob Rule which ritually kills off your own models every time you fail a morale test. Seems fair You forgot to add that Orks increased to 7pts if you give them Shootas (the best way to use boyz) 
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Feb 12, 2015 13:09
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Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Orks were also pretty great with the choppa rule basically ruining the armor of anything you wanted to hit. No terminators, you do not have a 2+ save anymore, sorry. I assume that is gone forever and orks aren't good at close combat anymore? Correct. Choppas are now just straight CC weapons. They did get Furious Charge in the 4th/5th dex which worked out nearly identically to the old choppas, but then FC got nerfed in 6th edition and they didn't get any more buffs in 7th. So now instead of attacking at the same initiative step as Marines, they have to wade through overwatch fire (losing a couple of boyz in the process), navigate a random charge distance (those front 2-3 boyz lost to overwatch adding another 2-3" of movement needed), get hit first by anything I4 or above (most things that are a threat to Orks) and then finally get to strike. Oh, and any Power Klaw wielding nobs get challenged out so no more hidden PK.
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Feb 12, 2015 13:15
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Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Orks were also pretty great with the choppa rule basically ruining the armor of anything you wanted to hit. No terminators, you do not have a 2+ save anymore, sorry. I assume that is gone forever and orks aren't good at close combat anymore? remember chem that hope is the first step on the road to disappointment e: oh we forgot about Orks coming with frag stikkbombs now so they didn't get a points drop this book because now instead of charging through cover and striking last they can now charge through cover and strike at i2 (now that furious charge only grants you a s bonus) which is last adamantium|wang fucked around with this message at 13:25 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 13:23
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also holy poo poo i really really hate how the 7e codices are laid out goddamn
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Feb 12, 2015 13:30
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...I just hate hams rules now. All that mathhammering and power weapon hiding sounds like unfun stuff.
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Feb 12, 2015 13:54
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adamantium|wang posted:also holy poo poo i really really hate how the 7e codices are laid out goddamn Yep they're loving terrible
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Feb 12, 2015 14:08
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JcDent posted:...I just hate hams rules now. All that mathhammering and power weapon hiding sounds like unfun stuff. Hidden weapons for melee are gone. They did enable some cool melee builds like IG power blobs though.
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Feb 12, 2015 14:14
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JcDent posted:...I just hate hams rules now. All that mathhammering and power weapon hiding sounds like unfun stuff. The power weapon hiding died in 6th ed dude.
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Feb 12, 2015 14:46
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Daedleh posted:
To be fair, hidden PK (and hidden weapons in general) was a lame mechanic. "Here, I'll allocate all your Chaos lord's hits to my boyz...now have fun getting insta-killed by the nob!" . Challenges are dodgy, but they are preferable to having units being basically extra hit points for a character.
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Feb 12, 2015 14:55
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Sephyr posted:To be fair, hidden PK (and hidden weapons in general) was a lame mechanic. "Here, I'll allocate all your Chaos lord's hits to my boyz...now have fun getting insta-killed by the nob!" . Challenges are dodgy, but they are preferable to having units being basically extra hit points for a character. Yeah, I'm more with Sephyr here. Though Guardsmen are still ablative shields to tanks/guardsmen with special weapons, I guess. I also don't like combined squads as an idea. Then again, I probably don't like any Guard changes after 5th ed. ...I guess, at this point, everyone is just violently agreeing that GW rules suck.
