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Cthulhuite posted:It doesn't encourage anything, it's literally a tiny handful of money that might be between one small amount and a slight larger amount, or one junk item instead of another. Save scumming just to get that extra handful of copper will be the most pointless waste of time, and I find it incredibly difficult to imagine what frame of mind someone has to be in to think that it's a huge and game-changing thing. This entire conversation is worthless (or worth the difference between 60 and 300 copper pieces) I think you underestimate how much a small segment of the playerbase likes optimising! But yes, I suspect what needs to be said has been said.
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Mar 2, 2015 17:14
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http://twofoldsilence.diogenes-lamp.info/2014/06/rewarding-degenerating-gameplay-lessons.html?m=1 It would be one thing if Rope Kid had not set out to design a system that avoids the same sorts of behaviors that having loot tables with such wide variabilities promotes (even if it does so for only a subset of players). As can be read in his editorial above, such considerations matter in system design and such design ends should be avoided if at all possible. For the very reason that this is not a "big" issue is why it should be "fixed." You have on one side a lot of players who don't care about the variance in loot tables. On the other side you have a small subset of players who care very much that it be tightened up. What does Obsidian loose from tightening it up to appease the small subset of players for whom it's a "big" issue?
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Mar 2, 2015 17:53
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No one cares to hear you. No one cares about your loot tables. Nothing will come of this.
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Mar 2, 2015 17:59
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Ladolcevita posted:http://twofoldsilence.diogenes-lamp.info/2014/06/rewarding-degenerating-gameplay-lessons.html?m=1 Okay I feel your sort of missing the point. Sure technically this is loot randomization. But in practice what I've seen its actually not really. Its turning random monetary rewards into more flavorful packages. It doesn't really matter if the money reward is 15 of this coin, 2 of this coin and 8 of that coin or 3 assorted gems. But it sure is more interesting than 50-2000 copper in a chest. But why is the total reward in a chest random ? Because if you have enough 50-2000 copper reward packages in the game it doesn't matter. But it sure is more interesting than knowing exactly than this chest always has exactly 201 copper and a topaz.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:07
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Ladolcevita posted:http://twofoldsilence.diogenes-lamp.info/2014/06/rewarding-degenerating-gameplay-lessons.html?m=1 Well, at this stage, manually fixing all the loot tables would just take a lot of time, to the point that if they haven't already done it, they won't be able to before release, and if they do, they won't fix more pressing issues (like the useless of Perception for ranged characters, or the lack of a "pause after each attack completes" checkbox). It'll also lessen replay value because it'll make everything more predictable. Is this really the hill you want to stand and die on? This is the big issue they need to be crunching on right before release? I think once you get the full game you'll realize this issue isn't critical because the randomized loot is going to always be junk compared to quest rewards and drops from placed encounters, despite the variance.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:09
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I think once you get the full game you'll realize this issue isn't critical because the randomized loot is going to always be junk compared to quest rewards and drops from placed encounters, despite the variance. This is my takeaway from the whole issue and, conveniently, in this it is precisely like BG2.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:18
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Ladolcevita posted:And as a backer, I will bitch about it to the chickens come home.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:28
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I think it shouldn't vary to to point that it's a toss-up between 300 gold to 500+a top tier generic item. At the same time however, god drat are people getting mad about this on both sides of the debate.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:30
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I am an investor in this game and would like to be treated with some respect
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Mar 2, 2015 18:32
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I am economically and emotionally invested in this game. Just like everyone else.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:39
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Ravenfood posted:Get over yourself. If companies don't want loudmouths like me complaining loudly (that being our thing and all) about minute details prior to a game's release, then they shouldn't promise to listen to and consider (though not necessarily agree with or implement) out inputs in exchange for our money before they even start making their game. They could make their game on their own dime and sell it to us like everyone else does.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:46
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Its a bit disappointing that the chest loot is randomized like that, but there are so many bigger design issues (anything to do with engagement, really) that I find it difficult to care even a little. As long as the loot is actually trash loot and there's 0 chance of getting a game changing item out of a chest, then I don't care if it's randomized or not. If sometimes I'll get trash and sometimes I'll get something that lasts for the next 3 levels, then that's horseshit but I'd still rather they fixed pathing and made engagement an aoe zone or something so my fighter doesn't get his rear end kicked when he knocks down one of the bugs near him but had to move 2 pixels to do it.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:54
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gigawhite posted:I am an investor in this game and would like to be treated with some respect You own a piece of Obsidian? Is that you, Feargus? I'm assuming you mean you're a backer. Kickstarter is very much not an investment.
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Mar 2, 2015 18:55
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As a backer I hope the game is fun.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:00
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Airfoil posted:You own a piece of Obsidian? Is that you, Feargus? Feargus needs to post here so I can yell at him about what an awesome idea it would be to do a Darklands remake
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Mar 2, 2015 19:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Feargus needs to post here so I can yell at him about what an awesome idea it would be to do a Darklands remake Behold http://serpentinthestaglands.com/ https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1649838104/serpent-in-the-staglands
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Mar 2, 2015 19:07
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Autonomous Monster posted:Behold Yeah, I *almost* backed that. It's close for me but no cigar. What I want isn't fantasy setting, I want the real-world historical aspect redone with modern graphics and game design; magic systems based on period alchemy and the invocation of saints, witches drawn straight from the Malleus Maleficarum, Knights Templar, etc. A high-fantasy RPG with tactical combat set in an actual historical period. I fear the budget for any such title would be prohibitive, though. Even at the time with watercolor graphics Darklands went way over budget. I do like how the text-box interactions in PoE are Darklands callbacks, with watercolor style illustrations, almost right down to the font. Hieronymous Alloy fucked around with this message at 19:20 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 19:15
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SurrealityCheck posted:I think you underestimate how much a small segment of the playerbase likes optimising! But yes, I suspect what needs to be said has been said. But do they really LIKE optimization to this extent or are they merely compelled to optimize due to brain disease???
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Mar 2, 2015 19:17
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Airfoil posted:You own a piece of Obsidian? Is that you, Feargus? But I took part in a fancy preorder, I'm important!
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Mar 2, 2015 19:20
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Captain Oblivious posted:But do they really LIKE optimization to this extent or are they merely compelled to optimize due to brain disease???
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Mar 2, 2015 19:23
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Captain Oblivious posted:But do they really LIKE optimization to this extent or are they merely compelled to optimize due to brain disease??? So it is alright for backers with brain disease to not enjoy a game when the fix is a simple narrowing of random gold ranges? Why are people so upset about people with mental illness hoping to enjoy a game when their suggested change has been described as meaningless and inconsequential to those who are healthy and rational?
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Mar 2, 2015 19:25
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SurrealityCheck posted:I think you underestimate how much a small segment of the playerbase likes optimising! But yes, I suspect what needs to be said has been said. I hope they are also save-scumming in the event a to-hit roll results in a miss. Gotta play optimally and missing is definitely not optimal. Someone make a mod that auto saves every 3 seconds and auto reloads on a miss.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:30
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Stats average over time and most certainly will in such a big game. The only reason I can see people are kicking up such a fuss is unmedicated mental illness
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Mar 2, 2015 19:32
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I would like a discussion on fixed loot vs randomized loot tables vs randomized with random stats loot. Not just re: pillars, but as a general game design choice.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:32
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I wanted to get 180-220cp from each chest but instead I got 100 and 300!! I won't forget this Sawyer ...
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Mar 2, 2015 19:33
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double nine posted:I would like a discussion on fixed loot vs randomized loot tables vs randomized with random stats loot. Not just re: pillars, but as a general game design choice. Depends. Are you trying to replicate the storytelling feel of a tabletop RPG, or are you trying for a roguelike / diablo-style dungeon crawl smashathon with relatively little story? More randomization gives more replay value and lessens dev time invested, but do it too much and there's no story to your character, just a big pile of numbers.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:36
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First they took away my options to tactically redeploy my characters real time during combat.. but now this? Forcing me to sit for hours at each chest reloading while I figure out the range of loose change I can find and then making sure I get that amount? Starting to regret buying this game early for $20....
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Mar 2, 2015 19:38
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Depends. Are you trying to replicate the storytelling feel of a tabletop RPG, or are you trying for a roguelike / diablo-style dungeon crawl smashathon with relatively little story? The aspect that annoys me is that random, uncommon weapon drops can lead to grind because a player really wants a particular weapon that has a very low drop rate - Dark souls' balder side sword comes to mind - then random drops can lead to a player having an unsatisfying experience killing the same enemies over and over - in dark souls the enemies respawn, in another game the player reloads. Basically if handled poorly the potential reward overrides the desire to stop an unfun task, player behavior spoiling the experience. The alternative, borderlands-esque system where weapons have random characteristics can lead to gathering loot becoming meaningless, because it happens so often that the event is no longer significant. And in such a system, large volumes of loot are a requirement because the randomised system will lead to drops completely unsuitable for a player's "build". If this reads like I prefer fixed loot placement, that's because I do. Or at the very least a tiered system, with low-value loot being randomized but powerful gear being fixed, so that you'll always find the sword of white woe in location X, and the random loot being relatively insignificant background noise. Also fixed loot can tell stories due to the environment an item is placed in.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:47
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double nine posted:
I basically agree with you and think this is what we pretty much have with this game. The only exception is in a pure or near-pure roguelike where the game is massively random and that's the point -- Nethack, Angband, arguably Diablo. Those games can be fun but I get sick of them pretty fast.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:52
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People, have some self-respect for your own worths as consumers. If any of you didn't like some minor aspect of PoE (or any game or any consumer object that you may buy), I would expect and hope that you would bitch about it and make suggestions for how to change it to your liking. I may not give an F about that minor aspect that you care about, but I drat well would not question your sanity for giving an F. That's how poo poo gets done in life, you fight for what you want, on the assumption that everyone else is doing the same in their own interest; may the one who wants it more get it.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:53
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You know what game had randomised minor loot and hand placed unique stuff? Morrowind. You know what gets held up as the gold standard for world building through item placement? Morrowind.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:54
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A Steampunk Gent posted:You know what game had randomised minor loot and hand placed unique stuff? Morrowind.