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Feb 12, 2015 15:22
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JcDent posted:So, Commissars? Because the way I read the boss pole, it's a commissar. And nobody is complaining about blammin'. Except for those about to get blammed, that is. Thing is, I'm pretty sure IG has better leadership saves than Orks. Hell I think everything has better leadership saves than Orks. And Commisars just kill one dude and then they pass. Not to mention that... the mob rule is probably the one table where rolling LOW is actually what you want? At least I'm sure getting a 1 is better than getting a 6. Now, like, Ramshakle used to be a random table roll. When your trukk got broken/destroyed, you rolled a d6. 1-2, trukk goes off in a huge fireball, with everything that implies. 5-6, trukk is just broken, passengers can disembark normally. 3-4 was the fun result, where the trukk would dash off in a random direction and THEN explode. If you rolled on target on the dispersion die, you chose where it went. This COULD mean that the trukk could explode on your face, but it could also run off to explode in the faces of the enemy-- likely leaving behind some orks ready to jump down their throats. The new rule is like... when the trukk takes a penetrating hit, roll a d6. On a 6, it's just a glancing hit. Which is LAME AS HELL since trukks already have lovely armor, and only 3 hull points anyway. So a 1/6 chance of something maybe good happening. "Maybe" since with their lovely armor trukks gets blown up more often than not. I don't mind random roll results. It made Orks pretty flavorful. The Shokk Attack Gun is an expensive and not very reliable bit of equipment, but I like it if only because there's a good chance that something amazing/funny will happen when you fire it off (in extremes, you can either vaporize yourself or an enemy unit. Or both.) I -do- mind when the random roll table explicitly does not offer anything better than an alternative. The old ramshackle rule meant that trukks were, in the end, unpredictable upon destruction. Now they are just... not as fun. And the thing about orks is that... yes, they can shoot a lot (but have lovely aim and most of their guns are not that strong), they are tough (but have lovely armor saves), they are monsters in melee (but have lovely initative). I believe there are maybe one or two units with Invulnerable saves and they are characters. Since their strong point is melee, orks want to cross the battlefield ASAP in force and get into a fight. The new rules... make it much harder for that to happen. Sephyr posted:To be fair, hidden PK (and hidden weapons in general) was a lame mechanic. "Here, I'll allocate all your Chaos lord's hits to my boyz...now have fun getting insta-killed by the nob!" . Challenges are dodgy, but they are preferable to having units being basically extra hit points for a character. Challenges are annoying as hell. You mention a chaos lord? This happened to me: Enemy chaos lord or Khorne challenged by boss, I accepted, and then not only did he kill the poo poo out of me BUT because of the rules of his weapons he also tore through the entire unit, challenge aside. It's really infuriating not being able to turn down a challenge without crippling yourself.
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Feb 12, 2015 15:24
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Daedleh posted:Correct. Choppas are now just straight CC weapons. They did get Furious Charge in the 4th/5th dex which worked out nearly identically to the old choppas, but then FC got nerfed in 6th edition and they didn't get any more buffs in 7th. Holy poo poo, overwatch is in the game now? That sounds even worse. Poor Boyz. All they want to do is get stuck in.
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Feb 12, 2015 15:28
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JcDent posted:...I just hate hams rules now. All that mathhammering and power weapon hiding sounds like unfun stuff. game is a loving mess now like twelve billion supplements and poo poo its crazy
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Feb 12, 2015 15:29
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Sgt. Anime Pederast posted:Holy poo poo, overwatch is in the game now? That sounds even worse. Poor Boyz. All they want to do is get stuck in. Yeeeah, while Overwatch is only a hit on a 6 (... unless there are rules to improve it which there might be), you often lose some orks on a charge. Well, on the plus side, charging at a unit of Lootas to shut down their superior dakka tends to be a bad idea.
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Feb 12, 2015 15:36
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Kerzoro posted:Now, like, Ramshakle used to be a random table roll. When your trukk got broken/destroyed, you rolled a d6. 1-2, trukk goes off in a huge fireball, with everything that implies. 5-6, trukk is just broken, passengers can disembark normally. 3-4 was the fun result, where the trukk would dash off in a random direction and THEN explode. If you rolled on target on the dispersion die, you chose where it went. This COULD mean that the trukk could explode on your face, but it could also run off to explode in the faces of the enemy-- likely leaving behind some orks ready to jump down their throats. Now that sounds like fun! I guess the only other way to get orks to the front melee would be to footslog them... if the game had any sort of suppression mechanic. Who cares about inaccurate low stregth shooting if you can suppress folk with it long enough fo da boyz to get stuck in? Moola posted:game is a loving mess now
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Feb 12, 2015 15:47
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JcDent posted:Now that sounds like fun! There is a suppression mechanic - pinning. Orks are one of the few armies that are vulnerable to it. And if they are pinned - guess which table they roll on! Sephyr posted:To be fair, hidden PK (and hidden weapons in general) was a lame mechanic. "Here, I'll allocate all your Chaos lord's hits to my boyz...now have fun getting insta-killed by the nob!" . Challenges are dodgy, but they are preferable to having units being basically extra hit points for a character. To each their own. I always felt stuff worked well. There was a bunch of conditions for hitting the Chaos Lord with the hidden Nob that I can't remember the specifics of, but I do remember it often being up to the defending player to allocate casualties and it was rare for me to be able to allocate to an IC. However, a lot of Orks' hitting power comes from the PK Nob. Now that it just gets challenged into insignificance they're even more screwed in combat. IIRC in 3rd-5th ed a mob of 10 used to kill 2 marines, then the Nob would kill another 2 by himself. Hardly ridiculous levels of killiness but losing those 2 wounds from the Nob really screws Orks over - especially with extra casualties from overwatch or failing a random charge. Daedleh fucked around with this message at 16:02 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 15:52
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I mean every unwieldy weapon carries a chance to get wrecked before you swing, but at least on a marine you get armor saves against most things. I've played a couple of games where every single one of my PK nobs got chainsworded into oblivion before taking a single swing. New mob rule sucks, because on top of taking horrendous losses from almost any shooting attack, you then proceed to murder a bunch of your own guys on top of it. I'd be fine with a generic "Bosspole: reroll morale check. 10+ boys: fearless. 10 or fewer: remove one model" thing, but of course GW does their usual GW thing, and manages to make rules that are both overly complicated and take forever, and also completely not fun and add no depth to the game. Someone in their design department gets a literal boner from the simple act of rolling dice, I guess. I like my Orks, but they really only win games because I either play low-model count lists and bury them in attacks, or this one Space Wolf guy who actively tried to get into combat for some reason.
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Feb 12, 2015 16:27
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JcDent posted:...I guess, at this point, everyone is just violently agreeing that GW rules suck. And they always have, but we were too ignorant to know any better. Many of us share a nostalgia for something that never existed.
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Feb 12, 2015 16:32
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osirisisdead posted:And they always have, but we were too ignorant to know any better. Many of us share a nostalgia for something that never existed. *rose colored glasses slowly crack then fall off *  *ensues*
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Feb 12, 2015 16:35
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osirisisdead posted:And they always have, but we were too ignorant to know any better. Many of us share a nostalgia for something that never existed. Ive basically known nothing but GW rules for miniatures up until very recently so yes this is very true x-wing is good
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Feb 12, 2015 16:45
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Daedleh posted:There is a suppression mechanic - pinning. Orks are one of the few armies that are vulnerable to it. Not to mention that orcs themselves don't HAVE any unit that cause pinning! Hell, can you imagine if Lootas, what with being extremely long-range hail of bullets HAD pinning? But no, now... the only real way to ensure your boys reach a place is by shoving them into a trukk, and try to distract their units with something else, like warbikers of deffkoptas. Daedleh posted:To each their own. I always felt stuff worked well. There was a bunch of conditions for hitting the Chaos Lord with the hidden Nob that I can't remember the specifics of, but I do remember it often being up to the defending player to allocate casualties and it was rare for me to be able to allocate to an IC. This, pretty much. An ork that doesn't initiate a charge has lovely initiative (... I actually forget how they changed Furious Charge tho), meaning just about anything will have better initiative. Their toughness will let them take less successful impacts than others, but their lovely armor save (6+ most of the time) means that they are very likely to die when they do get hit. When they get to hit (and they do a lot of that), then they have to deal with the enemies' often superior armor saves. PK Nobs are often there to balance the fact that, chances are, you just lost more orks than, say, a marine squad lost units-- by virtue of being terrifying blenders of death that are just very slow. Challenges, more often than not, take them out of the equation.
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Feb 12, 2015 16:55
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Kerzoro posted:Yeeeah, while Overwatch is only a hit on a 6 (... unless there are rules to improve it which there might be), you often lose some orks on a charge.
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Feb 12, 2015 17:09
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| # ? May 23, 2024 03:38 |
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First of all, furious charge does not increase initiative anymore. So those stikkbombs are completely loving useless because the orks are all Init 2 anyway. They also took away nobz' option to take heavy armor without giving it to the whole squad, so unless you want the whole unit to cost 10-11 pts per boy the ork nob cannot possibly obtain a decent armor save. This means that not only are the nobz easily killed by lightning claws and power weapons and poo poo, they are also now fairly vulnerable to just being taken out by a barebones CCW. So you can now add an extra 15+ points per squad for a naked mekboy to absorb challenges! [Mekboy models retail for roughly $25-30 and do not include all listed options, btw]. Oh but also you can only have one Mek per HQ choice! And there's no way to buy that Mek heavy armor, regardless of whether the squad he's deployed in buys it or not. Ignite Memories fucked around with this message at 17:15 on Feb 12, 2015 |
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Feb 12, 2015 17:09
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