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Mar 2, 2015 19:58
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Ladolcevita posted:People, have some self-respect for your own worths as consumers. If any of you didn't like some minor aspect of PoE (or any game or any consumer object that you may buy), I would expect and hope that you would bitch about it and make suggestions for how to change it to your liking. I may not give an F about that minor aspect that you care about, but I drat well would not question your sanity for giving an F. That's how poo poo gets done in life, you fight for what you want, on the assumption that everyone else is doing the same in their own interest; may the one who wants it more get it. Fine then, I'll fight to have the experienced games designers prioritize what they would feel makes the game best, and note that tightening up the value spreads would be cool to help people not fall off the wagon into insanity. No joke if it took five minutes of dev time I'd rather get an embedded video of George Ziets teaching Chris Avellone what love is. xthetenth fucked around with this message at 20:05 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 20:00
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Ladolcevita posted:People, have some self-respect for your own worths as consumers. If any of you didn't like some minor aspect of PoE (or any game or any consumer object that you may buy), I would expect and hope that you would bitch about it and make suggestions for how to change it to your liking. I may not give an F about that minor aspect that you care about, but I drat well would not question your sanity for giving an F. That's how poo poo gets done in life, you fight for what you want, on the assumption that everyone else is doing the same in their own interest; may the one who wants it more get it. I don't want Obsidian wasting dev time hand placing loot across hundreds or thousands of containers. I don't want them wasting dev time rejiggering the loot tables to reduce the "value range" of drops. I don't want them wasting dev time completely redoing a mechanic that is clearly working as designed. The thing you want is a minor nitpick that, if the devs were daft enough to bother to address it, would take limited time away from more important aspects of the game (literally any aspect of the game is more important than a slight variation in loot drop, hth).
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Mar 2, 2015 20:02
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zedprime posted:This is extremely triggering for an optimiser, now I need to go and sell 1000 clay pots to buy a glass sword. That time I found an ebony spear in a chest, died reloaded and got a ruby instead? I had to delete and reinstall the game three times before I felt clean again. This stuff is not f*cking okay ...
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Mar 2, 2015 20:03
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zedprime posted:This is extremely triggering for an optimiser, now I need to go and sell 10 clay pots, then rest for 24h so that the merchant magically has money again times 100 to buy a glass sword. ftfy
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Mar 2, 2015 20:03
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:Beautiful screenshots though I think we've seen that location before in interviews. I love the use of High Gothic, even if it's a hundred years or so out of period. Both Caed Nua and Raedric's Hold are well over a century old. The first time Pallegina sees Caed Nua, she comments that it is a fine castle built in the "old style", and that the Republics have moved on to building fortifications to deal with cannon fire (basically star forts). rope kid fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Mar 2, 2015 |
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Mar 2, 2015 20:08
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drgnvale posted:As long as the loot is actually trash loot and there's 0 chance of getting a game changing item out of a chest, then I don't care if it's randomized or not.
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Mar 2, 2015 20:11
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rope kid posted:A few people have asked about this in various places. The transition from Late Middle Ages to Renaissance in our own world was both gradual and regional, with changes starting first in Italian republics and spreading (mostly north and west) from there. Structural changes in buildings, civilian and military, also took a while and most rulers weren't in a rush to tear down extant fortifications. Even ancient fortresses continued to be retrofitted and upgraded until they reached obsolescence in the 20th century. The great Languedoc fortress of Carcassona was built in the 3rd century CE as a Roman fortification and was a pain in the rear end of invaders for the following thousand years. If you visit it, you can see the areas that were retrofitted over time, but the Roman foundations are still visible. Treaties and shifting boundaries are actually what made the castle irrelevant. When Napoléon sent someone to take a survey of it in the late 18th/early 19th century, he found people raising chickens and stringing laundry between the two defensive walls. Yeah, when I typed that I was mis-remembering old art history classes and thinking that High Gothic came after the renaissance, when of course it was prior and I'm an idiot. Though I'm still wondering what happens if I fireball all that fancy glass. More interesting question: are other areas of the world more advanced than this colony area where the game takes place? rope kid posted:
Edit: oho!
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Mar 2, 2015 20:17
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Even though I, personally, would just keep playing the game without save scumming, I could understand people getting upset if random loot chests had a chance of being either 9 copper coins or Kelagor's Burning Sword of Death +9. But complaining over the random chance of 9 copper or 12 copper and a topaz is just baffling. This poo poo evens out of the course of normal play and a large number of containers. Obsidian doesn't need to 'fix' that to satisfy a few people's OCD any more then they need to remove giant spiders to satisfy a few peoples arachnophobia. 
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